Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

[ant4456]

Watch me lose all momentum turn 1 in a v bad MU for me and still win thanks to Gambino :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1912437822

Calcs for context:
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Solar Blade vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 372-438 (104.7 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Which is cool, can't be mad at Solar Blade tech
Val was useless
252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 70-83 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO
But this is why I'm voting DNB:
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Tera Dark Lilligant-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 460-541 (122 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I didn't play poorly, I just don't have a great MU with WW in Sun, who does really? Unless you have some fat spd walls that thing is p scary.
Since Liligant outspeeds Val in Sun, my options are limited. I would need to find a turn to Sub up w WW, but then Gambit can always sucker, break my sub, and bring Lili back in. Turn 6 is where I could theoretically taken back some momentum. Nothing on his team really wanted to switch into Gold- everything besides Gambit was in 2hko range, and Gambit has to fear FB, so this turn is good for me. However, I knew some Tera bullshit was absolutely about to go down, I assumed Fire or Ghost, but Dark works just as well ig lol. So with that in mind, and sooner than that tbh, I knew late game Gambit was my only true, consistent win. I find that's usually the case vs weather teams when I run offensive teams.

So, without Tera, Gold checks Lili, but obviously not the case here. Could I have Tera Water my Gold on turn 6? Sure, it would have been a risky play but more importantly a waste. The opposing Gambit just wins later. If we're going to have Tera, then you can't really be upset that we need a semi-broken monster to keep some of this goofy shit in check. It also wasn't free. I agility turn 9 instead of just taking out Lili, because this forces in their Gambit, the only mon I can SD in front of without getting Nuzzle, Spore, Yawn/Burned, or massive chip. Once in, I have to predict that they think I will Tera so they hit me w neutral kotow, then tera next turn.

Here's another reverse sweep vs rain:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1912330417-kqrh4ujtpbuos7qq779dt29u7iz1mb1pw

I could have led Zap or Ting, but that Azu was always going to get a BD up vs Pelip and/or be a problem in general. I was kinda just spamming rain playing 2-3 games at once, so I won't break down this one much. I played v subpar, and my opponent played poorly at the end- no trying to stall out Sucker, no Wave on Zap, going for Heavy Slam rather than ID+BP, no Wisp on Cinder, a weak speed booster Moon, etc.

I came here to post these replays and sort of laugh at how wild Gambit can be, but these weren't free wins, and I truly think Gambit is the literal duct tape holding this jalopy meta together. Banning it won't improve the tier. If I thought it would, I would vote Ban. We need a stopgap mon that blanket checks a lot of random offense teams as well as bulkier bullshit like Cress, and to gain back momentum after your opp pulls some goofy tera where you lose momentum. No team can handle all the tera sets, but Gambit gives you a weapon to not auto-lose in some MU's.

When teams can give mons perfect coverage and defensive options to blow past the 1-2 checks you may have for it, you can't be surprised when players crutch on Gambit to wiggle out of sticky situations.

A meta needs some S tiers, and that's all I think Gambit is.
In base form, it's obvious counterplay definitely exists.
I and others have illustrated there are at least 5 mons that hard check it in base form.
When ppl start saying it has no checks, they're talking about Gambit + Tera.
But then that opens up the broader, mind-numbing, copium infused, circular logic that is the Tera conversation.
Buzzwords like, "Opportunity cost. Tera management. Skill issue. Defensive Tera." are being applied to other mons, so what's up?

(They weren't really applied to Volc, either. Makes me think Volc would have passed a suspect. Thread would be filled with "Fire Clod handles it, just adapt. Skill issue. Defensive tera. blah blah."
Council did an emergency quickban, which I'm not mad at, but we missed out on some tera mental gymnastics in a thread that I would have loved to see.
When you show someone a game that is won by a Fire Bax, in which the opponent had literally no way to assume that, a tera evangelist will not see the same game as you. They will pick a turn and say that's where you went wrong- it's never tera to them, in any capacity whatsoever. So it's pointless to try and illustrate how tera creates some unholy tier uncomp aspects sometimes. If you posted a replay of Volc sweeping you, they'll say your team sucks, or you suck. But for some reason, they see Gambit and the tera-colored glasses fall right off, and through blurry eyes they see that tera breaks mons- but still can't make the jump that it breaks a meta.)

The meta is broken due to Tera, not Gambit, and since Tera supposedly has counterplay, just do that. Defensive Tera bro. Tera management, bro. "Skill ceiling, more variety, identity of the gen" keep that same energy big homie.
Don't just pick an S tier and put all your unconscious gripes about a gimmick meme meta onto it for being a great mon.
Heavy DNB on this side. Just manage your defensive tera dude, smh.

I know you're being faceticious but one thing that makes Gambit unique actually is that no defensive Tera can adequately handle it. Single resists on frailer Pokemon die anyways, and no monotype resists both STABS. One of the only good Pokemon that resists both STABS, is Kingambit.

If we were to say, use a max Physically Defensive Garganacl with Tera Fighting

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Garganacl: 140-165 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Garganacl: 265-313 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And Iron Head has a chance to flinch, wooo! This is ignoring Tera Blast Fairy, which IMO is very very good. That obviously kills. Tera Dark also 2HKOS sometimes.

Of course, most Garganacl are not this set at all, and this is one of the physically bulkiest Pokemon in the game, with a Tera to not be weak to any of its STABs, that also needs Body Press + Kingambit doesn't Tera to win.

Even if this absurd set was Body Press, and Kingambit was Tera Dark,

252+ Def Tera Fighting Garganacl Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Kingambit: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Tera Boosted By The Way)

I do this all to show you that one of the things that makes Kingambit unique is that Kingambit is very reliable against Defensive Tera on the opponent's end.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Avalugg: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

At least this Pokemon OHKOs with Body Press, but again, I'm not trying to push this Pokemon as a serious counter, but instead a benchmark. Defensive Tera'ing is generally not an option, and will not help.

Dondozo is about the best you'll get and that doesn't fit on most teams, and Sucker Punch means out-offensing Kingambit is nearly impossible, meaning that a few tricks are all the meta has to deal with it.

I mean, shit, tons of the offensive metagame already resists Kingambit Sucker Punch, it just wins anyways.

 

[LoseToRU?]

I know you're being faceticious but one thing that makes Gambit unique actually is that no defensive Tera can adequately handle it. Single resists on frailer Pokemon die anyways, and no monotype resists both STABS. One of the only good Pokemon that resists both STABS, is Kingambit.

If we were to say, use a max Physically Defensive Garganacl with Tera Fighting

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Garganacl: 140-165 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Garganacl: 265-313 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And Iron Head has a chance to flinch, wooo! This is ignoring Tera Blast Fairy, which IMO is very very good. That obviously kills. Tera Dark also 2HKOS sometimes.

Of course, most Garganacl are not this set at all, and this is one of the physically bulkiest Pokemon in the game, with a Tera to not be weak to any of its STABs, that also needs Body Press + Kingambit doesn't Tera to win.

Even if this absurd set was Body Press, and Kingambit was Tera Dark,

252+ Def Tera Fighting Garganacl Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Kingambit: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Tera Boosted By The Way)

I do this all to show you that one of the things that makes Kingambit unique is that Kingambit is very reliable against Defensive Tera on the opponent's end.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Avalugg: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

At least this Pokemon OHKOs with Body Press, but again, I'm not trying to push this Pokemon as a serious counter, but instead a benchmark. Defensive Tera'ing is generally not an option, and will not help.

Dondozo is about the best you'll get and that doesn't fit on most teams, and Sucker Punch means out-offensing Kingambit is nearly impossible, meaning that a few tricks are all the meta has to deal with it.

I mean, shit, tons of the offensive metagame already resists Kingambit Sucker Punch, it just wins anyways.

If I can find 5 hard checks for Gambit in base form, I can find 5 defensive Teras easy.

First of all, your initial calcs are kinda pointless. Fighting Garg obviously 1v1s Gambit without Tera- Body Press a clean OHKO.
If Gambit is at fallen 5 that means it's end game, in which Garg always wins via Iron Def.
You surprise Gambit with Tera, ID, win easily. So yeah not sure what that was all about ngl.
Not gonna touch the even weirder Avalugg calcs, equally pointless. You take half HP for a KO Gambit. Nice.

As I said in an earlier post, as crazy as some Gambit calcs are, especially if you want to say Gambit is somehow at +2 and max HP, and fallen 5- but regardless, there are crazier calcs in this gen. All the S tier mons have impressive numbers in a vacuum you could pull up. And not even exclusive to S tiers- CB Tera Dragon Bax and Specs Enam Tera Fairy Moonblast calcs are impossible to switch into without a dedicated answer.

So, I'm not really impressed with fallen 5 +2 max HP calcs, but even in that vacuum there are 5 mons that beat it at base form even under those perfect conditions: Val, Tusk, Dozo, Zama, Lando
And again, this isn't counting soft checks, priority, sub, encore, status and sucker mind games.

We can go all day with defensive teras:
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Tera Fighting Zapdos: 196-231 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And you obviously KO w TB.
Let's say you Tera Fairy
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 288-340 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

We've established Gambit in base form is not broken, and from there the question is does Tera push it over the edge.
You have to convince me the same arguments used in support of Tera don't apply to Gambit.
The main tera arguments are opportunity cost, tera management, tera timing, meta knowledge, prediction, defensive tera, playing well, etc.
We can apply those same arguments to Gambit and its Tera sets.

