Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[_Flygon_]

i didnt see one good battler say that sand veil is the most important reason, it is a factor but it isn't even an that important one

 

[Karilyn]

Why is everyone assuming Garchomp's Sand Veil auto activates?

Earlier in the thread, there was several pages of math which concluded that Sand Veil allowed Garchomp in an average fight to have the following happen...

1/3rd of the time, dodge no attacks
1/3rd of the time, dodge one attack
1/3rd of the time, dodge two or more attacks

Give or take one percent.

In addition to that, like I said, if Sand Veil is the defining characteristic for Garchomp's "Uberness," why have we not tested Gliscor/Cacturne?

Less bulk, less offense. It's not Sand Veil, or RNG defenses in general that is broken. It's RNG Defenses on top of what would without it, be the most powerful bulky sweeper in OU.

Does Shadow Tag make Wobbuffet Uber? Yes, 100% absolutely. But it does not make Wobbuffet Uber by itself. It's the combination of Shadow Tag, with it's moveset, and enough HP to survive an OHKO from nearly everything in the game, and EVERY physical or special attacker (admittedly not at the same time) depending on it's nature.

The combination of Stats, with a movepool to back it up, and THEN it's Ability, is what makes Garchomp broken.

Why haven't we tested Tyranitar himself, the means of all the sandstorm?

Because there is nothing inherently broken about sandstorm... and there is nothing broken about sand veil on an otherwise weaker Pokemon.

 

[boredomisbliss]

Earlier in the thread, there was several pages of math which concluded that Sand Veil allowed Garchomp in an average fight to have the following happen...

1/3rd of the time, dodge no attacks
1/3rd of the time, dodge one attack
1/3rd of the time, dodge two or more
Give or take one percent. attacks

These calculations were over five turns, assuming leftovers recovery and no stealth rock. (pfft) sub sets either have no setup or are walled by skarmory and bronzong, and thus are easy to counter. on the other hand, non-sub sets only have 1 or two turns, in which case missing its against the odds.


Less bulk, less offense. It's not Sand Veil, or RNG defenses in general that is broken. It's RNG Defenses on top of what would without it, be the most powerful bulky sweeper in OU.

Does Shadow Tag make Wobbuffet Uber? Yes, 100% absolutely. But it does not make Wobbuffet Uber by itself. It's the combination of Shadow Tag, with it's moveset, and enough HP to survive an OHKO from nearly everything in the game, and EVERY physical or special attacker (admittedly not at the same time) depending on it's nature.

ya except wobba works 99.9% of the time, unless theres another wobba involved. sand veil works 20% of 40% of the time.

The combination of Stats, with a movepool to back it up, and THEN it's Ability, is what makes Garchomp broken.

i dont see how this makes garchomp broken


Because there is nothing inherently broken about sandstorm... and there is nothing broken about sand veil on an otherwise weaker Pokemon.

 

[BaldWombat]

I'm getting annoyed with Skarm, Zong, and Latias being called Chomp counters. The definition of a counter is something that can switch into any of a pokemon's moves and immediately threaten back. Skarm and Zong can switch in but don't really threaten back, Zong can explode though. Latias can't switch in for fear of Outrage/Dragon Claw. All of these pokemon check Chomp as they have the capability of dealing with Chomp 1 on 1 most of the time but they have a hard time switching in which prevents them from being counters.

 

[ARandomDude]

Editting in process...

First and foremost, this post is meant to present facts and strong logic to let you make your own opinions.
Now, logically, for Garchomp to be Uber, he basically has to exceed the threshhold of handleable in OU. For the purposes of this post, I will assume that no current OU is reasonably close to the threshhold. Thus, if Garchomp is not significantly better than every OU sweeper, then the best he can do is toe the line. So the question is:
Does Garchomp really outclass every OU sweeper by a significant amount? If so, then he is Uber. If not, he is OU.
For the purposes of objectivity, I refrained from incorporating my own opinions, but it was later suggested that I should. If you don't care for my opinion and want to make your own conclusions, don't press the "Show" buttons.
I will also compare Garchomp to two Uber sweepers whom I feel somewhat match up to Garchomp-ish, and are clearly Uber: Rayquaza, for the obvious Dragon sweeper whatever, and Deoxys-A, because I feel many of the Garchomp-OU comments can be rebutted with the example of Deoxys-A. Keep in mind I am not an Ubers expert, so if you have something to add, please tell me.

1. A look at Garchomp's ability to sweep
What does Garchomp have? (repeat of the last 26 pages)
1. His ability to 1-2HKO everything in OU
2. His impeccable offensive STAB typing
3. SR resist
4. Ability to sweep with any number of items/attack combinations
5. Well placed speed
6. Lasting power due to Sand Veil and 108/95/85 defenses
7. Doesn't need Life Orb to shred
What's wrong with Garchomp?
1. No resist to Spikes/Toxic Spikes
2. Inability to boost speed outside of the unreliable Salac Berry
3. No priority
4. Weaker mixed attacking stats
5. Fewer resistances than his dragon counterparts- Garchomp trades resistance to Surf, Grass Knot, and Earthquake for resistance to Thunder Wave/Thunderbolt and Stealth Rock.
6. Lack of priority/speed boosting makes stuff like Latias, Infernape, and Starmie able to revenge kill.
Opinion:

Hide

Garchomp, in the realm of the OU metagame, will be a beast and a major player. His massive attacking stats, solid defenses, and attacking combination present a monster of large proportions. However, one must look deeper to see his flaws:
Garchomp, despite his resistance to SR, does not have the plethora of predicted moves he can switch on, relative to his cousins Latias and Salamence. He does not resist, and rather takes a sizable amount from Earthquake, Surf, and Grass Knot/Leaf Storm. If he cannot come in too reliably, then he must come in and revenge kill or something, right? Well, in the current Suspect metagame, as well as if Garchomp goes OU, teams will always be prepared. HabanLatias, ShucaChi, ShucaGross, etc. Garchomp, simply due to the fact that he is such a huge beast, cannot sweep easily in the face of the large amount of Pokemon on teams ready to block his sweep. Garchomp can always be revenge killed, just as he must revenge kill. If you try and clear all the stuff out of the way, Garchomp cannot sweep just on a whim.
The true effect of Garchomp is the fact that he will centralize the metagame. Haban Latias? ShucaChi? These make sweeps for Garchomp's subordinates much easier, sweepers like Lucario, Infernape, etc, who have priority/more speed. In preparing for Garchomp, we prepare for other things less. If Garchomp can suck away preparedness to stop a sweep from something else, Garchomp helps the support clause.
Garchomp has large attacking potential, but can still be stopped. His defenses are solid, but not superb. Garchomp can help others sweep. However, none of these characteristics, as stand, make him Uber.

