-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Tournaments SPL XV DPP Discussion
- Thread starter John Madden
- Start date
I'm not buying into this idea that banning Jirachi wouldn't completely unleash Latias and friends.
Even the least invasive option of removing ihead would have huge implications for Tyranitar. What do you think removing the entire mon would do for the tier?
For me, banning Jirachi is thus completely out of the question even as a last resort.
Which is why we really need to push for more control over this tier and find a way to get rid of that stupid uncompetitive steel move (I am ofcourse talking about ddesire).
This requires directing our attention to the steaming pile of rapidash excrement that is smogon politics and I'm hoping to see all of us supporting this when the time comes.
One way or another we will make this great old gen even greater.
Even the least invasive option of removing ihead would have huge implications for Tyranitar. What do you think removing the entire mon would do for the tier?
For me, banning Jirachi is thus completely out of the question even as a last resort.
Which is why we really need to push for more control over this tier and find a way to get rid of that stupid uncompetitive steel move (I am ofcourse talking about ddesire).
This requires directing our attention to the steaming pile of rapidash excrement that is smogon politics and I'm hoping to see all of us supporting this when the time comes.
One way or another we will make this great old gen even greater.
Alright, lets just do nothing then like usual. Cant believe I wasted my time reading all that shit from someone who doesn't actually want have a discussion.
I love the irony here —someone suggests that the tier is fine (contributing to the discussion), and you immediately rage, shoot them down, and then say that they’re the one who doesn’t want a discussion simply for disagreeing.
Id like a survey to go out to all players who had a single dpp game the last two SPLs, played more than 2 OU games in DPP PL, playing in JCI, etc. something along those lines.
“If given the option to ban Iron Head from DPP OU, would you?”
It seems like the overwhelming majority opinion is yes, we shouldn’t have to work around smogon tiering policy if it’s something that is unanimously desired.
“If given the option to ban Iron Head from DPP OU, would you?”
It seems like the overwhelming majority opinion is yes, we shouldn’t have to work around smogon tiering policy if it’s something that is unanimously desired.
Since the DPP Council bend over backwards to ban Snow Cloak, I really would expect something to be done regarding Jirachi here.
Remember Froslass / Snow Cloak wasn't a problem and nobody wanted to ban it. Look at this thread is an overwhelming amount of people against the ban, and the council just did it anyway for some reason. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-snow-cloak.3721756/#post-9898026
The only evidence of Snow Cloak being uncompetitive was submitted by Excal stomping some randoms on the ladder. The post by DeepBlueC did not explain anything and the whole DPP community was against it. Just read through the whole thread again, the whole Snow Cloak ban fiasco was a disaster
After SPL 2024, there are so many DPP players say how uncompetitive Jirachi is. If there are this many people against Jirachi, wanting to ban it or Iron Head, and the council does not do something, then one must wonder what are the councils doing?
DPP tiering decisions are starting to look like BW tiering decisions
Remember Froslass / Snow Cloak wasn't a problem and nobody wanted to ban it. Look at this thread is an overwhelming amount of people against the ban, and the council just did it anyway for some reason. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-snow-cloak.3721756/#post-9898026
The only evidence of Snow Cloak being uncompetitive was submitted by Excal stomping some randoms on the ladder. The post by DeepBlueC did not explain anything and the whole DPP community was against it. Just read through the whole thread again, the whole Snow Cloak ban fiasco was a disaster
After SPL 2024, there are so many DPP players say how uncompetitive Jirachi is. If there are this many people against Jirachi, wanting to ban it or Iron Head, and the council does not do something, then one must wonder what are the councils doing?
DPP tiering decisions are starting to look like BW tiering decisions
I think if they don't have an issue banning evasive stuff like bright powder, and garchomp's sand veil, I can see an argument for banning iron head + serene grace.
Feel free to disagree with me but I think that there should be a Weather + Evasion ability clause to allow Froslass and to a lesser extent Dugtrio. Both Pokemons are decent leads that have great speed tiers and set hazards.
Before people say that Dugtrio would be bad because of Tyranitar is so common. No one is forcing you to use Tyranitar. It’s the equivalent of complaining about Magnet Pull in ADV OU. Also Dugtrio isn’t that good without Arena Trap.
Dugtrio sets like this are perfectly fine for the metagame and allow for new creativity when using hyper offense leads.
