Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

Status
Not open for further replies.

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Okay, this is literally my first post so I don't really want to seem like an ass but I saw this and had to say something:

Gambit Doesn’t Beat As Many Pokemon As You Said
Ting-Lu, Lilligant-Hisui, Torkoal, Greninja, Cinderace, Iron Valiant, Sneasler, Treads, (Tera Water Garg also wins but hey) are counted as *checked* by Kingambit instead of checks *to* it, essentially because "Kingambit can run Tera X + Coverage Move and then Sucker Punch wins (no seriously, why does the extremely niche Tera Fire mean you BEAT Torkoal)". That's not how to check something- Hard switching into +2 5-stack Supreme Overlord Kingambit and dying to Sucker doesn't mean Kingambit can switch into these pokemon at all, nor can it revenge kill, and anyway you have Vali listed here, one of the hardest Kingambit answers in the tier who might as well force Teras on the spot with CC and threatens with Moonblast anyway, not to mention niche Encore+SD sets. Not to mention status moves- Ting-Lu Whirlwind, Rotom-W/Cinderace Wisp and Rotom can also Twave... Also includable here is Dragonite who tanks with Multiscale and makes Sucker mindgames scarier with Espeed/EQ, Enamorus who lives Sucker without large boosts and deletes with Earth Power, Corviknight who doesn't exactly beat Gambit 1v1 but cant be switched into because of Body Press... that's a massive amount of mons who you counted in the wrong direction.

You’re Saying Kingambit Beats Pokemon Harder Than It Does
Tornadus-T, Mew, and Alolan Muk are not real pokemon (Granted neither are Arcanine-H or Lilli-H), Enamorus-Therian, Scream Tail, Rillaboom, and Slowking-Kanto are not particularly relevant. And even so, Scream Tail/Slowking get free Twaves, Tornadus packs Heat Wave, Alolan Muk packs Drain Punch. In terms of meta Pokemon, Pult can Flamethrower or Wisp, Amoonguss can Spore, Garg Salt Cure is painful, Wake doesn't even die to 5 Supreme Overlord sucker from full and often has sub.

Also we're not really allowed to talk about this but I will very quickly mention that any Tera restriction would nerf King- Tera Preview tells you what it's running, Tera Blast ban likely brings back Volcarona and rules out Tera Fairy, and obviously Tera ban is a hard stop.

Obviously I could explain how Kingambit can't run every Tera Type and coverage move at once but I think that's obvious enough, so I'll stop bashing one post and move on to the wider discussion. Sorry Eel for focusing so much on your post, when I started making this you were the most recent post and the thread just moved ahead at light speed after.

Kingambit Doesn't Totally Hard Counter Pult/Deng: I agree with this, but also that means the Pokemon is worse than people think? It's odd to say that because a Pokemon is *less* effective than expected, it is *more* banworthy.

Kingambit Breaks Its Checks/You Have To Bring 2-3 Gambit Checks: I also agree with this, but I feel this leaves out the fact that Kingambit has the most checks that I've ever seen in my life- people say to just throw Tusk at it, but Ting-Lu, Zamazenta, Cinderace, Valiant, Hamurott all range from "good check" to "hard counter" and are obviously high-tier Pokemon, even Moltres is getting better and is a decent answer. Good Gambit checks practically stumble into your team when you're building.

Gambit is Obscenely Bulky: Yes, but also switching in to anything sharply compromises your ability to actually sweep late-game, since you are going to get beaten by Tusk or whatever else much more reliably. Look down a list of every Pokemon in OU- the vast majority of them have something solid to pressure Gambit, and the ones that don't are basically just named Toxapex and Glowking. Even things that you would think are pretty free setup fodder can annoy Gambit (like Twave/Wisp spam) or even beat it 1v1 (like Body Press Corv). Gambit forces some switches, but it is also often in quite serious danger if it doesn't Sucker (Moth, Wake, Basculegion even tho it's very uncommon) and Sucker Punching to revenge kill is begging to get switched out on and lose all momentum.

Gambit Forces Sucker Mindgames: Yeah I can’t argue there. You can run Encore/Wisp on Pokemon, and a team that is well built ideally shouldn’t have to deal with Sucker at all and should be able to beat it with something like Valiant, but understandably this isn’t always an option.

Tera Flips Matchups: Of course, but also having to tera to have a chance at beating any of your million answers is pretty rough, especially when you have to run different teras to beat different answers. I find it a lot more engaging to play against Kingambit than something like Garganacl, where the answer can boil down to “run Covert”.

Side note, I swear facing a Gambit on the enemy team makes me play less mindlessly “Tera Water Walking Wake and win ez”. If people hate the HO influx so much, then why do they also want to ban the best revenge killer in the tier? I’m sorry because I know that sounds sarcastic, but I’m genuinely asking because I don’t understand. Someone better at Pokemon than me please explain.

In the end, I still understand why people want to ban Gambit- You have to think about and fully account for the pokemon from the teambuilding screen all the way up until the battle ends. Even with all the flaws I listed, I can understand giving King the axe if people deem it excessively painful. I just don’t believe that Gambit is unanswerable, or even that its answers are Tusk+change alone.

Although- ayevon if you can can you send the replay of that game? I’m quite curious to see how Gambit slipped through that many answers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-702966
 
I feel as if gambit is manageable, HOWEVER! Gambit is a very centralizing mon, forcing you to run a check. This gets into the “does the mon limit play enough for a ban” deal. I think that with common mons like Zama-H, Tusk, and Iron Valiant still in the tier, you end up with a check anyway. I figure most non stall (which is cheeks rn in the HO meta) runs a Tusk, Zama, or Valiant on their team. Tera does make gambit very matchup heavy which is wifely considered to be a bad thing. I think gambit is a very strong mon (kinda like ferrothorn last gen), that tera pushes over the edge for many. Put this guy in the gen8 meta with pult and grimm and gambit might even 1v1 ferro with low kick and protective pads. Insta quickban. But the power creep this gen is real. I dislike the concept of a broken checks broken meta, but if we ban a dozen more broken mons, hell ubers might feel more standard than OU. The comparison of this gen UU to last gen OU is a good one imo. That implies that this gen OU is last gen ubers. Ubers is a broken checks broken tier, where mons that are so absurdly broken are banned even from that (zacian, etc). Compare that to this OU. We have garg, valiant, tusk, and GAMBIT! But we don’t have stuff like Flutter Mane and Last Respects, which is broken enough compared to the brokenness of OU that it breaks the barrier of brokenness and is banned for being too broken for the broken (which is the standard. Imagine a world where everything is bright all the time. The brightness is normal. However, some places are so bright it hurts your eyes. There is to much light and is abnormal. Think of light as brokenness. In OU, broken is normal (like the light). But too much broken is harmful, bad, and abnormal. With all these broken mons running around, we can’t afford risking the meta further by elevating one to super broken. Look at national dex. Nearly half of the mons ranked A+ or higher are from gen nine. 4/9 is too high. Statistically, 1 of the nine should be from gen 9. You know what else? 2/3 of the mons in the S- tier and above are from gen 9. This gen is absolutely insane. Like it or not, we have to rely on broken checks broken (unless we ban tera which will probably happen before the year is out due to how many people complain about it, but i’m not supposed to talk about that in this thread.) I don’t vote in any suspects, but I think if you find a bad player’s points decent, vote DNB!

Edit: added cool anology about light
 
Last edited:
This is the worst kind of post, no offense. Your post is basically "the powercreep too crazy and we should just accept it".
No offense taken, I get where you’re coming from. I’m not really that good at the game (1600s tops), I just wanted to share my opinion on the matter. I don’t vote for suspect tests because I feel with enough grinding anyone can meet the reqs, so I leave my vote up to better players than me. I am not a qualified source on this topic. You are right, the tl;dr is kinda “powercreep bad, but we can’t do anything about it”. That’s my (probably unreliable) opinion. Disagree all you want, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there. It’s up to the people who read it, not me, to decide if my points are valid.
 
Last edited:
Okay, this is literally my first post so I don't really want to seem like an ass but I saw this and had to say something:

Gambit Doesn’t Beat As Many Pokemon As You Said
Ting-Lu, Lilligant-Hisui, Torkoal, Greninja, Cinderace, Iron Valiant, Sneasler, Treads, (Tera Water Garg also wins but hey) are counted as *checked* by Kingambit instead of checks *to* it, essentially because "Kingambit can run Tera X + Coverage Move and then Sucker Punch wins (no seriously, why does the extremely niche Tera Fire mean you BEAT Torkoal)". That's not how to check something- Hard switching into +2 5-stack Supreme Overlord Kingambit and dying to Sucker doesn't mean Kingambit can switch into these pokemon at all, nor can it revenge kill, and anyway you have Vali listed here, one of the hardest Kingambit answers in the tier who might as well force Teras on the spot with CC and threatens with Moonblast anyway, not to mention niche Encore+SD sets. Not to mention status moves- Ting-Lu Whirlwind, Rotom-W/Cinderace Wisp and Rotom can also Twave... Also includable here is Dragonite who tanks with Multiscale and makes Sucker mindgames scarier with Espeed/EQ, Enamorus who lives Sucker without large boosts and deletes with Earth Power, Corviknight who doesn't exactly beat Gambit 1v1 but cant be switched into because of Body Press... that's a massive amount of mons who you counted in the wrong direction.