2. A look at how Garchomp compares to the biggest sweepers in OU: Scizor, Gyarados, Latias, Salamence, Lucario, Infernape.
King Steel vs King Dragon
Garchomp vs Scizor
How does Garchomp compare to Scizor in terms of ability to sweep? Looking at Scizor:
Why can Scizor sweep?
1. Many key resistances- Steel, Grass, Ice, Dragon, Dark, Ghost, etc. etc., and from this, the ability to switch in
2. Priority
3. Access to recovery
Why can't Scizor sweep?
1. He has many tried-and-true counters/switchins (Gyarados, Rotom, Zapdos, Skarmory, etc)
2. His most used set, Choice Band, lacks a sweeping move outside of Bullet Punch, which is resisted by half of OU
3. His Swords Dance set lacks power, coverage, and/or recovery
4. Loses 1/8 of HP on switching in to SR
5. Can get trapped by Magnezone
Does Garchomp outclass Scizor?

Hide

Garchomp does outclass Scizor as a sweeper, due to his coverage. Garchomp has the ability to blow through anything he wants, given the right tools, something Scizor cannot boast. Two checks to Scizor suffice, while two hardly check Garchomp

Does Garchomp outclass Scizor significantly?

Hide

No. Scizor's support role compared to Garchomp cannot be overlooked. Scizor's U-Turn does a better job of dealing with stall than Garchomp ever could, and is rediculously useful in general. His resistance to Toxic Spikes, as well as access to Roost helps his staying power when compared to Garchomp if Toxic Spikes are out.
Strictly speaking, Scizor is not counterable, because no Pokemon can switch in to threaten while Scizor can U-Turn to a check with a free switchin.

Garchomp vs Gyarados
Why can Gyarados sweep?
1. Good resistances (Steel, Fighting)
2. Ability to switch into a large variety of Pokemon
3. Ability to boost speed
4. Waterfall flinchhax
5. Intimidate
Why can't Gyarados sweep?
1. Tried and true counters/switchins: Rotom, Bulky Starmie, Celebi, bulky waters, etc.
2. SR weakness means he rarely gets a chance to try a sweep more than twice (although Leftovers are more popular now, mitigating this somewhat)
3. Inability to hit like a truck, due to Water's lack of key super effective hits
4. Gyarados either lacks power or bulk (for example, Lucario's +1 CC shockingly has a chance OHKO 0/0 Gyarados after SR)
Does Garchomp outclass Gyarados?

Hide

Yes, I think we all agree that Garchomp is better than Gyarados. (Below for why)

Does Garchomp significantly outlcass Gyarados?

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I would lean toward yes. Garchomp's least favorite entry hazard is slightly easier to clear and used less than Gyarado's least favorite entry hazard. A Gyarados sweep is much harder to pull than a Garchomp sweep. Garchomp has access to a 100 and a 120 base power move, while Gyarados is stuck with an 80 base power move. In addition, Waterfall+EQ/SE/IF hardly get the coverage that EQ+Dragon Move+Fire move get. Gyarados is pretty easy to wall.

Garchomp vs Latias
Suspect vs Suspect
Why can Latias sweep?
1. Good defenses, stellar special defense
2. Decent coverage moves
3. Speed
4. Resistances: Fighting, Fire, Water, Electric, etc.
Why can't Latias sweep?
1. Can't go physical at all, so only few sets can beat Blissey
2. Easy to take out early, via TTar
Does Garchomp outclass Latias?

Hide

Yes, Garchomp outclasses Latias as a sweeper, since Garchomp can at least beat Skarmory. Latias, as long as the fat nurse exists, will have loads of trouble pulling off a sweep. Her two methods of beating Blissey, TrickScarf or CMRefresh, both seriously hamper Latias' ability to sweep through other stuff, either through lack of recovery or lack of coverage.

Does Garchomp significantly outclass Latias?

Hide

As a sweeper, yes. Overall, no. Latias will find it much harder to pull off a sweep than Garchomp, due to lack of raw power. However, Latias has a large support movepool which should not be overlooked- Reflect, Wish, etc. Latias' key role is not as a full sweeper as Garchomp is, but as a support Pokemon who can pseudosweep.

Garchomp vs Salamence
The big question, oh boy.
Why can Salamence sweep?
We all know this, so i just ripped this straight from the analysis:

Salamence is arguably one of the biggest threats in DPP since it can hit very hard from both ends of the damage spectrum without needing to set up. There is literally no one counter to Salamence until you know its moveset, and even then it can be a challenge to take. Its versatility makes it a fantastic early-, mid- and late-game Pokémon as well, which is not something you can say about a lot of Pokémon. If you use it wisely, Salamence should win you a lot of battles. However, it's not without its faults. You will have to account for both Stealth Rock and sandstream since non-Leftovers Salamence will take a minimum 25% (Stealth Rock) + 6.25% (Sand Stream) + 6.25% (Sand Stream) = 37.5% damage every time it switches in and attacks, and this is assuming it is untouched by your opponent's Pokémon. More often than not, residual damage will be Salamence's worst enemy.

Speed boosting, mixed attacking, recovery, blah blah blah.
Why can't Salamence sweep?
1. Stealth Rock
2. Suffers tons of residual damage trying to match Garchomp
Does Garchomp outclass Salamence as a sweeper?

Hide

Only slightly. Garchomp and Salamence excel at sweeping different things- Garchomp, with his swords dance, rips apart slower, bulkier Pokemon, while Salamence with his speed boosting, takes on faster, more fragile threats. Salamence does get hampered by the inability to just run nonchalantly when something he doesn't like comes in.

Does Garchomp significantly outclass Salamence?

Hide

No. (See above)

Garchomp vs Lucario
Why can Lucario sweep?
1. Killer stallbreaking abilities/coverage
2. SR+TS resist
3. Resistances, including to sandstorm, due to steel typing
4. Doesn't get flinchhaxed
5. Priority
6. Ability to go mixed/special
Why can't Lucario sweep?
1. Lucario has to change his moveset to deal with counters like Zapdos, Gliscor, and Gyarados
2. Close Combat defense drops suck
3. With those defenses, resisted hits may just as well be neutral
4. Needs Life Orb to get key KOs
5. "Sub-par" speed
Does Garchomp outclass Lucario?

