Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[deluge]

Except the difference is that if I switch my Swampert into Salamence while it DD's, I can actually OHKO it next turn with Ice Beam. I can't do that to Garchomp (well I suppose I can crit but even then its a moot point as if its running Yache I still cannot). Even 0 SpAtk Swampert has a 15% chance of OHKOing Salamence (obviously with SR/LO/SS makes this even higher). That's the difference, that to get the power that Garchomp has at +2, Salamence has to further decrease its already lacking longevity.

Well, you would have essentially traded Swampert since it will not be much use in the case that it survives to deliver the killing blow (esp. with SR).
I am pretty sure one can come out not much worse off against Garchomp once the Yache is gone.
But yes, I'll agree that Garchomp's bulk is what really sets it apart from Salamence but it still dies to right attack and more things can deliver that without being burdened with Scarf.

I should have clarified that, my bad. Either way though, I think the point that Salamence doesn't have to worry about Skarmory is a good one (although it worries slightly more about Bronzong, if any pokemon can actually do that... and a bit of emphasis on slightly)

Yup, standard Sassy one can hold its own against Fire Blast (3HKO, I think).
But if it switches in on DDMence or SDChomp's buff, it can survive to Explode against either one as +2 Fire Fang generally 2HKOs Sassy Zong.

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

That's not what the damage calcs I ran say, unless I'm thoroughly mistaken:

394Atk Garchomp (Adamant with 252 EVs) at +2 Outrage versus 252HP/252Def Relaxed Swampert = 89.11% avg damage, 58.97% chance to OHKO with SR

400Atk Salamence (Naughty with 232 EVs) and +1 LO Outrage versus 252HP/252Def Relaxed Swampert = 87.87% avg damage = 53.85% chance to OHKO with SR

Those damage calcs are all but correct, except for the fact that Swampert is part ground and resists stealth rock. Therefore it is a:

20.51% chance to OHKO with Stealth rock from Adamant Chomp
7.69% chance to OHKO with Stealth rock from Naughty Salamence
(From Libelldra)

Therefore Swampert does survive 20.51% of the time if the Garchomp or Salamence is a max attack variant (positive nature'd). Considering this information, I think it's pretty pertinent that Garchomp survives Swampert's Ice beam whereas Salamence doesn't (after SR). Just wanted to keep the discussion clean.

 

[deluge]

I don't see the Skarmory example TOO appealing to the discussion of Garchomp's tier standing when Skarmory can't really do anything to the either pokemons (whirlwind yes but nothing else).

Well, you can switch Skarmory into just about any Garchomp set to scout since you'll generally survive any attack and a +2 Fire Fang if you face Swords Dance and decide to stay and Whirlwind.
It can be useful when you are not sure which Garchomp you're facing and need a good initial switch in that will frustrate some sets quite well (SubSD STAB sets are lol) and doesn't lose right away to any.

 

[The Plant]

But thats not a fair comparison.

LO Garchomp v LO Salamence is fair and in that case one ohko's swampert and the other probally does not. If its LO salamence v yache chomp then one comfortable 2hko's and the other fails to ohko and is ko'd back. Hence both LO and Yache-chomp beat swampert switching in wear as salamence does not.

The above calcs are only true for haban chomp versus lo salamence.

 

[deluge]

Those damage calcs are all but correct, except for the fact that Swampert is part ground and resists stealth rock. Therefore it is a:

20.51% chance to OHKO with Stealth rock from Adamant Chomp
7.69% chance to OHKO with Stealth rock from Naughty Salamence
(From Libelldra)

Therefore Swampert does survive 20.51% of the time if the Garchomp or Salamence is a max attack variant (positive nature'd). Considering this information, I think it's pretty pertinent that Garchomp survives Swampert's Ice beam whereas Salamence doesn't (after SR). Just wanted to keep the discussion clean.

Thanks for correcting the SR portion, I did forget to change that.

I should make it clear that I was responding to the assertion that the damage output between Salamence and Garchomp is vastly different which is clearly not the case!
Garchomp's extra bulk was not disputed and was acknowledged as the trade-off for Sala's greater sweeping speed.

My intention is to keep the discussion clean and focused as well.
If a few percentage points of survival chance (Swampert versus Outrage) is the difference between Uber and OU, so be it.
It seems unlikely that someone who has not already been outplayed will fail, on average, to deal with a Garchomp that has lost it's Yache and is not at full health.

