The Ride Pager is literally just HMs that don’t waste a move slot. Is your contention that “not wasting a move slot” is what’s lame about it?are either lamer versions of HMs at best (Ride Pager or whatever it was called in SM)
The Ride Pager is literally just HMs that don’t waste a move slot. Is your contention that “not wasting a move slot” is what’s lame about it?are either lamer versions of HMs at best (Ride Pager or whatever it was called in SM)
I mean HMs were only a problem because most of them were crap.yeah now that's a truly unpopular opinion. i do think physical obstacles that could only be overcome with badges allowing your mons to do special things is better than not having anything, or having those lame checkpoints alola had, but i certainly don't miss wasting a not easily replaceable move slot on them
even strength was fairly usable in the games the HM shows up early enough! but the non-replaceable part really bugs me, even foe the good moves and even if i know why it's like that. it just feels like too much commitment to a move slot at a point in the game your mons are still learning new movesI mean HMs were only a problem because most of them were crap.
Surf and, post-Physical/Special Split, Waterfall were basically the go to Water moves, and Fly was decent enough.
There's more to HMs than just the basic mechanical elements. For all their faults, it is nice to feel like you're actually working with your Pokemon to overcome obstacles in the overworld, particularly when you're in some super remote dungeon. To me, the Ride Pager is very sterile by comparison and makes the world feel smaller. Arguably, this serves the setting: you're a kid undergoing the Island Challenge and there are already guardrails everywhere to direct you, so maybe it makes sense that your travel options are these official worker Pokemon with safety harnesses that can always come to you immediately no matter where you are. I wouldn't say it's a direct upgrade, though.The Ride Pager is literally just HMs that don’t waste a move slot. Is your contention that “not wasting a move slot” is what’s lame about it?
The fact that HMs are actual moves is what makes them so much more interesting imo. They aren't just "the thing you use to bypass an obstacle", they're "a move which you can actually use in battle that also serves the purpose of overworld exploration". It gives them a much more multipurpose feel which I quite like. Cobalt Empoleon pretty much expressed what I feel in their first paragraph.The Ride Pager is literally just HMs that don’t waste a move slot. Is your contention that “not wasting a move slot” is what’s lame about it?
In Gens 1-4 I agree that it would have been better to have HMs just be deletable (along with better measures to prevent softlocks ofc), because any move you delete or decline to learn is either lost forever or requires resources to replace, so there's still an interesting trade-off. From Gen 5 onwards, though, reusable TMs make things awkward. If you can repeatedly delete and replace HMs (and field move TMs) with TM moves, then those field moves are functionally just Key Items with extra steps to use them. When I've played fangames with freely deletable HMs and reusable TMs+free Move Relearner services, navigation becomes this tedious process of learning the field move only when you need to use it and then immediately switching back to the optimal battle moveset.HMs themselves are more of an issue. HMs being undeletable(even in games with the move deleter people still think of them as permanent) makes folks unlikely to want to risk a moveslot, and the specific moves used for HMs often sucking or having overlapping types makes it worse.
This is more or less how field moves work in the Monster Hunter Stories games and it works well there most of the time so I wouldn't be opposed to this as a replacement for HMs.maybe field moves should be exactly that - moves for the field, separate from your 4 battle moves, but that you still need to teach to one of your mons and can't be removed. maybe a limit of 1 or 2 field moves per mon? i am just spitballing here
Fly is decently usable in battle, but it has its own issue in that it basically forces you to have a Flying-type (or the occasional non-Flying-type that does learn it) on your team in order to make use of fast-travel… either that, or you have to pull something that can learn it out of your PC every time you want to fly somewhere, which isn’t very, well… fast.Fly was decent enough.
People say this a lot, and fair enough to those who feel that way, but it’s never really resonated with me. I like puzzle-solving, but being obligated to teach a certain move that my Pokémon is going to be stuck with for the duration of the dungeon in order to solve the puzzle doesn’t give me a satisfying feeling of cooperation; it just feels inconvenient.There's more to HMs than just the basic mechanical elements. For all their faults, it is nice to feel like you're actually working with your Pokemon to overcome obstacles in the overworld, particularly when you're in some super remote dungeon.