Hide

Somewhat. Lucario's raw power is hardly as threatening when he takes 10% damage and a defensive stage drop to launch his most powerful attack. The 90 base speed means that stuff can revenge kill somewhat easily-they just have to take an Extremespeed.

Does Garchomp significantly outclass Lucario?

Hide

No. Despite Lucario's paper defenses, his upsides are too good to fully overlook. Priority means that Pokemon such as Infernape, Azelf, Latias, and Starmie will not be stopping Infernape unless they are pretty healthy. Lucario, like Garchomp, OHKOs or 2HKOs pretty much the whole metagame with ease.

Garchomp vs Infernape
Why can Infernape sweep?
1. High speed means only fragile stuff can revenge kill
2. Steel (BP) resist
3. Great stall-breaking ability
4. Access to recovery (LOL)
5. Great movepool, mixed/physical/special
6. Access to priority, although weak
Why can't Infernape sweep?
1. Has to resort to less common movesets (aka Uturn) to beat switchins like Starmie and Latias)
2. Needs Life Orb to get KOs
3. Does not resist any form of residual damage
4. Paper defenses
5. Only above average attacking stats
Does Garchomp outclass Infernape?

Hide

Slightly. Infernape does in fact beat Garchomp, as well as many other things. Infernape can kill stuff as well as Garchomp, but his adversity to residual damage hurts like a bitch.

Does Garchomp significantly outclass Infernape?

Hide

No. Infernape comfortably runs mixed sets, physical sets, special sets, etc, and can scare people almost as much as Garchomp can when he comes. "Do I go to Salamence to take the Fire/Fighting move even though he may be mixed with HP Ice? Do I go to Latias/Starmie and hope he isn't physical with U-Turn". Et cetera.

3. A look at how Garchomp compares to "comparable" Uber sweepers: Rayquaza and Deoxys-A
Garchomp vs Rayquaza
Why can Rayquaza sweep?
1. 150 attack in both stats
2. Priority
3. Ability to Dragon Dance or Swords Dance
4. 105/80/80 defenses are hardly piss-poor
5. Air Lock
6. Handy resists to come in on- Ground, Water, Grass
Why can't Rayquaza sweep?
1. 95 base speed means Extremespeed is gonna get used a lot more than Rayquaza would like
2. SR weakness
Does Rayquaza outclass Garchomp as a sweeper?

Hide

Yes. (See below)

Does Rayquaza significantly outclass Garchomp as a sweeper?

Hide

Probably yes. Rayquaza has 20 more base Attack and a whopping 70 more base Special attack. Mixed sets work much better on Rayquaza and ChainChomp. +2Extremespeeds or +1Dragon Claws hurt Starmie and the like plenty.

Garchomp Deoxys-A
First of all, if you are wondering why Deoxys-A is here:
Some Garchomp-OU comments I have seen include: Dies to Scizor's Bullet Punch, OHKO-2HKO everything doesnt mean Uber, counterable with sets we already have, etc. However, these traits are 10 times more prominent in Deoxys-A than Garchomp.
Why can Deoxys-A sweep?
1. 180 base attacks, 150 base speed, priority, pretty good movepool, WE ALL KNOW THIS
Why can't Deoxys-A sweep?
2. Extremespeed resisting Pokemon with priority- Lucario, Metagross, Scizor, etc. Scizor and Metagross get bonuses in that they can Pursuit too.
3. Can't switch in for jack.
Does Deoxys-A outclass Garchomp as a sweeper?
Does Deoxys-A significantly outclass Garchomp as a sweeper?
Ok I really need your opinion on these, Ubers experts.



4. Conclusion

Hide

Garchomp is better than any other sweeper currently in OU, due to a combination of defenses, coverage, raw power, and dificulty to take out with only residual damage. However, Garchomp is not significantly better than many of these sweepers. Garchomp wishes he had priorty. Garchomp wishes he had 120+ speed. Garchomp wishes he didn't have separately resistable moves and a x4 weakness. Although harder to check, it is doable. Garchomp, obviously toes the line between OU and Uber, but all things considered, he is a very high OU, it would appear.

 

[lordkira]

Bravo to ARandomDude

 

[Mikey229]

Bravo to ARandomDude

Seconded. I like his view on it. Makes me smile that someone isn't crying about Chomp being the biggest threat to Pokemon.

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Ultimifier

Please next time don't be a hypocrite. I dont know what exactly is the most powerful physical attack in ou as that means absofuckinglutely nothing. Rhyperior, Aggron, Salamence, even relicanth have stronger attacks than lucario.

Let's disect this post even more. You state that a +1 Salamence outdamages garchomp... cool. He will also have 59% left of his health after one attack while garchomp will have 94%. I'd rather have a pokemon that has 94% of his health rather than a pokemon who has 59% of his health and has a measly 0.3% more attack with one less stab attack to use *This all assumes SR, Sandstorm, and jolly natures, with a LO attacked to salamence*

So im neutral in this respect as i dont even play OU much, but some of these arguments are just retarded and hypocritical. And on the topic of RaikouLover implying Lucario is around as good as garchomp, ARE YOU SERIOUS? Take a look at the top 5 in usage and come back to me.

Wow,

1) Clearly you misinterpreted the damage calculations and didn't get what I was talking about. Rhyperior has a higher base attack, but doesn't commonly run Swords Dance and a Life Orb with a 120 Base Power STAB Attack. So no, it doesn't outdamage Lucario. Salamence lacks a +2 Booster, as does Aggron and Relicanth.. so no, NONE OF THE OUTDAMAGE LUCARIO. Check your facts.

2) The 2nd bold was an irrelevant rant by you that means nothing. And the point I was making in comparison with Salamence to Chomp is that Salamence runs Positive Nature and a Life Orb which outdamages chomp's Swords Dance Outrage. Chomp is Jolly, Salamence doesn't have to be because it can boost Speed! How is that hypocritical????

3) When in any of my posts did I say Lucario was as good as Garchomp? I merely stated the fact that Lucario's main move Close Combat outdages Garchomp's Outrage because it does! Lucario runs Adamant and 350 Attack, Chomp is Jolly and has 359 Attack. But since Lucario commonly runs a Life Orb, which boosts its attack by 30%, and Chomp is too busy running Yache / Haban, and Close Combat and Outrage are both 120 Base Power + STAB, Lucario OUTDAMAGES Garchomp. That was all I was trying to prove. I see nothing hypocritical about that statement. People in this thread are too blind to see number calculations for what they really are. Because Even at +2, Garchomp is more powerful and Uber than a +6 OU Pokemon [/sarcasm]!