In all seriousness, the mon is right on the borderline, but base form has checks and counters, and if/when it Teras then at that point it falls under Tera jurisdiction and all the Tera laws now apply to it, just like they do with all the other bullshit Tera sets.
You can't win a game with X Tera then get mad when you lose to Fairy Gambit. It's the same concept.

 

[txlix]

Watch me lose all momentum turn 1 in a v bad MU for me and still win thanks to Gambino :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1912437822

Calcs for context:
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Solar Blade vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 372-438 (104.7 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Which is cool, can't be mad at Solar Blade tech
Val was useless
252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 70-83 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO
But this is why I'm voting DNB:
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Tera Dark Lilligant-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 460-541 (122 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I didn't play poorly, I just don't have a great MU with WW in Sun, who does really? Unless you have some fat spd walls that thing is p scary.
Since Liligant outspeeds Val in Sun, my options are limited. I would need to find a turn to Sub up w WW, but then Gambit can always sucker, break my sub, and bring Lili back in. Turn 6 is where I could theoretically taken back some momentum. Nothing on his team really wanted to switch into Gold- everything besides Gambit was in 2hko range, and Gambit has to fear FB, so this turn is good for me. However, I knew some Tera bullshit was absolutely about to go down, I assumed Fire or Ghost, but Dark works just as well ig lol. So with that in mind, and sooner than that tbh, I knew late game Gambit was my only true, consistent win. I find that's usually the case vs weather teams when I run offensive teams.

So, without Tera, Gold checks Lili, but obviously not the case here. Could I have Tera Water my Gold on turn 6? Sure, it would have been a risky play but more importantly a waste. The opposing Gambit just wins later. If we're going to have Tera, then you can't really be upset that we need a semi-broken monster to keep some of this goofy shit in check. It also wasn't free. I agility turn 9 instead of just taking out Lili, because this forces in their Gambit, the only mon I can SD in front of without getting Nuzzle, Spore, Yawn/Burned, or massive chip. Once in, I have to predict that they think I will Tera so they hit me w neutral kotow, then tera next turn.

Here's another reverse sweep vs rain:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1912330417-kqrh4ujtpbuos7qq779dt29u7iz1mb1pw

I could have led Zap or Ting, but that Azu was always going to get a BD up vs Pelip and/or be a problem in general. I was kinda just spamming rain playing 2-3 games at once, so I won't break down this one much. I played v subpar, and my opponent played poorly at the end- no trying to stall out Sucker, no Wave on Zap, going for Heavy Slam rather than ID+BP, no Wisp on Cinder, a weak speed booster Moon, etc.

I came here to post these replays and sort of laugh at how wild Gambit can be, but these weren't free wins, and I truly think Gambit is the literal duct tape holding this jalopy meta together. Banning it won't improve the tier. If I thought it would, I would vote Ban. We need a stopgap mon that blanket checks a lot of random offense teams as well as bulkier bullshit like Cress, and to gain back momentum after your opp pulls some goofy tera where you lose momentum. No team can handle all the tera sets, but Gambit gives you a weapon to not auto-lose in some MU's.

When teams can give mons perfect coverage and defensive options to blow past the 1-2 checks you may have for it, you can't be surprised when players crutch on Gambit to wiggle out of sticky situations.

A meta needs some S tiers, and that's all I think Gambit is.
In base form, it's obvious counterplay definitely exists.
I and others have illustrated there are at least 5 mons that hard check it in base form.
When ppl start saying it has no checks, they're talking about Gambit + Tera.
But then that opens up the broader, mind-numbing, copium infused, circular logic that is the Tera conversation.
Buzzwords like, "Opportunity cost. Tera management. Skill issue. Defensive Tera." are being applied to other mons, so what's up?

(They weren't really applied to Volc, either. Makes me think Volc would have passed a suspect. Thread would be filled with "Fire Clod handles it, just adapt. Skill issue. Defensive tera. blah blah."
Council did an emergency quickban, which I'm not mad at, but we missed out on some tera mental gymnastics in a thread that I would have loved to see.
When you show someone a game that is won by a Fire Bax, in which the opponent had literally no way to assume that, a tera evangelist will not see the same game as you. They will pick a turn and say that's where you went wrong- it's never tera to them, in any capacity whatsoever. So it's pointless to try and illustrate how tera creates some unholy tier uncomp aspects sometimes. If you posted a replay of Volc sweeping you, they'll say your team sucks, or you suck. But for some reason, they see Gambit and the tera-colored glasses fall right off, and through blurry eyes they see that tera breaks mons- but still can't make the jump that it breaks a meta.)

The meta is broken due to Tera, not Gambit, and since Tera supposedly has counterplay, just do that. Defensive Tera bro. Tera management, bro. "Skill ceiling, more variety, identity of the gen" keep that same energy big homie.
Don't just pick an S tier and put all your unconscious gripes about a gimmick meme meta onto it for being a great mon.
Heavy DNB on this side. Just manage your defensive tera dude, smh.

thanks for sharing those replays it really shows how terra can completely win the favour of a bad matchup, that gambit should've died to low kick in the first battle but the defensive tera fairy saved it, i fr believe by itself its manageable its just one of the if not the best terra abusers in the ou meta rn

 

[ant4456]

If I can find 5 hard checks for Gambit in base form, I can find 5 defensive Teras easy.

First of all, your initial calcs are kinda pointless. Fighting Garg obviously 1v1s Gambit without Tera- Body Press a clean OHKO.
If Gambit is at fallen 5 that means it's end game, in which Garg always wins via Iron Def.
You surprise Gambit with Tera, ID, win easily. So yeah not sure what that was all about ngl.
Not gonna touch the even weirder Avalugg calcs, equally pointless. You take half HP for a KO Gambit. Nice.

As I said in an earlier post, as crazy as some Gambit calcs are, especially if you want to say Gambit is somehow at +2 and max HP, and fallen 5- but regardless, there are crazier calcs in this gen. All the S tier mons have impressive numbers in a vacuum you could pull up. And not even exclusive to S tiers- CB Tera Dragon Bax and Specs Enam Tera Fairy Moonblast calcs are impossiNoble to switch into without a dedicated answer.

So, I'm not really impressed with fallen 5 +2 max HP calcs, but even in that vacuum there are 5 mons that beat it at base form even under those perfect conditions: Val, Tusk, Dozo, Zama, Lando
And again, this isn't counting soft checks, priority, sub, encore, status and sucker mind games.

We can go all day with defensive teras:
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Tera Fighting Zapdos: 196-231 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And you obviously KO w TB.
Let's say you Tera Fairy
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 288-340 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO afte Leftovers recovery

We've established Gambit in base form is not broken, and from there the question is does Tera push it over the edge.
You have to convince me the same arguments used in support of Tera don't apply to Gambit.
The main tera arguments are opportunity cost, tera management, tera timing, meta knowledge, prediction, defensive tera, playing well, etc.
We can apply those same arguments to Gambit and its Tera sets.

In all seriousness, the mon is right on the borderline, but base form has checks and counters, and if/when it Teras then at that point it falls under Tera jurisdiction and all the Tera laws now apply to it, just like they do with all the other bullshit Tera sets.
You can't win a game with X Tera then get mad when you lose to Fairy Gambit. It's the same concept.

I don't care about your opinion on Tera. Tera is what breaks Kingambit. This is a suspect test on Kingambit. If you think Kingambit is broken because of Tera, that means you think it is broken, and therefore your answer should be ban. If your problem is that this is a Kingambit suspect and not a Tera suspect; I am not involved with the council in any way, and I cannot change what is being suspected.

I showed you that with no boosts Garganacl does not OHKO Kingambit, even with Tera Fighting STAB Body Press, fully maxxed out investment if Kingambit is Tera Dark, to show that its natural bulk makes it 1v1 even such an absurd Pokemon as that, because I am trying to show that Kingambit cannot be Defensively Tera'd around.

No, other Pokemon's calcs are not as insane because they do not get a free Choice Band boost on good priority STAB, with 135 Attack, with Tera still freed up, and the easiest Swords Dance in the entire metagame.

Kingambit is not reliably checked by Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Zamazenta, or Landorus-T. It simply is not, you need to run several Pokemon because of Tera Kingambit.

-1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 127-150 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is relatively neutral too of a Tera Type, simply removing the weakness to Earthquake and not immunity/increased power, like Tera Flying and Dark respectively. Landorus-T becomes setup fodder.

That is, assuming Kingambit has not clicked Swords Dance once already, in which case, lmao.

Iron Valiant needs to not run into a Tera and be able to Encore a Sucker Punch after a previous Pokemon died in order to reliably check Kingambit unless it's at low HP, which is not a guarantee whatsoever.

Great Tusk loses 40% (sometimes by, hm, Kingambit in the early/midgame) with no recovery beyond Leftovers, which can often be Knocked Off, and then loses. to basically every Tera. That is, assuming it has Close-Combat, which it doesn't always anymore, and if not it even lives Earthquake anyways.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 181-214 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 362-428 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy/Flying Kingambit: 89-105 (26 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

The problem with your argument is just that, "dedicated answer". You can have a dedicated answer to most Pokemon in the metagame, that also function against other threats, except Kingambit and arguably Baxcalibur. Some would go as far as to say Iron Valiant, but I do not necessarily agree.

Those two are not nearly as hard to check Defensively or Offensively, as Kingambit, in my opinion. I would not be opposed to a Baxcalibur Suspect, but frankly that is an opposing example to your original point: One of the only ways to check Baxcalibur, funnily, is Defensive Tera, and I've seen people straight-up say that Baxcalibur would be more broken without things like Tera Great Tusk to check it.

