Is Toxic Spikes Worth It In Standard OU?

[Chou Toshio]

To me, the main benefit lies in, as often noted, the importance of taking out the opponent's "bulky water." This is an important step in pretty much any offensive-oriented team, and even for defensive teams, the likes of Swampert or Manaphy can be a major thorn in your side. Toxic has always been a crippling move against bulky water pokemon in general, and Toxic Spikes are also valuable in that regard.

 

[okappa]

The majority of OU may be immune to Toxic Spikes, but like many others have said, it can be very helpful against certain walls, Bulky Waters, etc. The important thing to consider is whether it's worth dealing with the immunities to poison those one or two Pokemon per team that will really be crippled by the effects. Sure, maybe their Scizor and Metagross will be immune to them, but that might be worth it if you can poison that Hippowdon they've been hiding backstage, or set up an easy kill on their Tyranitar.

Also, like Spikes, I think it's significant to notice that a large number of the Pokemon that are immune to TSpikes will take significant damage from Stealth Rocks. I think the key to using T-spikes well is to use them in cooperation with not only walls, but Stealth Rocks and/or Spikes, as well as a Ghost-type (spinblocking and Rotom/Gengar check) and viable counters to the various Immunities and Steel-types that will resist both. (I'll take this oppurtunity to nod in Infernape, Heatran, and Lucario's direction, since they can handle a lot of the typical Steel-types, as well as Immune and Natural Cure Pokemon like Snorlax and Blissey.)

It's not as much of a universal hazard as SR or spikes, as you actually have to build a good portion of your team around them. But that doesn't make them useless by any means.

 

[Noey19]

I dont think T-Spikes is very useful as there is many things in OU that are immune to Poison and Levitate. This might only work under gravity but you still have all those steel types.

 

[FelixMinamimoto]

I stopped using T-Spikes after the original team I had (when I was a lot more noob-ish) failed epically in using it. I've only used it on a stall team, where I think it has its only major use. Taking out a bulky water aside, for an offensive team, I am left to wonder how it would be worth a spot on the team? Especially heavy offense, which I like to play, I'm left to wonder when I'd have the time to put it down without having to balance my game around it.

The advent of toxic spikes made stall teams more prevalent, and rapid spinners (especially Rapid Spinner Starmie) as well. In the rest of the metagame, I don't think it's worth it. Just my two cents.

 

[ginganinja]

Some people still do not get toxic spikes...
It is not used for weakening the majority of offensive threats (SR is better for this).
Instead it weakens walls and mainly bulky waters. Yes we all know that their are heaps of Steel types in OU but for some teams, the ability to stop Blissey or Vap is needed.
In conclusion just like spikes, toxic spikes has to fit the team that uses it. It cannot be haphazardly thrown onto a team like SR can and so therefore serious thought needs to be done when players are considering using it on their team.

 

[TEzeon]

Toxic spikes seems really good against stall, but most offensive teams have around 4-5 pokemon that resist it so it's hard to say.

 

[MegaTrumpetDude]

It depends on your team. Toxic Spikes will aid you immensely in getting past Blissey if you're using SubPetayaEmpoleon for example. Generally, Toxic Spikes are useful in getting past walls. As the constant damage will severely weaken them. There is a reason as to why Toxic Spikes are the bane of Suicune's existance. If you need a way to get around their bulky water, Toxic Spikes help greatly.

 

[Bilaterus]

It seems that the majority of people criticising Toxic Spikes are only doing so because they do not realise its true purpose. As it has been mentioned before, it is used for eliminating walls - bulky waters and blissey especially- who will get in the way of a sweep of something which only gets one chance such as SubPetayaEmpoleon. It is also useful for stall which relies on the Toxic Spikes to drastically cut the effectiveness of certain threatening Pokemon such as Infernape.

The reason why people think this way could be because it is lumped together with SR and Spikes, so therefore it is used to pile on residual damage on the opponent's Pokemon. When actually, its purpose is to cripplespecific Pokemon.It could also be due to the first experience with TS; if it is slapped on one of the first teams made, without realising it is only beneficial to help certain Pokemon, it would be found that the turns taken to set it up were wasted.

Perhaps Toxic Spikes should not be used by a lead. Against some teams it is unnecessary, and against others you later wish you had done 1 layer more or less. Either way, turns have been wasted. Maybe TS should be set up mid game when you have a better idea about whether it would be worth setting up you are sure it won't be removed by a switch or a spin. Although, by then, it might be too late to set them up anyway.

I think that people who call Toxic Spikes a waste of time might also not like things like HP Grass. After all, Grass attacks barely scratch Salamence, Scizor, Latias, Breloom... the list goes on. But you cannot deny that HP Grass is useful. Why? Because it eliminates specific Pokemon who could otherwise be problematic. Same goes for Toxic Spikes.

My 4 paragraph's worth of cents.

 

[cmurph]

I think that people who call Toxic Spikes a waste of time might also not like things like HP Grass. After all, Grass attacks barely scratch Salamence, Scizor, Latias, Breloom... the list goes on. But you cannot deny that HP Grass is useful. Why? Because it eliminates specific Pokemon who could otherwise be problematic. Same goes for Toxic Spikes.