 

[MegaBuddha]

Popping in to say I greatly dislike ARandomDude's view on it. There's no reason to compare it to all of those pokemon and expect it to mean anything.

Garchomp is broken. Not because of one thing, but because it has everything. It is what would be the best sweeper aimed for OU, but that's why it's too strongs. It is designed to be perfect between it's Atk and STAB, allowing to 1-2HKO everything in the game, with a nice 102 speed. Not only that, but it has a nice tanky amount of bulk, typing that allows for key resistances and little residual damage. It can go on and on. But Garchomp is just a monster. I'm not saying I can't play around it and that it beats me everytime, but it is too strongs.

 

[MetaNite]

I like ARandomDude's overall view, but would disagree on the smaller aspects such as Garchomp not significantly outclassing Salamence.

It is so much easier for Garchomp to get a Swords Dance than it is for Salamence to get a Dragon Dance. Why? Garchomp has an immunity to an extremely common move type, Electric. Thunderbolt is the 2nd most common move in OU, as proven by X-Act's wonderful stats. That is a lot of chances to come in. The immunity to Thunder Wave is amazing, giving Garchomp loads of chances to common in on Pokemon Salamence wouldn't dream of, such as Celebi and Blissey, as well as Jolteon. Although Garchomp may not be quite as devastating as Salamence, the simplicity of getting up that first Swords Dance cannot be ignored.

Garchomp really has the best of all the worlds, Swords Dance, convienant base Speed, and useful immunities/resistances accompanied by perfectly usable defenses. (Hell, his Defense is better than Swamperts). RaikouLover is correct in saying Lucario is often the more powerful sweeper, but power alone will not be killing Pokemon. Garchomp being so bulky and holding a Yache/haban berry allows it to take a hit or two and strike back, while Lucario, in most cases, must OHKO the foe or die next turn. For instance, against a Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Garchomp can comfortably 2HKO, not fearing Earthquake very much at all. This same situation applies with say Suicune, Lucario dieing to Surf between the defense drop and Life orb damage, while Garchomp surviving another turn due to Yache Berry. In the long run, Lucario will not be outdamaging Garchomp. This conclusion can be reached by simply putting your damage calculations into the context of a game where there are many more factors than just raw attack power. That is not to say Garchomp outclasses Lucario by any means, just that Garchomp actually does more damage.

 

[_Flygon_]

1. A look at how Garchomp's ability to sweep
What does Garchomp have? (repeat of the last 26 pages)
1. His ability to 1-2HKO everything in OU
2. His impeccable offensive STAB typing
3. SR resist
4. Ability to sweep with any number of items/attack combinations
5. Well placed speed
6. Sand Veil
7. Not much can switch in safely
nitpick: same as 1.
8. Doesn't need Life Orb to shred

you forgt one of the biggest reasons of it's success: it's bulk. higher defenses than swampert allow it to take a priority move and effectively revenge kill lucario among others.
What's wrong with Garchomp?
1. No resist to Spikes/Toxic Spikes
2. Inability to boost speed outside of the unreliable Salac Berry
3. No priority
4. Weaker mixed attacking stats
5. Lesser ability to switch into attacks
those two points are compared to? salamence? garchomps higher bulk allows it an way easyer switch-in than mence has against most opponents.
6. Slight case of 4-Move Syndrome when trying to pull off a major sweep
not true, sd ff dc eq is all you need to sweep a huge part of the opponents team.
7. Easy to revenge kill
debatable, 102 base speed outspeeds much of the metagame and anything else below absolutely needs a choice scarf and an ice/dragon move or a ridicously powerful stab in order to ill it

at your comparisons:
you just can't compare many of them. i find it harder to revenge lucario because of priority, also garchomp and latias are just way to different, does garchomp have this immunity to hazards, this speed and this special bulk?

i'm absolutely agreeing with logann

 

[Astrith01]

- Solid speed, 102 eliminates a few would-be speed ties
honestly, who does care about 333 speed? its like saying infernapes weirdo 108 speed makes such a difference, and making starmie timid over like, modest

There is a difference between 108 Base Speed and 102 Base Speed.

108 doesn't make much of a difference, there aren't any Pokemon I believe that are 105 Base Speed that are huge threats.

102 makes a huge difference, guarantees you go before non-scarfed base 100's which are very dangerous through out the OU tier, the most noticeable, Celebi, Jirachi, and Salamence


Also, referring to his bulk you say:

DEFENSIVE
- Very bulky, 108HP/95Def/85SpD
which is still significantly less bulky than stuff like swampert, due to garchomps focus on being bulky?

Garchomp has better overall defenses than Swampert, just had to clear that.

 

[haunter]

Although I basically agree with your post MetaNite, the elctric immunity part isn't exactly correct. People may argue that Salamence is immune to ground moves, and earthquake is still the most used move on both standard and suspect ladder.

What really makes Garchomp a better overall sweeper than Salamence is its typing, which gives it 2 magnificent STABs - with almost unresisted coverage - and SR resistance, and also it's impressive HP and physical defence (for a sweeper) which allows it to take some hits and makes it extremely hard to revenge kill. Sand veil hax is just a bonus which, sometimes, allows it to beat even some sure checks like Latias.

 

[Deucalion2]

Popping in to say I greatly dislike ARandomDude's view on it. There's no reason to compare it to all of those pokemon and expect it to mean anything.

Garchomp is broken. Not because of one thing, but because it has everything. It is what would be the best sweeper aimed for OU, but that's why it's too strongs. It is designed to be perfect between it's Atk and STAB, allowing to 1-2HKO everything in the game, with a nice 102 speed. Not only that, but it has a nice tanky amount of bulk, typing that allows for key resistances and little residual damage. It can go on and on. But Garchomp is just a monster. I'm not saying I can't play around it and that it beats me everytime, but it is too strongs.

The number of posts like this pisses me off immensely. Instead of actually reading ARandomDude's post and actually responding clearly to his (extremely well-made) arguments, all you've done is repeat a bunch of points made pages back, most of which have now been shown to be irrelevant. What did this add to the conversation? Have you said anything that hasn't been said before? What was the point in this post?