Meanwhile, bad players like me get one Iron Head on Great Tusk in the midgame and go on to counter-sweep teams back, awesome.

 

[LoseToRU?]

I don't care about your opinion on Tera. Tera is what breaks Kingambit. This is a suspect test on Kingambit. If you think Kingambit is broken because of Tera, that means you think it is broken, and therefore your answer should be ban. If your problem is that this is a Kingambit suspect and not a Tera suspect; I am not involved with the council in any way, and I cannot change what is being suspected.

I showed you that with no boosts Garganacl does not OHKO Kingambit, even with Tera Fighting STAB Body Press, fully maxxed out investment if Kingambit is Tera Dark, to show that its natural bulk makes it 1v1 even such an absurd Pokemon as that, because I am trying to show that Kingambit cannot be Defensively Tera'd around.

No, other Pokemon's calcs are not as insane because they do not get a free Choice Band boost on good priority STAB, with 135 Attack, with Tera still freed up, and the easiest Swords Dance in the entire metagame.

Kingambit is not reliably checked by Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Zamazenta, or Landorus-T. It simply is not, you need to run several Pokemon because of Tera Kingambit.

-1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 127-150 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is relatively neutral too of a Tera Type, simply removing the weakness to Earthquake and not immunity/increased power, like Tera Flying and Dark respectively. Landorus-T becomes setup fodder.

That is, assuming Kingambit has not clicked Swords Dance once already, in which case, lmao.

Iron Valiant needs to not run into a Tera and be able to Encore a Sucker Punch after a previous Pokemon died in order to reliably check Kingambit unless it's at low HP, which is not a guarantee whatsoever.

Great Tusk loses 40% (sometimes by, hm, Kingambit in the early/midgame) with no recovery beyond Leftovers, which can often be Knocked Off, and then loses. to basically every Tera. That is, assuming it has Close-Combat, which it doesn't always anymore, and if not it even lives Earthquake anyways.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 181-214 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 362-428 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy/Flying Kingambit: 89-105 (26 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

The problem with your argument is just that, "dedicated answer". You can have a dedicated answer to most Pokemon in the metagame, that also function against other threats, except Kingambit and arguably Baxcalibur. Some would go as far as to say Iron Valiant, but I do not necessarily agree.

Those two are not nearly as hard to check Defensively or Offensively, as Kingambit, in my opinion. I would not be opposed to a Baxcalibur Suspect, but frankly that is an opposing example to your original point: One of the only ways to check Baxcalibur, funnily, is Defensive Tera, and I've seen people straight-up say that Baxcalibur would be more broken without things like Tera Great Tusk to check it.

Meanwhile, bad players like me get one Iron Head on Great Tusk in the midgame and go on to counter-sweep teams back, awesome.

I don't think it's technically broken with Tera, and so I won't vote ban.
Again, pointless calcs.
Those mons beat base Gambit, end of story. No need to calc them vs Tera Gambit.

Tera Gambit can absolutely be checked by defensive Tera and skillful play.
If you have a +2 fallen 5 Tera Fairy Gambit which just killed a Tusk, I just posted a calc where defensive Tera Gold lives sucker and OHKOs with MIR.
If it's Dark Tera, Zama, Def Tusk, and Val all beat it.

If a mon is broken with Tera then that means it can't be checked by Tera, but these are v rare cases.
Leki, Espa, Volc were broken due to the nature of Spa mons- Dark Clod and Dirge could handle Espa, but that's not enough.
Same with Leki and Volc, they didn't have enough defensive tera checks.
Pao had less than 5 checks as well, including def tera.

Before I change my mind, I need proof that there aren't enough defensive tera options, and that hasn't been done yet.
When you factor in the 5 hard checks for base form, several counterplay options such as encore, trick, status, etc. and defensive tera, it doesn't seem that the mon is ban-worthy.

If a mon has 5 checks in base form, and over 5 checks for its tera forms, as well as reasonable counterplay options for both base and tera variants then I don't see how it's broken.
That's just my personal benchmark- the QB/Suspected into Ubers mons do not fit this criteria.
They had less than 5 checks in base form, less than 5 defensive tera checks, and counterplay was not reasonable, so they were banned.

 

[658Greninja]

I’m pushing myself to get reqs rn, and if I do, I’m voting DNB

I was very much Pro-Ban for Gambit a week ago, but after building more teams, experimenting, and playing some games with/against Gambit during the suspect, I found Gambit to not only be manageable in the current meta, but also beneficial.

Reason No. 1: Many Viable Checks
I am not gonna refer to anything as a counter since the term counter is lost in a Tera metagame, but Gambit has many viable checks, and these checks are not soley there because of Gambit.

Corviknight can reasonably check Gambit with BP while also checking other threats like Tusk, Lando, Valiant, and Bax.

Dondozo can eat hits from Gambit even with +5 Supreme Overlord into the question and is a massive unaware wall that checks several other Pokemon in the meta.

Great Tusk can handle even after it clicks Tera Flying with BU Ice Spinner. Also you have no reason not to run Tusk on 95% of teams for obv reasons.

Flame Body Heatran can punish Gambit and has EP to punish Tera Fire. Or it can burn it with WoW. Tran also can set rocks and force progress with Magma Storm and Rocks.

Lando with Edgequake coverage can cover whatever Tera Gambit has while having the physical bulk to tank suckers. There is also Sub variants. Lando also checks other physical attackers like Sneasler and physical Valiant.

Moltres can tank unboosted Kowtow Cleaves and threaten with Wisp. “B..But Lum and Tera Fire” Well if you’re running Molt, your already running Tusk anyways, so what are you complaining about? Besides, Gambit might get burnt still after eating Lum cause of Flame Body. Plus Molt checks the fairies while providing momentum via U-Turn.

Samurott-H can switch into non-Tera Fairy Blast and Low Kick Gambit safely. Even if Gambit tries to Tera after clicking SD, it can just lock it with Encore. Samu is also a strong offensive presence that brainlessly clicks Ceasless Edge for spikes, again, not alot is wasted when using it.

Zamazenta tanks Gambit’s hits except for Tera Flying. For Tera Fairy there is always Tera Steel Heavy Slam for that.

This is all without going over possible niche options like Iron Hands, Watertauros, Quaquaval, Pawmot, etc.

Yes, Tera makes using these mons to check Gambit more complicated, but teams have another option for Gambit.

Reason No. 2: Encore/Trick/Substitute
These options have been brought up several times in the suspect thread. Let’s take a look at the viable mons that learn Encore and Trick/Switcheroo.

Azumarill: Encore.
Already can run Encore with Tera Fairy to OHKO Amoonguss after a BD.

Cresselia: Trick
Can run a Scarf Support set like it did in USUM. Also lures Gambit who is a common check to it.

Dragonite: Encore
Already runs Encore on certain DD sets. Has the bulk + Multiscale to eat a hit from Gambit when need be.

Gholdengo: Trick
Already regularly runs Trick on Scarf/Specs. Gambit also likes switching into Ghold and would try clicking Sucker to avoid the risk of Focus Miss.

Greninja: Switcheroo
Can run a Specs set with Battle Bond/Protean due to its spicy 122 speed tier. Switcheroo is also nice for crippling Bax.

Hoopa-U: Trick
Specs already runs Trick. Ppl also like switching into Hoopa with Gambit.

Iron Valiant: Encore/Trick
Already commonly runs Encore and is one of the best mons in the tier. Trick on Specs/Scarf also has the benefit of crippling Glowking and Amongus.

Lilligant-H: Encore
Only fits on Sun, but it can Encore it and threaten a sweep.

Maushold: Encore
Niche option on HO. Already runs Encore on its only set. Can also remove hazards and threaten a sweep with Tidy Up.

Meowscarada: Trick
Underrated Scarfer. Threatens HO while also being capable of crippling fat teams with Knock and Trick. People often try switching their Gambit into it so more reason to run it.

Mew: Trick
If for some reason you want to run a more niche Cress but with Spikes, uhhh, go for it ig.

Pawmot: Encore
Niche option on HO that can also switch into non-Tera Fairy Blast Gambit comfortably. Also matches up nicely against Tera Flying.

Quaquaval: Encore
Another niche option. Has the added benefit of trolling Dozo. Tera Flying means nothing if Quaquaval locks it via Encore.

Rotom-Wash: Trick
Already runs Trick on Scarf sets. Washtom can eat one Kowtow Cleave and threaten to cripple it with Trick.

Samurott-H: Encore
Already went over this, moving on.

Scream Tail: Encore
Already runs Encore. Can’t switch into Iron Head but makes Gambit hesitant of clicking SD or Sucker.

Slowking-G: Trick
Can prob tech in Specs or Black Sludge Trick to ruin a fat wall like Ting-Lu and can cripple Gambit.

Sneasler: Switcheroo
Scarf/Band already runs Switcheroo. Gambit gets greedy with Tera Dark Sucker and then gets crippled.

Tinkaton: Encore
Niche support mon. Always outruns Gambit and can do other shit like set up rocks, click Knock, or T-Wave.

Uxie: Encore
Niche option on TR. Great especially for TR since Gambit is a notoriously bad mu.

Zoroark-H: Trick
Niche asf on Ghost Spam. Specially tricky with Illusion into the mix.

Out of these mons
4/11 users of Encore are already OU staples. Disappointing, but if you look at the number of viable mons with Trick/Switcheroo

7/11 users of Trick/Switcheroo are already OU staples. Adding Gren and Meow adds that up to two.

