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np: Latias - Don't Do the Dew! (NOTE: explanation of Skymin's fate within)

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Jumpman16, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Alrighty, we're at an important part of our Suspect Test Process right now, but that fact that we are making undeniable progress and about to test a very exciting Suspect is as refreshing as an ice-cold Mountain Dew. This is where the similarities between Lati@s and that awesome beverage end, though, as it is widely believed that when actually equipped with Soul Dew, these two pokemon are unquestionably uber. If either or both are given a Stage 2 OU tag (check the Order of Operations thread for what the stages mean), then it stands to (slim) reason that they may not be uber even with Soul Dew. Testing them initially with Soul Dew would not be as practical because it's more likely they would be uber with Soul Dew, which would necessitate another test without Soul Dew, than it is that that they will not be uber without Soul Dew (which would necessitate another test with Soul Dew).

    Regarding Shaymin-S, we have decided to temporarily honor the plurality of its "uber" votes for one month, at which point we will retest it, right after Lati@s's Suspect Test. The reason we will retest Skymin is not because the vote was close. We must retest Skymin because it was believed by everyone with an active hand in the Suspect Test Process that the Suspect Test Ladder was unneeded for Skymin's month of testing, since with Deoxys-S's removal from the Standard Ladder following its Suspect Test Skymin was finally the lone Suspect on the Standard Ladder after many months of Wobbuffet, Deoxys-S and Garchomp. It was realized that not also resetting the records of the battlers on the Standard Ladder would skew the pool of eligible voters towards those who already had marks close to 1650 rating/65 deviation.

    As such, the pool of voters was both unexpectedly large and biased—however the staff has come to the conclusion that there is no way to fairly evaluate the voters after the fact and invalidate the votes of those who did not "participate" in the Suspect Test as much as they would otherwise have had to if their marks started at the default 1500/350. After all, we did not make clear that those marks would have to be attained after the Suspect Test commenced. Therefore, we must retest at a later date. We appreciate your patience in this groundbreaking process that just a few of us have created from scratch with our own intuition, and we are confident that we are making the right decision, as this is the most fair to the community.

    I will also remind all of you that a 51% plurality at once indicates that a whopping 49% of those who voted would have been disappointed with its Stage 2 tag (that 49% correlates loosely to the competitive battling community at large). Since there is absolutely no guarantee that the vote won't be just as close next time, for Skymin or any other Suspect, we should all realize what percentage of people stand to be disappointed with a Suspect's tiering, either temporary or "for good" once we conclude Stage 3. This should not come as a surprise to anyone, though, as the entire reason we are conducting the Suspect Test process is because there is no such consensus on the current Suspects, pokemon that were determined Suspects in the first place because they merely "may be better suited in another tier." I hope that heads off any dissension and underlines the aim of the Suspect Test Process anew.

    So Lati@s is up now. It has been determined that it'd be more fair to enforce a makeshift "Species Clause" with these two pokemon, rather than testing one for one month and its sibling the next, and rather than allowing both to be used at the same time which would go against the aim of testing one Suspect in isolation at a time. We feel that they are similar enough that enforcing Species Clause will still give us the information we need to vote on both of them. I would like to encourage people to "use Latias please", as I predict a slight favoring her stronger brother for its power (even though Latias could singlehandedly drop Infernape's Suspect Test Usage to BL proportions, lol), but obviously you play to win and we don't want to force anyone to use anything.

    I will open this thread when Doug resurrects the Suspect Ladder, after he codes the unique Species Clause explained above.
  2. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Fun Fact: Soul Dew turns 252 EVs in Latios's beneficial SpA into effectively 968 EVs, and would more practically, given the predicted problem Lati@s will have sweeping (priority attacks, Tyranitar) allow this set:


    Latios @ Soul Dew
    EVs: 4HP/252Def/252Spe
    Nature: Timid
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Dragon Pulse
    ~ Grass Knot
    ~ Reflect/HP Fire/Safeguard

    Grass Knot's recommended to take down Tyranitar and Mamoswine, two of Latios's predicted biggest threats. DP for STAB, and the last move depends on how much you hate Scizor and Blissey (though I don't really like Safeguard without Recover). After just one Calm Mind, this Latios will have 259 Def, 666 SpA, 576 SpD and 350 Speed to go with 302 HP. So, for some numbers:


    Timid, 296 Special Attack Latios's Soul Dew Grass Knot on a 342HP/236SpD (4EVs/min) Adamant Mamoswine: 129-153%