I'm sorry if this comes off a tad brutal, but ARandomDude made an extremely good post, and you are attempting to brush it off by repeating a previous argument, which is the fallacy of argumentam ad nauseam (the fallacy of repetition). Rather than see 13872 more of these posts (and I know there will be, because the vast majority of the anti-Garchomp posters seem to have formulated their opinions in about 10 seconds and simply parrot what the few intelligent anti-Garchomp posters like Haunter have said), I'd like to see some posts with a little thought put into them.

[/rant]

ARandomDude, I'd just like to congratulate you for an extremely well-written post. It said what I was thinking much better than I could have said it. I don't really have anything else to add that would be relevant to that post, but I do feel that Skarmory acts as a hard counter to Garchomp if Toxic Spikes are up. I run a lead Roserade and Roost Skarmory, and I have no problem with Garchomp - if Skarmory switches in on any move aside from Fire Fang, it takes very little damage, and forces the now poisoned Garchomp out, leaving me free to set up a layer of Spikes. If it switches in on a Fire Fang, that still isn't a problem, as I can Roost off the slight damage, and Whirlwind, and all the time the Garchomp is taking fairly potent residual damage at 12.5%. Even without Toxic Spikes, Skarmory still works as a soft counter - it may not be able to do anything to Garchomp directly, but it forces Garchomp to switch out, and Garchomp can't switch in for free - if my opponent reveals their Garchomp, I cease from using any non-damaging moves, so Garchomp will have to take some pain when it switches in, and then is forced to switch out again.


EDIT:

Also, can people PLEASE stop saying Garchomp is more bulky than Swampert. Garchomp COULD be more bulky than Swampert, but Swampert actualls runs bulky EVs and a defensive nature. In contrast, I have only seen two defensively built Garchomps in my entire time on the ladder, and the average EVs from the month's stats show Garchomp goes defensive once in a blue moon. On a theoretical basis Garchomp is bulkier than Swampert, but in reality, a Swampert will be bulkier. Saying "oh garchomp takes hits better than swampert" is blatantly untrue, and doesn't help your argument at all. He CAN, but he doesn't.

 

[ARandomDude]

In response to Flygon, my overly long post was not to compare who uses Dragon Claw/Outrage+Earthquake+Fire Move+Stat Up move better. The point was to look at whether Garchomps sweeps are significantly easier to pull off, easier to maintain, AND more deadly. I felt that, if the sweeps did not meet those characteristics, and I do not think they were met, then Garchomp was not decidedly Uber.

 

[MegaBuddha]

Because you Garchomp advocaters insist on comparing every little aspect of garchomp to another pokemon, thinking that proves ANYTHING. Salamence is the onlyy pokemon even close enough to compare to fucking Garchomp. Seriously look at his post and tell me how that's going to make me think any less of Garchomp. Seriously Infernape and Garchomp is oranges to apples.

I've been playing pokemon likely a lot longer than you. I supported OU Garchomp in the past. But not anymore. It is broken. This whole entire fucking thread is full of people saying the same bullshit over and over, lol. It all comes down to what Garchomp is and whether you're willing to accept it or not. I'm telling you what he is, and why he over the time I've been playing since the DAY Pearl has came out has come to make me realize this.

You guys can compare Garchomp to Scizor and Infernape [lol], and tell me how Skarmory is a HARD counter... As long as Roserade sets up Toxic Spikes first... [...] And as long as it doesn't come in on the wrong move.. [...] all you want.

RaikouLover, and other people have given the stats and the reasons why Garchomp is a fucking monster. Theres nothing else to discuss.

That's why I've stayed out of this conversation. Just gotta wait till it's voting time. I wish I participated more in the last few weeks to make sure I can vote. Busy, you know. I'll try to rack up SExp in the next few days if I can.

Because that's all you can do, is vote. This argument means nothing and non of you are likely to change your mind, anyway.

 

[RaikouLover]

MetaNite's post:

For instance, against a Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Garchomp can comfortably 2HKO, not fearing Earthquake very much at all. This same situation applies with say Suicune, Lucario dieing to Surf between the defense drop and Life orb damage, while Garchomp surviving another turn due to Yache Berry. In the long run, Lucario will not be outdamaging Garchomp. This conclusion can be reached by simply putting your damage calculations into the context of a game where there are many more factors than just raw attack power. That is not to say Garchomp outclasses Lucario by any means, just that Garchomp actually does more damage.

I disagree with this actually. Having used Lucario and Garchomp extensively, I actually think Lucario is the better pure sweeper. Once your single Luke counter is gone, good luck revenge killing it thanks to extremespeed, where as Garchomp you can at least find one last faster pokemon to pick it off. Lucario nets more total sweeps than Garchomp, though we can all agree Luke is overall still a less useful pokemon.

But really? Who cares if Chomp can 2HKO Hippo, Skarm, Bronzong, Cune, etc. Luke with a single layer of Spikes and SR OHKOs ALL of them... ALL of them, and can pick off Azelf, Infernape, Jolteon, etc. who normally would be revenge killing Garchomp with Extremespeed.

And Logann, I respect your stance on the matter even if I don't agree Garchomp is Uber. I was on hiatus and wish I could vote :(

 

[Karilyn]

3. Conclusion
Garchomp is better than any other sweeper currently in OU, due to a combination of defenses, coverage, raw power, and dificulty to take out with only residual damage. However, Garchomp is not significantly better than many of these sweepers. Although harder to check, it is doable. Garchomp, obviously toes the line between OU and Uber, but all things considered, he is a very high OU, it would appear.

I agreed with everything up until your conclusion, which I respectfully disagree with.

Down the whole list, you basically said "Garchomp is better than every similar sweeper, though on some it is only slightly better; and Scizor is not comparable because it plays very different." And yet... what other sweeper can boast that it is better than every other sweeper in nearly every situation? Remove Garchomp from the picture, and if you made a little grid, like ye olde type chart, comparing all of them with each other... You'd find that each of them is sometimes better in some common situations, and sometimes worse in some common situations.

Garchomp is basically better "all of the time" (for a relative definition of "all"). Unless the metagame is attempting running 3+ Garchomp checks on most teams, you are pretty much always better off for finding a place for it. And even with 3+ checks on a team, you are often STILL better off putting Garchomp on your team. It's so strong, it's pretty much a no-brainer, unless it simply heavily conflicts with your team strategy.

...