Dugtrio (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Reversal
I'm not going to rehash my arguments on Froslass but you can read about it here
On the topic of Jirachi, banning Jirachi as a whole is bad because Jirachi is the best role compressor in the tier, and it would be impossible to replace. None of the “replacements” for Jirachi have U-Turn or Healing Wish.
Before people say that Dugtrio would be bad because of Tyranitar is so common. No one is forcing you to use Tyranitar. It’s the equivalent of complaining about Magnet Pull in ADV OU. Also Dugtrio isn’t that good without Arena Trap.
Dugtrio sets like this are perfectly fine for the metagame and allow for new creativity when using hyper offense leads.
Dugtrio (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Reversal
I'm not going to rehash my arguments on Froslass but you can read about it here
On the topic of Jirachi, banning Jirachi as a whole is bad because Jirachi is the best role compressor in the tier, and it would be impossible to replace. None of the “replacements” for Jirachi have U-Turn or Healing Wish.
I think Jirachi without Iron Head is a healthy part of DPP - we can see that in Superachi and I think defensive / utility sets could also work without it.
Since nothing else (Scarf Scizor I guess) uses Iron Head, the collateral damage would also be minimal.
An Iron Head ban would also make Knock Off a bit less impactful.
Going after flinch moves in general sounds like too much though - Waterfall is really important for a lot of mons, and 20% is something entirely different than 60%.
Since nothing else (Scarf Scizor I guess) uses Iron Head, the collateral damage would also be minimal.
An Iron Head ban would also make Knock Off a bit less impactful.
Going after flinch moves in general sounds like too much though - Waterfall is really important for a lot of mons, and 20% is something entirely different than 60%.
I'm sorry but I can't seem to understand why Iron Head can't be banned, while Baton Pass can. If we want to look at examples from other gens, Swagger and Assist are banned in multiple gens (RS, BW, XY) and Last Respects and Shed Tail are banned from the current SV.
Sure, Baton Pass is obviously broken and Iron Head is much more controversial, but the possibility of a ban should either exist for any move or for none.
That being said, I'm not a tiering expert so please let me know if there is a sensible explanation for this.
Since tiering policy is brought up, let's examine it: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/
This is the tiering council which I assume if these are reasonable people, the DPP council can talk to them about this case (Jirachi Iron Head):
So what is the purpose of tiering policy?
Then we come to what exactly what to do with Jirachi:
Second of all, are these tiering policy words from god that we can never question? Or should we treat these tiering framework as guidelines and use our own critical thinking on a case by case dependent? Quote from SoulWind, one of the best player to touch the game, "people that would sell their mother before breaking tiering policy." Aren't these Tiering Council real people and not robots? If the DPP council can explain to the Tiering Council that the DPP community thinks Iron Head is broken, not Jirachi, what is wrong with banning Iron Head?
It sounds like the DPP council refuse to consider Iron Head alone / Iron Head on Jirachi because of the tiering council / higher ups / tiering policy framework said so. That means we are either stuck with uncompetitive Jirachi paraflinching people, or have to ban Jirachi straight out even though Jirachi without Iron Head is a healthy part of the meta game. And the DPP council are giving the community two choice: banning Jirachi outright or do nothing.
Most people would say that the meta is NOT better if we don't ban Jirachi, or if we ban Jirachi outright. The community knows that to create a better DPP metagame, Iron Head is the only thing that needs to be ban. But we are not given this option. I must remind us all once again, the purpose of tiering policy is to create the best and healthy meta game where skilled players win. The purpose of tiering policy is NOT "follow this tiering policy words by words"
The strict adhering to arbitrary tiering policy is absolutely ridiculous
Finally, if the tiering policy prevents us from having a good / healthy / competitive metagame, what is the point of tiering policy then? Why do we even have it? It might be time to update these archaic tiering policy.
This is the tiering council which I assume if these are reasonable people, the DPP council can talk to them about this case (Jirachi Iron Head):
So what is the purpose of tiering policy?
- To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time."
- Uncompetitive definition - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
- Unhealthy definition - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent
Then we come to what exactly what to do with Jirachi:
- Ban Iron Head on Jirachi
- Ban Iron Head
- Ban 20% and higher flinch moves
- Ban Jirachi
Second of all, are these tiering policy words from god that we can never question? Or should we treat these tiering framework as guidelines and use our own critical thinking on a case by case dependent? Quote from SoulWind, one of the best player to touch the game, "people that would sell their mother before breaking tiering policy." Aren't these Tiering Council real people and not robots? If the DPP council can explain to the Tiering Council that the DPP community thinks Iron Head is broken, not Jirachi, what is wrong with banning Iron Head?