You’re Saying Kingambit Beats Pokemon Harder Than It Does
Tornadus-T, Mew, and Alolan Muk are not real pokemon (Granted neither are Arcanine-H or Lilli-H), Enamorus-Therian, Scream Tail, Rillaboom, and Slowking-Kanto are not particularly relevant. And even so, Scream Tail/Slowking get free Twaves, Tornadus packs Heat Wave, Alolan Muk packs Drain Punch. In terms of meta Pokemon, Pult can Flamethrower or Wisp, Amoonguss can Spore, Garg Salt Cure is painful, Wake doesn't even die to 5 Supreme Overlord sucker from full and often has sub.

Also we're not really allowed to talk about this but I will very quickly mention that any Tera restriction would nerf King- Tera Preview tells you what it's running, Tera Blast ban likely brings back Volcarona and rules out Tera Fairy, and obviously Tera ban is a hard stop.

Obviously I could explain how Kingambit can't run every Tera Type and coverage move at once but I think that's obvious enough, so I'll stop bashing one post and move on to the wider discussion. Sorry Eel for focusing so much on your post, when I started making this you were the most recent post and the thread just moved ahead at light speed after.

Kingambit Doesn't Totally Hard Counter Pult/Deng: I agree with this, but also that means the Pokemon is worse than people think? It's odd to say that because a Pokemon is *less* effective than expected, it is *more* banworthy.

Kingambit Breaks Its Checks/You Have To Bring 2-3 Gambit Checks: I also agree with this, but I feel this leaves out the fact that Kingambit has the most checks that I've ever seen in my life- people say to just throw Tusk at it, but Ting-Lu, Zamazenta, Cinderace, Valiant, Hamurott all range from "good check" to "hard counter" and are obviously high-tier Pokemon, even Moltres is getting better and is a decent answer. Good Gambit checks practically stumble into your team when you're building.

Gambit is Obscenely Bulky: Yes, but also switching in to anything sharply compromises your ability to actually sweep late-game, since you are going to get beaten by Tusk or whatever else much more reliably. Look down a list of every Pokemon in OU- the vast majority of them have something solid to pressure Gambit, and the ones that don't are basically just named Toxapex and Glowking. Even things that you would think are pretty free setup fodder can annoy Gambit (like Twave/Wisp spam) or even beat it 1v1 (like Body Press Corv). Gambit forces some switches, but it is also often in quite serious danger if it doesn't Sucker (Moth, Wake, Basculegion even tho it's very uncommon) and Sucker Punching to revenge kill is begging to get switched out on and lose all momentum.

Gambit Forces Sucker Mindgames: Yeah I can’t argue there. You can run Encore/Wisp on Pokemon, and a team that is well built ideally shouldn’t have to deal with Sucker at all and should be able to beat it with something like Valiant, but understandably this isn’t always an option.

Tera Flips Matchups: Of course, but also having to tera to have a chance at beating any of your million answers is pretty rough, especially when you have to run different teras to beat different answers. I find it a lot more engaging to play against Kingambit than something like Garganacl, where the answer can boil down to “run Covert”.

Side note, I swear facing a Gambit on the enemy team makes me play less mindlessly “Tera Water Walking Wake and win ez”. If people hate the HO influx so much, then why do they also want to ban the best revenge killer in the tier? I’m sorry because I know that sounds sarcastic, but I’m genuinely asking because I don’t understand. Someone better at Pokemon than me please explain.

In the end, I still understand why people want to ban Gambit- You have to think about and fully account for the pokemon from the teambuilding screen all the way up until the battle ends. Even with all the flaws I listed, I can understand giving King the axe if people deem it excessively painful. I just don’t believe that Gambit is unanswerable, or even that its answers are Tusk+change alone.

Although- ayevon if you can can you send the replay of that game? I’m quite curious to see how Gambit slipped through that many answers.
I forgot to mention the concepts I'm using here.

Counter: Unless Tera Blast or at very low health, X just can't beat Y. Example: Toxapex vs Kingambit Toxapex can't do anything due to being a steel type wallbreaker.
Hard check: Is a counter but needs pristine conditions for it to work, or there's a set who would not let you switch into. Dragapult loses hard against Kingambit except when fire blast, but it demands lots of resources.
Check: Beats in a 1v1 but not necessarily if switch directly. Dragonite is an example because you indeed beat it in a 1v1 but cannot switch to its earthquakes.
Soft check: Should beat in a 1v1 but it needs to be certain sets who could turn the tables. Also you could need support or full health to check. Enamorus is a good example because specs could destroy you but you win against the other sets and it definitely cannot switch safely.
Neutral: You can't be sure who will win the interaction due to X or Y factor, and could be decided by luck (Zapdos, Heatran), 50/50s (Arcanine-H) speed ties (Azumarill, Ursaluna) or sets (Landorus-T, Yourself).

Kingambit checks A LOT of stuff, and makes sense, is incredibly bulky and has great attack. Kingambit by itself doesn't counter THAT MUCH, just pokémon who really struggle to deal serious damage to it in one way or another, because again, this mon is incredibly slow and due to Tera the classic concept of counters is kinda outdated.
Now, checking half the meta isn't necessarily a problem considering Ursaluna is fine in OU and does roughly the same destructive patterns, also with next to no real counters. The difference is that while Ursaluna a bit more of reliable checks (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Specs walking wake, Samurott-Hisui, Iron Valiant/Sneasler up to certain point, Volcanion, Basculegion, Lilligant, Meowscarada without tera, tera steel rotom-wash and Corviknight comes to mind) and most importantly, IT LACKS PRIORITY, so it usually only trades 1 for 1, which is good but not overwhelming, and the turn required to activate guts + the burn damage makes the bear quite punishable by its checks.

Meanwhile Kingambit has sucker punch to bypass the fact is slow, which coupled with the fact it can bypass its fighting weakness means it can just sweep entire teams easily or at the very least do 2 for 1, which is not something that should happen in a healthy envoriment unless forced, and Kingambit is way too good at gaining an advantage, specially when losing, and a lot of counters just become checks or even matchups due to Tera. Again, Unless you fully ban Tera Kingambit will be a problem, and I doubt tera will end up fully banned, because having only 2 reliable checks and 5 semi-reliable ones is not enough to balance a mon. Situationally there's a lot of answers, but many of them are flimsy in practice.
 
Last edited:
Kingambit is a wildly degen mon. That fact that most games devolve into a will-they-wont-they between a 5-dead sucker punch and your face is extremely silly, plus the way that this guy abuses Terra like no one else. There's sucker punch mindgames, and then there's the result of half the matches being decided by a good read on the cleaner-o-matic 9000. I think the tier would be better if it was gone, and we already have a lot of good ghost checks, so we won't be missing on much. He's on every team I have and on almost every team I've gone against. Ban.
 
I forgot to mention the concepts I'm using here.

Counter: Unless Tera Blast or at very low health, X just can't beat Y. Example: Toxapex vs Kingambit Toxapex can't do anything due to being a steel type wallbreaker.
Hard check: Is a counter but needs pristine conditions for it to work, or there's a set who would not let you switch into. Dragapult loses hard against Kingambit except when fire blast, but it demands lots of resources.
Check: Beats in a 1v1 but not necessarily if switch directly. Dragonite is an example because you indeed beat it in a 1v1 but cannot switch to its earthquakes.
Soft check: Should beat in a 1v1 but it needs to be certain sets who could turn the tables. Also you could need support or full health to check. Enamorus is a good example because specs could destroy you but you win against the other sets and it definitely cannot switch safely.
Neutral: You can't be sure who will win the interaction due to X or Y factor, and could be decided by luck (Zapdos, Yourself, Heatran), speed ties (Azumarill, Ursaluna) or end up in a double KO (Garchomp).

Kingambit checks A LOT of stuff, and makes sense, is incredibly bulky and has great attack. Kingambit by itself doesn't counter THAT MUCH, just pokémon who really struggle to beat it aka beats in a 1v1 a lot of things.
Now, checking half the meta isn't necessarily a problem considering Ursaluna is fine in OU and does roughly the same destructive patterns, also with next to no real counters. The difference is that while Ursaluna a bit more of reliable checks (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Specs walking wake, Samurott-Hisui, Iron Valiant/Sneasler up to certain point, Volcanion, Basculegion, Lilligant, Meowscarada without tera, tera steel rotom-wash and Corviknight comes to mind) and most importantly, IT LACKS PRIORITY, so it usually only trades 1 for 1, which is good but not overwhelming, and the turn required to activate guts + the burn damage makes the bear quite punishable by its checks.

Meanwhile Kingambit has sucker punch to bypass the fact is slow, which coupled with the fact it can bypass its fighting weakness means it can just sweep entire teams easily or at the very least do 2 for 1, which is not something that should happen in a healthy envoriment unless forced, and Kingambit is way too good at gaining an advantage, specially when losing, and a lot of counters just become checks or even matchups due to Tera. Again, Unless you fully ban Tera Kingambit will be a problem, and I doubt tera will end up fully banned.
The problem is, if you count every single possible set a Pokemon could run and say that because an enemy Pokemon loses to a single one of them qualifies them to be soft-checked, Iron Valiant becomes the single best pokemon in the game because there’s no pokemon that doesn’t lose to a Valiant set. (Ghold loses to SD Knock, Valiant soft checks Ghold! Moltres loses to Tera Electric CM, Valiant soft checks Moltres!) But Tera Fire Gambit and the like is not reasonable to run a lot of the time.

Also Kingambit can’t switch into much at all, you say Pult can’t do anything into it outside of specs but actually even if it doesn’t hard read you and do 80 with Flamethrower it can status you (and god knows King hates burn) or set up screens in your face. Kingambit theoretically 1v1s a lot of mons but that requires either using Tera or just outright compromising its ability to late game clean like its supposed to.