 

[deluge]

But thats not a fair comparison.

LO Garchomp v LO Salamence is fair and in that case one ohko's swampert and the other probally does not. If its LO salamence v yache chomp then one comfortable 2hko's and the other fails to ohko and is ko'd back. Hence both LO and Yache-chomp beat swampert switching in wear as salamence does not.

The above calcs are only true for haban chomp versus lo salamence.

I knew someone would say this!
I'm comparing sets as they are frequently used not matching items.

Salamence's speed after a DD is what makes LO the favored item while Garchomp likes a breather against faster Ice Beams.
When people start putting more LO on Garchomp (as a standard) instead of Yache/Haban we can talk about the implications.

 

[scorchedsky]

I don't really understand how this thread has turned into a Salamence v. Garchomp discussion. Salamence isn't a suspect, dropped to 6th in usage, etc etc

Deciding whether or not Garchomp sweeps significant portions of the metagame with little support doesn't matter whether or not Salamence does it better. The only relevance would be discussion of Salamence as a check to Garchomp.

That being said, I've been really underwhelmed in general with just about every Chomp set aside from Scarf. Scarfchomp is even more "team-glue" than Scizor or Heatran, he fits in really well and cleans up the mess. Sub-SD is kinda lol, but when it's stopped cold by Skarm and Bronzong it's really just not worth it (and TSpikes kinda ruin you with it).

I've been using a Rain team centered around Crophy (do people still call it this?), and the more I use it the more Uber it feels (the team also has a Scarfchomp). However, against popular opinion I get the feeling that Manaphy just might be broken. Manaphy is bulky as all hell with great typing, and Crophy just sets up on just about anything if you're clever. Tyranitar isn't even a problem, +1 0 SPatk Manaphy 2HKO's just about every Ttar trying to switch in and ruin your Rain. It's especially lol if you see the switch coming and RD, giving you at least another CM. When Ttar is gone (which is usually pretty early game, as people really try to use it to stop rain), Manaphy is almost untouchable. Latias only manages ~33% with Tbolt after a CM, so you can just CM in its face basically. It beats Bliss 1-on-1 which is nice, as +6 Rain surf does ~60%. Vaporeon walls it, but that's about it.

 

[nyczxjay]

I've faced scorchedsky a number of times and I have to agree with Crophy's Uberness. Once TTar/Hippowdon is gone, it's very difficult to near impossible to take down unless you're smart and Trick a Choice item onto it, which can easily be avoided if the user knows how to use Crophy.

 

[PK Gaming]

Oh give me a break.. what about RestTalk Dragon Dance Gyarados? No one mentions it yet on Suspect (yeah I'm revealing my team) I run a Gyarados with Impish and 223 Speed. I Dragon Dance while Outrage locks in chomp and fails to kill me (or he can Dragon Claw for less damage). Then I just waterfall.. and +1 Waterfall is a 2HKO with a chance of Flinch omg a 20% counter!!!!! But seriously, Defensive Gyarados gives chomp a run for its money.. all you need is something faster on your team to revenge Chomp if it loses (hell, at that point, Bullet Punch from Scizor is a KO). Seriously, why don't you guys TRY to counter it before labeling it "uncounterable" :-/

Hehe nice set.

 

[Karilyn]

I've read through this whole thread, from beginning to end. Yes, my sanity has probably been damaged slightly by this act. But I found the entire topic fairly interesting.

I am solidly in the "Uber Garchomp" camp, simply because it has so much going for it. I think a lot of people who try to argue that it should be OU, are trying to only focus on one or two aspects of Garchomp. When everything he has going for it is put together, Defensive, Offensive, and the Support it gives the rest of your team, it seems overwhelmingly Uber.

Let me attempt to bullet point everything that Garchomp has going for it... Some bullets get repeated, because they fall under more than one categories.

OFFENSIVE
- Astronomical Attack stat... 130
- Great STAB, one of, if not the best offensive type combination possible.
- Solid speed, 102 eliminates a few would-be speed ties

DEFENSIVE
- Very bulky, 108HP/95Def/85SpD
- Strong defensive typing, better than most other similar sweepers
- Resists Stealth Rock
- Immune to Thunder Wave
- In addition to all the above, Sand Veil adds huge RNG to benefit his defenses beyond already being strong.
- 1/3rd no misses, 1/3rd one miss, 1/3rd two or more misses.
- No Counters
- No reliable checks due to the significant difference between choice, yache, powder, and sub Garchomps, combined with Sand Veil for all varieties of Garchomp.
- Solid speed, 102 eliminates a few would-be speed ties.