In total, 12 mons above C+ tier can run Encore or Trick.

“But what if Gambit switches out?” Congrats, you stopped Gambit from steamrolling your team. If it comes back in again, use Encore again.

Substitute also has been seeing use on mons like Enam, Zama, Moth, and others for reasons outside of Gambit. It also makes offensively checking these mons harder, specially with Tera. Its also for Garg, cause lets be fr, we still hate Garg.

I’m not done yet tho, there is another factor.

Reason No. 3: Not alot of safe switch ins.
Might be crazy, but if you really think about it, Gambit doesn’t have alot of safe entry outside of pivoting and double switch. The most common switch in that comes in mind are the ghosts. However Pult can cripple it with Wisp or 2HKO with Flamethrower. Ghold can cripple it with Wisp or nuke it via Focus Miss. Bax clicks Crash and EQ with spikes down and you got a dead Gambit. Clod clicks EQ and does like 30%. Nothing besides Covert Cloak mons and Regen is a safe Garg switch in. Glimm can click EP or run Corrosion Toxic. Mystical Fire from Hatt does like 40%, Hoopa-U does a shitton even if Gambit resists it. Glowking cripples it with T-Wave. Realistically your only safe way of entry is through passive shit like Amoonguss and Pex, or predictions, and that gets harder with spikes up.

Everything including the mons Gambit is designed to check can cripple it and the tier has several options to check it or punish it.

I think ppl adapted to Gambit well and I believe after the suspect we should focus on other things…Like Quick Claw.

 

[ant4456]

I think ppl adapted to Gambit well and I believe after the suspect we should focus on other things…Like Quick Claw

If you let any Uber into a tier for almost a year, we will adapt. That's just Pokemon, and this has been proven with insane bullshit that in retrospect being allowed for so long in old tiers was insane.

Zygarde in Crown Tundra? Offensively out-maneuver with Choice Band Triple Axel Weavile, bro. Just run Substitute on half your team, Glare Sub isn't a problem. Run Ice Beam on Clefable, lol. Run Scale Shot Garchomp and just play better, easy. Landorus-T pivot into an Ice attacker. Safeguard Alolan-Ninetales can support a team for Glare once it switches out for several turns, duh. Lum Berry Surging Strikes Urshifu is a good answer guys! Tapu Fini can beat it back once!

Kingambit is arguably harder to check than some of the Gen 9 Ubers. Shit, Kingambit is still a great Pokemon without Tera, Regieleki is literally bad without something you might want to use on other Pokemon. Volcarona is arguably just as checked by things such as Encore spam and scouting, and that goes for most setup sweepers. Scream Tail Encore is one of the few times I will not judge an Encore user as something for Kingambit, because it is also just genuinely good, and it could sit on Espathra for days and force Tera's early, or just let you easily beat it.

Annihilape can be revenge killed as long as you know its Tera pretty reliably via the plethora of fast Special Attackers in the tier, and not attacking it when you don't need to can really slow it down.

Point not being that we should unban Ubers, but because Ubers are not something that are inherently uncheckable by the means of OU. Shit, in Ubers right now Skeledirge is ranked higher than most Ubers, at A. Toxapex at A-, Corviknight ranked at the same tier as Flutter Mane, Samurott-Hisui ranked higher than a lot of Arceus forms...

OU is a tier of good Pokemon that are good. And being good Pokemon, even with the entire dex unleashed, non-Ubers very often rise up to check Ubers. What I'm saying is that Kingambit being checked by OU by some few sets on some Pokemon is not a showing that the Pokemon is not an Ubers-level threat, but that it is. The fact that so much of teambuilding nowadays revolves around checking Kingambit in any ways you can fit, more than some entire teamstyles, shows that Kingambit is a Pokemon that is unhealthy for the metagame, even if it is "checked".


Adaptation is expected and possible for Ubers, and that is what happened here, we let an Uber in for a long time, and banned other Uber-worthy threats from the metagame, and now it is alone or almost alone.

 

[Alternator]

Using the bulky SD Kingambit set on the calculator, but setting the tera type to Flying instead of Fairy, and a lot of these "checks" are no longer checks:

+1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 170-202 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kingambit wins this pretty handily even with Rocky Helmet chip.


+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 349-412 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 150-178 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Those are favorable IVs for Great Tusk - none of them are running 252 HP/252 Atk - and he still loses because (unless he's Adamant AND Choice Band) Ice Spinner is still a 3HKO, while Iron Head only needs two turns at most, and is 50% to OHKO the 252/0 set with one layer of Spikes.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 486-572 (168.1 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 318-376 (79.5 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Encore Valiant beats Kingambit, but gets cleanly OHKO'd if the Kingambit player predicts the switch in and attacks instead of clicking SD. Every other set loses, even a Specs Thunderbolt versus tera-Flying fails to OHKO, because Kingambit is a fat, fat boy.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 354-417 (117.6 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 309-364 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kingambit doesn't actually need to be boosted to kill a Hoopa-U, so you don't have to play guessing games with Sucker Punch and Trick, even if it comes in on a double switch you can just OHKO. Trick does mean that your next check has a much better chance, of course, but now you're sacrificing a mon and hoping your second one can get the job done.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 445-525 (137.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 369-435 (114.2 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 445-525 (115.2 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Heatran: 333-393 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 187-222 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 154-183 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage

Offensive Heatran gets OHKO'd by both Kowtow and Sucker Punch, SpD sets get OHKO'd by Kowtow, and if you're running physically defensive Flame Body Heatran just for Kingambit, I think that's a sign it's a problem, and it still loses unless you win a prediction war.


I'm out of time on my lunch break, but this is just one set blowing past a bunch of named checks. Counterplay is to not let it come in healthy and set up, not so much stopping it after setting up, at least with one mon.

 

[KamenOH]

If you let any Uber into a tier for almost a year, we will adapt

Not gonna do the whole post because thats long as hell, but Kingambit is not an Uber, for it not only hasn't been banned to Ubers, but also didn't start in Ubers. Don't @ me with it being ranked highly in ubers, since non-ubers can be ranked highly like as you mentioned Skeledirge.
The whole fucking point of this suspect test is to vote on if Kingambit even is an ubers mon or not, and to say it just is deprives this whole act of meaning. Do we just bow down to you, YOUR EXCELLENCY?!
No, we do not, for we are civilized, and vote.
Then again quickbans are a thing, which have been blown out so hard as of late, but that's for another thread on another day.
It aint ubers til we vote it is, and thems the breaks.

 

[ayevon]

I’m pushing myself to get reqs rn, and if I do, I’m voting DNB

I was very much Pro-Ban for Gambit a week ago, but after building more teams, experimenting, and playing some games with/against Gambit during the suspect, I found Gambit to not only be manageable in the current meta, but also beneficial.

Reason No. 1: Many Viable Checks
I am not gonna refer to anything as a counter since the term counter is lost in a Tera metagame, but Gambit has many viable checks, and these checks are not soley there because of Gambit.

Corviknight can reasonably check Gambit with BP while also checking other threats like Tusk, Lando, Valiant, and Bax.

Dondozo can eat hits from Gambit even with +5 Supreme Overlord into the question and is a massive unaware wall that checks several other Pokemon in the meta.

Great Tusk can handle even after it clicks Tera Flying with BU Ice Spinner. Also you have no reason not to run Tusk on 95% of teams for obv reasons.

Flame Body Heatran can punish Gambit and has EP to punish Tera Fire. Or it can burn it with WoW. Tran also can set rocks and force progress with Magma Storm and Rocks.

Lando with Edgequake coverage can cover whatever Tera Gambit has while having the physical bulk to tank suckers. There is also Sub variants. Lando also checks other physical attackers like Sneasler and physical Valiant.

Moltres can tank unboosted Kowtow Cleaves and threaten with Wisp. “B..But Lum and Tera Fire” Well if you’re running Molt, your already running Tusk anyways, so what are you complaining about? Besides, Gambit might get burnt still after eating Lum cause of Flame Body. Plus Molt checks the fairies while providing momentum via U-Turn.

Samurott-H can switch into non-Tera Fairy Blast and Low Kick Gambit safely. Even if Gambit tries to Tera after clicking SD, it can just lock it with Encore. Samu is also a strong offensive presence that brainlessly clicks Ceasless Edge for spikes, again, not alot is wasted when using it.

Zamazenta tanks Gambit’s hits except for Tera Flying. For Tera Fairy there is always Tera Steel Heavy Slam for that.

This is all without going over possible niche options like Iron Hands, Watertauros, Quaquaval, Pawmot, etc.

Yes, Tera makes using these mons to check Gambit more complicated, but teams have another option for Gambit.

Reason No. 2: Encore/Trick/Substitute
These options have been brought up several times in the suspect thread. Let’s take a look at the viable mons that learn Encore and Trick/Switcheroo.

Azumarill: Encore.
Already can run Encore with Tera Fairy to OHKO Amoonguss after a BD.

Cresselia: Trick
Can run a Scarf Support set like it did in USUM. Also lures Gambit who is a common check to it.

Dragonite: Encore
Already runs Encore on certain DD sets. Has the bulk + Multiscale to eat a hit from Gambit when need be.

Gholdengo: Trick
Already regularly runs Trick on Scarf/Specs. Gambit also likes switching into Ghold and would try clicking Sucker to avoid the risk of Focus Miss.

Greninja: Switcheroo
Can run a Specs set with Battle Bond/Protean due to its spicy 122 speed tier. Switcheroo is also nice for crippling Bax.

