Yes, Honchkrow can do some amazing things Absol would only dream of. I can't remember how many times I had Honch come in on my Scarf Rose Lead's Sleep Powder and just use Persuit.. D: It was so bad to the point the correct play became to actually STAY IN, and Sleep Powder TWICE just so he would take 20% from his Life Orb. /Vomit
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np: UU - Here It Goes Again
- Thread starter Caelum
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Sort-of. The actual questions ask about your level of involvement in the test and what criteria you'll be using to determine a Pokemon's tiering status (e.g. the characteristics, usage, experience etc. combination there-of or whatever it may be). You don't have to tell me what your opinions so-to-speak, but a lot of people do indirectly and those usually end up being the strongest submissions. Don't worry about it though, I'm not expecting these to be some well research thesis; the paragraphs are basically just designed to assure you are reasonably qualified to vote. You'll get more specifics once the thread is up.
This is just a general comment to everyone wanting to participate. I'm not going to be a grammar hawk, the submission just has to be coherent.
I don't really see how I was missing the point, your statement was very clear:
the fact that it can actually take a hit with that huge 100 base HP make it much more reliable
The damage calculations were quite obviously relevant to the point that I was making, namely, that Honchkrow's higher Hp is not as important as some people think it is. I agree that Honchkrow "has more than just numbers over Absol," but I wasn't talking about those things and I'm still not talking about those things, so I don't know why you keep trying to beat them into my skull.
That's odd, I found it very useful in providing evidence as to why Honchkrow's defensive stats are not that much better than Absol's. I think you very much misunderstand my original point. I'm not trying to show that Pokemon is a game of numbers, or that Absol's typing is better than Honchkrow's, or that everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot. I was simply trying to show that Honchkrow's defensive stats are not much better than Absol's.
If I may, is that even relevant to the debate at hand on its own? You have to sufficiently cover Honchkrow's typing alongside its stats if you want your argument to mean anything, and as far as I see, you have failed to address it. It looks to me as if you're just presenting a strawman.
Donphan would be a nice addition to UU. It basically functions a similar role as Steelix and it's nice not to have that Fire/Fighting weak. It's also good because it's not as easy as to revenge kill with Dugtrio.
Speaking of Dugtrio, it's gonna be very annoying because it traps and kills so many common pokemon.
Speaking of Dugtrio, it's gonna be very annoying because it traps and kills so many common pokemon.
If you're referring to the debate that jrrrrr (I think that was his original username, and I don't wanna actually call him Gay Dolphin) is basically having with himself about Honchkrow's superior typing, then you're right, what I said is totally insignificant because it has nothing to do with typing.
If you're referring to the point I was making about how, in terms of pure defensive stats, Honchkrow is not much better off than Absol, then yes, it's extremely obviously relevant. I don't see why you folks insist on having a debate with me over a subject on which I agree with you. Honchkrow's typing is better than Absol's. Honchkrow is a better Pokemon than Absol. There. What else do you want me to say, perhaps I should say those things again and bold them in all caps, or something?
On the other hand, Honchkrow's overall defensive stats are not much better than Absol's. If someone wants to actually argue about this statement, instead of derailing it to try and talk about other things, then go ahead.
Donphan and Dugtrio's (probable) addition to UU seems to change things a bit with the Suspect Test. Donphan's high defense and access to Ice Shard could make it a good Honchkrow counter. Dugtrio, meanwhile, changes a lot of things, so it's hard to say what effect it would have, but Stall is going to have a lot more trouble.
I cant see Dugtrio staying UU for long... It is a very scary thought.
I do actually wonder whether Dugtrio will harm stall more or offense more. Here's some popular offense/balance Pokes which I see as being reliably trapped or revenged by Choice Band or Life Orb Dugtrio......
Roserade--Against min Hp variants, Jolly LO Duggy has about a 2/3 shot to cleanly OHKO with Earthquake, CB is a guaranteed KO.
Mismagius--CB Night Slash is about 3/4 odds to OHKO. It can switch out, but Dugtrio does get Pursuit, which will almost certainly KO on a switch.
Registeel--Earthquake is an easy 2HKO, and Registeel's unboosted Ice Punch won't KO a healthy Dugtrio. Perhaps Duggy's arrival will finally give people more reason to use Steelix over Registeel, as Steelix takes less from Duggy's EQ and easily KOs back with Gyro Ball.
Blaziken--Even LO max SpA +nature Vacuum Wave only does 62% max to Duggy, so Blaziken's only hope to avoid being revenged is to run Choice Scarf.