As a pure cleaner who comes in late it’s still busted but you have to manage a 5v6 early if you want King to be in a good position for it.

How do you even switch King in on anything but the most passive mons (or just choice locked enemy) other than by Teraing immediately? It seems to me that the overwhelming argument for banning King is just “I hate Sucker Punch endgames” which like, yeah okay fair enough you can ban that if you want
 
Last edited:
I may be a horrible player, but I am a gambler at heart, and Kingambit is a true gambling mon which I love to abuse.

To me, Kingambit is an extreme tera abuser who has access to multiple tera's that make sense to use (Ie. Flying, Fairy, Dark, and possible Fire/Fighting though less likely). Such Tera's could change the game if done correctly, which doesn't take much effort. Even if you knew or could guess the opposing gambit's tera typing, there's still a possibility that your opponent will play a 50/50 will it tera will it not game. This is also added by the fact that Kingambit has ANOTHER 50/50 in sucker games that can change the battle. This isn't even mentioning the fact of how absurd its attack power is with access to Supreme Overlord and Swords Dance and having a base 135 Attack stat. It's also a mon who has good natural bulk and can take some good hits.

To talk about checks I believe Eelstartega did a sufficiently good enough job at explaining.

I agree that Kingambit is an extraordinarily centralizing mon, and I also agree that the tier could be better without it (Which will also affect mons like Gholdengo and Dragapult who might get the axe as well, or at the very least examined if Kingambit does get banned). I agree that a Ban is necessary. If Kingambit does get banned, it would probably start a domino effect which I hope makes the tier more refreshing.
 
To talk about checks I believe Eelstartega did a sufficiently good enough job at explaining.

I agree that Kingambit is an extraordinarily centralizing mon, and I also agree that the tier could be better without it (Which will also affect mons like Gholdengo and Dragapult who might get the axe as well, or at the very least examined if Kingambit does get banned). I agree that a Ban is necessary. If Kingambit does get banned, it would probably start a domino effect which I hope makes the tier more refreshing.
First, Thank you.

Second, I'm really doubtful of said domino effect. There's according to my searches, only 12 mons countered/hard checked by Kingambit: Dragapult, Cresselia, both Slowkings, Toxapex, Amongus, Hatterene, Enamorus-T, Meowscarada, Scream tail, Hoopa-Unbound and Moltres-G.If you notice this you'll see something important, that A lot of Dragapult checks are countered by Kingambit.

Seriously, there's mons like Cresselia, Meowscarada, Slowking-Galar, Enamorus-T, and Moltres-Galar who could respond to Dragapult more or less well, but are too risky to bring on due to being kingambit's fodder, not to mention other classic sets who are right now too risky to use because Kingambit forcing specific roles. Also, no, Kingambit is not that great against Gholdengo because of Focus Blast. The only other risk could be Cresselia, but there's still answers for her like toxic, taunt heatran, specs Gholdengo, Hoopa-Unbound, Swords dance Baxcalibur or specially defensive Skeledirge.
 

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
Kingambit is very strange to talk about. There are a lot of working parts to this Pokemon that make it as powerful as it is. By itself, it comes packed with incredibly flexible bulk, powerful priority, and a great STAB combination. Though, its Speed tier really complicates this a lot, especially with its common weaknesses; by itself, Kingambit would likely cement itself a very solid niche on offense due to its naturally good resistance profile and great cleaning ability, but I highly doubt it would be in discussion for a suspect, much less for the best Pokemon in the tier.

However, this is not really the case as we all know. Kingambit is the personification of Tera's attributes that can make it such a powerful mechanic, but also their potential setbacks. It's for that reason I sort of view Kingambit as a poster child for Tera's functionality in the tier. Tera leverages and enables Kingambit's innate strengths by allowing it to use its natural bulk, STABs, and damage-dealing ability in a greater range of matchups without its exploitable weaknesses being as egregiously in the equation. Tera greatly emphasizes the role Kingambit plays with its tools (stats, movepool, STABs, etc) and in this regard I believe the best way to evaluate Kingambit is to ascertain if these natural tools are powerful enough in their own right to warrant banning it with Tera to leverage them. Thinking about it like this, I feel as though if you are anti-Tera, you're going to err closer on the side of Kingambit being broken with Tera, but if you're pro-Tera, then you probably won't see Kingambit as that big of a problem. Based on what I've seen across the Policy Review thread regarding Tera and those who have vocalized their opinion on Kingambit this seems roughly true.

Thinking about the fundamentals of Kingambit's kit, it's not really its trading ability that makes it an S-tier threat. The tier has its share of solid tanks that tend to take trades like Ursaluna and Gholdengo. Instead, it is powerful priority in tandem with its bulk that makes it as potent as it is, allowing it to not only force an advantage more easily, but also allowing it to outright clean. Kingambit lives and dies by Sucker Punch.

As such, having Pokemon that can respond to the move in a vacuum is the primary way by which Kingambit can be handled on more offensive structures. Encore usage is fairly common in part to Kingambit's Sucker Punch, for example, and Enamorus/Iron Valiant are very common revenge-killing options that can either force damage on Kingambit post-Tera or outright remove it. Having tools to respond to its reliance on Sucker Punch like status, the aforementioned Encore, offensive Sucker Punch resistances, and naturally physically bulky Pokemon (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Landorus-T, Dondozo, etc) generally makes it manageable to some degree for most structures that isn't particularly demanding since the range of conditions Kingambit needs fulfilled are a bit tricky to work around if you want it to truly dominate games. There are a wealth of Pokemon and moves in the tier that can check Kingambit in some way, shape, or form due to its reliance on Sucker Punch, and that's a commonality regardless of how Kingambit uses Tera. It requires your respect, but rarely will that endgame behemoth be a threat out the gate, especially without Supreme Overlord boosts. However there is an argument to be made for Kingambit being potentially oppressive in this regard. It's extremely feasible to check but because of Tera, you do need to allocate resources in-battle to account for it and its endgame potential, arguably to an extent that is unreasonable when you also have to account for Pokemon like Iron Valiant, Dragapult, or Baxcalibur that are frequently paired with it.

I personally feel as though Kingambit, while a top tier Pokemon, provides more for the tier than takes. Its bulk, initial resistance profile, and access to strong priority I view as a net positive in spite of its exacerbated strength with Tera, giving teams an easy reactive tool that is capable of tanking hits with Tera to consistently respond to highly dangerous Pokemon while being threatening in its own right. In this regard I view Kingambit as comparable to Melmetal in the sense that its bulk and revenge killing ability can consistently be a resource regardless of the matchup. I think that can be really valuable in volatile metagame landscapes, especially when the Pokemon in question requires skill, positioning, and matchup awareness to pilot to its full potential.

The metagame has a lot of room to grow and some things need to change, there is no doubt about that. However I personally believe that Kingambit isn't exactly apart of that problem even though it can be very powerful and overly commanding at times. It is, overall, a skill-based Pokemon because of its dynamic with Tera, its Speed tier, and Sucker Punch. Even if it can feel cheap sometimes it's often strong positioning and resource management beforehand that lead to that dominating position. DNB from me.
 

Baloor

Tigers Management
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
PUPL Champion
I did a ton of thinking about this and was a bit conflicted about my opinion but due to the eventual Tera 2 suspect being delayed and us getting this instead I have to approach my thinking to this test assuming we will be playing a tera metagame for the foreseeable future.

I'm going to try to get reqs this time around though the OLT schedule might make that difficult. I have the full intention of voting Ban on Kingambit if I do get the time to do them. I think awyp has a decent post where they do mention that Kingambit holds the tier together and banning it is likely to start a domino effect of bans. While technically true, this is a dangerous ideology that if we start accepting frequently, will set a incredibly negative precedent for future tiering decisions. What I'm referring to is the elusive "broken checking broken" argument. While I have voted/made arguments on the basis of broken checking broken before, specifically the SS Melmetal test and the recent Zamazenta test, there are reasons why I considered these exceptions. With Melmetal, we were at the end of the generation with a very playable tier where banning the pokemon would have caused a drastic shift which likely would require further action in the tier. In regards to Zamazenta, Zama was a formerly uber pokemon finding its place in the tier. Zamazenta provided a natural check to many top threats while being also having a ton of natural counterplay in the tier. Zamazenta exists in the tier while not being overly warping or overbearing. These two cases are unique situational instances and not exactly representative of tiering policy. The fact of the matter is, while we need to sometimes accept broken checks broken as a part of the tier, actively tiering around it is very destructive. If we did this frequently no progress to a balanced tier will ever be made because we are too scared to ban anything under the guise of "well then this gets mega broken". You are welcome to vote however you like, but actively keeping something in the tier that prevents its long term development is logically incorrect. Kingambit is something that I consider is holding the tier back from any proper long term development, The entire tier is centralized around it, whether that be in-game, building or just theory. People actively recognize this too, I have seen a TON of people say that this tier feels stale in terms of building not really having many diverse options. While incredibly centralizing pokemon have existed in the past such as gen2 snorlax or sm ubers pdon, they for one exist in tiers with a very limited selection of pokemon and for two have many positive roles within the tiers that outweigh their cons in the long run. All gambit really does for the tier is prevent a chunk of pokemon from becoming broken (which we will solve with proper tiering), while on the other hand it's a incredibly centralizing offensive force that makes endgames become the kingambit show rather than a testament of ones ability at pokemon. At the end of the day, we do not aim to actively promote pokemon this centralizing in our tiers (and we'd try to tier against it) just because it stops a couple of pokemon from being broken.

