Griefing

[LonelyNess]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPoKaoJu0m4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUPzN7tp7bQ

So my friends showed me these videos a while back, and I thought they were hliarious at the time... that is until I had something similar happen to me while I was playing the other day. Someone glitched the damn shudder on Gravel Pit and we ended up losing while he laughed his ass off.

So my question, is what do you guys think of this? Sure, it's funny to the passerby, but it's incredibly annoying to the ones it's being done to... not to mention it shows a complete lack of maturity on the part of the offender. I honestly can't think of any intelligent, learned individual condoning this kind of action.

I almost equated this sort of thing to trolling in any anonymous setting... but it's actually quite different. The latter, only affects you if you allow it to bother you... you can quite easily ignore it by simply not reading or responding to the chat. But in the case of griefing, there's nothing you can do in order to "just ignore" it. It immediately affects the game that you're playing. Sure you could say 'just join a different server,' but in some of those games (including Team Fortress 2) it can be detrimental to your statistics if you change servers (as it results in an auto-death). Granted, they are just online stats on a game, but I mean, if I didn't care about that sort of stuff, I wouldn't ladder on Shoddy either. Or play anything recreationally for that matter.

And think about this scenario if you want to continue to say that you can just "switch servers" or "ignore it." What if you're playing a game of football in real life, and your opponents have bribed the referees to not call any penalties on them. They proceed to take advantage of the situation and take the ball from you during your downs, do various illegal moves, etc... basically prevent you from playing the game you set out to play.... you'd be fucking outraged. You'd get your team together and beat the shit out of them (unless you're weaker, but for sake of argument let's assume you're not).

The point I'm trying to make is that I take precious time out of my day to play video games online, and the mere thought that someone believes they are worth enough to rob me of what little free time I have in the day by doing this sort of shit is disgusting. It makes me weep for the state of mankind. Even though it's anonymous, people need to realize that what they do online is happening to actual people, not just lines of data.

 

[monkfish]

If you get that wound up about something as small as this then you have bigger problems than people ruining online games.

 

[AltCtrlPwn]

People like you are the reason griefers do what they do.

 

[Iamslow]

As dumb as this may sound, I really wish people would take they're gaming seriously when it involves other people like this, especially with such a great game like TF2.

Those videos were funny as hell, but when stuff like this happened to me in Brawl and Battle Revolution, it was just a stupid waste of everyone's time that wasn't even funny. Just people slowing the server down.

 

[gorm]

might as well discuss trolling in general

people like trolling for the same reason people like regular rpgs/the internet in general. it doesn't take alot of time, and you get a measurable response (people getting pissed for trolling) given an input that doesn't whole lot of brain power (finding ways to piss people off who "take things to seriously"). It's an easy way to modify your environment with obvious results. you feel powerful. you're messing with people! those suckers!

the anonymity pretty much detaches you from the entire process, so it's just a game. i've trolled before and all it really is is thinking you're smarter than someone and sometimes it's funny but it's essentially always a waste of time from which you are unlikely to gain anything. but then the asme can be said of any rpg

 

[LonelyNess]

@monkfish: Why would you condone the people who feel as though they deserve to ruin someone's online exprience? That kind of mentality is exactly what's wrong in the world. Just because something happens, doesn't mean it's ok. "Dude, people die in wars every day, so shut the fuck up that you're dieing, it happens."

This is obviously an extreme version, but the mentality is the exact same.

@AltCtrlPwn: Just because I am obviously "troll bait" doesn't mean that I somehow "deserve" it. I say the same thing that I say to monkfish, just because trolling / griefing happen, doesn't mean that it's right.

If I didn't take things seriously, I wouldn't play games at all. I'm not playing a game so some asswipe will come on and lock the doors and make my team lose. And I would say that anyone would get pissed off if someone did the same.

If you purchase a game with the intent to play it, then you obviously WANT TO PLAY THE GAME.

The difference between trolling and griefing, is that griefing actually detracts from the game that you're trying to play. Trolling is only centered around pissing someone off through words, where as griefing literally wastes what little free time I have during the day by making the entire game completely unplayable.

 

[IcyMan28]

I still don't understand what is so upsetting about this to you. You said yourself that it was funny as long as it wasn't happening to you. I'd say its karma.

Either way, sorry for your...loss?