Ambipom--Fake Out nearly OHKOs Dugtrio, but if Ambipom has already used that, CB Dugtrio's Earthquake has about 80% chance to KO with SR.
Moltres--Stone Edge obviously kills him, at least he can switch out though.
Rotom--Min Hp variants are facing an almost guaranteed KO from Night Slash after one SR switch-in, and like Mismagius, Pursuit can kill him if he tries to switch. Scarf variants are vulnerable to Sucker Punch, and Choice variants in general are gonna have to be really, really careful about using T-bolt.
Drapion--CB Earthquake is an easy KO on offensive versions, although bulkier variants can survive.
Espeon--CB Earthquake is a near guaranteed OHKO.
The prevalence of priority in UU prevents Dugtrio from being as scary as it might be, for example Hitmonlee and Arcanine both take tons from Earthquake but are unlikely to be revenged because they carry strong priority moves which will likely KO Dugtrio, but still. A metagame where Dugtrio usage is prevalent would really hinder the use of Blaziken, UU's trophy stallbreaker. Anyone who runs a wallbreaking variant of Blaziken would come up short against offense teams carrying Dugtrio, but without Blaziken, you lose one of the best weapons against stall. Meanwhile, stall teams only have one or two Pokemon vulnerable to being trapped by Dugtrio, and they can simply run Shed Shell if he's that big of a problem. Blaziken could run Shed Shell too I suppose, but he's not gonna be nearly as good at wallbreaking without his Life Orb.
Roserade--Against min Hp variants, Jolly LO Duggy has about a 2/3 shot to cleanly OHKO with Earthquake, CB is a guaranteed KO.
Mismagius--CB Night Slash is about 3/4 odds to OHKO. It can switch out, but Dugtrio does get Pursuit, which will almost certainly KO on a switch.
Registeel--Earthquake is an easy 2HKO, and Registeel's unboosted Ice Punch won't KO a healthy Dugtrio. Perhaps Duggy's arrival will finally give people more reason to use Steelix over Registeel, as Steelix takes less from Duggy's EQ and easily KOs back with Gyro Ball.
Blaziken--Even LO max SpA +nature Vacuum Wave only does 62% max to Duggy, so Blaziken's only hope to avoid being revenged is to run Choice Scarf.
Ambipom--Fake Out nearly OHKOs Dugtrio, but if Ambipom has already used that, CB Dugtrio's Earthquake has about 80% chance to KO with SR.
Moltres--Stone Edge obviously kills him, at least he can switch out though.
Rotom--Min Hp variants are facing an almost guaranteed KO from Night Slash after one SR switch-in, and like Mismagius, Pursuit can kill him if he tries to switch. Scarf variants are vulnerable to Sucker Punch, and Choice variants in general are gonna have to be really, really careful about using T-bolt.
Drapion--CB Earthquake is an easy KO on offensive versions, although bulkier variants can survive.
Espeon--CB Earthquake is a near guaranteed OHKO.
The prevalence of priority in UU prevents Dugtrio from being as scary as it might be, for example Hitmonlee and Arcanine both take tons from Earthquake but are unlikely to be revenged because they carry strong priority moves which will likely KO Dugtrio, but still. A metagame where Dugtrio usage is prevalent would really hinder the use of Blaziken, UU's trophy stallbreaker. Anyone who runs a wallbreaking variant of Blaziken would come up short against offense teams carrying Dugtrio, but without Blaziken, you lose one of the best weapons against stall. Meanwhile, stall teams only have one or two Pokemon vulnerable to being trapped by Dugtrio, and they can simply run Shed Shell if he's that big of a problem. Blaziken could run Shed Shell too I suppose, but he's not gonna be nearly as good at wallbreaking without his Life Orb.
Well, although Dugtrio may hurt UU's "best" stallbreaker it will also help kill stall as well. Like you said it takes out Registeel, Roserade, Mismagius if people use that as a spin blocker, Nightslash probably won't do much to Uxie or Slowbro, EQ will do significant damage to Chansey because it can 2hko Blissey. I think it will be a good edition to UU and not broken (although it's speed may be a problem).
Whenever X-Act does the tier list, should be sometime in the next 2 days I'd imagine. The calculation method is publicly known so if you are that curious you can do it yourself.
Guys, stop worrying around Dugtrio and Donphan right now. We'll deal with it if they ever become a problem. If they are as truly devastating as some of you might claim (or even if they are UU since I haven't calculated it myself or even looked at where they are in the stats) then I can easily have Doug remove them without a vote if it becomes obvious they are ridiculously overpowered.