Hoopa-U: Trick
Specs already runs Trick. Ppl also like switching into Hoopa with Gambit.

Iron Valiant: Encore/Trick
Already commonly runs Encore and is one of the best mons in the tier. Trick on Specs/Scarf also has the benefit of crippling Glowking and Amongus.

Lilligant-H: Encore
Only fits on Sun, but it can Encore it and threaten a sweep.

Maushold: Encore
Niche option on HO. Already runs Encore on its only set. Can also remove hazards and threaten a sweep with Tidy Up.

Meowscarada: Trick
Underrated Scarfer. Threatens HO while also being capable of crippling fat teams with Knock and Trick. People often try switching their Gambit into it so more reason to run it.

Mew: Trick
If for some reason you want to run a more niche Cress but with Spikes, uhhh, go for it ig.

Pawmot: Encore
Niche option on HO that can also switch into non-Tera Fairy Blast Gambit comfortably. Also matches up nicely against Tera Flying.

Quaquaval: Encore
Another niche option. Has the added benefit of trolling Dozo. Tera Flying means nothing if Quaquaval locks it via Encore.

Rotom-Wash: Trick
Already runs Trick on Scarf sets. Washtom can eat one Kowtow Cleave and threaten to cripple it with Trick.

Samurott-H: Encore
Already went over this, moving on.

Scream Tail: Encore
Already runs Encore. Can’t switch into Iron Head but makes Gambit hesitant of clicking SD or Sucker.

Slowking-G: Trick
Can prob tech in Specs or Black Sludge Trick to ruin a fat wall like Ting-Lu and can cripple Gambit.

Sneasler: Switcheroo
Scarf/Band already runs Switcheroo. Gambit gets greedy with Tera Dark Sucker and then gets crippled.

Tinkaton: Encore
Niche support mon. Always outruns Gambit and can do other shit like set up rocks, click Knock, or T-Wave.

Uxie: Encore
Niche option on TR. Great especially for TR since Gambit is a notoriously bad mu.

Zoroark-H: Trick
Niche asf on Ghost Spam. Specially tricky with Illusion into the mix.

Out of these mons
4/11 users of Encore are already OU staples. Disappointing, but if you look at the number of viable mons with Trick/Switcheroo

7/11 users of Trick/Switcheroo are already OU staples. Adding Gren and Meow adds that up to two.

In total, 12 mons above C+ tier can run Encore or Trick.

“But what if Gambit switches out?” Congrats, you stopped Gambit from steamrolling your team. If it comes back in again, use Encore again.

Substitute also has been seeing use on mons like Enam, Zama, Moth, and others for reasons outside of Gambit. It also makes offensively checking these mons harder, specially with Tera. Its also for Garg, cause lets be fr, we still hate Garg.

I’m not done yet tho, there is another factor.

Reason No. 3: Not alot of safe switch ins.
Might be crazy, but if you really think about it, Gambit doesn’t have alot of safe entry outside of pivoting and double switch. The most common switch in that comes in mind are the ghosts. However Pult can cripple it with Wisp or 2HKO with Flamethrower. Ghold can cripple it with Wisp or nuke it via Focus Miss. Bax clicks Crash and EQ with spikes down and you got a dead Gambit. Clod clicks EQ and does like 30%. Nothing besides Covert Cloak mons and Regen is a safe Garg switch in. Glimm can click EP or run Corrosion Toxic. Mystical Fire from Hatt does like 40%, Hoopa-U does a shitton even if Gambit resists it. Glowking cripples it with T-Wave. Realistically your only safe way of entry is through passive shit like Amoonguss and Pex, or predictions, and that gets harder with spikes up.

Everything including the mons Gambit is designed to check can cripple it and the tier has several options to check it or punish it.

I think ppl adapted to Gambit well and I believe after the suspect we should focus on other things…Like Quick Claw.

once a battle answers like trick shouldn't be listed as serious counterplay, never mind the fact that most of those mons cannot even switch into gambit

 

[ant4456]

Not gonna do the whole post because thats long as hell, but Kingambit is not an Uber, for it not only hasn't been banned to Ubers, but also didn't start in Ubers. Don't @ me with it being ranked highly in ubers, since non-ubers can be ranked highly like as you mentioned Skeledirge.
The whole fucking point of this suspect test is to vote on if Kingambit even is an ubers mon or not, and to say it just is deprives this whole act of meaning. Do we just bow down to you, YOUR EXCELLENCY?!
No, we do not, for we are civilized, and vote.
Then again quickbans are a thing, which have been blown out so hard as of late, but that's for another thread on another day.
It aint ubers til we vote it is, and thems the breaks.

You missed the entire point of my post, and didn't even notice that by your reading of my post I'd be claiming fucking Corviknight is Ubers lol

The point was that having checks does not mean something shouldn't be banned, or shouldn't be Ubers.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Using the bulky SD Kingambit set on the calculator, but setting the tera type to Flying instead of Fairy, and a lot of these "checks" are no longer checks:

+1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 170-202 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kingambit wins this pretty handily even with Rocky Helmet chip.


+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 349-412 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 150-178 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Those are favorable IVs for Great Tusk - none of them are running 252 HP/252 Atk - and he still loses because (unless he's Adamant AND Choice Band) Ice Spinner is still a 3HKO, while Iron Head only needs two turns at most, and is 50% to OHKO the 252/0 set with one layer of Spikes.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 486-572 (168.1 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 318-376 (79.5 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Encore Valiant beats Kingambit, but gets cleanly OHKO'd if the Kingambit player predicts the switch in and attacks instead of clicking SD. Every other set loses, even a Specs Thunderbolt versus tera-Flying fails to OHKO, because Kingambit is a fat, fat boy.

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 354-417 (117.6 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 309-364 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kingambit doesn't actually need to be boosted to kill a Hoopa-U, so you don't have to play guessing games with Sucker Punch and Trick, even if it comes in on a double switch you can just OHKO. Trick does mean that your next check has a much better chance, of course, but now you're sacrificing a mon and hoping your second one can get the job done.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 445-525 (137.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 369-435 (114.2 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 445-525 (115.2 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Heatran: 333-393 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 187-222 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 154-183 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage

Offensive Heatran gets OHKO'd by both Kowtow and Sucker Punch, SpD sets get OHKO'd by Kowtow, and if you're running physically defensive Flame Body Heatran just for Kingambit, I think that's a sign it's a problem, and it still loses unless you win a prediction war.


I'm out of time on my lunch break, but this is just one set blowing past a bunch of named checks. Counterplay is to not let it come in healthy and set up, not so much stopping it after setting up, at least with one mon.

Another wall of useless calcs.
You can't take checks for base Gambit, and then waste your lunch break calc'ing Tera Gambit sets.
Tera Flying Gambit loses to Bax, Zap, Zama, Dozo, Hands, etc.
"Counterplay is to not let it come in healthy and set up, not so much stopping it after setting up, at least with one mon."
This can be said about several mons in the tier right now, not a valid argument.

once a battle answers like trick shouldn't be listed as serious counterplay, never mind the fact that most of those mons cannot even switch into gambit

The entire point of revenge killing is not switching into the mon...
Gambit has soft checks that can eat at least 1 attack, then scare it out or KO it.
Saying Trick isn't serious counterplay is like saying things encore, sub, status, and fishing for Flame Body/Static isn't serious counterplay.

You missed the entire point of my post, and didn't even notice that by your reading of my post I'd be claiming fucking Corviknight is Ubers lol

The point was that having checks does not mean something shouldn't be banned, or shouldn't be Ubers.

You missed 685Greninja's entire point about adapting, and threw a poor taste laugh react at a valid post outlining counterplay.
We can adapt to Gambit.

If Gambit was actually broken, it would have been suspected and banned a long time ago.
This suspect is an appeasement suspect like Zama. The mon won't be banned. You might as well start adapting.

 

[KamenOH]

You missed the entire point of my post, and didn't even notice that by your reading of my post I'd be claiming fucking Corviknight is Ubers lol

The point was that having checks does not mean something shouldn't be banned, or shouldn't be Ubers.

no wonder political cartoons need labels
What leap of logic did you MacGyver into me thinking that you said Corv should be ubers? I simply stated that your assertion that Kingambit was an ubers mon is presumptuous and incorrect, and will be wrong unless it is voted Ubers.

As for your point itself, in Kingambit's case I'd argue it does mean it shouldn't be banned, since it shows there's actual fucking counterplay to it, and that it isn't pulling shit legitimately never run like, i dunno, your own Ice Beam Clefable example.
Lemme guess, if it isn't a counter it isn't enough? That's all this community harhars about, muh counter muh counter, when basing your entire system on oh this mon can easily beat this mon leads to some of the most braindead conversations imaginable.
Of course fighting types knock its teeth in, so what? Net zero conversation if that's all you stick to. Base your shit on whether or not it benefits or detracts from the tier as well. Its the best priority user and a very solid answer to the rampant ghost types, as well as a great late game cleaner. I'd say that overcomes the slight issue of it being able to reverse sweep, if thats even an issue. Its a sweeper, we have a ton of those.

 

[Karxrida]

Been thinking on this a bit and I believe Kingambit wouldn't be healthy for the tier even if Tera was gone.

The main thing that pushes it over for me is the fact that a well-played Kingambit can also do work in the midgame, not just lategame. Kingambit's typing and bulk allow it to come in on predicted resisted hits and fire off incredibly powerful attacks, which don't need Supreme Overlord stacks to be threatening.

