Upsetting The Metagame

[Orik]

Even if you won't admit it, we all know the metagame has become over centralized around certain threats; Scizor, Heatran, Salamance, Latias, Gyarados, Rotom, TTar, ect. It is the nature of the metagame to adapt to new threats, which usually means a couple days after the metagame gets shaken up by a new threat, it changes to counter that threat.

So, how do we upset the metagame? How do we create a threat that beats the current metagame AND stop a.) The new threat appearing on 30% of the teams, or b.) The new threat's counters appearing on 30% of the teams?

In short; How do we beat the Metagame?

 

[Firestorm]

The metagame is constantly evolving. Part of it comes from Nintendo itself. I quit playing this game long before Platinum came out, and on the list you just provided, only Salamence, Gyarados, and Tyranitar were on the OU list when I played. Scizor was a non-factor, Heatran came up every now and then, Latias was banned, and Rotom was laughable.

New strategies combined with new tools as Nintendo refines the game is how the metagame evolves. As one Pokemon becomes too threatening, their counters should see more use bringing down the level of saturation in teams with that threat.

I have no idea if Shoddy is currently played with HeartGold / SoulSilver changes, but that'll probably add another dimension to how Pokemon is currently played.

Your post seems to recognize this so I'm not sure what the topic is even about.

 

[Orik]

We currently do play with the changes;

Also, I accept that it evolves, like you said. The weaker pokemon get used less and less, and it filters out the less useful.

But what I'm wondering is how, if it is possible, do we cause the metagame to evolve into a wider metagame. Or maybe cause it to de-evolve...

 

[Lord Blood]

I have no idea if Shoddy is currently played with HeartGold / SoulSilver changes, but that'll probably add another dimension to how Pokemon is currently played.

Yes it is.

What I think that's going is a "re-discovery" if you will. It's basically like moves, abilities, natures, IVs, EVs, typing, and luck that are usable and the same that are dangerous but forgotten. Like Heatran for example. It's Hidden Powers are very powerful (no pun intended). But, it surprises the opponent's Swampert when you use HP Grass. And that's where the re-discovery comes in. People begin to use HP Grass Heatran. Then people realize that it's an easy switch from Scizor to come in, so they use Magnezone, etc. etc. It's a re-discovery metagame. Therefore, I don't think that there's a single way to 100% beat the metagame. Basically it depends on moves, abilities, natures, IVs, EVs, typing, and luck.

 

[VKCA]

Are you asking how we make a metagame where 52 pokemon are all equally viable?

 

[Umbreon Dan]

outside of discovering new ways to use old pokemon, there isn't anything we can do. in that regard, one can easily point to such discoveries as tyraniboah, specsmence, and subpetaya empoleon, or more recently, torment tran and leadnite.

how the top pokemon affect each other is a cycle that tends to balance out fairly quickly. scizor was brought to the forefront to counter salamence and tyranitar; gyarados and rotom-a were brought to the top to counter scizor. of course, various pokemon experiment with new ways to overcome these counters, like fire punch babiri tyranitar, but these don't generally become terribly popular. they function very well however as lures, ie a babiri berry tyranitar can open the door for a dragon dance mence.

that's not to say smogon hasn't tried to experiment in this regard. actually, this is what the CAP project is all about! in particular, arghonaut was fully intended to recentralize the top OU pokemon at the time.

 

[Orik]

Are you asking how we make a metagame where 52 pokemon are all equally viable?

I'm asking how we make a metagame that becomes so diverse that the majority if pokemon can be threats under the right conditions.

Also, Lord Blood, I like "Re-Discovery" thing... Maybe that is the solution; Re-discover, but then update to take account for the current metagame...

Hmmmm.... But, do you think there is any way to change the metagame so the cycle is larger and includes more pokemon...

 

[ultimifier]

OU is not in a "cycle" anymore. The top six are staying identical. Sure pokemon jump from 2nd to 6th then back to 2nd. But this corresponds to LESS THAN 1% DIFFERENCE!!!