SUPPORT
- Due to Sand Veil Hax, it can unreliably be killed without a large number of opposing checks to threaten it, which may allow others in your team to sweep the overloaded Garchomp checks.
- Often requires the sacrifice of a disproportionately large number of a opposing team in order to kill Garchomp.
- Stealth Rock resistance allows Garchomp to switch out fairly easily.
- The best way to kill an opponent's Garchomp, is with your own Garchomp.

...

SUMMARY
Garchomp has the most powerful OU offense, backed by strong defense, good speed, great typing, and requires minimal support. And all this is combined with a powerful RNG defense; Unlike other heavy RNG Pokemon, Garchomp no weakpoint in in either offense, defense, speed, or typing.

That pretty much fits under the Uber classification IMO. It's easy to pick at any individual aspect and say "Oh, he's not really uber," but when you put everything together, no other OU Pokemon has even remotely close to as much going for it as Garchomp does. Maybe it doesn't quite qualify under the offensive category, maybe it doesn't quite qualify under the defensive category; but when you take both the offense, and the defense, and the RNG together, it easily is Uber.

Garchomp would be borderline Uber, and probably still Uber without it's ability. With it's ability, it is catapulted into Uber, as no pokemon that is offensively and defensively powerful as Garchomp should have such a strong RNG. Garchomp is broken.

Did I miss anything? Is there any reason why Garchomp should not be Uber based on that list?

 

[lordkira]

I've read through this whole thread, from beginning to end. Yes, my sanity has probably been damaged slightly by this act. But I found the entire topic fairly interesting.

I am solidly in the "Uber Garchomp" camp, simply because it has so much going for it. I think a lot of people who try to argue that it should be OU, are trying to only focus on one or two aspects of Garchomp. When everything he has going for it is put together, Defensive, Offensive, and the Support it gives the rest of your team, it seems overwhelmingly Uber.

Let me attempt to bullet point everything that Garchomp has going for it... Some bullets get repeated, because they fall under more than one categories.

OFFENSIVE
- Astronomical Attack stat... 130
- Great STAB, one of, if not the best offensive type combination possible.
- Solid speed, 102 eliminates a few would-be speed ties

DEFENSIVE
- Very bulky, 108HP/95Def/85SpD
- Strong defensive typing, better than most other similar sweepers
- Resists Stealth Rock
- Immune to Thunder Wave
- In addition to all the above, Sand Veil adds huge RNG to benefit his defenses beyond already being strong.
- 1/3rd no misses, 1/3rd one miss, 1/3rd two or more misses.
- No Counters
- No reliable checks due to the significant difference between choice, yache, powder, and sub Garchomps, combined with Sand Veil for all varieties of Garchomp.
- Solid speed, 102 eliminates a few would-be speed ties.

SUPPORT
- Due to Sand Veil Hax, it can unreliably be killed without a large number of opposing checks to threaten it, which may allow others in your team to sweep the overloaded Garchomp checks.
- Often requires the sacrifice of a disproportionately large number of a opposing team in order to kill Garchomp.
- Stealth Rock resistance allows Garchomp to switch out fairly easily.
- The best way to kill an opponent's Garchomp, is with your own Garchomp.

...

SUMMARY
Garchomp has the most powerful OU offense, backed by strong defense, good speed, great typing, and requires minimal support. And all this is combined with a powerful RNG defense; Unlike other heavy RNG Pokemon, Garchomp no weakpoint in in either offense, defense, speed, or typing.

That pretty much fits under the Uber classification IMO. It's easy to pick at any individual aspect and say "Oh, he's not really uber," but when you put everything together, no other OU Pokemon has even remotely close to as much going for it as Garchomp does. Maybe it doesn't quite qualify under the offensive category, maybe it doesn't quite qualify under the defensive category; but when you take both the offense, and the defense, and the RNG together, it easily is Uber.

Garchomp would be borderline Uber, and probably still Uber without it's ability. With it's ability, it is catapulted into Uber, as no pokemon that is offensively and defensively powerful as Garchomp should have such a strong RNG. Garchomp is broken.