As mentioned in the previous paragraph, Kingambit is incredibly centralizing on how the game is played fundamentally. I have seen people who support Gambit in the tier go as far as to say it makes the tier more dynamic because it makes games go either way? Isn't that a little counterintuitive? I feel Gambit causes a lot of situations where the player who actively played worse can get a significant advantage just through Gambit, whether that be through a tera click / mindgame or it just being annoying because of its ability late game. On the topic of tera, kingambit is without a doubt the biggest offender of the tera controversy. This isn't just me being generally anti-tera either, ask literally any good player who the most annoying user of tera is, gambit is basically always in the conversation when it comes to why tera might be too much. Tera is 100% the breaking point for this guy whether you like it or not and its basically the posterchild of the mechanic. In conjuction with its ability, tera lets gambit become a absolute monster late game since its able to tera out of its traditional counterplay making playing around it not linear at all. Something making play not linear seems rather skillful until you consider the fact of how easy this can put a player who was losing turns ago to a favorable position by doing something that wasn't a) outplaying for position or b) gaining advantage through some kind of "tech". Gambit doesn't even really need to tera either as the threat of it teraing is enough of to have a effect on the game. Gambit is way too low risk high reward and actively takes skill out of the game while warping endgames around it entirely. You don't need to go far for proof either, watch literally most of the games in world cup or tune in a few times in the ongoing OLT qualifying phase. I really like gambit personally and do want it to stay because I'd rather keep as many toys as possible but I feel that at least in a tier with tera (I say this because tera is the tipping point for gambit and not really any other agenda), its hard to justify the existence of such a overly centralizing threat that makes the game play almost entirely around itself and not banning it. This tier has a ton of issues that need addressing and I feel keeping Gambit around completely impedes the process of addressing and fixing those problems.
 
Last edited:
I believe that Gambit should be banned.

Games involving Gambit from a low level to a high level can very easily end up just centralizing around gambit and being decided by Gambit with the rest of the game not mattering after employing an uninteractive endgame for one side. Less than optimal pokemon such as Quaquaval, Iron Hands and the Tauros-Paldea forms are required in order to have a guaranteed Kingambit answer, but even then that can be messed up with tera fairy tera blast. Even pokemon such as Dondozo can fall victim to weird Grass Knot sets.


Dealing with Kingambit is unreasonable, Considering tera as a factor, kingambit acts as an insanely bulky mon who in theory will almost never be ohkod which guarantees at least one swords dance and then sucker punch mindgames. Players are forced to employ options such as Encore, Status or Sub on pokemon just so that they dont instantly loose in lategame scenarios. It is too centralizing and single handedly shifts teambuilding to be based around just having a chance to not instantly loose. The traditional meta was to just slap a great tusk onto a team, but GT sees too much use in the early and mid games for most battles, it has to check other mons and often has to be used for hazard purposes, alongside that due to Tera it is not a reliable check.

There are no reliable checks to kingambit, Unless you are very far up with some very specific anti-gambit measures, you are never guaranteed victory vs Kingambit. The mere fact that all playstyles have to include multiple anti-gambit mons or move options just makes the tier worse. Pult and Dengo can be walked when that path needs to be walked, Kingambit in my experience needs to be banned, it is very comparable to volcarona where it is just completely unreasonable to deal with due to the plethora of options that the mon has. I do not believe that Kingambit requires enough skilled resource management or positioning in order for it to succeed, it can be used to great effect on every single archetype and its removal from the tier would allow for much better variety in teambuilding.


In my experience from playing and watching I believe that Kingambit just turns regular games into Kingambit games, they cannot be played or approached in the traditional way. I believe it is unhealthy to keep Kingambit in the tier and I would like to pose the question, what is the reliable kingambit answer? Or do you have to run multiple kingambit checks? Do you have to go out of your way to ensure that Kingambit doesn't just win bc it is the right tera/item to cheese your check? Kingambit is very comparable to Volcarona in my opinion and the tier would improve if Kingambit follows volcarona, Tera pushes it way over the edge to the point where it is unhealthy and unreasonable.
 
Kingambit is very strange to talk about. There are a lot of working parts to this Pokemon that make it as powerful as it is. By itself, it comes packed with incredibly flexible bulk, powerful priority, and a great STAB combination. Though, its Speed tier really complicates this a lot, especially with its common weaknesses; by itself, Kingambit would likely cement itself a very solid niche on offense due to its naturally good resistance profile and great cleaning ability, but I highly doubt it would be in discussion for a suspect, much less for the best Pokemon in the tier.

However, this is not really the case as we all know. Kingambit is the personification of Tera's attributes that can make it such a powerful mechanic, but also their potential setbacks. It's for that reason I sort of view Kingambit as a poster child for Tera's functionality in the tier. Tera leverages and enables Kingambit's innate strengths by allowing it to use its natural bulk, STABs, and damage-dealing ability in a greater range of matchups without its exploitable weaknesses being as egregiously in the equation. Tera greatly emphasizes the role Kingambit plays with its tools (stats, movepool, STABs, etc) and in this regard I believe the best way to evaluate Kingambit is to ascertain if these natural tools are powerful enough in their own right to warrant banning it with Tera to leverage them. Thinking about it like this, I feel as though if you are anti-Tera, you're going to err closer on the side of Kingambit being broken with Tera, but if you're pro-Tera, then you probably won't see Kingambit as that big of a problem. Based on what I've seen across the Policy Review thread regarding Tera and those who have vocalized their opinion on Kingambit this seems roughly true.

Thinking about the fundamentals of Kingambit's kit, it's not really its trading ability that makes it an S-tier threat. The tier has its share of solid tanks that tend to take trades like Ursaluna and Gholdengo. Instead, it is powerful priority in tandem with its bulk that makes it as potent as it is, allowing it to not only force an advantage more easily, but also allowing it to outright clean. Kingambit lives and dies by Sucker Punch.

As such, having Pokemon that can respond to the move in a vacuum is the primary way by which Kingambit can be handled on more offensive structures. Encore usage is fairly common in part to Kingambit's Sucker Punch, for example, and Enamorus/Iron Valiant are very common revenge-killing options that can either force damage on Kingambit post-Tera or outright remove it. Having tools to respond to its reliance on Sucker Punch like status, the aforementioned Encore, offensive Sucker Punch resistances, and naturally physically bulky Pokemon (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Landorus-T, Dondozo, etc) generally makes it manageable to some degree for most structures that isn't particularly demanding since the range of conditions Kingambit needs fulfilled are a bit tricky to work around if you want it to truly dominate games. There are a wealth of Pokemon and moves in the tier that can check Kingambit in some way, shape, or form due to its reliance on Sucker Punch, and that's a commonality regardless of how Kingambit uses Tera. It requires your respect, but rarely will that endgame behemoth be a threat out the gate, especially without Supreme Overlord boosts. However there is an argument to be made for Kingambit being potentially oppressive in this regard. It's extremely feasible to check but because of Tera, you do need to allocate resources in-battle to account for it and its endgame potential, arguably to an extent that is unreasonable when you also have to account for Pokemon like Iron Valiant, Dragapult, or Baxcalibur that are frequently paired with it.

I personally feel as though Kingambit, while a top tier Pokemon, provides more for the tier than takes. Its bulk, initial resistance profile, and access to strong priority I view as a net positive in spite of its exacerbated strength with Tera, giving teams an easy reactive tool that is capable of tanking hits with Tera to consistently respond to highly dangerous Pokemon while being threatening in its own right. In this regard I view Kingambit as comparable to Melmetal in the sense that its bulk and revenge killing ability can consistently be a resource regardless of the matchup. I think that can be really valuable in volatile metagame landscapes, especially when the Pokemon in question requires skill, positioning, and matchup awareness to pilot to its full potential.

The metagame has a lot of room to grow and some things need to change, there is no doubt about that. However I personally believe that Kingambit isn't exactly apart of that problem even though it can be very powerful and overly commanding at times. It is, overall, a skill-based Pokemon because of its dynamic with Tera, its Speed tier, and Sucker Punch. Even if it can feel cheap sometimes it's often strong positioning and resource management beforehand that lead to that dominating position. DNB from me.
It's always interesting to hear council members thoughts so if you don't mind I have a few questions. If not Kingambit then what? Just judging by the survey results it seems that people view the current metagame as a whole not only uncompetitive, but just not that enjoyable. Is this just a vocal minority, or is it truly indicative of a problem within the tier? If there is a problem within the tier, and it's not Kingambit, then what is the problem? Is it Tera? If so then why not a Tera suspect first? Is it another Pokemon that is the true problem? If so what Pokemon, and why not action on it first? I get that banning Kingambit from the tier is a scary prospect since it potentially opens up a can of problems, but it seems like there needs to be a starting point for the tier and Kingambit seems like the perfect starting point. Even you yourself admit that Kingambit is the poster child of everything strong/wrong about Tera. Idk, it seems like Kingambit is this gross old Band-Aid we've been playing with for close to a year, and people are afraid of ripping it off. So once again, if not Kingambit then what?
 
Last edited:
Kingambit is very strange to talk about. There are a lot of working parts to this Pokemon that make it as powerful as it is. By itself, it comes packed with incredibly flexible bulk, powerful priority, and a great STAB combination. Though, its Speed tier really complicates this a lot, especially with its common weaknesses; by itself, Kingambit would likely cement itself a very solid niche on offense due to its naturally good resistance profile and great cleaning ability, but I highly doubt it would be in discussion for a suspect, much less for the best Pokemon in the tier.