Ya say it's Very High OU, but I would argue, what is Uber, other than Pokemon that are too high to be OU? How "Very High" does Garchomp have to be, in order to be is too high? With being nearly universally superior to every OU sweeper, and in addition, having a 20% I-Win-Button (Isn't that why OHKO moves were banned?)... I'd say it goes way too "Very High OU" to still be OU.

 

[Zach]

Posting to remind posters that Garchomp isn't the only suspect

Here's my real input:

Manaphy is incredible.

@ Leftovers
Modest
252 HP / 80 SpAtk / 176 Spe
-Substitute
-Tail Glow
-Surf
-Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric

I've been using this on my stall team. As well as providing a needed MixApe check, Manaphy allows me not to be weak against opposing stall teams. 252 HP EVs are just enough to give me 404 HP, the magic 101 HP substitue number. This allows manaphy's Subs to survive Seismic Tosses from Blissey. 176 Spe outspeeds base 90s (Lucario, Roserade). 80 SpA and Modest allows me to beat Calm Blissey more easily and makes manaphy more powerful in general. Gyarados takes a lot of damage from a +2 Ice Beam. etc.

 

[ultimifier]

I disagree with this actually. Having used Lucario and Garchomp extensively, I actually think Lucario is the better pure sweeper. Once your single Luke counter is gone, good luck revenge killing it thanks to extremespeed, where as Garchomp you can at least find one last faster pokemon to pick it off. Lucario nets more total sweeps than Garchomp, though we can all agree Luke is overall still a less useful pokemon.

But really? Who cares if Chomp can 2HKO Hippo, Skarm, Bronzong, Cune, etc. Luke with a single layer of Spikes and SR OHKOs ALL of them... ALL of them, and can pick off Azelf, Infernape, Jolteon, etc. who normally would be revenge killing Garchomp with Extremespeed.

And Logann, I respect your stance on the matter even if I don't agree Garchomp is Uber. I was on hiatus and wish I could vote :(

I know people say opinions can't be wrong. You just proved that false.

Look at 5 of the top 6 pokemon. Scizor, Gyarados, Latias, Rotom-h, Salamence. THEY ARE ALL CHECKS TO LUCARIO. A team with 2 or more of these will very rarely get swept by lucario. A team with scarf rotom CANNOT lose to lucario. Hell, a team with fucking gengar alive cant even lose to lucario.
Lucario is far worse that garchomp. This is not my opinion, IT IS FACT

and about the last thing. you said lucario has the most powerful attack in OU, not that it outdamages everyone else. i also stated that you were implying lucario was as good as garchomp. I never said that you 'said that' although you did in this one. and DD sala pretty much all run +speed. so your calcs meant nothing.

 

[Bribery]

I know people say opinions can't be wrong. You just proved that false. I'm gonna say what i did in my last post that you clearly didn't read (or read and couldn't think of a comeback).

Look at 5 of the top 6 pokemon. Scizor, Gyarados, Latias, Rotom-h, Salamence. THEY ARE ALL CHECKS TO LUCARIO. A team with 2 or more of these will very rarely get swept by lucario. A team with scarf rotom CANNOT lose to lucario. Hell, a team with fucking gengar alive cant even lose to lucario.
Lucario is far worse that garchomp. This is not my opinion, IT IS FACT

Close Combat OHKOs Scizor, Stone Edge OHKOs Gyarados even after Indimidate, Latias has a good chance to be OHKO'd by ExtremeSpeed after Stealth Rock. Out of these, only ScarfRotom and Salamence are guaranteed counters, and Salamence will usually die from ExtremeSpeed+Life Orb recoil anyways.


Lucario is harder to revenge kill than Garchomp if you don't count Sand Veil since only Ghost types and ScarfHeatran/Jirachi are safe from ExtremeSpeed. That certainly doesn't make Lucario uber though. I'm still on the fence with Garchomp. There are times where it has been a letdown for me and my opponent, and there are times that I've been completely swept by it. To be honest, I wouldn't mind Garchomp in OU provided that Latias stays OU as well.

 

[orkid]

hi all, i've been floating around smogon for awhile now, but this is my first post. i wanted to chime in abt garchomp.

chomp's uberness considered via the uber (offensive) characteristic, where a poke is uber if it can sweep through the majority of teams w/little to no effort. ok, can chomp do this? I think that in a healthy ou metagame, the answer is no. This would make chomp not uber.

before getting to the chomp's berry-dance sets, I want to argue that chomp cannot be uber based on her (I've always thought of chomp as a lady) scarf set. This is because the scarf set doesn't have the power/versatility to sweep a healthy team, it can basically get all your ko's in a match, but only as a revenge killer. Revenge killing, in my opinion, is not sweeping simply because what's done the actual sweeping is the poke that softened up whatever chomp's revenging. This is true even when scarfchomp is doing 50%+ because if the first poke hadn't softened up the opposing poke, scarfchomp would not have been able to take it out. Even in unlikely cases where scarfchomp is the only poke making kos, none of them would have happened w/o a (presumably well made) team around her as well as a team that can handle pokes coming in on scarfchomp's earthquake/dragon attacks and setting up.

There are basically 2 different ways for berry-dance chomp to sweep, you come in, press swords dance, then 1-2hko the whole world, or you come in, use a damage dealing move, scout the opposing team, and usually switch out on the next turn from whatever they've sent in as a response (note I'm not saying 'counter,' as tang's post awhile back said, there are many difficult to counter pokes who are not uber and ubers who have ou (even uu) counters (damn ludiculo). The argument saying that you can switch chomp in and out often and w/o consequences to chomp seems to me to be wrong because I can just as easily switch in and out whatever poke I have on my team that revenge kills chomp, a good player can keep her chomp check safe until your chomp is out. In addition, there are many ways for any kind of well made team to punish switches, from entry hazards to powerful moves to setting up. This is not to say that chomp can't switch in multiple times, since that quality is partly what makes scarfchomp so good against not tspikes/spikes using teams. It is to say that if you are planning on sweeping with a berry-dance chomp, you cannot switch it in and out w/o giving your opponent free turns as you switch. A well made opposing team can take advantage of these switches. This is because before chomp has sd'd it is unable to make the 2hkos it needs and so can be countered if it stays in.

