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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
@Karilyn: You did a good job compiling all of Garchomp's traits. But you have failed to explain why that matters. Is Garchomp not going to be uber if he loses one of those traits? If Garchomp's Attack drops to 120, is he not going to be uber anymore? If Sandveil is removed, does it no longer matter? The thing about listing out traits and ending it there and calling it uber is that you're just turning the definition of uber to fit that Pokemon, which is bad. All your post will do is draw people attacking each individual traits, like RaikouLover and a few other users did.
So let's drop this discussion of just traits (which we are beginning to do, so we're getting somewhere). The point to discuss isn't just Garchomp's traits, but why Garchomp's traits matter. We can't just ban by traits, we decide on uber based on what it does in the metagame.
This post is a very good start on what I want to see in this thread, although I'd like to see slightly better reasoning, and more on the impact of the metagame. I think this post is a very good place to start discussion (which is what Metanite is doing, good job). This post is also very very good in terms of what kind of discussion we want.
Just make sure when you respond you're not strawmanning it. Make sure you know its effects on the metagame before yelling out to get it banned. Tinker around with it, find new ways to deal with Garchomp and still find a way to win. Or maybe you can argue that the presence of Garchomp stifles changes in the metagame (this is actually quite true back from the DP days, but I wonder how much this has changed now), and why that may be a bad thing. Think a bit more. We don't want to say "this doesn't have counters" or "this is a bad metagame because of X" - we want to know why that means it's a bad metagame. Be detailed - it's the only way we're getting anything out of this discussion.
So let's drop this discussion of just traits (which we are beginning to do, so we're getting somewhere). The point to discuss isn't just Garchomp's traits, but why Garchomp's traits matter. We can't just ban by traits, we decide on uber based on what it does in the metagame.
This post is a very good start on what I want to see in this thread, although I'd like to see slightly better reasoning, and more on the impact of the metagame. I think this post is a very good place to start discussion (which is what Metanite is doing, good job). This post is also very very good in terms of what kind of discussion we want.
Just make sure when you respond you're not strawmanning it. Make sure you know its effects on the metagame before yelling out to get it banned. Tinker around with it, find new ways to deal with Garchomp and still find a way to win. Or maybe you can argue that the presence of Garchomp stifles changes in the metagame (this is actually quite true back from the DP days, but I wonder how much this has changed now), and why that may be a bad thing. Think a bit more. We don't want to say "this doesn't have counters" or "this is a bad metagame because of X" - we want to know why that means it's a bad metagame. Be detailed - it's the only way we're getting anything out of this discussion.
''we want to know why that means it's a bad metagame. Be detailed - it's the only way we're getting anything out of this discussion.''
In my opinion it is a bad metagame, because we are forced to run sets like Haban-Latias for the sole purpose of checking one threat. Haban Latias really can't do nothing except for this and ruining Mixed-Mence to an extent, which won't be existant in a metagame with Chomp, Latias and Scizor.
We are forced to run the same combinations in all teams which means:in offense: a faster dragon, a faster ice move user, and Scizor/Lucario for sub salac.
in defense: a bulky ice move user, that cannot be koed by a +2 EQ+Skarmory/Bronzong. In fact when people nowadays make so called ''standard ou teams'' to make fun of the current centralization, I can tell you this won't be a spoof anymore when Chomp is around, because 70% of all offensive teams will have Chomp Latias Scizor and Gyarados and 70% of all defensive teams Swampert, Skarmory and Gyarados. There won't be any place for own team ideas, Chomp must be used ( I mean why wouldn't you use a sweeper that benefits from entry hazards and sand, as well as being able to revenge quiete alot offensive threats, you must be crazy not to use it in stall as well as in offense), Skarm must be used, Pert/gyarados must be used and none of your pokes should be set up fodder. So Blissey gets Ice Beam, Starmie gets Ice Beam, TTar gets a shuca and Ice Beam, Latias gets a Haban, Chomp gets a Haban, Celebi gets Reflect at least, Rotom gets a scarf and hp ice, Metagross gets a shuca and Ice Punch
and everything else that could be used as set up fodder, like Tentacruel, Forry, Wisp-Rotom, Bait-Tar, Metagross with Th-Punch, Heatran etc. will disappear.
Can't you see the difference between Chomp and other sweepers? Noone would stop using Latias because of DD-Tar, or Lucario because of DD-gyarados, or CB-Tar because of Lucario. But that is what happens with Chomp.
LO Metagross? not usuable, EQ kos it. Lo-Heatran: sucks too many Chomps and Latias,
Bait-Tar/CB-Tar: You fool!, Starmie without Ice Beam: You are begging for a Chomp sweep. Celebi without hp ice/reflect: set up fodder yummy
Scarfed Rotom/wisp rotom without hp ice: Chomp says hi
Jolteon without hp ice: Thanks for the free turn mate.
The list is endless, and just because letting Chomp get a free turn is absolutely deadly, and no other sweeper can get free turns so easily, which is why you have to use ice attacks/phazing/dragon/strong priority attacks on every mon, which actually is the case in suspect. The whole metagame is about not giving any free turns to Chomp, which is fairly ridiculous.
In my opinion it is a bad metagame, because we are forced to run sets like Haban-Latias for the sole purpose of checking one threat. Haban Latias really can't do nothing except for this and ruining Mixed-Mence to an extent, which won't be existant in a metagame with Chomp, Latias and Scizor.
We are forced to run the same combinations in all teams which means:in offense: a faster dragon, a faster ice move user, and Scizor/Lucario for sub salac.
in defense: a bulky ice move user, that cannot be koed by a +2 EQ+Skarmory/Bronzong. In fact when people nowadays make so called ''standard ou teams'' to make fun of the current centralization, I can tell you this won't be a spoof anymore when Chomp is around, because 70% of all offensive teams will have Chomp Latias Scizor and Gyarados and 70% of all defensive teams Swampert, Skarmory and Gyarados. There won't be any place for own team ideas, Chomp must be used ( I mean why wouldn't you use a sweeper that benefits from entry hazards and sand, as well as being able to revenge quiete alot offensive threats, you must be crazy not to use it in stall as well as in offense), Skarm must be used, Pert/gyarados must be used and none of your pokes should be set up fodder. So Blissey gets Ice Beam, Starmie gets Ice Beam, TTar gets a shuca and Ice Beam, Latias gets a Haban, Chomp gets a Haban, Celebi gets Reflect at least, Rotom gets a scarf and hp ice, Metagross gets a shuca and Ice Punch
and everything else that could be used as set up fodder, like Tentacruel, Forry, Wisp-Rotom, Bait-Tar, Metagross with Th-Punch, Heatran etc. will disappear.
Can't you see the difference between Chomp and other sweepers? Noone would stop using Latias because of DD-Tar, or Lucario because of DD-gyarados, or CB-Tar because of Lucario. But that is what happens with Chomp.