Donphan and Dugtrio are now officially in. Donphan seems like a good addition, and one more reason not to ban Honchkrow, with high defense and Ice Shard. A good Rapid Spinner is always appreciated.
Dugtrio will definitely shake things up, but it's hard to say if it would actually be broken. 80 base attack isn't all that high. Plus, it is very weak to strong priority attacks and pursuit, allowing Absol (and possibly Honchkrow) to put in serious trouble. A pursuiting Hitmontop can also take it down. Porygon2, who has not left us, can trap it right back and kill it with Ice Beam.
Still, though, the above is all theorymon, which we know to be questionable at best. Only playtesting will tell.
Dugtrio will definitely shake things up, but it's hard to say if it would actually be broken. 80 base attack isn't all that high. Plus, it is very weak to strong priority attacks and pursuit, allowing Absol (and possibly Honchkrow) to put in serious trouble. A pursuiting Hitmontop can also take it down. Porygon2, who has not left us, can trap it right back and kill it with Ice Beam.
Still, though, the above is all theorymon, which we know to be questionable at best. Only playtesting will tell.
I'd like to note that even though the new UU list is available, it doesn't mean that the required changes to the UU ladder will be immediately done. In fact, I think that it would be smarter to finish the current UU testing first, and then change the UU ladder bans to reflect the new list (basically ban Umbreon and add Donphan and Dugtrio).
Wow, not just one but TWO Ground types that Roserade doesn't obliterate on the spot introduced to UU? Very cool.
As mentioned already, Donphan has massive potential particularly as a Choice Bander with Rapid Spin, able to function well as a revenge-killer, spinner and overall powerful (and physically sturdy) attacker all in one. The question is whether such variants would prefer Assurance or Stone Edge, as Ice Shard and Earthquake seem indispensable.
Dugtrio is the most exciting however. Stall will go through some significant changes in particular, and I can see a likely increase in the usage of Shed Shell, Knock Off and Porygon2. The effect on Toxic Spikes usage is much harder to predict from theorymon alone.
I wonder what the most favored combinations will be, as they are bound to occur. YanTrio and SwellTrio seem like the most obvious ones, more likely YanTrio as SwellTrio has (bigger) Donphan issues. Yanmega may now be more inclined to run HP Ice / Rock over HP Ground with Duggy lessening the burden on type coverage. Then of course there's the question of Adamant or Jolly; which will be Dugtrio's preferred nature?
This is going to be so exciting, I'm so glad I now have the time to participate in this round of testing!
As mentioned already, Donphan has massive potential particularly as a Choice Bander with Rapid Spin, able to function well as a revenge-killer, spinner and overall powerful (and physically sturdy) attacker all in one. The question is whether such variants would prefer Assurance or Stone Edge, as Ice Shard and Earthquake seem indispensable.
Dugtrio is the most exciting however. Stall will go through some significant changes in particular, and I can see a likely increase in the usage of Shed Shell, Knock Off and Porygon2. The effect on Toxic Spikes usage is much harder to predict from theorymon alone.
I wonder what the most favored combinations will be, as they are bound to occur. YanTrio and SwellTrio seem like the most obvious ones, more likely YanTrio as SwellTrio has (bigger) Donphan issues. Yanmega may now be more inclined to run HP Ice / Rock over HP Ground with Duggy lessening the burden on type coverage. Then of course there's the question of Adamant or Jolly; which will be Dugtrio's preferred nature?
This is going to be so exciting, I'm so glad I now have the time to participate in this round of testing!
Not sure what this has to do with the new changes, but while we're at it I'd love to see Raikou get retested again. That'll be a laugh.
In all seriousness though, I want to see Raikou and Gallade retested in addition to Froslass, simply because I don't think their polls were convincing enough. Just have a little bit of patience, I'm sure it will happen eventually, possibly at the end of this upcoming round of testing.
I agree with Gallade and Raikou retesting as well. For a second I though I saw Staraptor and was like no thank you >.>.
Gallade and Raikou were toward the beggining of new UU where it was obvious people still had the mindset that BL's and UU's just don't mix. So I think a retest shouldn't seem so outlandish.
Gallade and Raikou were toward the beggining of new UU where it was obvious people still had the mindset that BL's and UU's just don't mix. So I think a retest shouldn't seem so outlandish.