What about once you've SDed? Well, in order for chomp to sweep a team after an sd, the player using berry-dance chomp must have gotten rid of:
-toxic spikes and pokemon who learn protect/sub
-reflect if the opponent has put it up
-faster scarfers and priority users that can revenge chomp
-adverse weather conditions (anything but sand) that make pokes faster than chomp or help with stalling and blizzard's accuracy
-any poke that can switch in after chomp has made a kill, take a SD-boosted hit from chomp and revenge it
-skarmory and bronzong

Now you can say that some or all of the above is true for certain pokes we think of as uber. Yes. But there are two things to think about here:
1. The OU metagame (in my opinion) can be made of teams that ALL use one or more of the chomp-countering strategies above without being over-centralized. Every team has to have weather, entry hazards/phazers/protect users, scarfers/priority users, bulky attackers/set up attackers that berry-chomp can't come in on once they've set up. There seem to me to be many creative ways to design teams that all do at least one of these things.

2. Chomp is not a very good early game sweeper. This is important because the best argument for chomp's uberness (I think) is that she can come in and out doing damage w/o taking much residual damage herself while being very difficult if not impossible to safely switch into unless you have skarm/zong on your team. This argument is, I think, the best argument for chomp's uberness since it could potentially lead to chomp falling under the offensive uber characteristic. I'd be very interested in someone who thinks chomp is uber taking this argument up and backing it w/math. Basically I think the way to prove chomp uber is to show the the player facing garchomp is basically paralyzed into sacrificing a poke everytime chomp comes in for fear of it taking out his chomp-check. I do not think, however, that that this is the case. If you find yourself in a situation where chomp is constantly taking out a poke every time she come in, I think you are not designing your team correctly to deal with chomp. Given ARandomDude's post a page or so back, I also think that chomp, like the other great OU sweepers, can be dealt with in a variety of ways.

Before ending this long post I just want to say that 'dealing with chomp,' like dealing with many other threats, doesn't mean having a chomp counter, it means having a team concept that takes chomp into account. Chomp, like many of the best ou sweepers and the best ou stallers, doesn't have a true counter. This doesn't mean though, that it is uber because despite this it is still unable to sweep through a prepared team, of which there are many different possible versions.

Just one last thing, in case someone says that there are no good early game sweepers in ou. there are indeed several very good early game sweepers, or at least pokes that can do tons of damage to multiple pokes in the early game. these pokemon are what we usually call 'wall breakers'; they tend to be mixed attackers who do not use set-up moves. Finally, in a sense, all trick users can be thought of a great early game sweepers, since tricking a scarf onto most non-choiced pokes that switch into the usual trick users is pretty much taking it out of commission for the game.

 

[The Plant]

2. Chomp is not a very good early game sweeper.

Chomp, like many of the best ou sweepers and the best ou stallers, doesn't have a true counter. .

A) There is not a single good early game sweeper in ou, except possibly chomp, if there was this wouldn't be a very fun game.

B) Thats not true, every other sweeper has a counter. Also every other sweeper is easier to revenge kill then chomp.

Also my extremely too long don't read thoughts on garchomp -

The traditional way for a sweeper to set up is to come in on something they can force out and set up on the switch. Sure the opponent could stay in and try to “play around” the sweeper but this means the defending team is doing something it probally doesn’t want to. Every sweeper can be switched into safely except garchomp. This might be exceptable if he were hard to set up (like say lucario) but he can force out huge numbers of pokemon. He is also a very good defensive addition to a team, is valuable at low hp due to his great speed, and beats tons of pokemon one on one. He resists stealth rock. His best check is himself but beyond that is is latias who is pursuitable by the number 1 pokemin in the game. He also has sandveil a broken ability that damages the game on such a great user. This is on top of being the best weeper by far.

The following is an attempt to determine based on three criteria who is the best sweeper in ou. We accept that the suspect metgame is somewhat artificial so I am going to show how well the top 5 sweepers (in my opinion) fair at sweeping the top 25 pokemon in that metagame. I will then show how well garchomp does against those same pokemon. The three metrics are how many pokemon they can force out, the number of pokemon they beat after one turn of set up, and some safe ways to not be sweep (revenge killers and dedicated counters, this is not an exhaustitative list unlike the others). Note garchomp is far better at defense so it would be expected he do worse then somebody like infernape with paper defenses.

Note in cases where it is unclear the pokemon does not score (i.e garchomp is safe if rotom does not have wow but this will not score)

This all assumes no sand-storm and both leads set up rocks-

Garchomp (SD Yachechomp)
Forces out: 13 Scizor, Heatran, Metagross, Tyranitar, infernape, lucario, jirachi, gengar, Flygon, zapdos, dragonite, Magnezone, celebi

Ko’s: 20 ( Scizor, Gyarados, Rotom, Heatran, Salamence, Metagross, Tyranitar, Infernape, Lucario, Jirachi, Swampert, Blissey, Starmie, Azelf, Machamp, Vaporean, Celebi, Magnezone, Zapdos Dragonite, (note that’s everybody in the top 10 except Latias) (note most gliscor go down as well, many of these pokes can hit garchomp and break the yache berry however that means garchomp has killed a major check to himself and usually is at 40-55%, nothing is stopping him from switching out, on the top 10 7 are cleanly outsped and ko’ed)

Defensive measures: Haban latias, nobody else come is on every move. Most revenge killers can’t beat him through the berry so it takes a combo of them to take him down. Skarm is a very good first switch as is bronzing. Latias is an excellent check and doesn’t even need a scarf.

Barbiri-Berry Tyranitar
Forces out: 8 Scizor, Latias, Heatran, Starmie, Azelf, Vaporean, Magnezone, Zapdos

Ko’s: 18 Scizor, Latias, Gyarados, Rotom, Heatran, Salamence, Metagross, Infernape, Lucario, Gengar, Blissey, Starmie, Azelf, Vaporean, Magnezone, Celebi, Zapdos, Dragonite.

Counters: Machamp, Swampert, Gliscor. Revenged killed by Scarf jirachi, Flygon and gengar. Skarmory roars it out.

Its gretest issue is that its forced to run the berry to protect itself from gengar. Still not as good as chomp and much less valuable at low hp due to lesser speed. Most importantly it has three good solid counters in the top 25 wear as chomp basically has zero.

Lucario

Forces out: 3 Heatran, Tyranitar, Blissey, (kinda vaporean, machamp, and scizor but its crippled by vaporean and holding a Lo and the other two need prior damage)

Ko’s: 16 Scizor, Latias, Rotom, Heatran, Metagross, Tyranitar, Infernape, Swampert, Blissey, Starmie, Azelf, Machamp, Vaporean, Skarmory, Celebi, Dragonite.