    Timid, 296 Special Attack Latios's Soul Dew, +1 Grass Knot on a 342HP/236SpD (4EVs/min) Adamant Tyranitar in a Sandstorm: 95-112%

    Adamant, 394 Attack Mamoswine's Choice Band Ice Shard on a 302HP/259Def (4EVs/max) Modest Latios: 65-77%
    Adamant, 394 Attack Mamoswine's Choice Band Ice Shard on a 302HP/259Def (4EVs/max) Modest Latios under Reflect: 34-40%

    Adamant, 403 Attack Tyranitar's Choice Band Pursuit on a 302HP/259Def (4EVs/max) Modest, non-switching Latios: 67-79%
    Adamant, 403 Attack Tyranitar's Choice Band Crunch on a 302HP/259Def (4EVs/max) Modest Latios under Reflect: 67-79%

    Adamant, 394 Attack Scizor's Life Orb, Technician Bullet Punch on a on a 302HP/259Def (4EVs/max) Modest Latios: 42-50%


    So...you can either Reflect or CM on the switch to Tyranitar, CM meaning it's dead if it's not Scarfed. You can Reflect on the switch to Mamoswine and take 40% max from IS and OHKO every time with GK. I am such a whore for theorymon.
  3. Aeolus

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    Read this very carefully!

    Voting Requirements:

    All voters must have a forum registration date 3 months prior to the end date of the test.

    Upper: Rating - 1760 Deviation - 55
    Lower: Rating - 1655 Deviation - 65

    We are going to adopt a tiered structure this time in an effort to improve the quality of the voter pool. All users who achieve a rating of at least 1760 and have a deviation of 55 or less will automatically be granted voting rights. Any user who fails to meet the upper threshold, but does satisfy the lower limits will be required to submit a paragraph to both Aeolus and Jumpman16 addressing the following issues:

    1) Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?

    2) Describe the criteria you will be using to cast your vote. For you, what aspects of a pokemon should be judged when determining its tiering between OU and Uber.

    These writing submissions will be evaluated by both Jumpman16 and myself for clarity of thought and conscientiousness of participation. I anticipate that the majority of them will be approved, but that all depends on the quality of the submissions.

    As always, a straight special permission application will be made available... but those are judged very harshly. Don't bank on those.
  4. Aeolus

    Aeolus Bag
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    Jumpman may make a more detailed post about this later (if he feels like it)... but for various reasons, we are changing the structure of the test. It will be Latias only.
  5. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Yeah, evidently updating your iPod makes your Firefox run really slow so that's why I didn't post this a few hours sooner.

    Basically, I could go either way with the test personally. The main reason to test Latios and Latias at the same time is because anyone who thinks that we do not have time as an issue down the road is not thinking about the practicality of Suspect Test process in the long term with regard to the actual standard metagame.

    With Skymin and now Lati@s, we could potentially be finished with the entire Suspect Test process about 2½ months sooner (given the time it takes to initiate each individual Suspect Test) without actually skipping any of the Suspects. The facts are that Skymin's vote was so close that there's literally no guarantee the uber votes won't be a mere 51% again (meaning to give it a Stage 2 uber tag now and to move on would have been justified), and also that Latios and Latias are similar enough that nobody could fault "us" for testing them with the Species Clause suggested. And that, most importantly, Stage 3 was invented to address any concerns with a Suspects tiering after their fair Stage 2 tiering/tagging.

    But I am not going to pretend that they aren't different enough that testing them conventionally would be better than testing then with a makeshift species clause. That is how I originally imagined they would be tested, regardless of how it textually lumped them together as "Lati@s" in the Order of Operations. In the same breath, though, I will remind us all that we are conducting these tests for the benefit of the community and competitive pokemon. Included in these aims is making these Suspect Tests affect the standard metagame as slightly as possible. I still personally think given the fact that we have Stage 3 for a reason, giving Skymin a Stage 2 uber tag would not be the end of the world, and as it stands, testing Skymin again is bound to also test the patience of the community. And I stand by my assertion that the staff would have had good practice deciding on Latios and Latias in one period considering their unquestionable similarity and given that "someone" is going to have to consider through multiple (some dozen) Suspects at the same time eventually anyway. So if this time next year rolls around and talk of Generation 5 starts to crop up and, given that this is still an unusual and unique process for all of us and there are bound to be other issues to arise, we still have five, six, seven Suspects to test, well, "don't blame me", lol
  6. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    I have implemented the new Suspect ladder. I reset everyone's Suspect ladder rating back to the Shoddy default (Rating: 1500, Deviation: 350, Volatility: 0.06), which is the same as you would get if you created a new alt. I also implemented a new clause called "Soul Dew Clause". This prevents any pokemon from holding Soul Dew on the Suspect ladder, not just Latias. I did this to prevent any wiseguys from trying to get creative with Trick, to get a Soul Dew onto their Latias (Although, I could argue that if someone is clever enough to pull it off, they probably deserve the boost!)