Did I miss anything? Is there any reason why Garchomp should not be Uber based on that list?

I actaully agree to most of the things you said.
I applaud you!

 

[nJoyUrAIDs]

ya i actually agree with the above also but for me the main part that makes it uber is its versatility and being able to have so many different movesets all with different counters/checks. but i think it should go into OU cuz right now the metagame is boring as hell and we need some change

 

[Mrobinson587]

I am solidly in the "Uber Garchomp" camp, simply because it has so much going for it. I think a lot of people who try to argue that it should be OU, are trying to only focus on one or two aspects of Garchomp. When everything he has going for it is put together, Defensive, Offensive, and the Support it gives the rest of your team, it seems overwhelmingly Uber.

Did I miss anything? Is there any reason why Garchomp should not be Uber based on that list?

Great first post; welcome to smogon!

I believe that those are the reasons many of us in the Uber camp claim it should be there.

nJoyUrAIDs
Wanting it to go to OU to "shake up the metagame" is a poor reason and is not in line with how we should be voting.

 

[RaikouLover]

Garchomp has the most powerful OU offense

Actually, you want to take a look at pure offense? Try the damage output of a fictional pokemon with 400 HP and 300 Defense:

+2 Jolly (359 Attack) Garchomp Outrage: 77.25-91%
+2 Adamant LO (350 Attack) Lucario Close Combat: 97.75-100%
+1 Naughty LO (405 Attack) Salamence Outrage: 84.75-99.75%

Actually, PLEASE do damage calculations or have facts before you make claims like this. EVERY Swords Dance Garchomp is JOLLY, NOT ADAMANT.. if you go Adamant, Garchomp loses that huge speed advantage all you pro-uber Garchomp users are raving about. Well, a +1 Salamence is running a positive nature, and with Life Orb it actually outdamages Garchomp. Numbers don't lie, sorry. Lucario's Close Combat is actually the strongest offensive move in OU when you talk about how it shatters Skarm in one hit (something Chomp can't boast).

backed by strong defense

True, but you aren't investing in Garchomp's defenses so that is a moot point. Yes, he is bulkier than pert, but don't let that deceive you since all the EVs are going into Attack and Speed.

good speed, great typing, and requires minimal support

All of these are true, but do not do anything to dignify Garchomp's placement in Ubers. You have mentioned nothing about how Garchomp sweeps a large portion of the metagame or why he aids other pokemon in sweeping a large portion of the metagame. I really really wish we could give Garchomp a run in OU again so all the people who rave about how broken it is whore it to the top of the ladder like people did with Wob and Deoxys-E.

Garchomp no weakpoint in in either offense,

Garchomp cannot OHKO any physical walls, even with his special attacks unlike mixed sweepers like Salamence and Infernape. He can only achieve this with +2 Outrage, which guarentees he will only get that kill in the match which is the side effect for locking himself in :/.

Sorry, Garchomp's moveset is not Swords Dance, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Crunch, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Fire Fang, Fire Blast, Draco Meteor. Pick 4.

defense

Garchomp is 4Xs weak to ice. We know this. Ice Beam is one of the most common moves already thanks to its general usefulness. If you have trouble killing Garchomp, you should not be playing pokemon.

speed

Garchomp has base 102 speed and no way to boost it. He will not be sweeping teams with pokemon faster than him. PERIOD. Name the last time you have been swept 6-0 by Garchomp? Chances are it was because of something outrages like 5 Sand Veil haxes, which is outrageously bad luck and no circumstance for banning him. Gyarados' Waterfall flinches you with the same frequency yet people don't bitch about it... Would you like a list of all pokemon faster than Garchomp without a need for Scarf that commonly can carry a move to OHKO him? These are just naming pokemon who don't even have to change a common set to beat Garchomp!

Infernape
Azelf
Starmie
Raikou
Gengar
Sceptile
Jolteon
Weavile

When everything he has going for it is put together, Defensive, Offensive, and the Support it gives the rest of your team, it seems overwhelmingly Uber.

Did I miss anything? Is there any reason why Garchomp should not be Uber based on that list?

I would like to hear the offensive, defensive and support characteristics that make Garchomp "overwhelmingly" Uber, because I have yet to see an argument that uses these. Thanks.

 

[Heartgold]

I've opted to stay away from this thread, these arguments are getting ridiculous. People commenting on Garchomp's uber status like....

