np: Latias - Don't Do the Dew! (NOTE: explanation of Skymin's fate within)

[Syberia]

This is why everyone should at some point use their old standard team on the suspect ladder. If the only reason Lati isnt broken is because we are using 2/3 counters then we have no idea if it is actually broken or not, but by using our regular teams we can more accuratly judge how significant of a change it will make in the metagame.

That's the thing, though. The standard metagame, at least at the moment, is absolutely full of Lati counters. Tyranitar, Scizor, Bronzong, even Metagross. My regular team includes two of those, so I obviously haven't had a problem yet.

 

[ViVi]

Yeah, I was refering to a earlier post where someone said that some nub in the chat was claiming to have made a team specifically to counter Latias.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I don't mean to crap all over the process, but a lot of posts are revealing the big problem with the way the Suspect Test system is set up. The Suspect Test ladder stats are going to be ridiculously weighted towards the counters to Latias for two reasons. The first is, of course, that they're good. There's no saying that Scizor, Metagross, and Tyranitar are bad Pokemon- they simply aren't. However, the second one is the real problem: People usually only play on the Suspect ladder if they want to use Latias, which means that teams on the Suspect ladder are going to be packing a Latias counter 100% of the time because their overall payoff is massive- Packing a couple Latias counters is very profitable when the chance your opponent will be using Latias is so high. The end result is that the Suspect Test ladder is ridiculously centralized around Latias, and the test means nothing.

As unorthodox as it sounds, I think this test would be done a lot better the other way around, like every other test. Add Latias into the standard ladder and run the Suspect ladder without Latias. The end result is that you get a larger usage draw for the ladder with Latias, and then you get a fair chance that teams will be far less centralized around Latias. You'll also get standard vanilla metagame stats to compare it to.

 

[Slapjax]

Well, i was just thinking of some uses for latias's speed, and i figured it would make a great revenge killer for dragon dancers. With a timid nature, it outspeeds every dragon dancer after a dd. Honestly, i'm sure latias could be put to far better use, and this set is probably a waste of a team slot.

Latias @choice scarf
timid/modest (i'm not sure how fast it has to be)
4 hp 252 speed 252 sp.atk

thunderbolt
dragon pulse (you could use ice beam here i guess)
hp fighting
shadow ball/ draco meteor

 

[lilyhollow]

People usually only play on the Suspect ladder if they want to use Latias

I'm not entirely sure about this, but that doesn't matter because the voting requirements encourage players to use Latias as much as possible anyway, so either way I think I agree with what you're saying overall.

 

[cim]

If the test encourages the use of Latias, as it should, there will be an artificially inflated presence of Latias, thus leading to an artificially inflated number of Latias counters, and thus useless stats. This will happen with every Uber - OU test.

A better solution, IMO, would be to unban everything, play for a month, then test the metagame minus one suspect on a different ladder every month. This should curb the inherent centralization problem.

SDS's Solution works too, though then good battlers could get away with very few or no Standard test battles and only play the metagame they know.

 

[Raikou]

Then maybe we should account for that and take the artificially inflated usage statistics with a grain of salt, instead focusing primarily on each player's opinion of whether Latias is uber or not.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Let everything balance out first, it'll take a little time as its been only the first day, really. I've been using Machamp to some success as it Falcon Punches Latias' counters to death pretty well.

Take advantage of the fact that everyone wants to use her counters quickly on her.

Remember you need to have synergistic teams when using her.

The problem with SDS' solution is the fact that you'll get a number of battlers who really don't know what they are talking about (see Skymin's voting).

 

[cim]

The problem with SDS' solution is the fact that you'll get a number of battlers who really don't know what they are talking about (see Skymin's voting).

How does making people play a second ladder fix what happened with Skymin? (what we are doing now) Hell, how does putting Latias on one Ladder and then using "Suspect" for a Suspect Free metagame cause that? (SDS's proposal)

 

[Hipmonlee]

Remember that if Latias is found to be OU, it will be moved to OU but the decision will be revisited in stage 3 testing. So we will have had a good view of what Latias does when legal in the standard ladder by that stage..