However, this is not really the case as we all know. Kingambit is the personification of Tera's attributes that can make it such a powerful mechanic, but also their potential setbacks. It's for that reason I sort of view Kingambit as a poster child for Tera's functionality in the tier. Tera leverages and enables Kingambit's innate strengths by allowing it to use its natural bulk, STABs, and damage-dealing ability in a greater range of matchups without its exploitable weaknesses being as egregiously in the equation. Tera greatly emphasizes the role Kingambit plays with its tools (stats, movepool, STABs, etc) and in this regard I believe the best way to evaluate Kingambit is to ascertain if these natural tools are powerful enough in their own right to warrant banning it with Tera to leverage them. Thinking about it like this, I feel as though if you are anti-Tera, you're going to err closer on the side of Kingambit being broken with Tera, but if you're pro-Tera, then you probably won't see Kingambit as that big of a problem. Based on what I've seen across the Policy Review thread regarding Tera and those who have vocalized their opinion on Kingambit this seems roughly true.

Thinking about the fundamentals of Kingambit's kit, it's not really its trading ability that makes it an S-tier threat. The tier has its share of solid tanks that tend to take trades like Ursaluna and Gholdengo. Instead, it is powerful priority in tandem with its bulk that makes it as potent as it is, allowing it to not only force an advantage more easily, but also allowing it to outright clean. Kingambit lives and dies by Sucker Punch.

As such, having Pokemon that can respond to the move in a vacuum is the primary way by which Kingambit can be handled on more offensive structures. Encore usage is fairly common in part to Kingambit's Sucker Punch, for example, and Enamorus/Iron Valiant are very common revenge-killing options that can either force damage on Kingambit post-Tera or outright remove it. Having tools to respond to its reliance on Sucker Punch like status, the aforementioned Encore, offensive Sucker Punch resistances, and naturally physically bulky Pokemon (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Landorus-T, Dondozo, etc) generally makes it manageable to some degree for most structures that isn't particularly demanding since the range of conditions Kingambit needs fulfilled are a bit tricky to work around if you want it to truly dominate games. There are a wealth of Pokemon and moves in the tier that can check Kingambit in some way, shape, or form due to its reliance on Sucker Punch, and that's a commonality regardless of how Kingambit uses Tera. It requires your respect, but rarely will that endgame behemoth be a threat out the gate, especially without Supreme Overlord boosts. However there is an argument to be made for Kingambit being potentially oppressive in this regard. It's extremely feasible to check but because of Tera, you do need to allocate resources in-battle to account for it and its endgame potential, arguably to an extent that is unreasonable when you also have to account for Pokemon like Iron Valiant, Dragapult, or Baxcalibur that are frequently paired with it.

I personally feel as though Kingambit, while a top tier Pokemon, provides more for the tier than takes. Its bulk, initial resistance profile, and access to strong priority I view as a net positive in spite of its exacerbated strength with Tera, giving teams an easy reactive tool that is capable of tanking hits with Tera to consistently respond to highly dangerous Pokemon while being threatening in its own right. In this regard I view Kingambit as comparable to Melmetal in the sense that its bulk and revenge killing ability can consistently be a resource regardless of the matchup. I think that can be really valuable in volatile metagame landscapes, especially when the Pokemon in question requires skill, positioning, and matchup awareness to pilot to its full potential.

The metagame has a lot of room to grow and some things need to change, there is no doubt about that. However I personally believe that Kingambit isn't exactly apart of that problem even though it can be very powerful and overly commanding at times. It is, overall, a skill-based Pokemon because of its dynamic with Tera, its Speed tier, and Sucker Punch. Even if it can feel cheap sometimes it's often strong positioning and resource management beforehand that lead to that dominating position. DNB from me.
I'm literally seen as super pro-Tera and I want Kingambit banned, and anyone pro-Tera should. Because Kingambit is a Pokemon that gets so buffed by Tera that it is truly exclusive.

You keep Tera and lose Kingambit, or you leave Tera and take Kingambit back. This is mutually exclusive. Pro-Tera should acknowledge that Kingambit is a Pokemon that is in a prime spot to abuse Tera, with immense natural bulk, a free Choice Band boost at endgame off of that massive attack stat, priority and all the tools it needs to lead 50/50s, including Tera Blast.

And this is not about what will be done about Tera, no restriction to nerf Kingambit in the future, what should be done?

The "skill" argument is so funny because we only got there after months where the entire metagame has had to check Kingambit. People running moves on things like even Glowking trying to punish a free Kingambit switch-in, things like Moltres going PhysDef even when that's frankly mid outside of fishing for Burn.

Something to note is this tier has quite a few physical Attackers, not really. Some common Iron Valiant sets, Kingambit, Sneasler, Roaring Moon, Baxcalibur, Ursaluna, Samurott-Hisui technically, Azumarill exists I guess,

And yet, almost all the prep is specifically for Kingambit, and most of the ways people try to check "Physical Attackers" is specifically actually just, Kingambit. Will-O-Wisp is a good move of course, but the Pokemon running it don't exactly do a good job of checking the other Physical Attackers. Baxcalibur clicks Dragon Dance and outspeeds Cinderace, plus the obvious ability, Roaring Moon as well, Ursaluna is already burned, Unburden Sneasler (though that is falling off IIRC), and Samurott-Hisui is probably dead by midgame anyways.

But Will-O-Wisp is suddenly like an incredible move just because it can punish Non-Tera Fire Kingambit specifically because it needs Sucker Punch, and otherwise it really doesn't do that much else in the tier currently.

Kingambit 50/50s are not skillful and if they ever were, they stopped after people did better and better at optimizing it for Kingambit's favor. For Leftovers sets, Kingambit is gaining recovery on that amazing bulk for every turn it is "losing" a 50/50, and therefore might just live your attack anyways.

Since when has the skill we want to provide in tournaments been Sucker Punch match-ups rather than positioning around the opponent? Kingambit helps unskillful players (like me) win because if I'm losing, I can just fish some chip on the Great Tusk, and unless they have Encore Scream Tail or some shit, odds are I'm winning that game.

Some here have implied you are playing "5-6" with Kingambit and that makes it more skillful, and like, no? You could technically say that for any sweeper, but Kingambit has pretty good longevity with Leftovers and can take several attacks in the midgame.

A Life Orb Blaziken has one shot at a sweep because it will die to its own fucking recoil, a Kingambit team can use it in the midgame and then still decide to use it later when their gameplan has gone south, so they have another: Kingambit

Kingambit is already a good Pokemon without the sweeping potential, it's also just a free easy-clap wincon in the builder. You can aim to win with another plan, and still have your Plan B that is just as effective.

If people just suck, then why does Kingambit still sweep (good teams) in tournament all the time?

"It's hard to make Kingambit dominate"

It doesn't need to because unlike what you said, it doesn't need Sucker Punch to be a good Pokemon. It needs that to be able to be a second free gameplan in the midgame when you are already losing.

The fact that you can describe so much being used specifically to punish one single Pokemon should show why the Pokemon is bad for the tier.

For a playerbase that hates Covert Cloak on one single Pokemon to destroy Garganacl, we certainly are accepting a lot of otherwise sub-optimal team choices in order to check one Pokemon.

Now let's see some other cases of similarly high usage Pokemon:

-Great Tusk is already naturally checked by any half decent team, and sometimes people run lures because of the hazard metagame, not because "Great Tusk is so hard to deal with otherwise!" Preventing Spin with Leaf Storm Lead Meowscarada or Energy Ball on Glimmora, Hydro Pump on Samurott-Hisui is not an issue, and is not unhealthy, these Pokemon are meant to win the hazard metagame, and luring one of the only forms of removal makes sense.

-Landorus T in most gens mostly has few changes on Pokemon, because most teams can, again, already naturally beat it. It's not good because it can blank/sweep a game easily, it's good because it can fit on basically anything and support its team until it dies, which it is expected to generally, especially in metas like Gen 8. Sometimes some Pokemon run HP Ice to 2HKO it on Pokemon that normally wouldn't, but that isn't because otherwise Lando-T is a dominating force, it's because it can be annoying; I find this to be entirely acceptable.

-Clefable is a Pokemon that gave many headaches in various metagames, but was easy to check in most of them, it was just annoying to pivot it. Clefable had to run moves to not instantly die to any Steel-Type, rather than the contrary, and played as a Support.

By adding to the tier I hope you do not mean an insane sweeper that requires three plus checks. And if your opinion is that the metagame will bs worse because Ghosts or some shit, I made a relatively successful counter-argument in the last page of the thread.

Good day.
 
Kingambit is very strange to talk about. There are a lot of working parts to this Pokemon that make it as powerful as it is. By itself, it comes packed with incredibly flexible bulk, powerful priority, and a great STAB combination. Though, its Speed tier really complicates this a lot, especially with its common weaknesses; by itself, Kingambit would likely cement itself a very solid niche on offense due to its naturally good resistance profile and great cleaning ability, but I highly doubt it would be in discussion for a suspect, much less for the best Pokemon in the tier.