Scizor, Rotom, Latias, Gyarados, Salamence, Tyranitar are just everywhere. Its ridiculous. Once you get to over 1400 pretty much every team has 3 of these. Latias and rotom in particular are centralizing the metagame like crazy. Just look at the HO thread, special HO teams are almost impossible to make because of how damn good latias is.

The OU metgame is not going in a cycle, it is going in a downwards spiral to the stagnancy that it is becoming. The only way its going to get any more exciting is if manaphy becomes OU. end rant

 

[Orik]

OU is not in a "cycle" anymore. The top six are staying identical. Sure pokemon jump from 2nd to 6th then back to 2nd. But this corresponds to LESS THAN 1% DIFFERENCE!!!

Scizor, Rotom, Latias, Gyarados, Salamence, Tyranitar are just everywhere. Its ridiculous. Once you get to over 1400 pretty much every team has 3 of these. Latias and rotom in particular are centralizing the metagame like crazy. Just look at the HO thread, special HO teams are almost impossible to make because of how damn good latias is.

The OU metgame is not going in a cycle, it is going in a downwards spiral to the stagnancy that it is becoming. The only way its going to get any more exciting is if manaphy becomes OU. end rant

My point in a nutshell! So; How do we stop it?

 

[Platyp]

There really are only three ways for a metagame to change.

1) A beastly, centralizing set is discovered.
2) A Pokemon is banned or unbanned.
3) Game Freak adds moves to movepools, new Pokemon, etc.

We have zero control over #3, so that's ruled out. If you want to go off and discover an amazing set, be my guest, but it will be an arduous task. Additionally, bans and unbans are controlled by Smogon's democratic system, but it usually doesn't turn out very well (i.e. that one period of time when Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet were OU).

 

[Quaily]

Well, you can look at what happened in UU when the dropped the 5 BLs back down into the tier. Generally that seems to upset people more than it might help. The same would probably happen if say groudon kyogre and mewtwo were all dropped into OU.

I do agree that past 1400 things got very stale with a majority of teams being stalls based on latias, rotom, and skarmory. Now I tend to play at a lower rating with teams that are not quite as optimal for laddering.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I honestly don't know if there's a way to balance the metagame in a somewhat even way - there probably isn't. The most used Pokemon are most used for a good reason. Most are not just to counter this and counter that, but just to rip apart teams, as there seems to be nearly anything to stop them. The problem is - that that "nearly" must be used to stop them, so if you lack that "nearly" factor you'll probably lose most of your matches. This, of course, discourages being original with less-used Pokemon when you think about how there are Pokemon that will just be more useful for that role. Overall, trying to come up with something new happens scarcely for a good reason, and the reasons I explained above should explain why. Sure; there's a breakthrough now and then, but changing the metagame, not talking about the way you suggested in the OP, but changing the metagame alone is almost impossible. So making it balanced is even more impossible than that.

 

[cantab]

There really are only three ways for a metagame to change.

1) A beastly, centralizing set is discovered.
2) A Pokemon is banned or unbanned.
3) Game Freak adds moves to movepools, new Pokemon, etc.

We have zero control over #3, so that's ruled out. If you want to go off and discover an amazing set, be my guest, but it will be an arduous task. Additionally, bans and unbans are controlled by Smogon's democratic system, but it usually doesn't turn out very well (i.e. that one period of time when Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet were OU).

Lemme guess, everyone lead with Deoxys-S, and Wobb was rendering counters useless or making everyone stick Baton Pass/U-turn on as much as possible?

 

[Chou Toshio]

To beat the metagame you have to do just that. Make the top 6 Pokemon less viable by making the bottom 6 Pokemon more viable. Whether it be by gimmicky sets or random Hidden Powers

For the most part, and the stat guys will chime in on this especially-- the games played by any 1 player have almost nill effect on the meta (unless he's so godly that everyone starts to mimmic him, but again that's not just 1 player).

 

[Imran]

People were saying "the metagame has become overcentralised" for the past x many years. If people are going to make threads complaining about it they should say "so the metagame has always been overcentralised."

 

[Mattman324]

Lemme guess, everyone lead with Deoxys-S, and Wobb was rendering counters useless or making everyone stick Baton Pass/U-turn on as much as possible?