Have a nice day.

 

[too_talls]

How does making people play a second ladder fix what happened with Skymin? (what we are doing now) Hell, how does putting Latias on one Ladder and then using "Suspect" for a Suspect Free metagame cause that? (SDS's proposal)

Simple, there would be a number of people to make the voting requirement without seeing much or playing with any latias'

So then when they are chosen to vote, they will get random ideas abotu why they think it's OU or UBER.

 

[Trust]

I have to say that I'm using a BL team in the suspect ladder, which I built before than Latias was allowed, and I must say that it doesn't give me problems at all, although I see a lot of Magnezone's in the ladder. I supose that it helps with Scizor, which counters Latias.

 

[Jumpman16]

I don't mean to crap all over the process, but a lot of posts are revealing the big problem with the way the Suspect Test system is set up. The Suspect Test ladder stats are going to be ridiculously weighted towards the counters to Latias for two reasons. The first is, of course, that they're good. There's no saying that Scizor, Metagross, and Tyranitar are bad Pokemon- they simply aren't. However, the second one is the real problem: People usually only play on the Suspect ladder if they want to use Latias, which means that teams on the Suspect ladder are going to be packing a Latias counter 100% of the time because their overall payoff is massive- Packing a couple Latias counters is very profitable when the chance your opponent will be using Latias is so high. The end result is that the Suspect Test ladder is ridiculously centralized around Latias, and the test means nothing.

or the problem is with people attributing much of any meaning to literally less than 24 hours of play. there is a reason that our suspect tests are not just one day long, and that is the same reason one would have been silly to draw any conclusive evidence from Maniaclyrasist's Eon Tournament. it should be obvious to most people that, just as in a specialized tournament highlighting some specific pokemon or move, players will at first do pretty much everything they can to combat the highlighted feature in order to win, making an emphasis on utilizing the feature to win a bad idea. and, if this is not obvious, it should not be your knee-jerk response to question the process after literally less than a day of use.

As unorthodox as it sounds, I think this test would be done a lot better the other way around, like every other test. Add Latias into the standard ladder and run the Suspect ladder without Latias. The end result is that you get a larger usage draw for the ladder with Latias, and then you get a fair chance that teams will be far less centralized around Latias. You'll also get standard vanilla metagame stats to compare it to.

what are you talking about? the only suspect test that we haven't run on a suspect ladder has been skymin, and the error with that should have been what held you up with proposing this. we would have to reset everyone's records over and over if we did it the way you're suggesting, which doesn't really do much in terms of "draw"...unless you're suggesting that we would be able to use everyone's existing records on the standard ladder they'd played with latias on for one month, which of course takes us exactly to what the problem with the voter pool of Skymin voters was.

there should be enough "draw" to use latias on a separate ladder that won't affect your main stats, not to mention using a powerful and extremely interesting pokemon that hasn't been tested in standard play for almost four years. again, "don't blame us" if the community again proves that it is too lazy to make an impression on the landscape of competitive pokemon by playing a game. we could literally hardly be making it easier for you guys to actually impact the tiering process, considering that otherwise we'd have to wipe your records every month and force you to play in a metagame with a suspect, which would generate considerable discontent.

If the test encourages the use of Latias, as it should, there will be an artificially inflated presence of Latias, thus leading to an artificially inflated number of Latias counters, and thus useless stats. This will happen with every Uber - OU test.

yes...for a day or two, until the people get tired of losing with their unsupported CM Latias. it is simple, you guys—if you try to pull off a CM latias without using support pokemon like Dugtrio and Magnezone and just calm minding whenever you feel like it as if this is Advance, you are not likely to win. this matters because you actually need to win to have a say in the actual Stage 2 tag at the end. so, if you are not incredibly shortsighted and/or too stubborn to realize that Latias is not some magic "Win" button, you will either support your team with pokemon like Duggy and Zone in order to win, or you will forego using Latias for a couple days or at all if you're actually winning, and you can be the judge of whetier you think your efforts indicated that you had to really go our of your way to make sure you won meaning "latias is uber", or you didn't really have to stray that far from a team you'd normally use meaning "latias is ou".