This is one of the worst analogies I've ever heard. HP Grass is a coverage move to complement your other attacks. It's not a support move that you can waste two turns using only to find out your opponents team laughs at toxic spikes.

Anyway all the arguments for toxic spikes have been repeated over and over in this thread. It's useful for some teams, and a waste for others.

 

[Kachalski]

I used to run an old team with T-Spikes Roserade as a lead (Empoleon Sweeper), and I really found T-Spikes underwhelming after a while. The Pokemon they are supposed to wittle down have much better counters which can synergise with Empoleon. Spikes are much more effective for wittling down the opponent, IMO.

 

[evil_cpu]

when i use toxic spikes i tend to add spikes, seed, stealth rock just to chip away at my opponents health other than that like people have mentioned it is good to take walls down, from personal experience anyway.

 

[Bilaterus]

My analogies are never any good. :(

Anyway, my earlier post tried to show why people think TS isn't worth it, and I also suggested that it be set up later than turn 1, or not at all depending on the opponent's team. Is that a bad idea? If it is, then my analogy is pretty bad after all. Obviously, just because you have HP Grass doesn't mean you need to use it.

 

[Lesley]

I use Tspikes on every team I can fit them on. They make weakening and eliminating certain Pokes on the opponent's team so much easier. It's rare I see a team where something on it is not severely hurt by them.
Wall-breaking becomes easy if they're down, really.

 

[cmurph]

My analogies are never any good. :(

Anyway, my earlier post tried to show why people think TS isn't worth it, and I also suggested that it be set up later than turn 1, or not at all depending on the opponent's team. Is that a bad idea? If it is, then my analogy is pretty bad after all. Obviously, just because you have HP Grass doesn't mean you need to use it.

The reason your analogy doesnt work is because a ton of teams that use toxic spikes often have a slot entirely devoted to setting them up and usually use it as their lead (i'm looking at you roserade). It's not like a "oh i'll wait to see if they have a blissey or vaporeon before I throw down some toxic spikes." If it was then your analogy would kind of work because that's how people use hidden power grass. "I'll use hidden power grass if a swampert comes in on my jolteon, but otherwise I'll stick to my other attacking options"

 

[Uchiha_Madara]

Its definately good against stall, but offense usually can handle it no prob. I personally dont use it often cause i just end up losing my poke and it doesnt do much for me in the long run, but thats just me.

 

[cyberzero]

The reason your analogy doesnt work is because a ton of teams that use toxic spikes often have a slot entirely devoted to setting them up and usually use it as their lead (i'm looking at you roserade). It's not like a "oh i'll wait to see if they have a blissey or vaporeon before I throw down some toxic spikes." If it was then your analogy would kind of work because that's how people use hidden power grass. "I'll use hidden power grass if a swampert comes in on my jolteon, but otherwise I'll stick to my other attacking options"

Roserade does warrant a spot only due to Toxic Spikes for the most part, but it also has a high powered move in Leaf Storm and a relatively accurate sleep inducing move in Sleep Powder. Admittedly, wasting two moves for Pokemon that you aren't sure are there is definitely not smart. However, using a Pokemon like Tentacruel would be more wise because it can set up Toxic Spikes, and use Rapid Spin and Surf effectively. It is decently bulky and fast. Forretress can use other Spikes effectively and Rapid Spin as well. Wasting an entire team slot for Toxic Spikes is not a complete loss if the Pokemon can do other things effectively as well, but you must not look to use Toxic Spikes unnecessarily.

 

[Solace]

I think T-Spikes can be very useful seeing as it works just like Toxic, with cumulative damage each turn. This can really cripple pokemon without Natural Cure or Breloom w/out Poison heal. It can also be very unefficient. Pokemon that get hit by a Toxic will be affected by it (unless they're steel) and have the same damage. Although you can't be sure to get every pokemon sent out, you have a chance at getting those that are immune to T-Spikes, and cripple them just the same.

Pokemon that have other purposes could be useful with T-Spikes (Forretress and Tentacruel say hi) as well as Roserade as a lead. People who add a Pokemon to their team just to use Toxic Spikes are wasting a slot in a move and a Pokemon anyway, and its much easier to use something that will guarantee a hit and damage on the opponent.

 

[cmurph]

Roserade does warrant a spot only due to Toxic Spikes for the most part, but it also has a high powered move in Leaf Storm and a relatively accurate sleep inducing move in Sleep Powder. Admittedly, wasting two moves for Pokemon that you aren't sure are there is definitely not smart. However, using a Pokemon like Tentacruel would be more wise because it can set up Toxic Spikes, and use Rapid Spin and Surf effectively. It is decently bulky and fast. Forretress can use other Spikes effectively and Rapid Spin as well. Wasting an entire team slot for Toxic Spikes is not a complete loss if the Pokemon can do other things effectively as well, but you must not look to use Toxic Spikes unnecessarily.

Yeah but few peopele use Roserade if they don't plan on making toxic spikes a centerpiece of their team.