LO Metagross? not usuable, EQ kos it. Lo-Heatran: sucks too many Chomps and Latias,
Bait-Tar/CB-Tar: You fool!, Starmie without Ice Beam: You are begging for a Chomp sweep. Celebi without hp ice/reflect: set up fodder yummy
Scarfed Rotom/wisp rotom without hp ice: Chomp says hi
Jolteon without hp ice: Thanks for the free turn mate.
The list is endless, and just because letting Chomp get a free turn is absolutely deadly, and no other sweeper can get free turns so easily, which is why you have to use ice attacks/phazing/dragon/strong priority attacks on every mon, which actually is the case in suspect. The whole metagame is about not giving any free turns to Chomp, which is fairly ridiculous.
Hmmm, I do think that the threat Garchomp's SD set represents is hyped to excess.
Garchomp could possibly be the best overall Pokemon in OU, should it enter, but I don't consider it the best sweeper under all circumstances.
It has been demonstrated that its damage output is comparable or inferior to similar powerful cleaners we have been dealing with satisfactorily.
Of SDLuke, DDMence, and SDChomp, Garchomp ends up having the least damage output.
Why, when it has higher base attack than Lucario and a move that doubles attack unlike Salamence?
Because it has effectively lower sweeping speed due to lack of priority and lack of a speed buff.
As a result, most SD Garchomp run Jolly and a defensive item rather than Adamant/Naughty and LO.
Garchomp's much vaunted base 102 speed means it's outrun by everything from base 105 up or neutral base 65 scarfers up (lol).
I can't think of many things that lack priority that try to sweep at such low speed.
Of course, it can clean up if faster checks were eliminated but that hardly fits the criteria of requiring little effort.
OTOH DDMence outruns everything save for (+ve base 100)+ scarfers and Lucario will eliminate most faster threats with +2, LO ExtremeSpeed (heck Chomp is 2HKOd by this).
With regard to durability, Garchomp's base defensive stats are impressive but are rarely invested with EVs and tell only part of the story.
Lucario appears relatively frail with 70 defenses but it takes reduced damage from 10 of the 17 elemental types including Rock, Bug and Dark quad resists.
With a Rock quad resist it takes real puny damage from SR and ignores TSpikes due to the Steel typing.
Lets take a look at some damage percentages against some common powerful attacks:
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB TTar Stone Edge:
35.23% and 43.42%
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB TTar Crunch:
28.11% and 69.75%
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB Scizor U-turn:
24.20% and 59.66%
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB Scizor Bullet Punch (just for kicks)
41.64% and 51.26%
So I'd argue that despite its poor defenses on paper, Lucario's ability to switch in and threaten is not as limited as it would appear.
Garchomp, OTOH, has to be more careful and conservative than his bloated HP stat might suggest.
Especially since a Yache is poor defense when Garchomp has already lost a chunk of its health.
In summary: Garchomp hits about as hard as other top OU tier sweepers, is not quite fast enough to sweep cleanly, and does not switch in and set up as freely as is often suggested since it can be 2HKOed by strong neutral hits.
IMO, it does not present an excessively overwhelming offensive threat compared to other hard hitting Pokemon in the tier but it does present a significant threat on par with them.
Furthermore, a few of the other OU threats are more versatile, being able to use Mixed and Specs sets to greater effect.
Garchomp has three main tricks: Scarf, Band and SD (w or w/o Sub) all of which can be scouted by Skarmory and handled from there depending on the set.
I think it is important to make sincere efforts to handle Garchomp without balking at every adjustment ones has to make.
I guarantee you that if Azelf were not in OU and then was suddently dropped into the metagame, it's efficacy as a lead would prompt significant changes in other leads.
So we cannot expect Garchomp to enter without even a ripple, but is it an unstoppable Tsunami?
Garchomp's Ice weaknesses is shared by several of the Metagame's offensive and defensive theats so running an Ice attack can't be all that useless for everything else.
The metagame is already extensively physical so how gimmicky will Reflect be if you opt to run it on a Pokemon?
Spikes hits TTar, Lucario, Scizor as well as Garchomp and does not preclude SR so is it too specialized?
I say no.
Since its setup set is neither consistently faster nor harder hitting than other similar Pokemon in OU (thus it cannot sweep most teams with little effort, if they cannot), it still has exploitable weaknesses, and it does not require bizarre containment procedures, I believe Garchomp is not Uber.
I think I've said as much as I want to or anyone will care to read so Sayonara, for a few days!
Garchomp could possibly be the best overall Pokemon in OU, should it enter, but I don't consider it the best sweeper under all circumstances.
It has been demonstrated that its damage output is comparable or inferior to similar powerful cleaners we have been dealing with satisfactorily.
Of SDLuke, DDMence, and SDChomp, Garchomp ends up having the least damage output.
Why, when it has higher base attack than Lucario and a move that doubles attack unlike Salamence?
Because it has effectively lower sweeping speed due to lack of priority and lack of a speed buff.
As a result, most SD Garchomp run Jolly and a defensive item rather than Adamant/Naughty and LO.
Garchomp's much vaunted base 102 speed means it's outrun by everything from base 105 up or neutral base 65 scarfers up (lol).
I can't think of many things that lack priority that try to sweep at such low speed.
Of course, it can clean up if faster checks were eliminated but that hardly fits the criteria of requiring little effort.
OTOH DDMence outruns everything save for (+ve base 100)+ scarfers and Lucario will eliminate most faster threats with +2, LO ExtremeSpeed (heck Chomp is 2HKOd by this).
With regard to durability, Garchomp's base defensive stats are impressive but are rarely invested with EVs and tell only part of the story.
Lucario appears relatively frail with 70 defenses but it takes reduced damage from 10 of the 17 elemental types including Rock, Bug and Dark quad resists.
With a Rock quad resist it takes real puny damage from SR and ignores TSpikes due to the Steel typing.
Lets take a look at some damage percentages against some common powerful attacks:
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB TTar Stone Edge:
35.23% and 43.42%
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB TTar Crunch:
28.11% and 69.75%
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB Scizor U-turn:
24.20% and 59.66%
Lucario and Garchomp versus CB Scizor Bullet Punch (just for kicks)
41.64% and 51.26%
So I'd argue that despite its poor defenses on paper, Lucario's ability to switch in and threaten is not as limited as it would appear.
Garchomp, OTOH, has to be more careful and conservative than his bloated HP stat might suggest.
Especially since a Yache is poor defense when Garchomp has already lost a chunk of its health.
In summary: Garchomp hits about as hard as other top OU tier sweepers, is not quite fast enough to sweep cleanly, and does not switch in and set up as freely as is often suggested since it can be 2HKOed by strong neutral hits.
IMO, it does not present an excessively overwhelming offensive threat compared to other hard hitting Pokemon in the tier but it does present a significant threat on par with them.
Furthermore, a few of the other OU threats are more versatile, being able to use Mixed and Specs sets to greater effect.