either way, you will have won and won consistently, which is pretty much the only objective barometer in the test thus far. (i have an idea for another objective barometer and have shared it with the other main suspect test facilitators, but that's for another post.) we don't care if you won for a few days with some mega-latias counter team—it literally and figuratively doesn't work like that. no one worth their salt will not adapt to such a counter team and respond with something featuring, for example and straight off the top of my head, SD Lucario. if someone stupidly packs their team with Tyranitar and Scizor to stop Latias, and Magnezone and Dugtrio to stop Latias's counters in Tyranitar and Scizor, and, say, rounds this team out by using CM/DP/Surf/Recover 4HP/252SpA/252Spe Latias with LO and Blissey to stop special threats, forgetting that he or she actually has to play pokemon in order to win consistently and not just play some counter-team stuff, guess what? this "team" is straight up 6-0ed by Lucario if it gets just one SD. knowing that you actually need to win to have a say in the Stage 2 tag of the suspect anyway, you cannot and will not get away with playing "counter-team pokemon" for very long, and is the entire reason tournaments don't give us conclusive evidence and is why the Suspect Test Processes are a month long. it will work similarly for every suspect we ever test. the example is theorymon of course but i'm sure you can see the point without feeling compelled to respond with "no one would make a team like that".

A better solution, IMO, would be to unban everything, play for a month, then test the metagame minus one suspect on a different ladder every month. This should curb the inherent centralization problem.

SDS's Solution works too, though then good battlers could get away with very few or no Standard test battles and only play the metagame they know.

there is no inherent centralization problem when you realize tests arent a day long or three days long but a month long for a reason.

 

[kd24]

yeah your BL team is great, it actually stalls my team haha

anyway, I am surprised about how uncommon Heatran is now. Blissey + Latias means we wont get to see Heatran at all anymore but I would look at it the other way. Heatran gets rid of Scizor / Mamoswine, both of whom stop Latias. Just add in a Dugtrio to get rid of Tar and Magnezone and other Heatran and a Scizor for other Latias + Blissey and you win.

Im thinking when someone makes a team of ScarfTrio / ScarfTran / CM Latias / CB Scizor / Careful Expert Belt Tar / MixMence, we will see how dominant Latias can be (only my prediction though).

 

[Peachfuzz]

Calm Minding with Latias is way too hard. 4 moveslot syndrome hurts. Support sets are what Latias does best.

So far I haven't had any trouble dealing with it. I have a Tyranitar and a Shuckle to keep it from doing much. I use one myself, and it's an awesome late game sweeper, but early game (where it will probably faint right away) it is not doing anything at all.

Heatran? Zapdos? And Scizor is even more of a motherfucker. Scarf Jirachi is everyone's lead now too!

About the Suspect Test getting skewed statistics because everyone is using Latias and its counters only: just wait for the test to settle a bit. Everyone will be changing their teams after their initial impressions of Latias' performance.

 

[Trust]

KD24, your team stalls me all day long, but it's not because of Latias, it's because of good sinergy.

I don't really see how Latias could shine. If you want to be an special tank, Blissey does it better. Calm Mind? Suicune. Wish support? Vaporeon or Blissey again. Special Sweeper? Azelf or Gengar work better. Dual Screen lead? Maybe, but its speed is not the best one, and some Taunters like Azelf or Aerodactyl can stop it.

I think that Latias is more OU than Garchomp or Skymin, although I could change my mind some days later.

 

[Bologo]

I've been playing the Suspect ladder casually this time. Casually meaning that I'm probably not going to try all that hard to get a vote, because I personally don't care as much for this test as the other ones.