It sounds like the DPP council refuse to consider Iron Head alone / Iron Head on Jirachi because of the tiering council / higher ups / tiering policy framework said so. That means we are either stuck with uncompetitive Jirachi paraflinching people, or have to ban Jirachi straight out even though Jirachi without Iron Head is a healthy part of the meta game. And the DPP council are giving the community two choice: banning Jirachi outright or do nothing.
Most people would say that the meta is NOT better if we don't ban Jirachi, or if we ban Jirachi outright. The community knows that to create a better DPP metagame, Iron Head is the only thing that needs to be ban. But we are not given this option. I must remind us all once again, the purpose of tiering policy is to create the best and healthy meta game where skilled players win. The purpose of tiering policy is NOT "follow this tiering policy words by words"
The strict adhering to arbitrary tiering policy is absolutely ridiculous
Finally, if the tiering policy prevents us from having a good / healthy / competitive metagame, what is the point of tiering policy then? Why do we even have it? It might be time to update these archaic tiering policy.
Tiering admins angle is that BP, Last Respects, Swagger and Shed Tail are moves that have multiple abusers while Iron Head has only one: Jirachi. This goes against their policy that has been colloquially referred to as "Build-A-Bear"ing to preserve a Pokemon. Agree or disagree with it, the council has their hands tied when it comes to complex banning Iron Head + Serene Grace, for which we'd def open up a greater conversation with the community if we had the ability to.
The regurgitated argument that because we banned Snow Cloak, we should take action on Jirachi is misguided. Snow Cloak was some bullshit that changed basically nothing about the metagame. We wanted to improve the complex ban to prevent Froslass from being used alongside Snow Warning, but tiering policy administrators vetoed it.
"Remember Froslass / Snow Cloak wasn't a problem and nobody wanted to ban it. Look at this thread is an overwhelming amount of people against the ban, and the council just did it anyway for some reason." - The majority of complaints when it was revisited came after Froslass was banned, not before. Kristyl's post ending the thread gives a better picture of the situation.
Jirachi is a much more complicated topic that top DPP players have divisive opinions on. While many would be in favor of an IH complex ban if we had the choice, most would not be in favor of an outright Jirachi ban, which leads the council to take no action on Jirachi. We've conducted two surveys in a row consisting of the tier's best players that have demonstrated this, and we have no doubt that the result would be the same if/when we do another survey. The only way we consider taking action on Jirachi is if such a survey demonstrates an overwhelming amount of support for a Jirachi ban.
There's a lot of casual talk from players stating we must do something about Jirachi, Clefable, etc. However, there's a silent majority that really enjoys the tier and doesn't want to make a monumental change like banning any of these Pokemon. The surveys state everything we need to know, and just because some players who aren't as much in the weeds complain/discuss potential bans, does not mean there is an overwhelming demand for them that the council is ignoring.
The council serves the community. I would be against an IH complex ban personally but would be more than open to follow the community's wishes and pursue it if we had the option. At this point, discussing an Iron Head + Serene Grace complex ban in the DPP forums is unproductive. We've said on record so many times we can't do anything about it, and unless policy is changed that will remain the same. If you're not thrilled with that outcome, work to change the policy around it. I'm making this post to have this information readily available and clear the misconceptions around the tier's state & the council's role in this.
Please do not bring up an Iron Head ban or anything related to that in this thread from here on out. For the reasons I outlined in this post, your post may be deleted and repeated offenders may be warned.
tl;dr
- Iron Head ban is completely off the table and discussion surrounding it in the DPP forum is unproductive -- such discussions belong in Policy Review
- Snow Cloak ban has exponentially less collateral than a Jirachi/Clefable/etc ban -- comparing these two scenarios is strawmanning and not in good faith
- The DPP council serves the community and guides their actions via curated community/SPL-oriented surveys to gauge tier satisfaction
- Blame tiering policy administration for Iron Head complex ban not being an option and for not being able to improve Snow Cloak complex ban at Froslass's expense. The DPP council took the best actions they could under the circumstances they were given and they are doing a good job
If Iron head is truly off the table the only options to nerf Jirachi Iron Head spam is to vote on banning Jirachi or vote on unbanning something that threatens it like Dugtrio.
There is a 3rd option. Build better.
I also want Jirachi's ihead bullshit gone but that doesn't mean I wanna significantly change the tier to suit my needs.