Garchomp has three main tricks: Scarf, Band and SD (w or w/o Sub) all of which can be scouted by Skarmory and handled from there depending on the set.
I think it is important to make sincere efforts to handle Garchomp without balking at every adjustment ones has to make.
I guarantee you that if Azelf were not in OU and then was suddently dropped into the metagame, it's efficacy as a lead would prompt significant changes in other leads.
So we cannot expect Garchomp to enter without even a ripple, but is it an unstoppable Tsunami?
Garchomp's Ice weaknesses is shared by several of the Metagame's offensive and defensive theats so running an Ice attack can't be all that useless for everything else.
The metagame is already extensively physical so how gimmicky will Reflect be if you opt to run it on a Pokemon?
Spikes hits TTar, Lucario, Scizor as well as Garchomp and does not preclude SR so is it too specialized?
I say no.
Since its setup set is neither consistently faster nor harder hitting than other similar Pokemon in OU (thus it cannot sweep most teams with little effort, if they cannot), it still has exploitable weaknesses, and it does not require bizarre containment procedures, I believe Garchomp is not Uber.
I think I've said as much as I want to or anyone will care to read so Sayonara, for a few days!
I've been playing suspect a bit, not a ton, but I've been reading this thread and just want to ask something that I've found as flawed logic in a lot of posts:
"GARCHOMP IS BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER OU SWEEPER"
...So? Why does being the best make it Uber? Simply because it's the number one threat shouldn't force it into a higher tier or Scizor and Mence would be soon to follow it (just as examples, please don't turn responses into a battle over who's the current top OU sweeper since it'll detrack from the point). Being the best doesn't make it too good. Just something I've noticed in a lot of posts here as a comparison.
I personally am on the fence about Garchomp, leaning OU because I like him, lol. I have no problem saying he deserved UBER in D/P but Pt and the metagame shift that came with it has allowed quite a few more checks to Garchomp in Latias and Scizor and the simple fact that priority is very well liked and appreciated in this metagame. Almost every team has priority of some type which makes Garchomp's nifty speed number mean a bit less (although it's still a major factor in it's power). Remember, this post is just something to contemplate. I also just want to point out one other flawed argument about Garchomp, although it is less present and outright dumb than this one: Sand Veil being compared to Stone Edge or other lower accuracy moves. There are a few major differences with this. One is obviously, you have no choice in the matter. I can use Flamethrower over Fire Blast for the better accuracy if I want (I don't personally, but some people do due to accuracy and PP), but you lose power. It's a trade-off between power and accuracy you get to make the choice in. You don't have that with Garchomp's Sand Veil. Of course people are also overstating how gamebreaking it is since the only move that's gonna OHKO Garchomp with less than 100% accuracy that is commonly used is Draco Meteor (no one uses Blizzard outside of Hail) and the fact that sand isn't always up is another major factor. But yeah, I just think people overstate the gamebreaking ability of Sand Veil, but misunderstand how to consider it. You can't compare it to a low accuracy move since you have an option with the low accuracy move to use another move in it's place in exchange for slightly lower power.
I think Manaphy is OU IMO. He's dangerous if you're not prepared for it. So is Mence and so is Scizor. He's a bulky water and Tyranitar loves screwing with CroPhy's Rain ( :D ). He has about 3 viable sets all of which sacrifice something that people peg him Uber for. His offensive Tail Glow sweeping sets are 2HKOd by most of the metagame and require to LO to 1-2HKO anything key, his defensive sets sacrifice the power of the offensive set, Manaphy itself is still 2-3HKO by most of OU (not counting the top tier damage dealers or super effective moves) and won't 3HKO with neutral attacks against most OU pokes. And the CroPhy set doesn't like it's rain being disrupted and is limited to the one attack, just like CroCune. The problem is, of course, knowing the set, which is a lot easier to do than against some of the most versatile 100 Base legends like Jirachi and Celery. Just some thoughts.
These are just my opinions, feel free to disagree if you want. :P
"GARCHOMP IS BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER OU SWEEPER"
...So? Why does being the best make it Uber? Simply because it's the number one threat shouldn't force it into a higher tier or Scizor and Mence would be soon to follow it (just as examples, please don't turn responses into a battle over who's the current top OU sweeper since it'll detrack from the point). Being the best doesn't make it too good. Just something I've noticed in a lot of posts here as a comparison.
I personally am on the fence about Garchomp, leaning OU because I like him, lol. I have no problem saying he deserved UBER in D/P but Pt and the metagame shift that came with it has allowed quite a few more checks to Garchomp in Latias and Scizor and the simple fact that priority is very well liked and appreciated in this metagame. Almost every team has priority of some type which makes Garchomp's nifty speed number mean a bit less (although it's still a major factor in it's power). Remember, this post is just something to contemplate. I also just want to point out one other flawed argument about Garchomp, although it is less present and outright dumb than this one: Sand Veil being compared to Stone Edge or other lower accuracy moves. There are a few major differences with this. One is obviously, you have no choice in the matter. I can use Flamethrower over Fire Blast for the better accuracy if I want (I don't personally, but some people do due to accuracy and PP), but you lose power. It's a trade-off between power and accuracy you get to make the choice in. You don't have that with Garchomp's Sand Veil. Of course people are also overstating how gamebreaking it is since the only move that's gonna OHKO Garchomp with less than 100% accuracy that is commonly used is Draco Meteor (no one uses Blizzard outside of Hail) and the fact that sand isn't always up is another major factor. But yeah, I just think people overstate the gamebreaking ability of Sand Veil, but misunderstand how to consider it. You can't compare it to a low accuracy move since you have an option with the low accuracy move to use another move in it's place in exchange for slightly lower power.
I think Manaphy is OU IMO. He's dangerous if you're not prepared for it. So is Mence and so is Scizor. He's a bulky water and Tyranitar loves screwing with CroPhy's Rain ( :D ). He has about 3 viable sets all of which sacrifice something that people peg him Uber for. His offensive Tail Glow sweeping sets are 2HKOd by most of the metagame and require to LO to 1-2HKO anything key, his defensive sets sacrifice the power of the offensive set, Manaphy itself is still 2-3HKO by most of OU (not counting the top tier damage dealers or super effective moves) and won't 3HKO with neutral attacks against most OU pokes. And the CroPhy set doesn't like it's rain being disrupted and is limited to the one attack, just like CroCune. The problem is, of course, knowing the set, which is a lot easier to do than against some of the most versatile 100 Base legends like Jirachi and Celery. Just some thoughts.
These are just my opinions, feel free to disagree if you want. :P
I must say I appreciate the last two posts. And I second everything deluge said.
For those of us believing Garchomp is OU, we don't believe or hint for a second that he will not be the most "powerful" or used pokemon in OU. We just believe he just doesn't have enough in the current metagame to warrant Uber status.