    Anyway, the new ladder is open for business. I'll leave this thread closed, just in case Jump wants to set some discussion ground rules before opening it up to everyone.

    Have fun testing Latias!
  7. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    No, not much, thanks Doug. I will state that, as with any Suspect Test Discussion thread, this is to be almost completely devoid of theorymon. This thread is to discuss actual Latias sets and experiences on the Suspect Ladder. So naturally, this thread shouldn't have too many posts at first with regard to how Latias actually is playing.

    Have at it, guys.
  8. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
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    Cool, thread is open. Well, I'd like to discuss everyone's opinion on hp fire vs hp fighting. So far, ttar and scizor are her best counters. One is beaten by hp fighting and the other is beaten by hp fire. Obviously you can't have both. I honestly think it's a coin flip. Both are seen very very often and you'll be killed by one either way. I've been using hp fighting so that I wouldn't be walled by heatran too, but there are several times I wish I had hp fire. Of course, if I were to run hp fire, I'm sure there would be plenty of times I wish I had hp fighting.
  9. gec

    gec i've been crawling through the falling
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    @ Scofield - I find Surf is better than either Hidden Power, as it can 2HKO Tyranitar as well as Scizor if I am not mistaken.

    I'm disappointed that Latias' Mono Sub CM Set loses to Seismic Toss Blissey :(. 101 Subs would have been great, but oh well.
  10. MetaNite

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    Hmm... I only tested this once, but this acts like a bulky Gengar:

    Latias with Life Orb
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Hidden Power Fire / Thunderbolt
    - Grass Knot
    - Recover

    Loses to some steels, and Blissey but has decent coverage and power. And if you're really dedicated to beating Blissey:

    - Safeguard
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic / Dragon Pulse
    - Recover / Roost
  11. Imran

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    OK so after about ten or so battles I have reached 13 on the ladder (yes under alt...), not many people playing it at the moment, but I am quite enjoying it really. It's a good fun ladder and from what I've seen so far Latias hasn't been too much of a threat. This could be partly because I am currently running CB Metagross and an Expert Belt MIxed Tyranitar, but both of those handle it quite well, a +1 Surf hurts them both but it is quite managable.

    These two pokemon I am using are by no means only useful for Latias either, CB Metagross has a lot of niceches and hits a lot of things hard, and Expert Belt tyranitar is a good rouse and lures in Steel types that my Latias can take advantage of. Even with this support Latias has not been over threatening, I like the fact that is faster than Salamence, it provides a good "check" against it, but obviously a DDMence with one DD deals with it quite easily. I'm also running Ice Punch on pert to stop it from CMing on me.

    So in conclusion I find that currently it is a fun pokemon to play with, opposing ones are managable and dont have counters that are too specific, and even the one I am currently using is doing OK, but its not sweeping teams or anything. Also finding Surf > HP Fire or HP Fighting, but I guess it depends what you want to hit specifically.
  12. stvn

    stvn

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    I've been using Dragon Pulse/Recover/Wish/Roar with high speed on a stall team, and I should say it's pretty good.

    Roaring first to see if they have Tyranitar/Scizor is a good way to scout and make them take some passive damage. So far (like 10 battles) she didn't get killed by any Pursuiter (and god, I saw too many TTars) and can Roar pretty much anything. She doesn't sweep anything though (nor it should). Just a good support poke.

    Reflect > Wish would be awesome, but Wish is too good to pass up and I already have Reflect somewhere else in my team. It's just as amazing though.

    About CM Latias, I would personally use Hp Fire and be really careful with Tyranitar. Dragon + Fire gets perfect coverage besides Scizor (and hits Metagross, Jirachi and Skarmory that now won't WW you everytime). Heatran can't touch you anyway so yeah. I didn't test CM Latias though (only faced some - and they failed miserably to Blissey/Scarf Jirachi) so I'll stop there.

    My first impression so far is that Latias will be a healthy poke for the metagame.
  13. Super

    Super This space for rent
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    So far, I've only seen two Latias. One died to Explosion the second time it came around [the first time I scared it off], and the other finished me off, but granted I only had Hitmontop and Salamence left.

    So far, doesn't seem too broken. But it's too early to tell. Blissey made the first one switch out the first time, if I remember right, so there are some pokes that deal with it.