102 speed! Seems like Garchomp is the fatest OU pokemon and nothing outspeeds having the ability to kill it? oO
Sand veil! This can be applied to other pokemon, no? From another perspective, Gyarados has a equal chance of flinching you to death.
SD+2! No really, garchomp switches in with a +2 attack, that's the idea I've been getting with people stating this.

ridiculous x_x

 

[Mr.E]

While I applaud new user Karilyn's effort, all he/she really did was list all of Garchomp's attributes. I could do the same for, say, Gyarados. Replace "Resists SR" with "Is immune to [Toxic] Spikes." Replace Sand Veil with Waterfall flinch two lines down. Point out its resistance to Bullet Punch and neutrality to Ice Shard. You get the idea. The Support/Summary sections are just conjecture or opinions; I disagree that a disproportionate sacrifice is required to beat Garchomp (rarely does it do more than trade in my experience) and using your own Garchomp to beat an opponent's is just silly. Better be using Scarf or Haban Berry. :P

People asking for Garchomp to be put back into OU just because the current metagame is "stale" or "boring" is every bit as stupid a reason as some of the garbage spewed from the anti-Garchomp people. (e.g. Gravity makes Salamence susceptible to TSpikes...) Stop with that nonsense. If you can't qualify your vote with objective (and rational) reasoning, you don't deserve one.

So basically because Garchomp is hit by the "less common" entry hazard while Salamence is hit by the most common entry hazard, Salamence is more consistently successful?

I'm saying TSpikes hurts Garchomp more than SR hurts Salamence, mang. Say, Salamence is 90% as efficient as Garchomp. It's always running this arbitrary efficiency value, against all teams. Garchomp is our baseline "100%" figure most of the time... but occasionaly, an opponent will use Toxic Spikes and Garchomp is like 30% as effective as it normally is. Now its SD sets can't set up effectively and its Choice sets are more frail than normal, luxuries Garchomp is used to being given and functions mediocre without.

Its useless because they don't get the +2 that really fucks everything over. Because... shit can actually survive a +1 LO Salamence... and even if it can't you're trading the ability not to get revenge killed by Latias/Starmie etc by the ability to be worn down easily by SR and SS. And yeah, that actually matters. Not to mention that Kingdra's sweep is a lot easier to end if you aren't a stupid player (and it has lots of counters, most certainly more than Garchomp or Salamence).

I'm not going to touch Kingdra, though I think you're selling it woefully short, but +1 LO Salamence is exactly as strong as +2 plain Garchomp. (Deluge already provided calcs... and continued to run this discussion.) As you said, we're just trading one advantage for another in the end... So what exactly is making Garchomp so much more "uber?" Are you just saying that not being worn down by residual damage as readily is more important than beating fast revenge killers? That's hardly something you can prove, that's pure opinion. I'd say it heavily depends on the two teams doing battle. Salamence looks a little better in comparison if you have a Rapid Spinner or if neither team is even using T-Tar/Hippo, similarly for Garchomp in reverse. Salamence looks better if all your opponent has left is Starmie / Latias / Skarmory, Garchomp looks better when they're Swampert / Metagross / Tyranitar... whatever, you know?

I was being facetious about the Manaphy->Gyarados centralization thing. I was more pointing out that HP Electric on Manaphy is pretty silly when it has generally superior options available. The whole "overcentralization" argument is bunk, as you yourself notioned with bringing up HP Fire on random crap for Scizor. Obviously, Garchomp is a major threat regardless of its tier status. Calling "centralization" on people simply being prepared for a top-level threat is dumb, that's just how metagaming works.

lordkira
"While this statement of Garchomp's vulnerability to spikes and tspikes is true, I don't find this too troublesome against Garchomp. I don't find tspikes and spikes too worrisome as they aren't as effective as SR. SR, whether it is super effective against one or not, hits all and the other two do not."

While I agree with you (clearly), your opinion isnt a valid argument. Just because 'you' don't find [toxic] spikes worrisome doesn't mean the rest of the competitive battling community does not. It would be better to state how Spikes and toxic Spikes aren't as widespread nor as effective as SR (which you did briefly touch on, but only _briefly_).