Deluge pretty much said everything there is to be said for my standpoint. Garchomp doesn't fit the offensive characteristics because he is too slow to sweep. Period. Hell, even pokemon like Nasty Plot Azelf and Infernape are considered too slow to sweep in a metagame littered with Choice Scarfers and priority. He has the power and defensive build to give teams trouble and take a few pokemon down with it (or at least a wall), but will not be sweeping teams with "ease."
Garchomp obviously doesn't fit the defensive characteristic because he lacks the support movepool or reliable recovery to make a gamebreaking wall. He also lacks an important ingredient deluge touched on, RESISTENCES. Resisting only Fire, Poison, and Rock with an immunity to Electricity, and a common 4Xs weakness to ice, it is safe to say Chomp won't be able to fully use his awesome defense stats to wall a vast majority of the metagame.
As for the support characteristic, Chomp is a decent wall-breaker with both the Swords Dance and Choice Band sets. However, Chomp is never guarenteed to take out a wall much like Wobbeffet was, and does not give your team an instant advantage for the entire match like Spike-stacking Deoxys-E could do as a Taunting hyper fast lead. Yes, he can lure in and bring down Skarmory or Bronzong in two hits, but many other pokemon in OU can lure in and defeat their counters with the right sets. Examples being Expert Belt Tyranitar and Tyraniboah, SpecsLuke, Bounce Gyarados, and Explosion wielding Special sweepers such as Gengar, Azelf, and Heatran.
With all that being said, I would definately vouch for Garchomp being OU though I picked a bad time to come back into pokemon :(.
For those of us believing Garchomp is OU, we don't believe or hint for a second that he will not be the most "powerful" or used pokemon in OU. We just believe he just doesn't have enough in the current metagame to warrant Uber status.
Deluge pretty much said everything there is to be said for my standpoint. Garchomp doesn't fit the offensive characteristics because he is too slow to sweep. Period. Hell, even pokemon like Nasty Plot Azelf and Infernape are considered too slow to sweep in a metagame littered with Choice Scarfers and priority. He has the power and defensive build to give teams trouble and take a few pokemon down with it (or at least a wall), but will not be sweeping teams with "ease."
Garchomp obviously doesn't fit the defensive characteristic because he lacks the support movepool or reliable recovery to make a gamebreaking wall. He also lacks an important ingredient deluge touched on, RESISTENCES. Resisting only Fire, Poison, and Rock with an immunity to Electricity, and a common 4Xs weakness to ice, it is safe to say Chomp won't be able to fully use his awesome defense stats to wall a vast majority of the metagame.
As for the support characteristic, Chomp is a decent wall-breaker with both the Swords Dance and Choice Band sets. However, Chomp is never guarenteed to take out a wall much like Wobbeffet was, and does not give your team an instant advantage for the entire match like Spike-stacking Deoxys-E could do as a Taunting hyper fast lead. Yes, he can lure in and bring down Skarmory or Bronzong in two hits, but many other pokemon in OU can lure in and defeat their counters with the right sets. Examples being Expert Belt Tyranitar and Tyraniboah, SpecsLuke, Bounce Gyarados, and Explosion wielding Special sweepers such as Gengar, Azelf, and Heatran.
With all that being said, I would definately vouch for Garchomp being OU though I picked a bad time to come back into pokemon :(.
I said this before, and I'll say it again, because both of your posts touches on what I was saying.
You can actually hold a debate over who is the current top OU sweeper. Each one has their strengths, advantages, and weaknesses. Garchomp manages to bypass that. There really is no debate with him; the few weaknesses he has are fairly easy to work around.
Now you are right, that doesn't quite make him Uber, at least not in my opinion, and I should hope not in most people's opinions.
It's the combination of that, with Sand Veil, which CAL-Ciaran had nice big paragraph on. Does Sand Veil make Gliscor Uber? Of course not. Gliscor isn't in the same league as Garchomp; it's a good Pokemon, but it wouldn't even be in the running for a debate for top OU sweeper.
In my mind, and I doubt I will change anyone else's mind, anymore than I will change theirs... The fact that, without it's Ability, Garchomp is without peer, the best OU sweeper... and then it gets a passive 20% reduced accuracy of your opponents moves. People run priority moves. But priority moves still have that 20% chance to miss. People don't run 100% hit chance abilities... and honestly, that is probably more required to consistently counter Garchomp than priority moves.
In my mind, it's tbeing the indiscriminately best OU sweeper combined with his ability, that makes it Uber based on a combination of the offensive and defensive characteristic.
Take my opinion with a grain of salt.
EDIT: I find it fascinating how people can look at the exact same thing, and come to vastly different conclusions.
Is there any chance this post can be edited into the first page? Or generally made a must read?
I found this post to be very convincing and good. Argued both sides of the spectrum and didn't put a conclusion until the very end. Although it's not like I can do anything about it. I haven't played on suspect yet and making on the list would take forever.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2317985&postcount=635
Chomp doesn't have many resistances and lost some good dragon ones. (Grass and Water come to mind)
His notable gains are rock and ground.
Chomp's ice weakness is a pretty big weakness imo. Players are more inclined to use Yache berry to work around that weakness. (Missing out on the benefits of choice band and choice scarf)
PS: People ALWAYS bring out Yache chomp as his best set, but I'm more inclined to believe that Choice and Scarf are better for him.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2317985&postcount=635
Not really. Chomp's defensive typing isn't as good as Scizor who has MASS amount of resistances and is only weak to Fire. (albeit big)
Chomp doesn't have many resistances and lost some good dragon ones. (Grass and Water come to mind)
His notable gains are rock and ground.
Chomp's ice weakness is a pretty big weakness imo. Players are more inclined to use Yache berry to work around that weakness. (Missing out on the benefits of choice band and choice scarf)
PS: People ALWAYS bring out Yache chomp as his best set, but I'm more inclined to believe that Choice and Scarf are better for him.
I'm going to now challenge the Garchomp OU Camp to answer the following question.
What stops your arguments from being used against Rayquaza? What stops your arguments from being used against even slower sweepers? Why is it that these Pokemon are Uber and Garchomp isn't? This is the line that you guys need to establish, what makes Garchomp not uber not just because "he's too slow to sweep" or "he's not bulky enough" or "We can deal with him because he has a 4x ice weak", why doesn't similar arguments hold for the currently Uber Pokemon? That's the issue with the line of thought users like deluge, RaikouLover, and Ciaran are using, and while I think it's effective in giving another perspective to the current "GARCHOMP IS UBER BECAUSE IT DOES THIS", you need to establish why Garchomp isn't uber and everything else is still uber. This is the issue with the Garchomp is OU line of thought, and since it'll be completely uproductive and handwaving to try and prove Garchomp is OU in such a manner, I recommend you guys find a new line of attack, or clarify the arguments more (RL's entire post fails if you start applying the same concept to other ubers, for example, and all the other posts are completely handwavy)
I'm also going to emphasize statistics. Use them. Don't use them to say "SEE PEOPLE ARE USING HABAN BERRY? OVERCENTRALIZING AND SO IT'S BAD!", but honestly you need to explain to everyone better why this is bad and damaging to the metagame. This means you guys need to think about what you want in your metagame just a little more. Use it to support your opinion, because in the end, just remember that this entire suspect process is a result from the fact that there is no precise definition of a uber and this is why we're voting on it/discussing it.