However, this is not really the case as we all know. Kingambit is the personification of Tera's attributes that can make it such a powerful mechanic, but also their potential setbacks. It's for that reason I sort of view Kingambit as a poster child for Tera's functionality in the tier. Tera leverages and enables Kingambit's innate strengths by allowing it to use its natural bulk, STABs, and damage-dealing ability in a greater range of matchups without its exploitable weaknesses being as egregiously in the equation. Tera greatly emphasizes the role Kingambit plays with its tools (stats, movepool, STABs, etc) and in this regard I believe the best way to evaluate Kingambit is to ascertain if these natural tools are powerful enough in their own right to warrant banning it with Tera to leverage them. Thinking about it like this, I feel as though if you are anti-Tera, you're going to err closer on the side of Kingambit being broken with Tera, but if you're pro-Tera, then you probably won't see Kingambit as that big of a problem. Based on what I've seen across the Policy Review thread regarding Tera and those who have vocalized their opinion on Kingambit this seems roughly true.

Thinking about the fundamentals of Kingambit's kit, it's not really its trading ability that makes it an S-tier threat. The tier has its share of solid tanks that tend to take trades like Ursaluna and Gholdengo. Instead, it is powerful priority in tandem with its bulk that makes it as potent as it is, allowing it to not only force an advantage more easily, but also allowing it to outright clean. Kingambit lives and dies by Sucker Punch.

As such, having Pokemon that can respond to the move in a vacuum is the primary way by which Kingambit can be handled on more offensive structures. Encore usage is fairly common in part to Kingambit's Sucker Punch, for example, and Enamorus/Iron Valiant are very common revenge-killing options that can either force damage on Kingambit post-Tera or outright remove it. Having tools to respond to its reliance on Sucker Punch like status, the aforementioned Encore, offensive Sucker Punch resistances, and naturally physically bulky Pokemon (Great Tusk, Zamazenta, Landorus-T, Dondozo, etc) generally makes it manageable to some degree for most structures that isn't particularly demanding since the range of conditions Kingambit needs fulfilled are a bit tricky to work around if you want it to truly dominate games. There are a wealth of Pokemon and moves in the tier that can check Kingambit in some way, shape, or form due to its reliance on Sucker Punch, and that's a commonality regardless of how Kingambit uses Tera. It requires your respect, but rarely will that endgame behemoth be a threat out the gate, especially without Supreme Overlord boosts. However there is an argument to be made for Kingambit being potentially oppressive in this regard. It's extremely feasible to check but because of Tera, you do need to allocate resources in-battle to account for it and its endgame potential, arguably to an extent that is unreasonable when you also have to account for Pokemon like Iron Valiant, Dragapult, or Baxcalibur that are frequently paired with it.

I personally feel as though Kingambit, while a top tier Pokemon, provides more for the tier than takes. Its bulk, initial resistance profile, and access to strong priority I view as a net positive in spite of its exacerbated strength with Tera, giving teams an easy reactive tool that is capable of tanking hits with Tera to consistently respond to highly dangerous Pokemon while being threatening in its own right. In this regard I view Kingambit as comparable to Melmetal in the sense that its bulk and revenge killing ability can consistently be a resource regardless of the matchup. I think that can be really valuable in volatile metagame landscapes, especially when the Pokemon in question requires skill, positioning, and matchup awareness to pilot to its full potential.

The metagame has a lot of room to grow and some things need to change, there is no doubt about that. However I personally believe that Kingambit isn't exactly apart of that problem even though it can be very powerful and overly commanding at times. It is, overall, a skill-based Pokemon because of its dynamic with Tera, its Speed tier, and Sucker Punch. Even if it can feel cheap sometimes it's often strong positioning and resource management beforehand that lead to that dominating position. DNB from me.
Yeah, I think you hit it right on the head. IMO Gambit exerts the best & worst aspects of Tera. Defensively, it lets it handle key threats like Baxcalibur, though not without its drawbacks, but offensively, it lets it completely circumvent MUs vs Zamazenta, Tusks, etc. "General" forms of counterplay like Wisp, Encode, Spikes, Sub, Rocky Helmet, Trick, etc. seem to work well vs it, though it has ways to circumvent each. Lando-T's intimidate is a big limiter to endgame gambit too.

It is a centralizing force, possibly overly so, but it's powerful priority is very much necessary imo to keep various playstyles and Pokemon in check + punish poor Tera usage (best example would be vs Urshifu-RS going Tera Water when that was legal). Most importantly, it limits the versatility of Pokemon like Dragapult & Gholdengo, which both run sets that are tailor made to cripple Gambit like Double Status & Scarf, respectively, as opposed to more generally dangerous sets.

Ironically, it's two best checks are also top two in usage: Tusk & opposing Gambit, though Gambit can muscle past both if they don't have some external support. Gholdengo + Dragapult are two better pieces to have endgame vs it IMO because Trick and Wisp both drastically limit its options and ability to perform 50/50s.

I like the comparison to Melmetal, but Gambit imo is way better. I could never make a good Melmetal Tean in gen 8 because I found it to be somewhat prediction reliant, but that's not the case w/ Gambit at all. Supreme Overlord + SD makes its threat level way higher, it has strong Dark STAB to give it extremely good neutral coverage unlike Melmetal, which struggled w/ 4MSS imo, and it has Sucker Punch to limit chip from faster mons. Gambit is like an amalgamation of Kartana and Melmetal since it has some key traits from both.
 

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
If not Kingambit then what?
And this is not about what will be done about Tera, no restriction to nerf Kingambit in the future, what should be done?
I won't elaborate too much on this for the sake of not derailing the thread since this is about Kingambit, but I personally feel as though the tier would positively benefit from a Tera Blast removal, freeing Volcarona after the fact, and then removing Baxcalibur and/or Iron Valiant. The tl;dr of this is that you would remove quite a bit of the centralization involved with strong attackers that will force progress with their versatility/raw strength, while also ensuring that Pokemon can't use Tera Blast as a way to force progress in a way that is far more demanding to play around.

The "skill" argument is so funny because we only got there after months where the entire metagame has had to check Kingambit. People running moves on things like even Glowking trying to punish a free Kingambit switch-in, things like Moltres going PhysDef even when that's frankly mid outside of fishing for Burn.
I wouldn't really call it funny because, believe it or not, it definitely is a real thing simply because of the prominence of its Speed tier and its common weaknesses pre-Tera. I'm not discrediting the fact that Kingambit is a top user of Tera because it most certainly is, and it has the potential to be extremely powerful to a point of wiping games. But what proactive user of Tera isn't capable of this to some extent? If you're pro-Tera I would imagine you are fairly okay with how a well-placed Tera can affect the tide of the match since it legitimately can on a fundamental level depending on how you've managed your resources and how you've scouted information leading up to an inevitable Tera turn. The same can be said for Enamorus, Sneasler, Dragapult, Baxcalibur, Garganacl, Zamazenta; the list goes on and on.

And yet, almost all the prep is specifically for Kingambit, and most of the ways people try to check "Physical Attackers" is specifically actually just, Kingambit. Will-O-Wisp is a good move of course, but the Pokemon running it don't exactly do a good job of checking the other Physical Attackers. Baxcalibur clicks Dragon Dance and outspeeds Cinderace, plus the obvious ability, Roaring Moon as well, Ursaluna is already burned, Unburden Sneasler (though that is falling off IIRC), and Samurott-Hisui is probably dead by midgame anyways.

For a playerbase that hates Covert Cloak on one single Pokemon to destroy Garganacl, we certainly are accepting a lot of otherwise sub-optimal team choices in order to check one Pokemon.
Kingambit most certainly demands your respect in building and it does heavily influence teambuilding decisions simply because of its strength, and I am not saying it doesn't. However to say that this kind of prep is only for Kingambit is really shortsighted considering its utility outside of Kingambit.

Considering moves like Encore, for example, Encore takes advantage of moves that are passive by nature and creates free openings to set up. Even without Kingambit you can easily take advantage of this to stuff Pokemon like the aforementioned Baxcalibur, and due to Encore's asinine distribution this generation I've found that it's not only fairly easy to fit, but actively beneficial for a lot of offensively inclined teams that appreciate having more setup opportunities to force damage, trades, or sweeps.

Will-O-Wisp specifically is not exactly used solely as a deterrent for these physical attackers and if anything is used quite frequently as a proactive tool. The threat of burn is devastating even for Pokemon that aren't all that pressed to constantly exert pressure. Having your Great Tusk or Ting-Lu burnt genuinely sucks as they lose a lot of the natural firepower that demands your respect, and oftentimes these are Pokemon that would otherwise want to switch into Cinderace (for example). It's so strong on Cinderace specifically because its Speed tier and natural strength force switch-ins that are really debilitated by the status, and then you have Pokemon like Heatran, Moltres, or Rotom-W that force switches with their raw bulk and power instead which spread burn onto similar targets. You're not going to be using Will-O-Wisp solely as a way to stop sweepers unless your user is actively healthy and/or you have Tera to leverage your turn. If your only counterplay is to use status to stop these types of Pokemon you're doomed anyway.

On top of this, Will-O-Wisp is also not the only status! We've seen a lot of Thunder Wave usage as of late too, especially considering the best users are Pokemon that can either use immunities for momentum or outright threaten them. Zapdos is a really popular spreader between Static, Discharge, and Thunder Wave that also packs momentum/STAB Hurricane to respond to Ting-Lu and Great Tusk respectively, and there are also users like Galarian Slowking, Rotom-W (again. this runs dual status sometimes too tbh), and Gholdengo that are excellent at finding opportunities to spread the status or use the threat of status as a way to build momentum or force damage. Thunder Wave has utility even into slower targets (such as Kingambit) because of full paralysis, which becomes increasingly more probable to deal with as you play out your turns with the victim Pokemon.

All of this is to say that status debilitates Kingambit, yes, but the use of status is far from being solely applicable to Kingambit and only used for Kingambit. To me it's a fairly natural adaptation because of how blatantly useful it is to have to leverage progress and open up your own win-conditions. This may include Kingambit but I don't at all feel Kingambit is the sole proprietor for use of status or tools like Encore.