I almost responded to this earlier but wanted to save it for when I had other substantial substance to post. Spikes and TSpikes are absolutely not less effective than SR. They are merely less common. One layer of Spikes is not useless despite many people acting like they don't even exist unless all three layers are down. The ability to stack Spikes is actually what makes it better than SR, as Spikes will end up doing more damage unless the opponent's team is most all Flyers. (SR's biggest aspect is its item scouting, not damage.) TSpikes is a little more specialized against particular threats but they're very useful on the right team.

I don't really understand how this thread has turned into a Salamence v. Garchomp discussion. Salamence isn't a suspect, dropped to 6th in usage, etc etc

Deciding whether or not Garchomp sweeps significant portions of the metagame with little support doesn't matter whether or not Salamence does it better. The only relevance would be discussion of Salamence as a check to Garchomp.

It's highly relevant when the latter is probably heading back to Uber permanently while the former isn't even on the Suspect radar. If Garchomp is Uber because it easily sweeps teams but Salamence does that same thing... Well, that tells us either Salamence needs to be a suspect too or Garchomp should be a non-suspect. The whole point of harping on this comparison is to get people away from the false perception that Garchomp is some unique snowflake with unparalled, unstoppable characteristics. But it's just a bulkier, slower DDMence!

 

[Zangetsu9876]

After reading alot of these posts, I have to say I'm really amazed. I don't understand why so many people get so adamant about this discusion. I personally dont know what to think since after I read a post giving reasons why Garchomp should be OU, a few posts later someone is calling that person an idiot and giving reasons why its Uber and over and over. It really seems to me what matters to people is not wether Garchomp is OU or Uber, but that their side is right and they want to gloat in the other groups face when Garchomp goes their way.

 

[lordkira]

"I almost responded to this earlier but wanted to save it for when I had other substantial substance to post. Spikes and TSpikes are absolutely not less effective than SR. They are merely less common. One layer of Spikes is not useless despite many people acting like they don't even exist unless all three layers are down. The ability to stack Spikes is actually what makes it better than SR, as Spikes will end up doing more damage unless the opponent's team is most all Flyers. (SR's biggest aspect is its item scouting, not damage.) TSpikes is a little more specialized against particular threats but they're very useful on the right team."

I would not say tspikes and spikes are more effective than SR as SR hits everything while the other two DO NOT. I could go into more details as I have said earlier but this is really not the place and we should discuss this here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62667

I think this whole SR, TR, Spikes discussion has gone off on a tangent of absolutes that we don't even really need to address here.

Rock attacks do hit everything while ground attacks are evaded by Flying types and Levitate Pokemon.
But you are still going to deploy the right attack for the right circumstance preferring to hit rock resists like Metagross/Lucario with Earthquake even at the risk of letting in Flying types.

So the point is that if you want to punish some grounded threats more you'll employ stack-able Spikes/TSpikes over Stealth Rock.
Even pre-Garchomp there are dangerous grounded threats which resist SR but we have generally preferred SR due to its ease of deployment and effectiveness against the irascible Salamence and Gyarados.

However, if the presence of Garchomp tips the scales a bit more in favor of Spikes/TSpikes (which does not hit ONLY Garchomp) does that mean Garchomp is Uber?
If the consensus is that the above is a difficult argument to make, we can say that deployment of grounded entry hazards is a way to limit Garchomp switchins in a metagame he inhabits.
IMO, why should we complain that he resists Stealth Rock when we have other options that we often choose not to exercise.

Besides, it is not an "either" "or" proposition the way the choice is usually framed since the hazards accumulate.
Many leads and support Pokemon don't have a better option that SR and can continue to carry that.
A Spiker (a couple of which can double as Dragon resists and defensive Pokemon) is an option after that.

I'd like to talk about this but meh not in this thread.
We could discuss this in the other appropriate thread (more) if you'd like.

 

[deluge]

Actually, you want to take a look at pure offense? Try the damage output of a fictional pokemon with 400 HP and 300 Defense:

+2 Jolly (359 Attack) Garchomp Outrage: 77.25-91%
+2 Adamant LO (350 Attack) Lucario Close Combat: 97.75-100%
+1 Naughty LO (405 Attack) Salamence Outrage: 84.75-99.75%

Actually, PLEASE do damage calculations or have facts before you make claims like this. EVERY Swords Dance Garchomp is JOLLY, NOT ADAMANT.. if you go Adamant, Garchomp loses that huge speed advantage all you pro-uber Garchomp users are raving about. Well, a +1 Salamence is running a positive nature, and with Life Orb it actually outdamages Garchomp. Numbers don't lie, sorry. Lucario's Close Combat is actually the strongest offensive move in OU when you talk about how it shatters Skarm in one hit (something Chomp can't boast).