What stops your arguments from being used against Rayquaza? What stops your arguments from being used against even slower sweepers? Why is it that these Pokemon are Uber and Garchomp isn't? This is the line that you guys need to establish, what makes Garchomp not uber not just because "he's too slow to sweep" or "he's not bulky enough" or "We can deal with him because he has a 4x ice weak", why doesn't similar arguments hold for the currently Uber Pokemon? That's the issue with the line of thought users like deluge, RaikouLover, and Ciaran are using, and while I think it's effective in giving another perspective to the current "GARCHOMP IS UBER BECAUSE IT DOES THIS", you need to establish why Garchomp isn't uber and everything else is still uber. This is the issue with the Garchomp is OU line of thought, and since it'll be completely uproductive and handwaving to try and prove Garchomp is OU in such a manner, I recommend you guys find a new line of attack, or clarify the arguments more (RL's entire post fails if you start applying the same concept to other ubers, for example, and all the other posts are completely handwavy)
I'm also going to emphasize statistics. Use them. Don't use them to say "SEE PEOPLE ARE USING HABAN BERRY? OVERCENTRALIZING AND SO IT'S BAD!", but honestly you need to explain to everyone better why this is bad and damaging to the metagame. This means you guys need to think about what you want in your metagame just a little more. Use it to support your opinion, because in the end, just remember that this entire suspect process is a result from the fact that there is no precise definition of a uber and this is why we're voting on it/discussing it.
I'm just going to state that while I did argue against the people going Chomp4UBAR I'm still on the fence with this guy. I just found that line of logic kind of painful to read.
YOHOHO.
EDIT: The last bullet point which I forgot to add, lol
Rayquaza has a number of things Garchomp doesn't in terms of consideration for Uber/OU:
- 150 in both attacking stats. allowing better special sweeping, mix sweeping, wallbreaking, and even physical sweeping than Garchomp
- 105/90/90 defenses are comparable to Garchomp's (weaker for physical, better for special)
- Extremespeed
- Dragon Dance or Swords Dance. You have the option and Dragon Dance compensates for Quaza's decidedly mediocre speed
- Air Lock prevents any residual damage from Sand or Hail from piling on with LO recoil, allowing the usage of Life Orb more reasonably than with all other non-steel/rock/ground/Cacturne sweepers/wallbreakers and prevents the usage of abilities dependent on the weather, like Sand Veil and Swift Swim
- Ice Beam
- Arguably better immunity for swapping in and better resists bar Rock
YOHOHO.
EDIT: The last bullet point which I forgot to add, lol
I think you see my point.
All you're doing is stating traits, and calling it uber based on these traits.
What if I said you could find ways to deal with them? What makes those traits uber and not Garchomps?
That line of argument is absolutely futile. You're not going to prove anything until you have established what makes those traits uber. You're not going to be able to, not without some solid theory (the question was rhetorical if you actually READ my post instead of hastily responding to it)
The point is that listing traits don't prove anything, which is exactly what you did, and you're telling us "this is too much", but telling others that their list of traits for Garchomp isn't too much. This is why your current "you big sissies just deal with it" isn't going to prove jack shit, because we can easily apply it to any other uber pokemon.
Draw the line. Argue the line, relative to the metagame. Don't give me handwaved bullshit based on "I know it's uber okay just trust me", I want a real, solid argument, which none of the "Garchomp is OU" posters have been able to give me. This is why I'm telling you guys to find a new line of attack.
EDIT: You guys really need to stop trying...
All you're doing is stating traits, and calling it uber based on these traits.
What if I said you could find ways to deal with them? What makes those traits uber and not Garchomps?
That line of argument is absolutely futile. You're not going to prove anything until you have established what makes those traits uber. You're not going to be able to, not without some solid theory (the question was rhetorical if you actually READ my post instead of hastily responding to it)
The point is that listing traits don't prove anything, which is exactly what you did, and you're telling us "this is too much", but telling others that their list of traits for Garchomp isn't too much. This is why your current "you big sissies just deal with it" isn't going to prove jack shit, because we can easily apply it to any other uber pokemon.
Draw the line. Argue the line, relative to the metagame. Don't give me handwaved bullshit based on "I know it's uber okay just trust me", I want a real, solid argument, which none of the "Garchomp is OU" posters have been able to give me. This is why I'm telling you guys to find a new line of attack.
EDIT: You guys really need to stop trying...
I guess I can start with Garchomp and Rayquaza. What makes Rayquaza Uber over Garchomp?
Rayquaza:
Raquaza has access to Dragon dance. With 1 turn of setup, Rayquaza is set for a sweep.
Fantastic offensive stats:
150/150 on both side of the spectrum. Not many pokemon and can take 1+ Life Orb Outrage from Rayquaza in OU.
For example:
985 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 321 - 378 (94.97% - 111.83%)
That's a OHKO outright with SR.
Garchomp's power CANNOT compare to that all. Garchomp runs the risk of being locked into ourage against Bronzong but Rayquaza doesn't fear that all.
788 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 198 - 233 (58.58% - 68.93%)
Using the 2+ Chomp.
If Chomp opts for the choice band set, he yields similar results
591 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 148 - 174 (43.79% - 51.48%)
His power is nowhere near as strong as Rayquaza.
788 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (
120 Base Power): 198 - 233 (58.58% - 68.93%)
Edit: CAL-Ciaran
Darn you posted before me.
Rayquaza:
Raquaza has access to Dragon dance. With 1 turn of setup, Rayquaza is set for a sweep.
Fantastic offensive stats:
150/150 on both side of the spectrum. Not many pokemon and can take 1+ Life Orb Outrage from Rayquaza in OU.
For example:
985 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 321 - 378 (94.97% - 111.83%)
That's a OHKO outright with SR.
Garchomp's power CANNOT compare to that all. Garchomp runs the risk of being locked into ourage against Bronzong but Rayquaza doesn't fear that all.
788 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 198 - 233 (58.58% - 68.93%)
Using the 2+ Chomp.
If Chomp opts for the choice band set, he yields similar results
591 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 148 - 174 (43.79% - 51.48%)
His power is nowhere near as strong as Rayquaza.
788 Atk vs 257 Def & 338 HP (
120 Base Power): 198 - 233 (58.58% - 68.93%)
Edit: CAL-Ciaran
Darn you posted before me.
I know it was rhetorical, but it was a severe stretch that I felt needed to be addressed, but it was just an example which was why I only went into that depth. It was an extremely bad comparison given the huge difference in power between Rayquaza and Garchomp. I don't think I required a long post for why Rayquaza should be UBER since that's not the point of the topic at all.