However, there's one Latias set that I've been growing rather fond of:

Latias @Draco Plate
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP (I don't actually remember where the last 4 EVs go)
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)

- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Roost/Recover
- Dragon Pulse

Yeah, so that's the set. Basically, it's like a regular Calm Mind set, but this one does not have the problem with status. Draco Plate really helps this set a lot, because it makes Dragon Pulse reach 162 BP after STAB, meaning that although it is the only attack on the set, it will still always hit for a minimum of 81 BP, as no pokemon 4x resist Dragon. It's quite difficult to get past this set without a Tyranitar, Scizor or Mamoswine, and if Latias is behind a Sub, it can still get past these three.

This set also allows Latias to beat Blissey one on one if it doesn't have Seismic Toss, since Latias can sub up before a status, and Flamethrower/Ice Beam have very little hope of breaking a sub after 1 CM. Roost is very helpful to compensate for the lack of Leftovers.

The big advantages over CM Suicune is that Latias is obviously a lot faster, and that Dragon Pulse is a much better STAB than Surf, since this means that Latias is not getting walled by shit like Vaporeon, and having to rely on a weaker Ice Beam to hurt Vaporeon (since it doesn't have STAB).

I feel that this set is Latias' best shot at a CM sweep. I'm still in the process of testing it, but this is what I have so far. If anyone else wants to help test so that we can find a better EV spread, then you're welcome to try.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

or the problem is with people attributing much of any meaning to literally less than 24 hours of play. there is a reason that our suspect tests are not just one day long, and that is the same reason one would have been silly to draw any conclusive evidence from Maniaclyrasist's Eon Tournament. it should be obvious to most people that, just as in a specialized tournament highlighting some specific pokemon or move, players will at first do pretty much everything they can to combat the highlighted feature in order to win, making an emphasis on utilizing the feature to win a bad idea. and, if this is not obvious, it should not be your knee-jerk response to question the process after literally less than a day of use.

what are you talking about? the only suspect test that we haven't run on a suspect ladder has been skymin, and the error with that should have been what held you up with proposing this. we would have to reset everyone's records over and over if we did it the way you're suggesting, which doesn't really do much in terms of "draw"...unless you're suggesting that we would be able to use everyone's existing records on the standard ladder they'd played with latias on for one month, which of course takes us exactly to what the problem with the voter pool of Skymin voters was.

there should be enough "draw" to use latias on a separate ladder that won't affect your main stats, not to mention using a powerful and extremely interesting pokemon that hasn't been tested in standard play for almost four years. again, "don't blame us" if the community again proves that it is too lazy to make an impression on the landscape of competitive pokemon by playing a game. we could literally hardly be making it easier for you guys to actually impact the tiering process, considering that otherwise we'd have to wipe your records every month and force you to play in a metagame with a suspect, which would generate considerable discontent.

As wonderful as that diatribe is, it still completely ignores my point. The only reason to use the Suspect Test ladder at this point is to use Latias, which means that 90% of teams have Latias on it, which means that 100% of teams have two or three Latias counters, and voila, overcentralized stats that mean nothing. Why play Suspect Test if you're not going to use Latias? If you're not using Latias, why not play on the main Standard ladder where your wins count? There IS draw to use Latias on a separate ladder. Too much draw. So much draw that the stats are going to mean absolute jack once the test is over. Not only that, but it creates obvious arguments, as the OU people are going to say, "Duh, Latias is OU because it dies so fast" and the Uber people are going to say, "Duh, Latias is Uber because you're forced to pack too many counters to it" when neither is actually the case.

Sure you're creating a ton of draw to use Latias, but as it stands, that draw means nothing when the experience and the stats are both going to be useless in a horribly overcentralized metagame that has nothing to do with Latias' actual power or usefulness. If you simply added Latias to the Standard ladder and had the Suspect Test ladder just be the simple pre-Latias metagame, then first, anyone that wanted to vote would have to play in both a metagame with Latias and a metagame without Latias in the same time period, and second, Latias would be present in a metagame that isn't actually tailor-made for people to counter it. There's no need to reset people's stats on the main ladder because people will be forced to play in the Latias metagame if they want their wins to count, which will annoy some people, but not at the expense of making an absolutely useless round of Suspect Test.