 

[monkfish]

lol where did I condone trolling/"griefing"?

all I said was - to paraphrase - get a sense of perspective. your ridiculous war analogy further proves my point.

 

[LonelyNess]

What are you talking about Monkfish? I don't need to "get some perspective." I think you do. Gaming is my hobby, it's every bit as important to me as any other person's hobby... like a painter's work. What would you say to someone who went up and stole someone's brushes and kept him from painting, or ruined his work right before it was done. Would you say "lol, dude, it's just a painting, you should stop taking this shit so seriously."

That's like saying that anything you do for recreation isn't allowed to be taken even the slightest bit seriously, and if you do take it serious, there's obviously something wrong with you.

It's not me who has the messed up mentality.

 

[Morm]

I'll admit it: I've spammed the flamethrower in Enemy Territory in my own spawn just for fun. I've also spawnkilled in ET and posted gay porn in the opposing teams spawn in CS Source.

The reason people do this is because it is fun. If you find it annoying, do it back to them. Soon enough, it turns into a gong show or an admin comes along and ruins everyones fun. By that I mean they stop the fun to allow for a different brand of fun: The PROPER form of fun.

Holy shit also I'm a recreation enthusiast too. It can be annoying, but that's when I switch servers or make friends with the mods.

 

[Kietharr]

Griefing is just fancy talk for trolling a video game. I do it all of the time, it's no big deal. I do it because some times it's more fun than playing a game 'correctly'. It's all about the power, if you're griefing you're in complete control of the situation if there are no moderators present. It causes little to no longterm damage so I don't see the problem, if you don't like it switch servers and stop whining.

 

[AltCtrlPwn]

Just because I am obviously "troll bait" doesn't mean that I somehow "deserve" it. I say the same thing that I say to monkfish, just because trolling / griefing happen, doesn't mean that it's right.

Not saying you deserve it or that it's right, but isn't part of the "fun" in trolling/griefing getting a reaction from everyone, and pissing them all off?

If I didn't take things seriously, I wouldn't play games at all. I'm not playing a game so some asswipe will come on and lock the doors and make my team lose. And I would say that anyone would get pissed off if someone did the same.

Yeah well, shit happens. At least it's just a video game, there are assholes that do worse in person. Also, I used to get pissed off, but that's exactly what they're aiming for and when I realized that I stopped caring -- bitching about it won't get anything done, and the best you can do if it really bothers you is leave.

I've done this before when I've gotten bored of particular games, and it's pretty funny actually. Now when I see someone else doing it, I usually stay for the laughs.

 

[Iamslow]

I'd say if your going to do this at all, screw around with old or bad games that nobody is really playing. If you really liked the games you were greifing, why aren't you just playing it how your supposed to? People go on servers to play games with other players- not to get greifed...

 

[Sunday]

Me and some of my clan friends do this irregularily. With most of the glitches removed, it's hard to do anything really gamebreaking (and we don't have our own server so we can't noclip onder the floor or stuff like that, and everything like Teles to impossible places and most door glitches have been removed). Mostly we end up either organising an Engi-Spam or Heavy-Boxing matches on the bridge in 2-Fort. In pub servers, the atmosphere's not serious. More often that not we get randoms who decide to join us, which is great because the more Heavies the better! We all get a laugh out of it, I'm sure even the medics who go and uber us can see the funny side.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.

EDIT: I'd also like to note that Ubering/healing enemy spies is a lot harder than it looks, since the second they stab someone the medigun swaps targets to the nearest friendly :S

 

[monkfish]

What are you talking about Monkfish? I don't need to "get some perspective." I think you do. Gaming is my hobby, it's every bit as important to me as any other person's hobby... like a painter's work. What would you say to someone who went up and stole someone's brushes and kept him from painting, or ruined his work right before it was done. Would you say "lol, dude, it's just a painting, you should stop taking this shit so seriously."

That's like saying that anything you do for recreation isn't allowed to be taken even the slightest bit seriously, and if you do take it serious, there's obviously something wrong with you.

It's not me who has the messed up mentality.

Jesus you've led a sheltered life haven't you? By "get some perspective" I mean that someone annoying you in an online game is not the end of the world. It's not even more than a slight annoyance. If all you're going to do is whine about it then why bother? What does this whining accomplish? Get over it. Move on. Get a hobby that doesn't rely on people being civil over the internet.