Defensive Measure. Countered hard by gliscor and defensive Salamence. Also loses to Gyarados and regular salamence and zapdos. Gengar is a huge promblem since it needs to crunch on the switch to beat it. Scarf Magnezone traps and kills it while scarf Rachi beats it pretty well.

Overall a very good pokemon but extremely annoying to set up since it loses to or ties with everyone. Its best value is stall finds it extremely annoying to counter and gives it loas of set up. Most of its kills are clean as well. Very good against entry hazards.

Gyarados LO

Forces out: 7 Scizor, Heatran, infernape, Lucario, Jirachi, Swampert, Gliscor, – note many are very useful.

Ko’s: 16 Scizor, gyarados, Latias, Heatran, Salamence, Tyranitr, Infernpe, Lucario, Gengar, Swammpert, Starmie, Azelf, Gliscor, Machamp, Zapdos, dragonite – note almost all are clean, beats everybody in the top 10 save rotom.

Counter measures: Has huge trouble getting through celebi and vaporean. Rotom (scarf or otherwise) beats it as does jirachi/latias; he can’t ko either any on the switch. Flygon and gengar revenge. Metagross can take a waterfall and ohko back.

Great pokemon. However he is very short lived with Lo + sr and only needs to be checked once. He has solid counters. Lefties versions don’t get as many kills but are obviously more useful defensively.

Salamence Lo

Forces out: 11 Heatran, infernape, Lucario, Metagross (kinda), Gliscor, Vaporean, Magnezone, Skarmory, Celebi, Zapdos, Dragonite

Ko’s: 21 Latias, Rotom, Gyados, Heatran, Salamence, Gyarados, Metagross, Infernape, Lucario, Jirachi, Gengar, Blissey, Starmie, Azelf, Gliscor, Machamp, Vaporean, Celebi, Zapdos, Dragonite, Magnezone

Counters: Salamence needs Lo and outrage to get those kills and therefore cannot switch out. He is easily revenged by scizors bullet punch though otherwise he is fairly hard to handle. Swampert is a decent counter but nearly suicides to do it. Offensively he is the strongest pokemon in ou and about its unclear who is better he or garchomp. However he can be stalled out of outrage, forced to accept being revenge killed and is weak to stelth rock. ‘defensively he is nowhere near as good and because of outrage and lo is easier to play around offensively.

Infernape Nasty Plot

Forces out: 12 Scizor, Rotom, Heatran, Metagross, Tyranitar, Lucario, Jirachi, Swampert, Blissey, Magnezone, Skarmory, Celebi,

Ko’s: 17 Scizor, Gyarados (maybe), Rotom, Heatran, Salamence, Metagross, Tyranitar, Lucario, Jirachi, swampert, Blissey Gliscor, Machamp, Magnezone, Skarmory, Celebi, Dragonite (watch out vs extremespeed)

Counter measures: Latias is a hard counter, as is vaporean. Starmie, Gengar, azelf can out speed and ko. Any priority really hurts, as do most scarfers. Lo rcoil takes a toll, great pokemon on offense.

So all told he is probally the best sweeper in ou albeit not by much. However he is also much bulkier then 4 of his competitors (2 are stealth rock weak with life orbs and the other two have abysmal defenses). He is by far the hardest to find a genuinely safe switch in against. He is the second fastest and beats the most pokemon one on one. He is by far the best pokemon to have on the defensive (a great lucario and tyranitar check in addition to many others. He is by far the hardest to revenge kill (only scarf/haban chomp and latias do it reliably wear as many many scarfers check the other five. He happens to have a tremendously broken ability. He is not outclassed by any other offensive pokemon in any attribute and is among the best pokemon at every role. He is simply too good to be allowed in ou.

note - i wrote this very fast sorry if there are mistakes.

 

[orkid]

I disagree with some of your line of reasoning, Plant. here's my perspective:

in response to B: every other sweeper doesn't have a counter: here is a list of ou pokes that do not have a counter according to the smogon analysis (i am not taking choiced pokes into account here, since many can 'only' be countered w/prediction)
-breloom
-jirachi
-infernape
-lucario (gliscor cannot switch in on icepunch/hpice)
-machamp (unless you count spiritomb)
-salamence
many of these are uncounterable because of versatility and so suffer from move-slot syndrome. yes, chomp doesn't have this problem, its problem is that unlike many wall breakers, it needs to sd-up inorder to break walls. that is what i meant by saying it is a bad early game sweeper.

many of the pokes you listed claiming yachechomp forces out are not really safe switch-ins for chomp unless you know the move they're using, which you can't unless they're choiced and you've scouted. that seems to me to indicate that yache chomp is not that easy to set up. why would I switch my chomp into lucario just to take a ton of damage from close combat, let alone an hp-ice/icepunch? Scizor is not a safe switch in since u-turn will let my opponent switch in his chomp-check, Heatran isn't safe unless I know the set, otherwise I might get ko'd by a subtran's explosion, or by a scarftran's dragonpulse/hpic, metagross isn't safe unless I know its not using icepunch and even then meteormash does tons of damage, Tyranitar can also hit me wth an icebeam and if it's dd'ed up then it will outspeed and do a good amount of damage with crunch, leaving me very vulnerable. infernape is the same as lucario but worse because it outspeeds, jirachi has a reasonabe chance of paralyzing me with bodyslam, surviving an earthquake with a shuca berry, and then flinching me to death, gengar, flygon and zapdos all have attacks that do SE damage and gengar and flygon both frequently run sets that outspeed yachechomp, dragonite seems like a terrible switch in unless you know it isn't about to use dragon claw, celebi cannot be 2hkoed by chomp until after an sd, and can take chomp out with leafstorm, I could be wrong, but I think even magnezone is a bad switch-in unless its scarfed and not using hpice, since a sub-rise set behind a sub will always beat chomp. i magnet rise as you break the sub using earthquake, then your firefangs proceed to do:

359 Atk vs 266 Def & 324 HP (65 Base Power): 126 - 150 (38.89% - 46.30%)

which means i get to hp ice you twice once leftovers is taken into account, I think (I could be wrong on this)

 

[The Plant]

forces out means beats one on one in my analysis, so if it come in after a kill (without the other guy being boosted) or a double switch it takes the advantage.

All those pokes don't have counters because they can run multiple sets (those most of those still have counters). SD Yachechomp has 4 moves and no counters. (Except haban latias).

Also suspect is ridiculous. I am running Haban Latias and i ran into another haban latias when both draco meteored. This is a terrible metagame.