Where do you think the Deo E lead was descovered? Before that, it was useless in Ubers cause we didn't know how to use it. So, it was dropped... where it was figured out after a while that it was FAR to powerful of a lead.

 

[afterburn]

Well I could just simply say: 'Scizor and its bullet punch fucked the metagame', and walk away, but that would be too vague. Scizor after getting its present, would just run rampant through teams, beating everything in its way, and that is where the other threats come in. Rotom-H increased in usage due to its ability to eliminate any steel-type mantis. Gyarados also went up in usage, Setting up on any BP or U-turn. ANd then Heatran and magnezone come in to fry the bug, blah, blah. So won't these Scizor counters, become the most fearsome for destroying such a potent threat. That's where there counters come in, which are also ironically countered by Scizor. I give you: Tyranitar, Jolteon, Starmie, Salamence (after a DD). So my point here is, once one Pokemon gets on the top of the usage, it shifts the whole metagame with it.

 

[cantab]

Where do you think the Deo E lead was descovered? Before that, it was useless in Ubers cause we didn't know how to use it.

And that expresses the essence of how the metagame changes. People discovering new ideas.

I'd say also it's going to be mainly good and experienced players who will devise new sets and recognise their effectiveness. Weaker players make errors through lack of knowledge, and that makes it harder for them to recognise whether or not their novel set is effective, since it may lose due to mistakes of the player. Anyone can come up with a set, but I think it takes a good player to tell if it's good or bad.

Somewhat related: I am not sure it would be a good thing to have more Pokemon. It seems to me like the current generation has sufficient threats that teams are on the edge of being able to counter everything. If more powerful Pokemon are added, I think it could become impossible for a team to counter even close to all the opposing threats. That will mean matches really being decided before they begin.

 

[Lord Shade]

But what I'm wondering is how, if it is possible, do we cause the metagame to evolve into a wider metagame. Or maybe cause it to de-evolve...

That's always been the question really, especially as of recently. I have a friend who's aim is to constantly try new teams, strategies that aren't commonly used, unexpected strats, UU and NU mon's over OU's, and all other sorts of things. He's actually quite good using stuff that most people consider beneath them, and he's an excellent trainer.

 

[Ulevo]

If you want to change the metagame, the method is quite simple.

Ban Stealth Rock.

 

[A.P.]

No. Banning things for no reason is not a worthy reason to ban it. Why is Stealth Rock broken? That's what you need to prove to ban it, and basically everyone thinks it's not broken.

There's no need to change anything in the metagame, there's nothing really broken at all. Like many posters have said, the metagame isn't a baby. It can take care of itself, for the most part, and changes on its own.

 

[blasphemy1]

If you want to change the metagame, the method is quite simple.

Ban Stealth Rock.

Yes, if you want to allow things like Charizard, Moltres, Articuno, etc, to be useful. Or if you want to make things like CB Scizor, Salamence, Gyarados, etc, etc broken as well.

 

[Ulevo]

Yes, if you want to allow things like Charizard, Moltres, Articuno, etc, to be useful. Or if you want to make things like CB Scizor, Salamence, Gyarados, etc, etc broken as well.

I simply promoted change, I never claimed what kind of change, as I didn't feel like leaving myself open for a silly debate that wouldn't lead anywhere.

But please, don't let me deprive you of having fun. If you feel that removing SR will make said Pokemon broken, then I'd enjoy hearing the reason as to why.

 

[kuja20]

Yes, if you want to allow things like Charizard, Moltres, Articuno, etc, to be useful. Or if you want to make things like CB Scizor, Salamence, Gyarados, etc, etc broken as well.

I wouldn't say that would make them broken, just makes them slightly easier to sweep, Vapreon/Porygon2 can still hurt Gyarados, Thunderbolts from Starmie/Rotom-A and the like will still ohko. I agree that the metagame would be interesting without Stealth Rocks, but lets be honest, unless you actually found a good reason to ban them, it just isn't worth it.

 

[chenman333]

The big question is really...why care? The metagame has always been heavily centralized, and metagames will always be centralized.

This is competitive pokemon. People want to win. People use the best pokemon since it helps them win.