Yet Another Empoleon Team

[cim]

I'm in a team building lull, but this is what I've come up with for a team. I've tweaked it a lot and it probably could use a few more, but I could use some advice on exactly what to change. Enh.

Hippowdon (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP/80 Atk/176 Def (was 124 Atk/132 Def)
Impish nature (was Adamant)
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
---

Kind of a cross between an anti-lead, pinch counter utility, and SR lead. Crunch pwns Azelf with Sand Stream, Earthquake wrecks Tyranitar, and I SR on anything else. Can serve as a pinch check to DDmence or Lucario with liberal Wish support.

Tentacruel (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP/120 Def/136 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Knock Off
- Surf
- Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
---

Since Rapid Spin is pretty useless now I'm using Knock Off though honestly both suck pretty badly :/. Life Orb attackers I usually want to take recoil, CBers I bring Tenta in are on resisted moves that I don't want them to switch from... I dunno. I guess it might be useful for the Mence switch in or something. Toxic Spikes is pretty useful as it fucks up a lot of Empoleon's counters like Vaporeon (I hate Vaporeon). I miss having Dugrio as insurance for these guys, but oh well, TSpikes and Sand will do.

Rotom-h @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/164 Def/92 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Will-o-wisp
- Overheat
- Discharge
---

Blocks anyone who still uses Rapid Spin. Overheat is occasionally useful on like 2nd-to-last Scizor or Lucario or something. Will-o-wisp is really awesome and a good number of things can be set up on by Emp with a Burn inflicted.

Flygon (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- U-turn
- Fire Punch
---

Choice Band Flygon covers a slight Heatran / Zapdos weak (though HP Ice Zapdos does do fairly well against this team :/) and is generally really fun to play. Outrage still kills everything not resistant to it, and with all the residual buildup even stuff like Cress has slight chances to be 2HKOed, though who uses Cress now anyway.

(was Jirachi)
Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Explosion

Generic Scarf Heatran, doing his job of gluing the team together and stopping Lucario and other Heatran from sweeping everything to pieces. Also, an okay HP Ice Zapdos switch-in, something my team needed. Also good Mence bait, the SR wears him down.

Empoleon (M) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 12 HP/232 Spd/252 SAtk/12 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Agility
- Substitute
- Surf
- Grass Knot
---
You've seen it a million times before. With Sand Stream I might be able to pull off Grass Knot as Salamence isn't going to take a Surf well with both SR AND Sand factored in, but for now it's there. Without some kind of Vaporeon bait though it's a little harder for him to sweep.

 

[kd24]

Er, I see a big problem with SD Lucario with CC / Crunch / Extremespeed. He has two pokemon to stat up against (either stat up on jirachi who cant do shit at all or stat up on cb hippo locked into anything not named eq). For this reason alone, I would possibly consider using a gyarados maybe over rotom-h. I hate how he is your only scizor counter (he will be ohkoed by sd life orb crunch from lucario though) but hippowdon and gyarados can handle scizor as well as that lucario i mentioned. with tentacruel spinning away, things should be good. losing your anti spinner sucks but than again, none of the spinners except for life orb starmie and donphan can really do anything to empoleon giving you perfect time to set up the empoleon sweep.

hopefully you dont face a lucario sweep at all but if you do, what i have suggested could really help.

there is also the option of using expert belt hippowdon but you might lose that ohko on azelf with crunch.

 

[cim]

Choice Band Hippowdon is designed to survive an SD Close Combat. Flygon can take one ExtremeSpeed and is faster. Losing my antispinner shuts down the fundamental strategy of the team!

Setting up Empoleon's sweep is not hard, so I don't need to use a Spinner as my opportunity to set up. I should instead be blocking Rapid Spin so that I can still sweep if they have a celebi or vaporeon.

Expert Belt Hippowdon would, you know, do the same thing with lucario, so I don't see how that makes him handling easier. I think I would just keep the ko with sand stream though.

 

[kd24]

What I was saying is that Lucario would switch into a Choice Band Crunch, Swords Dance as you switch, and start ohkoing. I didnt think that you hippo could survive a Adamant SD Life Orb Close Combat with Stealth Rock support. To avoid having this whole terrible mess not happen, you could just use expert belt to earthquake the lucario after crunching the azelf.

you definitely dont need to use gyarados over rotom-h, especially if rotom-h is very important to this team, but it does help a bit. I can see your problem with losing the anti spinner which lets vaporeon go through you but than again, you could just toxic vaporeon with jirachi (isnt that the point of jirachi? To make sure pokemon like gyarados or vaporeon are toxiced no matter what?).