These claims do not respect fact, it's amazing!
I just showed pretty much the same thing (versus 404HP, 306 Def) and I used Adamant Chomp.
But, you rightly point out that if its speed is raised with Jolly, as is common, it's attack is capped at 359 to Salamence's 400 resulting in the calcs above.
The standard Garchomp boosting sweeper set does not significantly outdamage other strong OU sweeper sets.

Garchomp's main innovation is combining damage output with acceptable bulk and reasonable speed.
However, it's good speed is still not unassailable as it cannot be boosted and it does not have priority to pick off frail threats as Lucario can.

Theory aside, Garchomp is manageable in practicality.

 

[deluge]

"I almost responded to this earlier but wanted to save it for when I had other substantial substance to post. Spikes and TSpikes are absolutely not less effective than SR. They are merely less common. One layer of Spikes is not useless despite many people acting like they don't even exist unless all three layers are down. The ability to stack Spikes is actually what makes it better than SR, as Spikes will end up doing more damage unless the opponent's team is most all Flyers. (SR's biggest aspect is its item scouting, not damage.) TSpikes is a little more specialized against particular threats but they're very useful on the right team."

I would not say tspikes and spikes are more effective than SR as SR hits everything while the other two DO NOT. I could go into more details as I have said earlier but this is really not the place and we should discuss this here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62667

I think this whole SR, TR, Spikes discussion has gone off on a tangent of absolutes that we don't even really need to address here.

Rock attacks do hit everything while ground attacks are evaded by Flying types and Levitate Pokemon.
But you are still going to deploy the right attack for the right circumstance preferring to hit rock resists like Metagross/Lucario with Earthquake even at the risk of letting in Flying types.

So the point is that if you want to punish some grounded threats more you'll employ stack-able Spikes/TSpikes over Stealth Rock.
Even pre-Garchomp there are dangerous grounded threats which resist SR but we have generally preferred SR due to its ease of deployment and effectiveness against the irascible Salamence and Gyarados.

However, if the presence of Garchomp tips the scales a bit more in favor of Spikes/TSpikes (which does not hit ONLY Garchomp) does that mean Garchomp is Uber?
If the consensus is that the above is a difficult argument to make, we can say that deployment of grounded entry hazards is a way to limit Garchomp switchins in a metagame he inhabits.
IMO, why should we complain that he resists Stealth Rock when we have other options that we often choose not to exercise.

Besides, it is not an "either" "or" proposition the way the choice is usually framed since the hazards accumulate.
Many leads and support Pokemon don't have a better option than SR and can continue to carry that.
A Spiker (a couple of which can double as Dragon resists and defensive Pokemon) is an option after that.

 

[Karilyn]

Name the last time you have been swept 6-0 by Garchomp? Chances are it was because of something outrages like 5 Sand Veil haxes, which is outrageously bad luck and no circumstance for banning him. Gyarados' Waterfall flinches you with the same frequency yet people don't bitch about it

Sand veil! This can be applied to other pokemon, no? From another perspective, Gyarados has a equal chance of flinching you to death.

Everytime I read this, I cringe. When was the last time any Uber swept you 6-0? Sand Veil is not the same as Waterfall. People like to disregard Sand Veil, by saying it is the same as Waterfall. But it isn't. Let's try rewording Sand Veil into an equivalent Ability.

Sand Veil
In a Sandstorm, you have a 20% chance to have your attack become +8 Priority (faster than even pursuit), and cause the opponent to Flinch.

It's not equivalent to just a 20% chance to cause the opponent to flinch, because you can only flinch your opponent if you are faster than your opponent. Sand Veil always works on someone, even the handful of Pokemon who outspeed whatever type of Garchomp you are using. Sand Veil out-speeds EVERYTHING. Also? Another difference.

Waterfall is a move. Sand Veil is Passive.