And, as I said in my post I'm not Garchomp for OU, I'm still on the fence about it, I just haven't felt anything compelling about the banishing of Garchomp to Uber posts. I think jusifying that is more necessary than justifying it for OU. The banning of something from the metagame orthe sustainment of the ban should be what requires justification, not what IS allowed in regular play since until it's decided UBER it's automatically allowed.
Garchomp for UBERs has to establish that Garchomp is too good for OU, Garchomp for OU simply has to find flaws in those arguments. You're trying to reverse the roles for some reason. :/
And, as I said in my post I'm not Garchomp for OU, I'm still on the fence about it, I just haven't felt anything compelling about the banishing of Garchomp to Uber posts. I think jusifying that is more necessary than justifying it for OU. The banning of something from the metagame orthe sustainment of the ban should be what requires justification, not what IS allowed in regular play since until it's decided UBER it's automatically allowed.
Garchomp for UBERs has to establish that Garchomp is too good for OU, Garchomp for OU simply has to find flaws in those arguments. You're trying to reverse the roles for some reason. :/
The reason I'm bringing this up is simple. You can apply such logic to every uber that exists. You can bring it down, and claim that it is OU, using the "you can find ways to deal with them" line of logic. The metagame will always centralize around the most powerful, and of course people will find ways of dealing with it. The garchomp for OU camp's arguments against Garchomp for Uber camp is simply "there are ways around it" (well, of course this is true), but fail to address anything past that. This is precisely why every uber debate drives itself into a circle: you are listing traits and arguing over them and saying "this is broken" "no it isn't" over and over again. Any statement you make, attempting to elaborate on what it does, without solid theory, (this means your post, Arc Tech), can be and will be countered, and it'll lead into a circle. That is the point I'm trying to nail down, and something everyone should remember should there be another iteration of the suspect test. Don't try to argue why Rayquaza might be uber or not(I'm going to delete the posts that do), I'm going to flat out say right now that line of attack is futile.
I've already hinted on how you should be addressing it. I recommend thinking a bit harder and seizing upon it, since the metagame effects in the end, are what matters.
I specifically stated that you shouldn't be posting it (the question was again, rhetorical, and I bolded the key point I wanted to make from it). Not sure why you chose not to read that part.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Statistics don't prove much of anything. Scizor has far more omnipresence than Garchomp every had. But myself, and I don't think anybody has attempted to argue Scizor should be Uber.
I thought the standard for Ubers was supposed to be on the Offensive, Defensive, and Support characteristics. Not the statistical usage surrounding them.
Good old Wobbuffet is of course banned to Ubers, but he wouldn't do much to the metagame by his existance in OU. He works 99% of the time sure. But how would he statistically affect the meta? You might see a heavier usage of mixed sweepers, some more sleep moves. Trick users and Taunt check him pretty well. U-Turn, maybe some more frequency of Toxic Spikes. But in general, he wouldn't really shake up the meta that much. He comes out, surprises a choice user and kills it. Then gets revenged kill. Whoooo, it's a trade for a trade. He's not incredibly hard to deal with, and easy to revenge kill.
Wobbuffet has a far less significant statistical impact than Garchomp on the meta as far as I can tell. And hell, both of them have less of a statistical impact than Scizor. Yet nobody is arguing that Wobbuffet shouldn't be Uber (or maybe there are, and I haven't noticed.
Ya know what I wonder? If people are subconsciously arguing so hard for Garchomp to be OU, because as an Uber he is the only "non-legendary" Uber (except Wobbuffet of course). And because he's non-legendary, people get this little thing in their minds that he couldn't possible be Uber.
Hello, I'm going to recommend you read the entire paragraph before you instantly jump into this argument.
Of course it's based on the Offense/Defense/Support Characteristics. But how do you argue that? Are you going to argue that Salamence is going to take damage from spikes and tspikes because of Gravity? You can't just say "statistics are useless" because they're not, they're just data. You can't ever argue data is useless. Learn to interpret data. it'll help you in the future.
PS: Garchomp usage was 33% at it's peak. Nice try, Sheshi
I have a question for the Pro-OU camp with regards to Chomp. Most of you seem to feel that he is on the border between OU and Uber so my question is how would you change him to make it Uber?
I don't believe Garchomp fulls under any of these characteristics, and that Garchomp is OU, based on experience and statistics.
The first thing to clear up, is that when you decide to compare Garchomp to other sweepers to decide if he is uber or not, you have to remember how diverse Garchomp's sets are according to the usage statistics. Choice Scarf was the most used item, with slightly over 1/3 of the suspect community using it as their item of choice. Haban Berry was used 1/5 of the time, and Yache and Salac Berry were used 1/8th of the time.
But why is it, that when we compare Garchomp to other sweepers, we can assume Garchomp could carry all of these items? Isn't it true that any other sweeper could carry items or different sets to sweep? Infernape is a fine example, and although it will usually use Life Orb (almost 38%), 11 different attacks placed over 10% in usage.
Why did I even bother telling you this? It is because any Pokemon can change its moveset and attacks, just like Garchomp does on a regular basis, to better accomodate a team, while simutaneously being able to take on new threats, at the expense of losing to old ones. U-Turn, an attack used 16% of the time on Infernape, allows Infernape to scout Starmie and Latias switch-ins while hitting them for a significant amount. From Garchomp's point of view, resistant berries are a perfectly viable way to handle one of these two, (not both however).
Garchomp can run plenty of viable sets, and it could be the best at all of them in his respective areas, but running new sets to combat Pokemon can leave him vulnerable to old threats, just like every other Pokemon. Let's also not forget how often Garchomp was used. 79% of the time, and this has plenty of reasons and effects on the metagame. Garchomp is being used so much because it is an excellent Pokemon and it is a Pokemon that is highly debated right now. Not to mention that using it will grant a user higher SEXP. This increased usage results in us remembering Garchomp more than other Pokemon who will run different sets to combat new threats, but this is not an entirely new strategy.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. Sub+Salac Berry Garchomp is a good Garchomp set, that plays a new role, on of luring in Latias or Starmie, and hoping to become faster and set up a sweep. But just like any other sweeper, Garchomp gains new weaknesses when attempting this. Skarmory and Bronzong will be able to handle anything Garchomp throws at them. Pokemon such as Magnet Rise Magnezone can now avoid Earthquake with some correct prediction or in a decent situation and won't have to worry about Fire-type attacks. Yes, Sand Veil is an excellent ability and can help make things go much easier for Garchomp, but by that same token, relying on it to bail you out as you substitute (with no healing) is playing russian roulette with one of your "prized sweepers".