Kingambit 50/50s are not skillful and if they ever were, they stopped after people did better and better at optimizing it for Kingambit's favor. For Leftovers sets, Kingambit is gaining recovery on that amazing bulk for every turn it is "losing" a 50/50, and therefore might just live your attack anyways.

Since when has the skill we want to provide in tournaments been Sucker Punch match-ups rather than positioning around the opponent? Kingambit helps unskillful players (like me) win because if I'm losing, I can just fish some chip on the Great Tusk, and unless they have Encore Scream Tail or some shit, odds are I'm winning that game.
This may be controversial, but I honestly feel the whole 50/50 argument around Sucker Punch is kind of overblown. Yes, in some situations Sucker Punch does force some guessing games and I do think this has the potential to be unhealthy in certain matchups. However the inherent unpredictability involved with Sucker Punch is not black and white simply because of Tera and its raw bulk. Smogon's philosophy claims that factors that players can't entirely control is apart of the game on a fundamental level and because of that, probability management is a skill that is naturally apart of succeeding in competitive Pokemon. If taking that chance is too debilitating and you need to remove a certain Pokemon, you can instead make the choice to use your Tera and either attack or set up instead, which does require added resources but ensures that you are not gambling the game to Sucker Punch when you need to make progress in some way, shape, or form. In practice this often comes to play simply because of the unreliability of Sucker Punch, and to me this is probability management 101 even if it is not conventional.

Also, the thing about Sucker Punch is quite literally... you can keep clicking it? Like, if there's no Substitute, status, or Encore there is no real reason not to use it over and over until it works, and if you are facing these things then you're likely going to be losing that 1v1 anyway. If we choose to think of it as a truly random situation, the odds of Sucker Punch not succeeding even once in this situation is 1/256, and if you want to weigh in "my PP is low, I feel more pressed to use another attack", including the human element of pretending to think about it by not clicking for 20 seconds or so can actually make a difference.

The argument I believe pro-ban on Kingambit should be focusing more on is if the Sucker Punch endgame is achievable to a point that is unhealthy for the tier as opposed to the dynamic of Sucker Punch itself. Can you force enough damage on x or y Sucker Punch answer to remove it with Sucker Punch later? If so, how? Do you need to sacrifice your Tera or your HP in order to force that damage? Will doing this compromise the reliability of that endgame? To me, not really. Like I said, Supreme Overlord matters a lot in its damage output, and especially considering that Dark-type resists and solid Physical walls are extremely common-place, it most certainly needs conditions to be filled before this endgame is possible. To me that most certainly is skill based, even if that seems laughable to you.

It doesn't need to because unlike what you said, it doesn't need Sucker Punch to be a good Pokemon. It needs that to be able to be a second free gameplan in the midgame when you are already losing.
I literally never said this. If you read my post again, I said:

"Instead, it is powerful priority in tandem with its bulk that makes it as potent as it is, allowing it to not only force an advantage more easily, but also allowing it to outright clean."

Yes, Sucker Punch is an extremely huge facet behind what makes Kingambit so powerful, but I said it's the whole package of Kingambit, not just Sucker Punch. Its bulk matters tremendously in practice and I do not intend to downplay this whatsoever; in fact this is actually a lot of why I think it's a good influence on the tier. I apologize if this seemed very overly focused on Sucker Punch, but to say my argument in favor of its health revolves around Sucker Punch is really reductionist.

If anybody wishes for me to elaborate on anything else or clarify any of my arguments, lmk.
 
Jesus christ the suspects are getting a little bit out of hand at this point it seems banning for banning sake.

Kingambit is crazy strong and can siglehandlely turn around games with a little bit of prediction, but there are many possible answers to it. Yes it can be gamechaging but assuming you have some answer it shouldnt be too hard to deal with it...
 
Jesus christ the suspects are getting a little bit out of hand at this point it seems banning for banning sake.

Kingambit is crazy strong and can siglehandlely turn around games with a little bit of prediction, but there are many possible answers to it. Yes it can be gamechaging but assuming you have some answer it shouldnt be too hard to deal with it...
It's not "banning for banning sake," Kingambit received a high enough score on the tiering survey to warrant a suspect test. Not only that, but the metagame as a whole received a poor score which indicates that not only do people want change, but Kingambit might be the cause of OU's problems. It's not like Kingambit got quickbanned, and it's not even guaranteed to get banned so what are you complaining about?

It's not as easy as having "some answer" you need multiple answers to Kingambit due to Tera. It's why so many teams right now are packing Will-o-Wisp, and one or two dark resists. The metagame is 100% warped around Kingambit, and me personally doesn't think that is a healthy thing.
 
not to sound like an echo chamber but imo there’s plenty of checks in the meta such as valiant, tusk, corv, sneasler, cinderace etc.

even though gambit is a centralising part of the meta, it also intern checks dragapult and gholdengo, while some battles can become prediction reliant on sucker punch, i still firmly believe it’s a healthy part of the meta. terastilisation can turn it into a nightmare to deal with but even then it’s manageable, (mind you we’ve had a tera suspect test and the majority player base has agreed on keeping it)
 
Last edited:
not to sound like an echo chamber but imo there’s plenty of checks in the meta such as valiant, tusk, corv, sneasler, cinderace etc.

even though gambit is a centralising part of the meta, it also intern checks dragapult and gholdengo, while some battles can become prediction reliant on sucker punch, i still firmly believe it’s a healthy part of the meta. terastilisation can turn it into a nightmare to deal with but even then it’s manageable, (mind you we’ve had TWO tera suspect tests and both times the majority player base has agreed on keeping it)
1.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 291-342 (96.6 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 325-384 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Kingambit can still Tera.

(50/50s Iron Head/Kowtow based on if you Tera Fighting.)

I assume you moreso mean Iron Defense, which to consistently check:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. +2 248 HP / 56+ Def Tera Fighting Corviknight: 183-216 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep your Corviknight at high HP, plus it has to come in after a death because it is not safe otherwise. This is assuming Iron Defense, and not some Tera Blast such as Tera Fairy on the Tera Fighting.

Cinderace can Will-O-Wisp unless Tera Fire, it is a good check.

Valiant wins unless Tera, which it will Tera.

You have to have so many checks because Tera, even if I like it, absolutely makes it so checking this Pokemon is very hard. You need a lot.

2. Gholdengo and Dragapult are already checked plenty without Kingambit, and they will not became a problem. Kingambit makes teambuilding harder than it makes it easier, and makes the meta worse.

3. We have only had one Tera Suspect. We have had two Tera Discussions.

Even if we had two Tera Suspects, Tera not being restricted is more reason to act on a symptom, rather than just let it go.
 
So I mentioned earlier that Gambit's strong priority is pretty necessary in the tier currently, but looking back at that point, I am curious how true that is actually.

One of the main reasons that Gambit is so useful is that its priority is strong by default due to the passive boost from Supreme Overlord, which is the main reason it can afford to run so many different Tera types like Fairy, Flying, Ghost, etc. However, with Terastalization thrown in the mix, OU's line-up of strong priority users should theoretically be much larger than prior generations. I think Gambit is typically the go-to option for strong priority because it doesn't require Tera to be strong.

Tera Normal Dragonite is a pretty classic strong priority user. Its priority is more reliable than Gambit, has Multiscale to live hits from Sun / Rain, making it a fine option vs these playstyles. Tera Dark Meowscarada and Samurott are both really strong picks too that I've had some success with in the past & have really strong, punishing secondary Dark moves they can use with Black Glasses to jack up their threat level even more. I haven't used Scizor this gen, but I have seen it be quite effective vs some key mons like Iron Valiant and Enamorus, espicially with Tera Steel. I was clowning on Bisharp before, and TBH, I don't think it will be good, but 70 BP STAB priority off 125 Attack is still some of the strongest priority in the tier (esp compared to Meowscarada / Samurott) being forced to run Tera Dark to make up for its poor damage output should theoretically make it the "balanced" version of Kingambit that we all want, though in practice, I think it will be pretty terrible due to being weaker and worn down faster than Gambit.

I'm curious on what other's thoughts on this dilemma are. Will a Gambit ban actually result in more options opening up for strong priority users or naw?
 
1.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 291-342 (96.6 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 325-384 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Kingambit can still Tera.

(50/50s Iron Head/Kowtow based on if you Tera Fighting.)

I assume you moreso mean Iron Defense, which to consistently check:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. +2 248 HP / 56+ Def Tera Fighting Corviknight: 183-216 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep your Corviknight at high HP, plus it has to come in after a death because it is not safe otherwise. This is assuming Iron Defense, and not some Tera Blast such as Tera Fairy on the Tera Fighting.

Cinderace can Will-O-Wisp unless Tera Fire, it is a good check.

Valiant wins unless Tera, which it will Tera.

You have to have so many checks because Tera, even if I like it, absolutely makes it so checking this Pokemon is very hard. You need a lot.

2. Gholdengo and Dragapult are already checked plenty without Kingambit, and they will not became a problem. Kingambit makes teambuilding harder than it makes it easier, and makes the meta worse.

3. We have only had one Tera Suspect. We have had two Tera Discussions.
soz didn’t read the thread through didn’t know we had only 1 not 2

most of the mons i listed are decent checks but they also stand out on their own and are used regardless of gambit, for example i wouldnt say the cinderace usage is high solely because of gambit, it has many other roles such as acting as a defensive pivot, and court changing hazards

while pult and gholdengo don’t seem too threatening now they can be if gambit gets banned, specially defensive heatran for example can’t repeatedly keep switching into shadow ball and draco meteor
 
Not a fan of the “it’s possible to check this” argument.