I see Donphan sitting comfortably in UU. Not too strong but not too weak. It'll probably be a standard.
I think people need to realize that Dugtrio probably hurts offense much more then stall. I mean, besides priority what can kill it? Sceptile/Swellow are like the only options. And scarfers. And at this point Dugtrio has already killed off a poke and can switch out. I mean, Blaziken, Espeon, Drapion, Magmortar, Nidoking, and Roserade all just took major hits. Running Dugtrio on a stall team actually seems pretty fucking viable. Have a slow bulky U-turner like Mesprit U-turn to Dugtrio and kill off there threats one by one. After that it's easy to stall out the opponents poke's because their wallbreaker(s) are gone. Dugtrio could be good insurance on stall teams against those fast threats, it'll be the second Crobat, and will probably be bettr because the opponents sweepers can't run away. Dugtrio can come in on Electric and Rock attacks. Prediction is needed though. Mixken trying to kill your Milotic with HP electric? Switch to Dugtrio and rid of it.
Stall can adapt much better IMO. Dugtrio won't be killing Milotic, Hitmontop, Donphan, Altaria, Mesprit, Uxie or Spiritomb anytime soon. I'll give you Roserade and Chansey, but they can run shed shell much easier then offensive pokes. (Blaziken needs lifeorb) And they both have recovery so losing lefties won't be a big deal.
But I agree that Dugtrio will probably bring a shift to bulky offense. Hitmontop, LO Milotic, SD Venusaur all seem like pokes that can get tons of useage because of Dugtrio. Not to mention that with Crobat/Honchkrow gone and with Dugtrios new inclusion, CM Mesprit/Uxie can be incredibly deadly.
I'm just theorymoning here, but we'll see what happens.
I think people need to realize that Dugtrio probably hurts offense much more then stall. I mean, besides priority what can kill it? Sceptile/Swellow are like the only options. And scarfers. And at this point Dugtrio has already killed off a poke and can switch out. I mean, Blaziken, Espeon, Drapion, Magmortar, Nidoking, and Roserade all just took major hits. Running Dugtrio on a stall team actually seems pretty fucking viable. Have a slow bulky U-turner like Mesprit U-turn to Dugtrio and kill off there threats one by one. After that it's easy to stall out the opponents poke's because their wallbreaker(s) are gone. Dugtrio could be good insurance on stall teams against those fast threats, it'll be the second Crobat, and will probably be bettr because the opponents sweepers can't run away. Dugtrio can come in on Electric and Rock attacks. Prediction is needed though. Mixken trying to kill your Milotic with HP electric? Switch to Dugtrio and rid of it.
Stall can adapt much better IMO. Dugtrio won't be killing Milotic, Hitmontop, Donphan, Altaria, Mesprit, Uxie or Spiritomb anytime soon. I'll give you Roserade and Chansey, but they can run shed shell much easier then offensive pokes. (Blaziken needs lifeorb) And they both have recovery so losing lefties won't be a big deal.
But I agree that Dugtrio will probably bring a shift to bulky offense. Hitmontop, LO Milotic, SD Venusaur all seem like pokes that can get tons of useage because of Dugtrio. Not to mention that with Crobat/Honchkrow gone and with Dugtrios new inclusion, CM Mesprit/Uxie can be incredibly deadly.
I'm just theorymoning here, but we'll see what happens.
Just a side question:
Umbreon is moving up to OU due to its usage. I know OU is defined solely on usage, but if a pokemon moves between OU and UU, should it be banned from UU each time? It seems to me a lot of pokemon can survive healthily in both metagames, such as P2, Spiritomb, Umbreon, etc. Pokemon usage in the Ubers tier doesn't insta-ban that pokemon from OU, why should it be the same for UU? Even tho we don't see this problem all that often, what becomes of Donphan or Dugtrio (if it even stays UU) if they head back to OU the next month? Should a pokemon be automatically considered for BL if they have enough usage to avoid this problem?
Umbreon is moving up to OU due to its usage. I know OU is defined solely on usage, but if a pokemon moves between OU and UU, should it be banned from UU each time? It seems to me a lot of pokemon can survive healthily in both metagames, such as P2, Spiritomb, Umbreon, etc. Pokemon usage in the Ubers tier doesn't insta-ban that pokemon from OU, why should it be the same for UU? Even tho we don't see this problem all that often, what becomes of Donphan or Dugtrio (if it even stays UU) if they head back to OU the next month? Should a pokemon be automatically considered for BL if they have enough usage to avoid this problem?
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