Haban Berry Garchomp, usually decides to forgo Substitute and put Fire Fang or Fire Blast on instead. Yes, this makes it much easier to handle Bronzong and Skarmory (despite the fact that they can still Explode or Whirlwind Garchomp, as not only is +2 not a given, but also because Skarmory or Bronzong can ev themselves to survive these situations.). And without using Yache Berry or Substitute, Pokemon such as Mamoswine, Starmie, Weavile, or whatever other Ice-type attack you throw at Garchomp, will be able to handle, and potentially kill Chomp that much easier.
So yes, Garchomp can run different sets to combat different Pokemon. And factoring in all different sets and assuming you can get a Sand Veil miss, Garchomp may be able to handle every single Pokemon in OU. But so can every other sweeper, assuming they get their set-up, or their support, and whatever else Garchomp may have.
---
Now the real issue at hand; What can actually stop Garchomp? Well as I just pointed out, Garchomp has issues with different Pokemon depending on his set, not to mention some universal counters as well. What makes me somewhat angry is that more Pokemon aren't being tested or experimented to handle Garchomp. An example would be Suicune and Manaphy. Both of them have Reflect at their disposal, and it is never used on Suicune (and perhaps never used on Manaphy either). Suicune has Roar, a move only used 20% of the time. Both Pokemon can heal fairly effectively, and hit Garchomp with super-effective Ice Beams.
Onto more "unused checks and counters", Cresselia's Reflect is only used less than 1/3 of the time. Cresselia herself is only used 2.4% of the time. I know people will come in and say "But Cresselia can be easily set up on by Tyranitar or Scizor!". Well sure, but this is where playing smart and using a team correctly plays to your advantage. No Pokemon can handle threat, and while Cresselia does handle a large amount of them, Tyranitar and Scizor are not some of them. But add a Machamp, or a somewhat fast Tyranitar with Low Kick and Fire Blast. You could even turn those two Pokemon into somewhat "Chomp checks", by abusing Machamp's No Guard and investing into Defense, or by even using a Choice Scarf to outspeed Garchomp and use Dynamicpunch or Ice Punch.
This is why experimentation is so important in suspect, and why it should be documented. Have you played with something useful or something you thought could have potential but failed? Just post about it so we have a reference sake.
Onto more traditional methods of dealing with Garchomp, Life Orb and Choice Specs Latias can usually OHKO through Haban Berry with Draco Meteor. Latias can switch into Garchomp somewhat easily, although it must watch out for Dragon Claw or Outrage at any time. Is this unfair to you? My argument here is that Latias has those same problems when switching into Infernape, what if it U-Turns to a Scizor or a Tyranitar? What about Skarmory who decides to Brave Bird or Whirlwind, instead of using Spikes as you predicted? These are risks of Pokemon, otherwise the game wouldn't be the same. Scizor's Bullet Punch can 2HKO Garchomp, and puts Garchomp almost useless. Sure Scizor could miss thanks to Sand Veil. But what if, Scizor got a bad damage roll on Salamence that allowed Salamence to come out on top? I have seen this happen before. Do we just give up? The answer is no, we build to play around these situations, which happen all the time, but are so much more prolific with Garchomp.
Celebi can Perish Song and throw up Reflect on Garchomp, and invested in Defense could force Garchomp out, if it can't ko before you Perish Song. Mamoswine, Starmie, and Weavile can all kill you with Ice Shard or Ice Beam if you aren't using Yache Berry. If you are, this leaves you open to a Scarf Salamence, an opposing Garchomp, or even other Latias.
Garchomp is an excellent Pokemon. Will never deny that. But to suggest that Garchomp can not be handled is ridiculous. Garchomp may be an extraordinary sweeper, but other Pokemon can still handle Garchomp, just as they can handle other sweepers such as Lucario and Infernape, and most of the time, it all depends on the moveset.
---
I hope people feel that what I had to say was valid and hopefully not a waste of time. These are just my feelings on the matter though.
The first thing to clear up, is that when you decide to compare Garchomp to other sweepers to decide if he is uber or not, you have to remember how diverse Garchomp's sets are according to the usage statistics. Choice Scarf was the most used item, with slightly over 1/3 of the suspect community using it as their item of choice. Haban Berry was used 1/5 of the time, and Yache and Salac Berry were used 1/8th of the time.
But why is it, that when we compare Garchomp to other sweepers, we can assume Garchomp could carry all of these items? Isn't it true that any other sweeper could carry items or different sets to sweep? Infernape is a fine example, and although it will usually use Life Orb (almost 38%), 11 different attacks placed over 10% in usage.
Why did I even bother telling you this? It is because any Pokemon can change its moveset and attacks, just like Garchomp does on a regular basis, to better accomodate a team, while simutaneously being able to take on new threats, at the expense of losing to old ones. U-Turn, an attack used 16% of the time on Infernape, allows Infernape to scout Starmie and Latias switch-ins while hitting them for a significant amount. From Garchomp's point of view, resistant berries are a perfectly viable way to handle one of these two, (not both however).
Garchomp can run plenty of viable sets, and it could be the best at all of them in his respective areas, but running new sets to combat Pokemon can leave him vulnerable to old threats, just like every other Pokemon. Let's also not forget how often Garchomp was used. 79% of the time, and this has plenty of reasons and effects on the metagame. Garchomp is being used so much because it is an excellent Pokemon and it is a Pokemon that is highly debated right now. Not to mention that using it will grant a user higher SEXP. This increased usage results in us remembering Garchomp more than other Pokemon who will run different sets to combat new threats, but this is not an entirely new strategy.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. Sub+Salac Berry Garchomp is a good Garchomp set, that plays a new role, on of luring in Latias or Starmie, and hoping to become faster and set up a sweep. But just like any other sweeper, Garchomp gains new weaknesses when attempting this. Skarmory and Bronzong will be able to handle anything Garchomp throws at them. Pokemon such as Magnet Rise Magnezone can now avoid Earthquake with some correct prediction or in a decent situation and won't have to worry about Fire-type attacks. Yes, Sand Veil is an excellent ability and can help make things go much easier for Garchomp, but by that same token, relying on it to bail you out as you substitute (with no healing) is playing russian roulette with one of your "prized sweepers".
Haban Berry Garchomp, usually decides to forgo Substitute and put Fire Fang or Fire Blast on instead. Yes, this makes it much easier to handle Bronzong and Skarmory (despite the fact that they can still Explode or Whirlwind Garchomp, as not only is +2 not a given, but also because Skarmory or Bronzong can ev themselves to survive these situations.). And without using Yache Berry or Substitute, Pokemon such as Mamoswine, Starmie, Weavile, or whatever other Ice-type attack you throw at Garchomp, will be able to handle, and potentially kill Chomp that much easier.
So yes, Garchomp can run different sets to combat different Pokemon. And factoring in all different sets and assuming you can get a Sand Veil miss, Garchomp may be able to handle every single Pokemon in OU. But so can every other sweeper, assuming they get their set-up, or their support, and whatever else Garchomp may have.