Of course it’s possible to check kingambit

just like it’s possible to check urshifu, Volcarona, eleki and magearna.

the issue is that kingambit is consistent on breaking through checks, and gets more advantageous as a game progresses.

And what makes it the most problematic, is that you can’t check it with traditional methods, due to it being the best example of using Tera to break past checks.

so this means you need a bare minimum of 3 checks on every team, and you have to plan the game flow on egg shells.

gambit was suppressed a lot before the urshifu ban, I think if gambit is gonna be healthy in OU, we need other checks like urshifu in Ou

-

ausma raised a very interesting point about valiant, and baxcalibur. Interestingly, it seems that the argument there is that they are too versatile.

it definitely seems some people skew towards “versatility is OP” versus “consistency is OP”

valiant being versatile comes at the price of consistency. Kingambit isn’t held back by this flaw. Baxcalibur is an interesting one, as it’s basically the bulky breaker that ursaluna wanted to be, and can run everything from SD to DD to choice.

kingambit is too consistent, it doesn’t need versatility. It just needs 3 moves and a flex slot. The fact that kingambit is this predictable and still this warping is what bothers me. Like you know exactly what it’s gonna do, you just might not know the Tera type or the flex move, and this is what puts it over the edge.

Kingambit is not “matchup dependent” like valiant, Volcarona, and even urshifu!

This means, you can’t “sack” like you sack your glowking against SD valiant, before revenging it with your 60% azumaril, because the valiant isn’t packing coverage. <that’s matchup reliance, kingambit isnt as limited by its matchups.

You don’t get this luxury of sacking, but then revenging when dealing with kingambit, you often have to throw 2-3 bodies at it in the end game. It’s kinda impossible to matchup well against gambit, unless of course, your entire team is designed around

and It’s no surprise that fighting types are so popular, the most common “surprise” Tera’s are fairy/fighting on Pokémon’s that want to resist sucker punch, example fighting/fairy type gholdengo, baxcalibur, iron moth, dragapult.

encore is popular for a range of reasons, but we know the main reason.

sub scouting was always a thing, but we know why sub scouting is prevalent on Pokémon’s like iron moth and bax

people might not notice the gambit problem when they’re running great checks like valiant, until they MU in a situation that just shows how ridiculous gambit can get.

example: you’re running valiant and having fun smoking gambit after gambit, you get to high ELO against experienced players and suddenly you get slammed by a whirl winding ting Lu that forced out your valiant and wasted its booster earlier than you wanted, now your 63% valiant is doing okay, but then in the end game it gets smoked by a kingambit that withholds the SD/sucker and patiently spams its attacks. Before using Tera right when it needs to you.
 
So I mentioned earlier that Gambit's strong priority is pretty necessary in the tier currently, but looking back at that point, I am curious how true that is actually.

One of the main reasons that Gambit is so useful is that its priority is strong by default due to the passive boost from Supreme Overlord, which is the main reason it can afford to run so many different Tera types like Fairy, Flying, Ghost, etc. However, with Terastalization thrown in the mix, OU's line-up of strong priority users should theoretically be much larger than prior generations. I think Gambit is typically the go-to option for strong priority because it doesn't require Tera to be strong.

Tera Normal Dragonite is a pretty classic strong priority user. Its priority is more reliable than Gambit, has Multiscale to live hits from Sun / Rain, making it a fine option vs these playstyles. Tera Dark Meowscarada and Samurott are both really strong picks too that I've had some success with in the past & have really strong, punishing secondary Dark moves they can use with Black Glasses to jack up their threat level even more. I haven't used Scizor this gen, but I have seen it be quite effective vs some key mons like Iron Valiant and Enamorus, espicially with Tera Steel. I was clowning on Bisharp before, and TBH, I don't think it will be good, but 70 BP STAB priority off 125 Attack is still some of the strongest priority in the tier (esp compared to Meowscarada / Samurott) being forced to run Tera Dark to make up for its poor damage output should theoretically make it the "balanced" version of Kingambit that we all want, though in practice, I think it will be pretty terrible due to being weaker and worn down faster than Gambit.

I'm curious on what other's thoughts on this dilemma are. Will a Gambit ban actually result in more options opening up for strong priority users or naw?
Just to add on to this. You've got Ice Shard from both SD and Banded Baxcalibur. If Kingambit does leave the tier it frees up room on Cinderace sets since it's not forced to run will-o-wisp, and could opt for Libero Sucker Punch. Aqua Jet from Azumarill. Fake Out from Sneasler. Water Shuriken from Greninja. There are plenty of options available, and as others have pointed out there are other Ghost checks as well. It's just Kingambit is one of if not the best at both being a Ghost check and a Priority user. Just gotta determine if that role compression frees up the builder, or does Kingambit's presence restrict the builder.
 
Watch me lose all momentum turn 1 in a v bad MU for me and still win thanks to Gambino :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1912437822

Calcs for context:
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Solar Blade vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 372-438 (104.7 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Which is cool, can't be mad at Solar Blade tech
Val was useless
252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 70-83 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO
But this is why I'm voting DNB:
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Tera Dark Lilligant-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 460-541 (122 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I didn't play poorly, I just don't have a great MU with WW in Sun, who does really? Unless you have some fat spd walls that thing is p scary.
Since Liligant outspeeds Val in Sun, my options are limited. I would need to find a turn to Sub up w WW, but then Gambit can always sucker, break my sub, and bring Lili back in. Turn 6 is where I could theoretically taken back some momentum. Nothing on his team really wanted to switch into Gold- everything besides Gambit was in 2hko range, and Gambit has to fear FB, so this turn is good for me. However, I knew some Tera bullshit was absolutely about to go down, I assumed Fire or Ghost, but Dark works just as well ig lol. So with that in mind, and sooner than that tbh, I knew late game Gambit was my only true, consistent win. I find that's usually the case vs weather teams when I run offensive teams.

So, without Tera, Gold checks Lili, but obviously not the case here. Could I have Tera Water my Gold on turn 6? Sure, it would have been a risky play but more importantly a waste. The opposing Gambit just wins later. If we're going to have Tera, then you can't really be upset that we need a semi-broken monster to keep some of this goofy shit in check. It also wasn't free. I agility turn 9 instead of just taking out Lili, because this forces in their Gambit, the only mon I can SD in front of without getting Nuzzle, Spore, Yawn/Burned, or massive chip. Once in, I have to predict that they think I will Tera so they hit me w neutral kotow, then tera next turn.

Here's another reverse sweep vs rain:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1912330417-kqrh4ujtpbuos7qq779dt29u7iz1mb1pw

I could have led Zap or Ting, but that Azu was always going to get a BD up vs Pelip and/or be a problem in general. I was kinda just spamming rain playing 2-3 games at once, so I won't break down this one much. I played v subpar, and my opponent played poorly at the end- no trying to stall out Sucker, no Wave on Zap, going for Heavy Slam rather than ID+BP, no Wisp on Cinder, a weak speed booster Moon, etc.

I came here to post these replays and sort of laugh at how wild Gambit can be, but these weren't free wins, and I truly think Gambit is the literal duct tape holding this jalopy meta together. Banning it won't improve the tier. If I thought it would, I would vote Ban. We need a stopgap mon that blanket checks a lot of random offense teams as well as bulkier bullshit like Cress, and to gain back momentum after your opp pulls some goofy tera where you lose momentum. No team can handle all the tera sets, but Gambit gives you a weapon to not auto-lose in some MU's.

When teams can give mons perfect coverage and defensive options to blow past the 1-2 checks you may have for it, you can't be surprised when players crutch on Gambit to wiggle out of sticky situations.

A meta needs some S tiers, and that's all I think Gambit is.
In base form, it's obvious counterplay definitely exists.
I and others have illustrated there are at least 5 mons that hard check it in base form.
When ppl start saying it has no checks, they're talking about Gambit + Tera.
But then that opens up the broader, mind-numbing, copium infused, circular logic that is the Tera conversation.
Buzzwords like, "Opportunity cost. Tera management. Skill issue. Defensive Tera." are being applied to other mons, so what's up?

(They weren't really applied to Volc, either. Makes me think Volc would have passed a suspect. Thread would be filled with "Fire Clod handles it, just adapt. Skill issue. Defensive tera. blah blah."
Council did an emergency quickban, which I'm not mad at, but we missed out on some tera mental gymnastics in a thread that I would have loved to see.
When you show someone a game that is won by a Fire Bax, in which the opponent had literally no way to assume that, a tera evangelist will not see the same game as you. They will pick a turn and say that's where you went wrong- it's never tera to them, in any capacity whatsoever. So it's pointless to try and illustrate how tera creates some unholy tier uncomp aspects sometimes. If you posted a replay of Volc sweeping you, they'll say your team sucks, or you suck. But for some reason, they see Gambit and the tera-colored glasses fall right off, and through blurry eyes they see that tera breaks mons- but still can't make the jump that it breaks a meta.)

The meta is broken due to Tera, not Gambit, and since Tera supposedly has counterplay, just do that. Defensive Tera bro. Tera management, bro. "Skill ceiling, more variety, identity of the gen" keep that same energy big homie.
Don't just pick an S tier and put all your unconscious gripes about a gimmick meme meta onto it for being a great mon.
Heavy DNB on this side. Just manage your defensive tera dude, smh.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top