I think Hugin covered my thoughts on this fairly comprehensively. I think moves having field effects is cool and a nice way to add dimension to certain moves, but when those kinds of moves are required for progression, it turns into a headache.The fact that HMs are actual moves is what makes them so much more interesting imo. They aren't just "the thing you use to bypass an obstacle", they're "a move which you can actually use in battle that also serves the purpose of overworld exploration". It gives them a much more multipurpose feel
Yeah that's fair; it's definitely a little impersonal. I imagine having more unique sprites would've meant drastically reducing the number of Pokemon that could learn these HMs (which would make them feel even worse as an RPG element) and, in the case of Strength, limiting the design space for puzzles because of the extra space taken up by a second sprite.On top of that, part of the reason why I don’t feel that sense of connection is also because the presentation with HMs has always been pretty lacking — ironically, it wasn’t until the Ride Pager that you actually saw the specific Pokémon performing the task. Like, when you use Strength, you get a quick glance at your Pokémon’s sprite, but then it’s you who’s kicking the boulder around. With Machamp Shove, you see the Machamp helping you and putting in the work. With Surf and Fly, it’s just a generic sprite. Nothing to differentiate from a random Lapras or bird Pokémon that could have just been sent to you via something like the Pager. Cut, Rock Smash, Defog, etc.? Just that quick glance at the sprite, then the HM action is applied. No real action on the part of your Pokémon.
You might think I'm just being contrary, but my answer to these questions is unironically 'yes'Are they really feeling closer to that random Lv5 Zigzagoon that they’re just dragging around in order to get through a cave and putting no other investment into? Do they feel like that’s a satisfying way to solve puzzles in coordination with their Pokémon?
Zigzagoon is an interesting reference point. Because in RSE, the optimal HM user until the latter water routes is Linoone. Strength, Rock Smash, Cut, Thief, Pickup(maybe Surf). And because it needs to be lvl 20 for Strength, you should catch a Zigzagoon early and actually use it for route-clearing purposes until it evolves, and probably keep using it for a while after that(In E, Pickup gets better with levelup, Thief is extremely useful against bosses, and in the midgame base-80 STAB and 100 speed is nothing to sneeze at). So the HM user you're taking through Victory Road may well be a lvl 32 Linoone that carried you against Wattson and stole Flannery's White Herb. And sure he's fallen off, can't battle anymore, but he's still fulfilling a key team function. That's an excellent story.Plus… I think the existence and commonality of HM slaves says something about how strong of a bond players typically build with their Pokémon on the basis of HMs. Are they really feeling closer to that random Lv5 Zigzagoon that they’re just dragging around in order to get through a cave and putting no other investment into? Do they feel like that’s a satisfying way to solve puzzles in coordination with their Pokémon?
So, Rock Smash rocks exist in the game for 2 reasons. They're not puzzles or anything else, Rock Smash is just a check for "Have you progressed far enough in the game to get past this point" and "Have you devoted 1/24 moveslots to Rock Smash"*. And the latter effect is designed to make your team worse. You're exploring with a bit of a handicap, which especially in deep dungeons where you could theoretically run low on HP/PP/items/etc, matters a lot.Letting you use field moves after a certain point in the game is standard HM implementation, so that was fine. I think it's partially that they felt just like a waste of time with the animation of a random Bibarel popping up every time you needed to break a rock. Game, I don't know or care about this Pokémon, you don't need to show it to me.
Rock Smash and Cut have always been the worst field moves by a mile. Cut is thoroughly useless beyond being a check no matter how you slice it.So, Rock Smash rocks exist in the game for 2 reasons. They're not puzzles or anything else, Rock Smash is just a check for "Have you progressed far enough in the game to get past this point" and "Have you devoted 1/24 moveslots to Rock Smash"*. And the latter effect is designed to make your team worse. You're exploring with a bit of a handicap, which especially in deep dungeons where you could theoretically run low on HP/PP/items/etc, matters a lot.
BDSP doesn't do that. Which, fine, that's a choice. But that means that MOST of the smashable rocks in the original game are now useless. If you're in an area past when Rock Smash unlocks, you clearly have the move, so why are they making you check again? With the exception of literally inside Oreburgh Gate, every single Rock Smash rock in BDSP serves no purpose.
*Which is my least-favorite field move effect. Cut, Waterfall, Rock Smash, all are basically the same field effect and are all terrible.
Waterfall is slightly better imo because waterfalls are integrated more naturally into the Pokemon overworld and the idea of scaling one is conceptually much cooler than cutting down a tree, but overall I totally agree.*Which is my least-favorite field move effect. Cut, Waterfall, Rock Smash, all are basically the same field effect and are all terrible.
Waterfall is slightly better imo because waterfalls are integrated more naturally into the Pokemon overworld and the idea of scaling one is conceptually much cooler than cutting down a tree, but overall I totally agree.
What's crazy is that it doesn't take much for an HM to not just feel like another Cut reskin. Strength's primary use case is to push a single boulder out of the way to open a path, but the few puzzles you get per game really help make it more interesting. I feel like it'd be super easy to do the same for Cut and Rock Smash
Oops, brain fart. I meant Whirlpool, the HM move that is so bad it only ever appeared in a single Region.I'm not getting the hate on Waterfall, even though it's been historically unimpressive.
Waterfall and Rock Climb allow for layered exploration, which not only makes the world more interesting but also serves multiple purposes in map design.
I'm pretty sure it used to work like this.Waterfall I dislike, but only because they have ignored the best option with it. Let players go down Waterfalls without the move