Furthermore, there's a specific reason I'm talking about this so early on in the testing phase. It's because something needs to be done about this before we waste a second month on a vote that has no actual basis in logic and the Suspect Test completely falls apart. I'd rather have a contingency plan beforehand than just stand around watching the Suspect Test burn and go, "Well, we fucked up."

 

[User 12783]

But then it is an inferior Latios, Bologo.

 

[lilyhollow]

Why play Suspect Test if you're not going to use Latias?

so you can vote. I mean I'm sure the data will be altered in some way for the reasons you stated, but as for it having a huge noticeable in the long run, I'm not so sure.

But then it is an inferior Latios, Bologo.

Well at this point that's kind of like calling Salamence an inferior Rayquaza when it goes Dragon Dance or something. Latios isn't allowed yet so even if Latias' best set ends up being "an inferior Latios," that won't matter until Stage 3.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

so you can vote. I mean I'm sure the data will be altered in some way for the reasons you stated, but as for it having a huge noticeable in the long run, I'm not so sure.

But if the point is that voters have to have experience playing in a Latias-enabled metagame, then even if they want to vote, the metagame will still be useless for experience. And if you actually play the Suspect Test without Latias, then you're of course ignoring the reasoning that Jump put that it's a draw to use the Pokemon so that you have experience in the matter, which is actually where the flaw is. He's created a place where the draw to use the Pokemon is so high that Latias is actually useless and the draw to use her is going to end up being in the gutters due to the fact that the metagame is so horribly inflated in the direction of her counters.

 

[Colonel M]

Pursuit-bait. >_>

Anyway, I really haven't had too many problems with Latias. Actually, I find it similair to Cresselia (unfortunately). The Fighting resist helps, but I was still shocked when Infernape's Hidden Power Ice was 2HKOing 0/0 Latias. So obviously with HP support, it's solvable. To me, Latias seems to be "very close" as a potent OU Pokemon. And by potent, I mean something that might be staying in OU for quite a while.

On the other hand, I have no clue what Latios will bring to the table. In short: if you use Latias for support, then you're using the right Latias. Bulky Sweeping is acceptable, but removal of threats such as Jirachi (yeah, believe it or not the physical versions hurt), Scizor, Tyranitar, and Metagross is highly recommended.

 

[stvn]

Physical (Scarf) Jirachi is awesome, it has yet to fail me killing opposing Latias.

 

[DR809]

I started using a modest life orb set for Latias and it hasn't been working well its set is

78HP, 180 Spd., 252 Sp. Atk
Dragon Pulse, Grass Knot, HP Fighting, Roost

It can deals with T-tars but scizor is a problem. You can go for HP Fire but I'm not sure Grass Knot will be able to OHKO T-tar but I can do damage calcs for it. What we need is a set that can function well in OU because the current sets are more viable towards uber standards. Where as those may not work in OU.

 

[the_artic_one]

But if the point is that voters have to have experience playing in a Latias-enabled metagame, then even if they want to vote, the metagame will still be useless for experience. And if you actually play the Suspect Test without Latias, then you're of course ignoring the reasoning that Jump put that it's a draw to use the Pokemon so that you have experience in the matter, which is actually where the flaw is. He's created a place where the draw to use the Pokemon is so high that Latias is actually useless and the draw to use her is going to end up being in the gutters due to the fact that the metagame is so horribly inflated in the direction of her counters.

Using Latios is not supposed to be the main draw of playing the suspect ladder, the main draw is supposed to be the ability to vote. People want to win to increase their rating so they can qualify, if the best way to win is not using 4 lati-counters then people will start doing that by the end of the month. If not they will realize that their team-building is being too restricted by lati's presence in the metagame and will vote uber.