Gyarados cannot use Waterfall hax if it needs to use one of it's other attacks . Also... Since you want to compare Gyarados's Waterfall to Sand Veil in a vacuum (and simultaneously ignore that Sand Veil is superior to Waterfall). Here is a comparison of the two, while not in a vacuum:

Garchomp: 1 weaknesses
Gyarados: 2 weaknesses

Garchomp: 102 Speed
Gyarados: 81 Speed

Garchomp: 108 HP / 95 Def / 85 SpD
Gyarados: 95 HP / 79 Def / 100 SpD

Garchomp: 120, 100, and/or 80 Power STAB
Gyarados: 80 Power STAB, unusable second type

Garchomp: Super Effective STAB: Dragon, Fire, Rock, Steel, Electric Poison
Gyarados: Super Effective STAB: Fire, Ground, Rock

Garchomp: Resists Stealth Rocks
Gyarados: Weak to Stealth Rocks

I could go on for a while I'm sure. In nearly every way, Garchomp outclasses Gyarados, which is already a very peak of the top tier when it comes to Bulky Sweepers. The same thing can be done with Salamance. The same thing can be done with everything in OU. The Passive RNG, utterly breaks Garchomp.

 

[boredomisbliss]

as much as i would hate to see garchomp in OU, more and more i am getting the feeling that garchomp is not uber. it is not too hard to check garchomp (as long as latias stays in OU i guess), especially since the metagame is already so focused around steels and dragons. so far ive barely been swept by garchomp, but when i have, i have sand veil to blame for that (my scarfed outrage missed his SDchomp twice in a row in two different battles...)

Karilyn, you are missing quite a few important points. first, waterfall is not an amazing move, which is why there are 2 other moveslots, to complement the basic stab


automatic updates in 40 seconds haha, ill edit this once i restart

 

[Karilyn]

Karilyn, you are missing quite a few important points. first, waterfall is not an amazing move, which is why there are 2 other moveslots, to complement the basic stats.

I thought I said that. *nods*

Which is one of the two reasons the flinch hax is completely incomparable to the sand veil hax.

1. Sand Veil works even if the opponent outspeeds you or uses a priority move.
2. Sand Veil is passive, and provides RNG Defense without restricting move selection. Waterfall is a move, and is often not the best option for a Gyarados to use.

 

[ultimifier]

Actually, you want to take a look at pure offense? Try the damage output of a fictional pokemon with 400 HP and 300 Defense:

+2 Jolly (359 Attack) Garchomp Outrage: 77.25-91%
+2 Adamant LO (350 Attack) Lucario Close Combat: 97.75-100%
+1 Naughty LO (405 Attack) Salamence Outrage: 84.75-99.75%

Actually, PLEASE do damage calculations or have facts before you make claims like this. EVERY Swords Dance Garchomp is JOLLY, NOT ADAMANT.. if you go Adamant, Garchomp loses that huge speed advantage all you pro-uber Garchomp users are raving about. Well, a +1 Salamence is running a positive nature, and with Life Orb it actually outdamages Garchomp. Numbers don't lie, sorry. Lucario's Close Combat is actually the strongest offensive move in OU when you talk about how it shatters Skarm in one hit (something Chomp can't boast).

Please next time don't be a hypocrite. I dont know what exactly is the most powerful physical attack in ou as that means absofuckinglutely nothing. Rhyperior, Aggron, Salamence, even relicanth have stronger attacks than lucario.

Let's disect this post even more. You state that a +1 Salamence outdamages garchomp... cool. He will also have 59% left of his health after one attack while garchomp will have 94%. I'd rather have a pokemon that has 94% of his health rather than a pokemon who has 59% of his health and has a measly 0.3% more attack with one less stab attack to use *This all assumes SR, Sandstorm, and jolly natures, with a LO attacked to salamence*

So im neutral in this respect as i dont even play OU much, but some of these arguments are just retarded and hypocritical. And on the topic of RaikouLover implying Lucario is around as good as garchomp, ARE YOU SERIOUS? Take a look at the top 5 in usage and come back to me.

 

[Delta 2777]

Why is everyone assuming Garchomp's Sand Veil auto activates? It is only run with Tyranitar on its team 37% of the time. In addition to that, like I said, if Sand Veil is the defining characteristic for Garchomp's "Uberness," why have we not tested Gliscor/Cacturne? Why haven't we tested Tyranitar himself, the means of all the sandstorm? Why isn't hail a weather source, Abomasnow is just as capable of fending for himself in OU/Suspect matches. >.> I really have had enough of people complaining about Sand Veil on Garchomp when there's other stuff to blame for it.