Again, to show my point about how hippowdon definitely does not handle the lucario i talked about:

91.43% - 107.86%

so hippowdon really has no chance and with stealth rock ... yeah they slim even more.

i really dont understand what this flygon nonsense is about though:

92.21% - 108.72%

thats the extremespeed and with stealth rock, once again, almost no chance of survival.

 

[Evil Hamster]

As KD said, I would be worried about what SDLuke with Crunch is going to do to your team. Whilst admittedly you can keep Hippowdon Wished up, you're going to have to keep it at 100% for pretty much the entire game to avoid getting swept :( I would be very cautious around Specs, Flash Fire boosted Heatran too, as Tenta is the only thing that can really take two hits from it and even that can't OHKO in return. Zapdos can be pretty horrible too if it carries Hp Ice, SubRoost variants in particular as it blocks status from Jirachi and Rotom, Rotom can't break it's Substitutes without resorting to Overheat (which then means you can't break it on the next go) and with Roost and Pressure Jirachi can be stalled out of Ice Punches.

Taking status is also something I'm worried about. Something is going to be put permeanently out of commission if something starts spamming sleep moves. With the drop in Hypnosis' accuracy this isn't so much of a problem, but it can still open up massive holes in your team when you do end up facing it. I would advise making Rotom-H Scarved, as this puts you ahead of any Lucario and stops it sweeping you with a resistance to both priority moves. Also gives you a suitable revenge killer for Gyarados who can otherwise cause you some problems if it gets a DD on Hippowdon or something. I would also consider making Tentacruel a ReSTalker with Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic Spikes/Surf to take status for you, as Sludge Bomb isn't overly useful for anything except Celebi and you've admitted that Knock Off isn't helping much.

Originally, when writing this out, I was going to advise replacing Flygon with a Specially Defensive Tyranitar, which provides more Heatran and Zapdos support, provides a Dark resist and maintainins a nice offense, but then that would leave you with four Earthquake weaknesses and only one immunity, so I'm really not sure about what to do there :s

 

[panamaxis]

It seems to me the only use CB hippo has is for OHKOing azelf. The better way of dealing with Azelf is to ev hippo to deal over 50% with stone edge (or crunch if stone edge sacrifices too much defensive potential but stone edge is the better option for dragons) and then switch to rotom on the explosion.

So change hippo to the bulkier varient with: Crunch or Stone Edge/ EQ / SR / Slack Off with lefties.

Grass Knot > Ice beam on Empoleon (surf does like 75% to salamence after the boost). Grass knot will come in handy more often then ice beam although im not an expert on empoleon, talk to Seven Deadly Sins if you want expert advice on it.

I find Protect more useful than U-turn on Jirachi but thats your call. Spd = Speed? If so what does Jirachi outrun with those speed evs that will be hurt by ice punch, maybe salamence and dragonite pre-DD but I think those evs would be better distributed elsewhere (probably in sp. def as your team hates vaporeon and this would give it a better switch in). Also Ice punch doesn't seem like that great of a move on jirachi, thunderpunch or iron head seems better on this team.

Predict well against Heatran.

 

[cim]

Except then I have to predict perfectly and this way I don't have to.

Grass Knot > Ice beam on Empoleon (surf does like 75% to salamence after the boost). Grass knot will come in handy more often then ice beam although im not an expert on empoleon, talk to Seven Deadly Sins if you want expert advice on it.

Heh, SDS actually got the set from me :D. I'm actually leaning Grass Knot, because with SR and Sand Stream I actually have a small chance at beating Mence with Surf.

I'm thinking of going Blissey over Jirachi as "generic Special tanking Heatran counter". That or Gyarados, but I'm already buttraped by Zapdos more than I should be.

Hippowdon I need to re-EV to survive SDLuke even more than it does now so that it can come in on SR and live. 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def Impish OHKOs Azelf with Choice Band Crunch and OHKOs Salamence with CB Stone Edge, plus it guarantees the Luke survival and shit.

 

[AhrenElessedil]

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 240 HP/72 Def/196 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Wish
- Toxic
- U-turn
- Ice Punch
Originally going to be "Special Tank Wish Supporter" but I couldn't figure out moveset / EVs so I just had it outrun Mamoswine and pump Defense to take a Mence Outrage better than normal. U-turn is probably not as useful as Protect for me, but I dunno. Toxic is for Flying types or other pests, could be replaced but then what do I do for Togekiss?

I'd try Iron Head/Fire Punch over Toxic/UTurn for extra flinch hax and for burn hax/ScizOUr.

 

[Automatic]

Knock off is good for when the opponent switches into a trick-er so your tenta doesnt get stuck with a scarf. You might also wanna use Black Sludge, just don't let it get switched back onto your team later.

 

[Twinkytoes]

Except then I have to predict perfectly and this way I don't have to.