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 141-166 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- 79.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (+2 has a chance to OHKO)

(I know you probably wouldn't stay in on Garg without using Tera or scouting to see it doesn't have Body Press, but wanted to show the neutral damage potential on a premiere wall even without Supreme Overlord. Plus Tera Fairy Garg just kind of dies to Iron Head.)

A single good switch-in could easily let King wreak havoc early on and break down the opponent for something else if need be, giving it a great deal of flexibility during battle. It's not like Last Resort Houndstone, which required you to sack most of your team to get its power or basically play 5v6 until the endgame. And unlike the somewhat similar Mega Mawile from Gens past (in terms of being a strong, slow breaker with good typing and powerful priority), Kingambit also has an item slot to work with to increase its longevity if you so desire.

Supreme Overlord's reverse sweep potential obviously pushes it further. While I don't think full stacks is totally realistic for every endgame scenario, 3 allies fainted is enough to do stupid things since that's a free Life Orb. And 1 stack isn't unreasonable even early game depending on your team structure and play style.

Tera obviously makes things more complicated but ultimately doesn't change the core issues of good typing + bulk + power + priority pushed over the edge by Supreme Overlord.

If I find the time to ladder I'll probably vote to ban it.

 

[658Greninja]

If you let any Uber into a tier for almost a year, we will adapt. That's just Pokemon, and this has been proven with insane bullshit that in retrospect being allowed for so long in old tiers was insane.

Zygarde in Crown Tundra? Offensively out-maneuver with Choice Band Triple Axel Weavile, bro. Just run Substitute on half your team, Glare Sub isn't a problem. Run Ice Beam on Clefable, lol. Run Scale Shot Garchomp and just play better, easy. Landorus-T pivot into an Ice attacker. Safeguard Alolan-Ninetales can support a team for Glare once it switches out for several turns, duh. Lum Berry Surging Strikes Urshifu is a good answer guys! Tapu Fini can beat it back once!

Kingambit is arguably harder to check than some of the Gen 9 Ubers. Shit, Kingambit is still a great Pokemon without Tera, Regieleki is literally bad without something you might want to use on other Pokemon. Volcarona is arguably just as checked by things such as Encore spam and scouting, and that goes for most setup sweepers. Scream Tail Encore is one of the few times I will not judge an Encore user as something for Kingambit, because it is also just genuinely good, and it could sit on Espathra for days and force Tera's early, or just let you easily beat it.

Annihilape can be revenge killed as long as you know its Tera pretty reliably via the plethora of fast Special Attackers in the tier, and not attacking it when you don't need to can really slow it down.

Point not being that we should unban Ubers, but because Ubers are not something that are inherently uncheckable by the means of OU. Shit, in Ubers right now Skeledirge is ranked higher than most Ubers, at A. Toxapex at A-, Corviknight ranked at the same tier as Flutter Mane, Samurott-Hisui ranked higher than a lot of Arceus forms...

OU is a tier of good Pokemon that are good. And being good Pokemon, even with the entire dex unleashed, non-Ubers very often rise up to check Ubers. What I'm saying is that Kingambit being checked by OU by some few sets on some Pokemon is not a showing that the Pokemon is not an Ubers-level threat, but that it is. The fact that so much of teambuilding nowadays revolves around checking Kingambit in any ways you can fit, more than some entire teamstyles, shows that Kingambit is a Pokemon that is unhealthy for the metagame, even if it is "checked".


Adaptation is expected and possible for Ubers, and that is what happened here, we let an Uber in for a long time, and banned other Uber-worthy threats from the metagame, and now it is alone or almost alone.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. The difference between letting an Uber like Zacian into the tier and Gambit.

Zacian has like what? 2 consistent checks in the whole tier? Skele and Quag, even then they die to Tera Dark Crunch or 2HKOd by Trailblaze.

Gambit as previously mentioned, has notable counterplay in the forms of checks like Tusks, Samu, Molt, Wisp, Encore, etc. The checks themselves are viable and have other purposes in the builder other than checking it. The whole reason Seismitoad was in everyone’s team back in Pre-DLC SS was because Toad was the only consistent check to Dracovish.

As for the calcs, this is assuming Gambit is healthy and every mon on its side is dead. If Gambit is tasked with switching into Glowking, ghosts, and other mons, its gonna get chipped throughout a game. Which means those 2HKOs become OHKOs and so on. If they preserve Gambit for the lategame, the strat is to preserve your checks as much as possible. Like don’t sack your Hex Pult early, save it for later so it can wisp Gambit. In a last mon scenario, if you have a Valiant and a mon that threatens an OHKO on Gambit, Gambit will never go Sucker as long as Valiant is still alive, because it will just get locked into Encore and lose the game. This type of gameplan can apply to any offensive threat. If your Garg and Glowking get weakened to the point where they can’t check Zapdos anymore, you’re gonna get clapped by it. The reason Encore/Trick/Substiute was mentioned is cause it makes the Gambit user not go Unga Bunga with Sucker Punch.

It is also worth noting that Gambit needs a SD boost or Tera Dark to OHKO some of these offensive threats

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 210-247 (61.9 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 246-291 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And even then

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 173-204 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 194-229 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 141-166 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

It isn’t always the case, and if Gambit is Tera Dark, then it is not beating Zama, offensive Tusks, or Valiant like it would with Tera Flying or Fairy. It also traces back to the opportunity cost I mentioned in the Tera discussion thread.

 

[Alternator]

Another wall of useless calcs.
You can't take checks for base Gambit, and then waste your lunch break calc'ing Tera Gambit sets.
Tera Flying Gambit loses to Bax, Zap, Zama, Dozo, Hands, etc.
"Counterplay is to not let it come in healthy and set up, not so much stopping it after setting up, at least with one mon."
This can be said about several mons in the tier right now, not a valid argument.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 415-489 (111.8 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 182-216 (45.5 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 258-306 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Baxcalibur depends on how much damage Kingambit took from whatever forced out the tera-Flying, because even with a Choice Band it's only doing half. The second calc for Bax is from the Substitute set, which should get a free turn subbing up into a Sucker Punch and get a chance to use the stronger Icicle Crash. Going for a boost on the Sub set leads to a prediction war, and whoever out-predicts wins.


+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 393-463 (102.3 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 310-366 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 210-248 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 442-522 (137.6 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zapdos is OHKO'd by Sucker Punch unless it's max/max, which barely staves off the OHKO but cannot kill in return. Offensive Zapdos OHKOs, in case Kingambit suffers a full paralysis or was stalled out of Sucker Punch PP.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 192-226 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 363-427 (93.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tera Steel Zamazenta: 384-453 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tera Steel Zamazenta: 181-213 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 179-211 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The default ID Zamazenta set loses, though a 252/252+ set wins, and if you were bringing it as Kingambit insurance you'd presumably run max/max.


Out of those, only Iron Hands and Dondozo actually win if Kingambit hasn't been forced to use tera-Flying already, so you're looking at needing multiple mons just to answer it.

===

I'm neutral on whether Kingambit is a problem; he's far more manageable if whatever killed the second-to-last mon can lay down big chip on the Swords Dance turn, or if he had to come in to eat a strong hit like a Specs Dragapult Draco, or if you've stacked up a couple layers of hazards. Actually preserving him at full health, while also preserving your tera, while also making sure that when he does come in as the last mon it's into a favorable situation, that positioning does require skill and the sweep is the payoff. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking there's a big pile of mons that can reliably end that sweep once underway, though.

 

[Moyashi]

If Gambit was actually broken, it would have been suspected and banned a long time ago.
This suspect is an appeasement suspect like Zama. The mon won't be banned. You might as well start adapting.

What a ridiculous take. Pokemon can become more potent overtime, and go from something not worthy of being banned to becoming banworthy later. This is exactly what happened with HOME, despite many new pokemon arriving that should help play around it, Gambit still remained staggering in its superiority and usage, and consistency.

Saying Trick isn't serious counterplay is like saying things encore, sub, status, and fishing for Flame Body/Static isn't serious counterplay.

No it's not. Because once per battle plays like trick aren't going to be reliable vs a competent player who can bait the move out and make you waste it. Those other things aren't comparable as they can be used multiple times.

As for your point itself, in Kingambit's case I'd argue it does mean it shouldn't be banned, since it shows there's actual fucking counterplay to it, and that it isn't pulling shit legitimately never run like, i dunno, your own Ice Beam Clefable example.

Counterplay exists, and yet Gambit has a reputation for breaking teams with that counterplay, even forcing multiple checks into teams and STILL being able to win.

 

[Floatstonemafia]

> Actually preserving him at full health, while also preserving your tera, while also making sure that when he does come in as the last mon it's into a favorable situation, that positioning does require skill and the sweep is the payoff.

Issue is that it swings both ways. Keeping kingambit in perfect condition the whole game is hard, but so is keeping your team too. In a lot of cases, Kingambit doesn't even need to go up to +2 to power through a team, just SO at 5 is enough. A lot of it's checks fold for the same reason. Great Tusk can only switch into an iron head, or hazards if no HDB once or twice before it becomes a speedbump to kingambit.

Shit like this

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 129-153 (34.7 - 41.2%)

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 153-181 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery -

It doesn't seen like much, but if curse dondonzo isn't packing rest, this is a major shift in the math towards Kingambit if push comes to shove and you have to fight through a SO 5 Kingambit since body press does not ohko even before tera without a curse boost or full defensive ev investment. With hazards up switching into an iron head SO 1 once means that kingambit SO5 now wins the end game 1v1 in a vaccuum.