---
Now the real issue at hand; What can actually stop Garchomp? Well as I just pointed out, Garchomp has issues with different Pokemon depending on his set, not to mention some universal counters as well. What makes me somewhat angry is that more Pokemon aren't being tested or experimented to handle Garchomp. An example would be Suicune and Manaphy. Both of them have Reflect at their disposal, and it is never used on Suicune (and perhaps never used on Manaphy either). Suicune has Roar, a move only used 20% of the time. Both Pokemon can heal fairly effectively, and hit Garchomp with super-effective Ice Beams.
Onto more "unused checks and counters", Cresselia's Reflect is only used less than 1/3 of the time. Cresselia herself is only used 2.4% of the time. I know people will come in and say "But Cresselia can be easily set up on by Tyranitar or Scizor!". Well sure, but this is where playing smart and using a team correctly plays to your advantage. No Pokemon can handle threat, and while Cresselia does handle a large amount of them, Tyranitar and Scizor are not some of them. But add a Machamp, or a somewhat fast Tyranitar with Low Kick and Fire Blast. You could even turn those two Pokemon into somewhat "Chomp checks", by abusing Machamp's No Guard and investing into Defense, or by even using a Choice Scarf to outspeed Garchomp and use Dynamicpunch or Ice Punch.
This is why experimentation is so important in suspect, and why it should be documented. Have you played with something useful or something you thought could have potential but failed? Just post about it so we have a reference sake.
Onto more traditional methods of dealing with Garchomp, Life Orb and Choice Specs Latias can usually OHKO through Haban Berry with Draco Meteor. Latias can switch into Garchomp somewhat easily, although it must watch out for Dragon Claw or Outrage at any time. Is this unfair to you? My argument here is that Latias has those same problems when switching into Infernape, what if it U-Turns to a Scizor or a Tyranitar? What about Skarmory who decides to Brave Bird or Whirlwind, instead of using Spikes as you predicted? These are risks of Pokemon, otherwise the game wouldn't be the same. Scizor's Bullet Punch can 2HKO Garchomp, and puts Garchomp almost useless. Sure Scizor could miss thanks to Sand Veil. But what if, Scizor got a bad damage roll on Salamence that allowed Salamence to come out on top? I have seen this happen before. Do we just give up? The answer is no, we build to play around these situations, which happen all the time, but are so much more prolific with Garchomp.
Celebi can Perish Song and throw up Reflect on Garchomp, and invested in Defense could force Garchomp out, if it can't ko before you Perish Song. Mamoswine, Starmie, and Weavile can all kill you with Ice Shard or Ice Beam if you aren't using Yache Berry. If you are, this leaves you open to a Scarf Salamence, an opposing Garchomp, or even other Latias.
Garchomp is an excellent Pokemon. Will never deny that. But to suggest that Garchomp can not be handled is ridiculous. Garchomp may be an extraordinary sweeper, but other Pokemon can still handle Garchomp, just as they can handle other sweepers such as Lucario and Infernape, and most of the time, it all depends on the moveset.
---
I hope people feel that what I had to say was valid and hopefully not a waste of time. These are just my feelings on the matter though.
I would give Garchomp better stats and a larger movepool. The majority of ubers have huge move pools and/or ridiculously inflated stats. If Garchomp had 10-15 added to all of its base stats I would qualify it as uber. Also, if Garchomp had a much larger move pool, enough to make it very unpredictable, I would qualify it as uber.
*I'm not saying that good stats and move pool make a Pokemon uber.
Dragon Dance. I feel that the biggest thing setting Garchomp down is his inability to boost speed. Unlike other Dragon Dancers, Garchomp has the combination of bulk, coverage, and power to beat down opponents with much more ease.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2317985&postcount=635
^has been revamped, in response to Tangerine wanting more analysis.
This is a response to tang's call for more theory. I think the last 2 posts by ARD and FC are a good place to start here: garchomp might very well be uber if it had a bit more in each stat, a larger move pool, a strong priority, or dragon dance. These attributes would certainly make him resemble the other uber pokemon. If this is the case, the question to answer is why?
The answer, I think is that garchomp would then be in a much better position to be an amazing early game sweeper in ou. Here I want to take back what I said earlier and take "the Plant's" criticism of my first post, there are no great early game sweepers currently in ou. There are excellent offensive threats that can do tons of damage in the early game, but these are not quite sweepers. Garchomp, in my experience, is not one of these threats. If chomp tries for an early game sweep, it will fall to any number of chomp-countering strategies. If chomp was a better mixed sweeper, if it could boost its speed, if it was bulkier, if it had any of these attributes, then it would be able to come in early game and wreak havok. As it stands, all i have to do is put up reflect or switch in pokes that chomp can't come in on unscathed or keep my chomp-check healthy until late game, etc. and I will not get swept by chomp until the mid to late game, when my opponent has carefully eliminated my chomp checks by outplaying me.
If a pokemon has a to wait until the mid to late game to sweep it is not uber based on the offensive characteristic.
Here's another way of looking at things that might be wrong and which I'll begin with this caveat: I do not think everyone should be forced to use reflect on there team to deal with chomp. I also do not think that you need to use reflect to deal with chomp. That said, any pokemon that basically can't sweep while either reflect OR (note: not AND but OR, just 1 of the two) lightscreen are up is not uber under the offensive characteristic. No berry-dance Garchomp set I've seen can sweep a team with reflect up unless that team is very poorly designed or it is the very late game. Other uber pokemon who are uber based on the offensive characteristic can do this. Why? Because they have higher stats and better movepools (and even better abilities!)
The answer, I think is that garchomp would then be in a much better position to be an amazing early game sweeper in ou. Here I want to take back what I said earlier and take "the Plant's" criticism of my first post, there are no great early game sweepers currently in ou. There are excellent offensive threats that can do tons of damage in the early game, but these are not quite sweepers. Garchomp, in my experience, is not one of these threats. If chomp tries for an early game sweep, it will fall to any number of chomp-countering strategies. If chomp was a better mixed sweeper, if it could boost its speed, if it was bulkier, if it had any of these attributes, then it would be able to come in early game and wreak havok. As it stands, all i have to do is put up reflect or switch in pokes that chomp can't come in on unscathed or keep my chomp-check healthy until late game, etc. and I will not get swept by chomp until the mid to late game, when my opponent has carefully eliminated my chomp checks by outplaying me.
If a pokemon has a to wait until the mid to late game to sweep it is not uber based on the offensive characteristic.
Here's another way of looking at things that might be wrong and which I'll begin with this caveat: I do not think everyone should be forced to use reflect on there team to deal with chomp. I also do not think that you need to use reflect to deal with chomp. That said, any pokemon that basically can't sweep while either reflect OR (note: not AND but OR, just 1 of the two) lightscreen are up is not uber under the offensive characteristic. No berry-dance Garchomp set I've seen can sweep a team with reflect up unless that team is very poorly designed or it is the very late game. Other uber pokemon who are uber based on the offensive characteristic can do this. Why? Because they have higher stats and better movepools (and even better abilities!)