    Gonna try to avoid using Latias at first, then trying a Latias team later. Just to see how well I can handle it. My team looks like it's going to need a few modifications though, but nothing too serious.
  14. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    First day ended just now to me, and my first impression is that, as expected, Tyranitar and Scizor are running totally wild to stop Latias. I'm using CM/Roost/Surf/Dragon Pulse @ Life Orb, but couldn't kill much due to the damn Scizors; I tried a wacky DP/HP Fire/Roost/Subs Latias before, and it worked pretty nice, except for the obvious Tyranitars shitstorming everywhere. Tomorrow, I'm gonna fix my current team to have a more central synergy. I really have to stop those Tyranitars >:|

    And I must say that having another Wisher on the metagame is wonderful. I haven't used it with Wish yet, but just the idea of not having to choose between Blissey/Vappy/Togekiss/Jirachi every fucking time makes me happy.
  15. cim

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    Vote: Uber. Reason: It makes Empoleon worthless without Ice Beam. Overcentralizing.

    Other than making my Empoleon less awesome, Latias hasn't really given me any problems. I haven't changed my standard team yet for it other than that, which might mean it's... not broken. Should be interesting to see what happens. I've wondered if Latias over Blissey would work on Obi's stall team for some time, it still kind of counters Togekiss, still stalls well, and doesn't die to Heatran like Jirachi was on his initial draft.

    Oh well, better not get my hopes up like with Skymin.
  16. stvn

    stvn

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    Latias can't take Draco Meteors, has 0 chance of surviving against CBTar and is extremely vulnerable to status... not to mention you would need Toxic to still counter Togekiss... so I guess not. Blissey is really that good ~_~
  17. Glen ^^

    Glen ^^

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    Damn Jirachi owns CM Latias so hard with Light Screen -> U Turn. It not only kills my sub, but also leaves me wide open to their counter.

    There's better Pokemon to CM with, imo (the ones who doesn't get owned so hard by priority like Jirachi, for example). Looking OU, for now.
  18. Xenogears

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    Just wondering have you guys set the date for the last day to attain your rating for voting yet? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
  19. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    January 10, probably. We couldn't set a date before the actual Suspect Test started, and all tests of this nature are 30 days
  20. IronGross

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    I belive the battle towers in both R/S/E and D/P/Dt allow Lati@s in for a good reason. They have the same total stats as Jirachi mentioaned above, and Celebi, both OUs, While Soul Dew is indeed a great assert for them, I don't belive an item is all what needed to be an Uber.
    I hope you'll also test Mew <3...
  21. Amelia

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    I run a stall Latias @ Leftovers
    - Charm
    - Roost
    - Roar
    - Draco Meteor

    In a team with Spikes as my main theme, it worked really well. The amount of Scizors or Tyranitars switching into a Charm was hilarious. They kept switching in and out, not knowing what to do, and when other things came in to stat up, i just Roar-ed. Draco Meteor got me a few surprise kills as well.

    It's either Draco Meteor / Roost, or Wish / Protect. I'm thinking which one now...

    Metagrosses are still a threat with Clear Body though.

    Edit: Maybe Roost / Refresh as well...
  22. Brawley

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    Cm Latias is okay, but I found Specs to be the most effective, which is just an inferior specs Latios >_>
  23. nyczxjay

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    I find Scarf Latias with Trick to be effective as well:

    Latias@Choice Scarf
    Levitate
    Modest - 6 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spe
    Draco Meteor
    Grass Knot/ Surf
    Thunderbolt/ Ice Beam
    Trick

    Grass Knot is just used on my team because I needed something to help take down Swampert. Otherwise, Surf provides better coverage. Modest because Latias really needs the extra power. I guess this is basically a variation of the Specs set but it allows it to revenge kill things better, outspeeding standard Mence/Dos after a DD and OHKOing with DM/Tbolt respectively.
  24. MythTrainerInfinity

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    Hmm under first impression Latias seems very underwhelming. It seems rather difficult to set up and if it wants to CM...things like Suicune simply do it better. In terms of OU Latias seems outclassed in whatever it seems to do. Things could change though...

    Jirachi, Ttar, Scizor, and other steels seem really common and that makes her really hard to use too.
  25. nyczxjay

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    I agree with Infinity. So far CM Latias hasn't been able to set up at all against me. I wouldn't say Latias is outclassed by other OUs though. I think since the test just started, people haven't been able to figure out what is the best way to use her yet. Give it a week or two when "standard" sets for OU are (sort of) established.

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