It's late game sweeping power is insane, but I think a lot of people forget that because of it's bulk and great typing, it's actually really easy to sneak into the middle of a game and start beating it's checks down.

 

[ant4456]

I think you misunderstood what I meant. The difference between letting an Uber like Zacian into the tier and Gambit.

Zacian has like what? 2 consistent checks in the whole tier? Skele and Quag, even then they die to Tera Dark Crunch or 2HKOd by Trailblaze.

Gambit as previously mentioned, has notable counterplay in the forms of checks like Tusks, Samu, Molt, Wisp, Encore, etc. The checks themselves are viable and have other purposes in the builder other than checking it. The whole reason Seismitoad was in everyone’s team back in Pre-DLC SS was because Toad was the only consistent check to Dracovish.

As for the calcs, this is assuming Gambit is healthy and every mon on its side is dead. If Gambit is tasked with switching into Glowking, ghosts, and other mons, its gonna get chipped throughout a game. Which means those 2HKOs become OHKOs and so on. If they preserve Gambit for the lategame, the strat is to preserve your checks as much as possible. Like don’t sack your Hex Pult early, save it for later so it can wisp Gambit. In a last mon scenario, if you have a Valiant and a mon that threatens an OHKO on Gambit, Gambit will never go Sucker as long as Valiant is still alive, because it will just get locked into Encore and lose the game. This type of gameplan can apply to any offensive threat. If your Garg and Glowking get weakened to the point where they can’t check Zapdos anymore, you’re gonna get clapped by it. The reason Encore/Trick/Substiute was mentioned is cause it makes the Gambit user not go Unga Bunga with Sucker Punch.

It is also worth noting that Gambit needs a SD boost or Tera Dark to OHKO some of these offensive threats

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 210-247 (61.9 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 246-291 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And even then

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 173-204 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 194-229 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 141-166 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

It isn’t always the case, and if Gambit is Tera Dark, then it is not beating Zama, offensive Tusks, or Valiant like it would with Tera Flying or Fairy. It also traces back to the opportunity cost I mentioned in the Tera discussion thread.

Dracovish had more real defensive answers than Kingambit does currently. Full PhysDef Pex with Baneful Bunker could put it on a timer, Lapras was a tech with Water Absorb + Freeze Dry, Dragapult could come in one single time on Fishious Rend, obviously not Dragon moves which it didn't want to click unless against Seismitoad, etc. Offensively, Dragapult and Zeraora could do well against it and priority with things like Bisharp could help the match-up immensely. Dracovish is broken, and so is Kingambit. Currently, every Kingambit defensive answer is Schrodinger's Tera unless it is max PhysDef Dondozo.

Just because you can play around Kingambit does not mean it is healthy or balanced, just as you could play around Dracovish. More easily than Kingambit, I'd add, you either had the Pokemon that beat it or you didn't.

Sucker Punch with Leftovers can help Kingambit get free recovery throughout the game, or maybe just know what you are going to use your Kingambit for.

Having to keep several Pokemon alive against one because it can beat back all conventional checks anyways is not a good presence in the meta. The reason I mention chip on one single Pokemon is exactly that: Sometimes, not uncommonly Kingambit needs literally 10-40% chip on one single Pokemon as its wincon, and that's it.

Calcing no SD is laughable because it is getting a Swords Dance boost in the vast majority of games. And with defensive Tera it lives a lot of attacks that can be thrown back at it.

 

[LoseToRU?]

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 415-489 (111.8 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 182-216 (45.5 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 258-306 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Baxcalibur depends on how much damage Kingambit took from whatever forced out the tera-Flying, because even with a Choice Band it's only doing half. The second calc for Bax is from the Substitute set, which should get a free turn subbing up into a Sucker Punch and get a chance to use the stronger Icicle Crash. Going for a boost on the Sub set leads to a prediction war, and whoever out-predicts wins.


+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 393-463 (102.3 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 310-366 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Kingambit: 210-248 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 442-522 (137.6 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zapdos is OHKO'd by Sucker Punch unless it's max/max, which barely staves off the OHKO but cannot kill in return. Offensive Zapdos OHKOs, in case Kingambit suffers a full paralysis or was stalled out of Sucker Punch PP.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 192-226 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 363-427 (93.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tera Steel Zamazenta: 384-453 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tera Steel Zamazenta: 181-213 (46.6 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 179-211 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The default ID Zamazenta set loses, though a 252/252+ set wins, and if you were bringing it as Kingambit insurance you'd presumably run max/max.


Out of those, only Iron Hands and Dondozo actually win if Kingambit hasn't been forced to use tera-Flying already, so you're looking at needing multiple mons just to answer it.

===

I'm neutral on whether Kingambit is a problem; he's far more manageable if whatever killed the second-to-last mon can lay down big chip on the Swords Dance turn, or if he had to come in to eat a strong hit like a Specs Dragapult Draco, or if you've stacked up a couple layers of hazards. Actually preserving him at full health, while also preserving your tera, while also making sure that when he does come in as the last mon it's into a favorable situation, that positioning does require skill and the sweep is the payoff. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking there's a big pile of mons that can reliably end that sweep once underway, though.

Again, the argument is base gambit and its checks, and Tera Gambit and its Tera checks.
The Zapdos would be Fighting, the Bax Fairy, etc.
Zama also just spams ID and KOs with +6 BP
A better argument would be the popular Fairy set that's running around. That set definitely has the fewest defensive tera checks, but they are around. The ubiquitous Tusk can always revenge it if you get a little chip.

But yes, thank you for acknowledging it's not a free win button as it's been characterized.
There are mons that clean teams when played right, Gambit is just the best at it.

What a ridiculous take. Pokemon can become more potent overtime, and go from something not worthy of being banned to becoming banworthy later. This is exactly what happened with HOME, despite many new pokemon arriving that should help play around it, Gambit still remained staggering in its superiority and usage, and consistency.



No it's not. Because once per battle plays like trick aren't going to be reliable vs a competent player who can bait the move out and make you waste it. Those other things aren't comparable as they can be used multiple times.



Counterplay exists, and yet Gambit has a reputation for breaking teams with that counterplay, even forcing multiple checks into teams and STILL being able to win.

Na, it's been too long. I've never seen a mon exist for almost a year and then suddenly become broken.
Your second point we can also just agree to disagree. Often do I keep a half dead sack in the back to switch in when Gold/Rotom/Whatever tries to Trick. It's something every Gambit player needs to consider.
Counterplay for base form exist, and new counterplay via defensive Tera is being discovered and adapted to.

Dracovish had more real defensive answers than Kingambit does currently. Full PhysDef Pex with Baneful Bunker could put it on a timer, Lapras was a tech with Water Absorb + Freeze Dry, Dragapult could come in one single time on Fishious Rend, obviously not Dragon moves which it didn't want to click unless against Seismitoad, etc. Offensively, Dragapult and Zeraora could do well against it and priority with things like Bisharp could help the match-up immensely. Dracovish is broken, and so is Kingambit. Currently, every Kingambit defensive answer is Schrodinger's Tera unless it is max PhysDef Dondozo.

Just because you can play around Kingambit does not mean it is healthy or balanced, just as you could play around Dracovish. More easily than Kingambit, I'd add, you either had the Pokemon that beat it or you didn't.

Sucker Punch with Leftovers can help Kingambit get free recovery throughout the game, or maybe just know what you are going to use your Kingambit for.

Having to keep several Pokemon alive against one because it can beat back all conventional checks anyways is not a good presence in the meta. The reason I mention chip on one single Pokemon is exactly that: Sometimes, not uncommonly Kingambit needs literally 10-40% chip on one single Pokemon as its wincon, and that's it.

Calcing no SD is laughable because it is getting a Swords Dance boost in the vast majority of games. And with defensive Tera it lives a lot of attacks that can be thrown back at it.

Dracovish did not have more defensive answers bro. Smh.
Skipping the middle gibberish.
It's funny how Gambit always seems to get a SD, yet is always a max HP when we calc lol.
-
Final thoughts, let's just get reqs and vote.
Gambit is right on the line of being broken, I won't argue that; and like Tera, which is also on that line, you simply just pick the side you want to be on. No one is changing their mind via discourse. I would put money on it not being banned, however.
Like Srn pointed out, Pao, although banned, got a comically low Ban % vote in relation to how obscenely broken it was. It should have gotten a 90% or higher but it only got 69%. Y'all think Gambit is more OP than Pao?
This is more of an anecdote, but it paints a picture of how unlikely a super majority Gambit ban % is.

 

[658Greninja]

Dracovish had more real defensive answers than Kingambit does currently. Full PhysDef Pex with Baneful Bunker could put it on a timer, Lapras was a tech with Water Absorb + Freeze Dry, Dragapult could come in one single time on Fishious Rend, obviously not Dragon moves which it didn't want to click unless against Seismitoad, etc. Offensively, Dragapult and Zeraora could do well against it and priority with things like Bisharp could help the match-up immensely. Dracovish is broken, and so is Kingambit. Currently, every Kingambit defensive answer is Schrodinger's Tera unless it is max PhysDef Dondozo.

No it did not. You would have had no reason to run fucking Lapras on a team if it weren’t for Vish. Mons like Vaporeon and Toad might do one other thing, but the only reason you’re running it is cause of Vish.

You run Tusk not because of Gambit, but because its the best (and one of the few) forms of hazard removal in the tier that can also be a secondary wincon with BU + Spin.