Heh, SDS actually got the set from me :D. I'm actually leaning Grass Knot, because with SR and Sand Stream I actually have a small chance at beating Mence with Surf.

I'm thinking of going Blissey over Jirachi as "generic Special tanking Heatran counter". That or Gyarados, but I'm already buttraped by Zapdos more than I should be.

Hippowdon I need to re-EV to survive SDLuke even more than it does now so that it can come in on SR and live. 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def Impish OHKOs Azelf with Choice Band Crunch and OHKOs Salamence with CB Stone Edge, plus it guarantees the Luke survival and shit.

My advice:

1. Place this in place of tenta, he won't do mych for the team. This also gets rid of your SD Luke problem and can counter Hera too if you ever find him annoying (although he doesn't look like a problem to me).

GLiscor@ Leftovers/Bright Powder
Jolly w/ Sand Veil/Hyper Cutter
EVs: 160 HP / 136 Def / 212 Spd
-Earthquake
-Aerial Ace/Toxic
-Stealth Rock/Knock Off
-Roost

THis is the standard moveset but is EVed to counter SD Luke, by outspeeding and OHKOing with EQ. It can support a bit too and has toxic for blissey, but if you fear Hera then carry Aerial Ace. SR or knock off for cripples (you already have SR so go for Knock Off, that way you don't lose one of tenta's abilities).

2. Hippo wants Lefties/Life Orb and Impish Nature. That will do over 50% on azelf with Crunch (heck, it might OHKO) and can damage T-Tar, Dragons and Gyara with Stone Edge, but watch out for Intimidate on some of them, and Blissey ruins this if she takes Ice beam.

3. To counter Scizor and do other jobs, the SpA EVs will be more useful in my opinion so pour those Spd EVs into SpA, but this is just an opinion it could work either way.

4. You should replace Flygon with a Zapdos Counter, Flygon is not doing kuch for this team and will never replace Chomp. But I don't know what can counter Zap so I am afraid you will have to find this for yourself.

5. Jirachi want's Iron head to deal more damage with STAB and to deal with T-Tar.

6. Empoleon want's Grass knot over ice beam, it will be more useful. After the Torrent boost, factoring in SR and sandstorm, it will 2HKO mence. It does 41.87% - 49.40% after the Torrent boost so he will be on aout 20% after that. Guaranteed.

 

[cim]

My advice:

1. Place this in place of tenta, he won't do mych for the team. This also gets rid of your SD Luke problem and can counter Hera too if you ever find him annoying (although he doesn't look like a problem to me).

GLiscor@ Leftovers/Bright Powder
Jolly w/ Sand Veil/Hyper Cutter
EVs: 160 HP / 136 Def / 212 Spd
-Earthquake
-Aerial Ace/Toxic
-Stealth Rock/Knock Off
-Roost

I feel bad "bashing" you when you're trying to help, but you might notice that the team revolves around Empoleon, as evidenced by the title. Thus, I need Toxic Spikes. Your suggestion would have worked better if it were Nidoqueen, I guess, but then Mixape will oneshot the whole team.

THis is the standard moveset but is EVed to counter SD Luke, by outspeeding and OHKOing with EQ. It can support a bit too and has toxic for blissey, but if you fear Hera then carry Aerial Ace. SR or knock off for cripples (you already have SR so go for Knock Off, that way you don't lose one of tenta's abilities).

I know what a Gliscor does, thank you.

2. Hippo wants Lefties/Life Orb and Impish Nature. That will do over 50% on azelf with Crunch (heck, it might OHKO) and can damage T-Tar, Dragons and Gyara with Stone Edge, but watch out for Intimidate on some of them, and Blissey ruins this if she takes Ice beam.

Heck, maybe you should run a damage calculation or two. How is Blissey more ruined by a Life Orb / Leftovers version than a Choice Band version? In fact, LEfties versions never 2HKO (not like my EV spread does a good job at that but whatever). It sounds like you're just going "oh there's a pokemon Ill tell Chris what it does, which I don't mean to be rude but doesn't really help.

3. To counter Scizor and do other jobs, the SpA EVs will be more useful in my opinion so pour those Spd EVs into SpA, but this is just an opinion it could work either way.

Speed EVs are to outrun other Rotom and Tyranitar and stuff. Scizor is always OHKOed by Overheat.

4. You should replace Flygon with a Zapdos Counter, Flygon is not doing kuch for this team and will never replace Chomp. But I don't know what can counter Zap so I am afraid you will have to find this for yourself.

Flygon is one of the best non-HP Ice Zapdos switches in the game.

5. Jirachi want's Iron head to deal more damage with STAB and to deal with T-Tar.

I have a Hippowdon. Why do I need a Tyranitar counter?