 

[cim]

I'm going to say while LN is taking this a little srriously, he does have a point. This is like saying that tripping someone walking down the hall is okay because it's funny and it's their fault for getting upset and taking it seriously. It shouldn't be happening and you're a dick for doing it.

The difference between this and the fundamental skill of trolling is that trolling is completely opt-in by the trolled.

 

[Minwu]

How is this different from complaining about being cheap?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I suggest playing non-broken games where that kind of abuse is simply not possible. In a well designed game, there are no possible actions by other players that "break" the game. The worst they can do is "mess around" (like spamming taunts in brawl), and that's when you just slaughter them with complete disregard for what they are trying to do.

Of course, they could just hack the games, and yeah, that pretty much kills it. If the game's official hosts can't be bothered to actually stop it, you just have to go to a private server where the people running it will stop it or just play offline where you can prevent cheating easily. Really, the people who seek to ruin games for everyone else are massive jerks, but you have to be smart about it and just seek out venues where they have no opportunity to ruin the game for you. If those venues don't exist, you just have to find another game.

The "get over it" approach is fantastically stupid. You can't actually do much to stop these people, but you do have to do the things that you can do. One of those things is, in the social world that is the internet, greeting people who are out to ruin things for everyone else with complete social rejection. It's really part of the same way you handle trolling. Consistently greet them with disapproval, and be sure to make that effort to communicate to them that you think very lowly of them. Above all, never congratulate anyone for trolling (except for perhaps blatant sarcasm); always talk to people who brag about trolling in a condescending tone that makes it very clear that they are just beneath you. When they meet consistently with that sort of response, it really sucks the fun out of it for trolls. Giving out messages like "get over it" makes the trolls feel like they really do have a place (which is bordering dangerously close on suggesting that anyone likes them!), and that's the totally wrong message.

 

[monkfish]

So AA where did you get your pHd in Trolls and Trolling?

People are different. Most trolls don't care if they get an immediate reaction or not and almost none of them are looking for 'approval' on the internet. More often than not, it's a group of guys having fun by messing with people over the internet, and getting this wound up about it is exactly what they're looking for.

If there's something you can do about it then do it - host a private server to play with friends, or play in regulated tournaments.

If there's nothing you can do about it then post a whiny thread on a forum to make yourself feel bet- I mean, do nothing.

 

[AltCtrlPwn]

This is like saying that tripping someone walking down the hall is okay because it's funny and it's their fault for getting upset and taking it seriously.

It sure is, potential physical injury versus the internet.

 

[LonelyNess]

It's not the act that is similar, it's the state of mind behind it that is similar. It's the mentality that "it's funny to me, so I'm allowed to do it, and if you whine you're just being stupid."

This is the entirely wrong way for a decent human being to think.

 

[CaptKirby]

Some people get pleasure out of cruelty, but doing it in a harmless way. I am sorry, but disrupting an online video game is harmless. If you take it in a way that you are actually mentally distressed, then that is your weakness. You may say 'they are the ones who are weak, immature brats', but their fault is not weakness, merely some form of absurd immaturity. That does not make it an entirely wrong way to think; immaturity and malice are both very natural human feelings! Furthermore, plenty of people engage in cruel acts because it is funny to them, despite the fact it will hurt others. It is terrible if this extends to real life, meaningful occurrences, but not in a video game. If you are paying money, then you have to keep in mind that these other people are probably also playing money (I am not knowledgeable about ways to avoid paying for online games that cost money, though).

 

[tape]

So much for someone who says he's pissed off at how we all are stupid, in different ways/subjects

 

[Darkflagrance]

Well, a mental injury is still an injury, and can result in physiological injuries, as we know from the example of the girl who committed suicide after being told her beloved boyfriend was a construct of the malicious next-door-neighbours's daughter's vindictive mother, or some such.

You can tell people not to be hurt from what evil people do, to deal with it maturely. But at the same time, it does not justify evil acts.

 

[AltCtrlPwn]

Well, a mental injury is still an injury

Then maybe you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place.

Also, read CaptKirby's post. I wonder if some of you even know what griefing is . . .

"Some people get pleasure out of cruelty, but doing it in a harmless way. I am sorry, but disrupting an online video game is harmless. If you take it in a way that you are actually mentally distressed, then that is your weakness."