You run Wisp on Cinder not just cause of Gambit, you run it cause it cripples mons like Tusk, Dnite, Moon, and Samu.

You run Encore on Valiant not cause it makes Gambit hesitate to click Sucker or SD, but because its just a really good move. Encore has the added benefit of punishing recovery attempts or setup from other mons like Bax, Garg, Dozo, and Zama.

You’re not losing anything from using these mons or options. With Vish it was either running Toad, slapping Baneful on Pex, or running fringe shit. The two mons are not comparable.

Calcing no SD is laughable because it is getting a Swords Dance boost in the vast majority of games. And with defensive Tera it lives a lot of attacks that can be thrown back at it.

Again, I stated that Gambit doesn’t have many safe switch ins outside of passive mons. Pult can cripple it with Wisp and many other mons threaten with 2HKOs or OHKOs. Also worth mentioning that even with SD and Tera Flying, its still not beating BU Tusk.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 204+ Def Great Tusk: 183-216 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Someone mentioned that Gambit OHKOs Tran with Sucker after an SD and Supreme Overlord boosts but uh…Did I mention that Tran can slot in Wisp? Did I mention Tran can Tera to avoid the Sucker kill? Did I mention that Tran can also run Flame Body?

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Heatran: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just some things to consider.

 

[Moyashi]

Na, it's been too long. I've never seen a mon exist for almost a year and then suddenly become broken.

Landorus Incarnate in gen5 lasted throughout BW1 despite straddling the line. And went through XY into ORAS. But that aside, pokemon can go a while because opinions can be split. Kingambit always straddled the line during pre home but people were hesitant to act on it due to the limited dex and how it also helped keep checked some pokemon. Now that the dex expanded, it's easier to justify acting on it especially as it's only shown to have gotten better, and keeps improving.

 

[Eelstartega]

I had to do a second post because I felt it was relevant here

The "Is necessary for the tier" discourse

A big argument for the tier is that "Kingambit is holding the tier together" aka is a pillar of OU like Gholdengo, Great Tusk, Gen 3-5 Ttar or Gen 6-8 Landorus-T. This is just not true. To demonstrate this I'll take a look at what an actual OU pillar is, Great Tusk:

• It has the unique Fighting + Ground typing.
  • In practice that means is immune to electric moves, resists u-turn, knock off and is one of the few selected ones to outheal stealth rock damage with leftovers.
• It has great power from the physical side and physical bulk
• It has bad special bulk and middling speed
• Its hability can boost attack 30% or speed 50% under the sun or with a one-time use item. Also defense but no one uses that.
• It packs access to rapid spin and knock off, and it can also set rocks. Offensively is unremarcable but still respectable due to bulk up.

That gives Great Tusk lots of clear niches no other mon can say it has

1. Is THE Spinner who can beat Gholdengo reliably and isn't a laughing stock.
2. Is one of the best answers against dark types available.
3. Alongside Iron Valiant, is a Knock off user that Fighting and Dark types don't want to switch into, making it a reliable item remover.
4. Can be a bonified wincondition on grindy games due to rapid spin + bulk up, forcing enemy reaction.
5. Is a bulky ground type. That niche has been good in OU SINCE GEN 1's Rhydon.
6. Is one of Sun's best allies due to giving them an unique typing who covers some of Sun's usual weaknesses.

This is why Great Tusk is the strongest overall pokémon in OU, but the lack of special bulk, weakness to the common water and fairy, a somewhat serious 4MSS syndrome and the huge amount of unique niches it can fill makes it a positive addition to the tier.
Using moonblast Iron valiant/enamorus, Hydro pump Rotom-Wash/Walking Wake or Future sight G-Slowking is not some sort of wasted moveslot or teammate, is just their optimal move on very good pokémon in OU who just happens to hit Great tusk hard, as well as other mons some of those Great Tusk checks. You have to consider Great Tusk when building a team but not really to go that out of your way, because Huricanne Zapdos is also useful for Amoonguss, Zamazenta, Sneasler, and the other 7 OU's bulky ground types.

Now, let's take a look at Kingambit, the 2nd strongest mon in OU.

• It has the unique Dark + Steel typing.
  • In practice that only means is a pre-gen 6 Steel type who isn't as effective against fairies but has Dark STAB.
• It has great power from the physical side and great physical bulk
• It has good special bulk but bad speed
• Its hability can boost attack depending on allies fainted.
• It packs STABs, Swords dance, Sucker punch and ocassional Low Kick.

... That's quite straight forward, almost as it was a gen 2 mon. I hope that's different in the niche section

1. It has swords dance + priority to be a solid lategame cleaner.
2. Is a dark type with a good matchup against fairy and opposing dark types.
3. Is the best answer to opposing setup sweepers, most notably the infamous calm mind + stored power sets of Cresselia.
4. It is a reliable answer to Gholdengo, as well as amazing against dragapult.
5. It's a knock off user who can threat fair... oh wait, it lost knock off going to gen 9.

That's not as much as with Great tusk, which makes sense when you remember it has only 5 moves used in regular OU, 3 of which being generic attacks. It gets worse once you examine the meta and realize some things.

1. Swords dance + Priority isn't that unique. We have other mons who can boost their attack and then use priority to clean lategame, most notably Baxcalibur and Dragonite. Hisuan Samurott does roughly the same and Dragapult doesn't even need priority. Not to mention STAB +2 Sucker punch from 135 attack and potential overlord boosts is a big reason why we're here today.
2. Is not that reliable against gholdengo. Focus Blast and 50 speed means it can force tera and even lose a 1v1 if sucker punch goes wrong. Focus blast is common enough to not really be worth risking a clean switch.
3. Its existance makes ARGUABLY HARDER to check Dragapult. As I've stated before, Kingambit Hard Checks/Counters 12 OU-relevant mons: Dragapult, Both Slowkings, Meowscarada, Amoonguss, Toxapex, Moltres-Galar, Cresselia, Enamorus-T, Hatterene, Hoopa-Unbound and Scream Tail. If you paid attention you'll notice something: A lot of those countered can actually check a lot of Dragapult forms but are defeated due to Kingambit.
4. There's still ways of defeating double ghost combos without Kingambit. Ursaluna exists for example, and so does Ting-Lu who can OHKO Dragapult if Adamant, there's lots of good fairy types like booster energy Iron Valiant or Enamorus, fire types like Heatran or Cinderace for Gholdengo, Amoonguss and Slowking-G are bulky enough to survive 2 draco meteors if invested, and burning a tera to defeat a dangerous wallbreaker is worth it, not to mention some OU-viable dark types pushed down to UU like Meowscarada. OU was able to manage Dragapult before and now we have even more tools to do so.

The only thing it's left is that is an unique niche has to be its hability of punishing setup sweepers like no one else. But even then there's a catch: The most common setup sweeper is Kingambit, so by definition Kingambit is not doing a good job at holding setup sweeps because it's causing those setup sweeps itself in a game-to-game basis.

I'll be back in August 1st to see how an actual somewhat stable gen 9 OU meta looks like instead of whatever was the abomination we had during the first two weeks of june.

 

[658Greninja]

Its existance makes ARGUABLY HARDER to check Dragapult. As I've stated before, Kingambit Hard Checks/Counters 12 OU-relevant mons: Dragapult, Both Slowkings, Meowscarada, Amoonguss, Toxapex, Moltres-Galar, Cresselia, Enamorus-T, Hatterene, Hoopa-Unbound and Scream Tail. If you paid attention you'll notice something: A lot of those countered can actually check a lot of Dragapult forms.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 248 HP / 72- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 320-380 (88.1 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 279-331 (91.7 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 282-332 (63.5 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 284-336 (96.9 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 328-388 (102.1 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Enamorus-Therian: 163-193 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 320-378 (100.6 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 222-264 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 120 HP / 236 SpD Scream Tail: 236-282 (58.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

No.

but are defeated due to Kingambit.

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 504-592 (126 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Enamorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 192-228 (48 - 57%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 1096-1292 (274 - 323%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 188-222 (47 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres-Galar: 162-192 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also no.

 

[Eelstartega]

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 248 HP / 72- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 320-380 (88.1 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 279-331 (91.7 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 282-332 (63.5 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 284-336 (96.9 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 328-388 (102.1 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Enamorus-Therian: 163-193 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 320-378 (100.6 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 222-264 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 120 HP / 236 SpD Scream Tail: 236-282 (58.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

No.

1. I said MOST of them, not all. I know scream tail will not be a good check.
2. You're running oddly suboptimal sets for this situation, like leftovers on Enamorus-T over boots, Meowscarada not using sucker Punch or physically bulky amoonguss.
3. Tera Exists.

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 504-592 (126 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Enamorus-Therian Earth Power vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 192-228 (48 - 57%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 1096-1292 (274 - 323%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 188-222 (47 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres-Galar: 162-192 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also no.

1. Hard check does not mean counter, it means "counter unless X" and said X is being full health or not having weird coverage.
2. Meowscarada runs Low Kick less than 8% of times considering it's not even in the list of moves. if that's the case then it's completely walled by Kingambit.
3. Is more of a 36.4% chance of 2HKO and 70% of OHKO, although due to confusion is more like a 48/52.
4. You're right on Enamorus. I had those numbers wrong for some reason and said Enamorus only dealt 38-46% damage for some reason.

And of course you'll ignore the "Burning a tera to defeat a dangerous wallbreaker is worth it" part. Matches are no longer just use a move or switch to receive better the incoming attack, but now also has now type changes as a third option for either fix type or to have a better matchup on the short or long term.