6. Empoleon want's Grass knot over ice beam, it will be more useful. After the Torrent boost, factoring in SR and sandstorm, it will 2HKO mence. It does 41.87% - 49.40% after the Torrent boost so he will be on aout 20% after that. Guaranteed.

Uh... first of all you forgot Petaya Berry, I think. Second, if you've ever used Empoleon (I can tell right now you haven't) it's clear you have to OHKO everything with it as unless mence comes in on the final Sub you only get one hit. Sorry.

Again I'm sorry to bash when you're trying to help my admittedly meh team but yeah.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

1. Place this in place of tenta, he won't do mych for the team. This also gets rid of your SD Luke problem and can counter Hera too if you ever find him annoying (although he doesn't look like a problem to me).

GLiscor@ Leftovers/Bright Powder
Jolly w/ Sand Veil/Hyper Cutter
EVs: 160 HP / 136 Def / 212 Spd
-Earthquake
-Aerial Ace/Toxic
-Stealth Rock/Knock Off
-Roost

THis is the standard moveset but is EVed to counter SD Luke, by outspeeding and OHKOing with EQ. It can support a bit too and has toxic for blissey, but if you fear Hera then carry Aerial Ace. SR or knock off for cripples (you already have SR so go for Knock Off, that way you don't lose one of tenta's abilities).

Incorrect. Pokemon like Blissey, Celebi, and ESPECIALLY Vaporeon are pretty impossible for Empoleon to deal with on its own without a Torrent Hydro Pump and Ice Beam, neither of which is getting used here. TSpikes, on the other hand, lets Empoleon set up in their faces and then kill them with Surf. As an extensive user of Empoleon, this is what's worked for me. I used to have something else in Tent's place, and when I added Tentacruel, I found myself winning more often and more easily.

6. Empoleon want's Grass knot over ice beam, it will be more useful. After the Torrent boost, factoring in SR and sandstorm, it will 2HKO mence. It does 41.87% - 49.40% after the Torrent boost so he will be on aout 20% after that. Guaranteed.

wtg fail damage calculations

If I might make a suggestion, put a Scarftran in the place of Jirachi. First, it tends to lure out Salamence and get some free damage up on it, and it also takes care of SD Lucario, another Pokemon that causes problems for you. It also can provide a good check to Heatran, though Tentacruel kinda rapes Heatran eight ways from sunday, taking less than 20% from Fire Blast and only around 30% from SE Earth Power.

 

[Imran]

Starting with Tentacruel, I don't see why you could drop Sludge Bomb and Knock off and opt for Ice Beam and HP Electric instead. I say this because you said you didnt find Knock off very effective and you will then have a nice STAB, BoltBeam and you will no longer be Gyarados and Salamence set up fodder.

As for Swords Dance Lucario you can slap a Choice Scarf on your Rotom I guess, it will provide good insurance and still functions pretty well as an anti-spinner. you could run a very similar set, you could even keep Will-o-Wisp if you _really_ wanted. Although Trick may be better for you. Pursuit from Tar can even be used as Empoleon set up material. A pretty simple fix, but it should be effective.

A lot of people have already dealt with the rest of the Major problems, Offesnive Zapdos generally use HP Grass today to deal with Swampert so Flygon will deal well with them, as for HP IUce ZApdos they tend to be a little more defensive i.e. without Life Orb, and they will only 2HKO Hippo with Stealth Rock down 7% of the time. If you can get it in on a thunderbolt (not too hard I suppose with tenta and empoleon taking pittance from HP Ice or Grass on the pivot) then it will count as a "check" at least, EQ for those clevel roosting ones of course ;)

The rest looks cool after dealing with Zapdos and Lucario, any more problems? Feel free to ask lol Hope some of this helped =D

EDIT: Yeah lol no it's not supposed to be a counter just insurance that it doesnt set up on you. Scarf Rotom will help you out as well so any elemental punch could work there I guess, how useful has Ice Punch been?

 

[cim]

Yeah I was wondering why everyone was going "heatran problems" with both flygon and tentacruel in there. It's a paper weak more than anything, since Flygon outspeeds Specs versions.

Yeah, Scarf Heatran over Jirachi makes a TON of sense and I feel kind of stupid for not thinking about it now that I don't have a ton of ground weaks like in early testing.

I'm also going to test those "new" CB Hippo EVs to see it they're still powerful enough "in general" to dish out some good damage.

Goldfan: Good idea, I'll consider it. If only Gyara didn't have Earthquake 100% of the time it could be a real "counter".

 

[RaikouLover]

Wat happened to Bait-Tran Chris?

 

[cim]

I needed Scarf Heatran to check Lucario and Salamence. Vap still loses to Toxic Spikes + boosted GK if it comes in or I come in on it.