Ambidexterity: Beating the New Metagame

[Shimrit As]

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I HATE SCARFTAR.
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( Team Building )

The release of the April statistics confirmed many of the changes in the OU metagame I had experienced. With the new trends having rendered traditional strategies and playstyles obsolete, I deleted my old team files to make a new one that could cope with the demands of the new metagame. Here are the results of my analysis:

Scarf Tyranitar is common (very, very common)
Pursuit-weak Pokemon (Latias, Starmie, Gengar etc) are much less viable
CB, DD and Mixtar are not expected
More openings for bulky stat-uppers (Gyarados, Suicune etc)

Machamp, Lum Metagross and Aerodactyl are rising as leads
Sleep leads (Roserade, Smeargle) and slow defensive leads (Swampert, Skarmory etc) are much less viable
Offensive anti-leads like Specs Heatran, Yanmega and Starmie are much more viable

Spikers (Skarmory, Forretress) are steadily rising in usage
Choice item users like Scizor and Tyranitar are being exploited
Bulky Pokemon with recovery moves are much more viable

Conclusion:
Use an offensive lead to gain momentum from the start
Use a bulky set-up sweeper
No choice users that will surrender the momentum
No weak support Pokemon that give stall teams chances to set-up
Maximize recovery options



( Team Line-Up )

( Miscellaneous )

Ambidexterity refers to being equally adept with both hands. Each of my six Pokemon bear multiple roles and responsibilities on the team, contributing to its success in their respective ways.

Note: all my Pokemon who can be female are female because of random stuff like Attract and Rivalry. It also boosts my ego to think that I have five girls at my beck and call. (Just kidding) I have therefore conscientiously referred to them with “she” instead of “he” or “it” throughout this RMT.



( Comments )

Metagross @ Life Orb



Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 220 Atk/40 Spd/248 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Zen Headbutt
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Bullet Punch

I wanted an offensive lead that could take on many of the popular leads today, and preferably be able to last long enough into the game to deal/tank some damage. I first looked for one that could either OHKO Machamp or at least come out tops 100% of the time. This, I realized, was a pretty tall order and the choices were very limited (unless you count a first-turn boomer but I didn’t want that). I looked for users of Flying and Psychic attacks and identified Azelf and Metagross as the only viable ones. I was drawn towards Metagross because of the sheer surprise factor + its ability to shake off the Tyranitar leads that would trouble Azelf, and tested a four-attack mixed variant that could hit many of the common leads super-effectively.

Mixed Metagross is one of the more potent attackers thanks to its useful type coverage and decent strength on both physical and special sides. I’ve never really considered this variant as anything but a gimmick but it works pretty well in the lead spot (and outside as well). Although it can’t take on quite a few leads one-on-one, it easily deals with those which my team has more trouble with – Swampert and Machamp, for example. I really appreciate its natural bulk and power (although I wish I could accommodate more than four moves).

Here’s how Metagross matches up against the Top 10 leads

Azelf: I go to Heatran to set-up SR because I can’t 2HKO it without Meteor Mash, and I don’t want to reveal my Life Orb anyway. Heatran can absorb any moves Azelf throws at it, including Trick. I don't consider this a loss because it almost guarantees Stealth Rock for my team.

Aerodactyl: Zen Headbutt + Bullet Punch for a 2HKO, no issues whatsoever.

Swampert: Outspeed and Zen Headbutt + Grass Knot for a 2HKO. The glitch is irritating because otherwise I would be able to OHKO it and prevent the opponent from getting SR down ever. PLEASE FIX THE GRASS KNOT GLITCH IN SHODDY 2! :]

Metagross: HP Fire is usually a 2HKO on those without Occa Berry, and I outspeed most variants. If it is faster and hits me with Earthquake first turn I am forced to run to Gliscor.

Jirachi: HP Fire is usually a 2HKO, and I don’t really mind picking up a Scarf. If not for the increasing use of Thunder Wave, this would be a perfect chance for Heatran to switch in.

Infernape: Switch to Dragonite and hit with Extremespeed twice to block Endeavour.

Machamp: OHKO a few times over with Zen Headbutt (YAY).

Ninjask: Spam Bullet Punch to retain the surprise factor of Zen Headbutt (just in case a Heracross comes in or something). 2HKO not guaranteed, especially for bulkier versions, but the pressure prevents Ninjask from setting up Swords Dances.

Roserade: Lucky these are getting less common, since I hate losing a member to sleep. Bullet Punch twice, and go to Dragonite to KO with Extremespeed if I get slept.

Tyranitar: Grass Knot for a 2HKO for both Scarftar and bulky mixed Leadtar, and I can survive its attacks. Good match-up for me.

My four attacks have good coverage, and although I’m walled pathetically by Heatran I have pretty decent cover for it already. HP Fire means no Skarmory or Forretress setting up on me, while Zen Headbutt deals with Tentacruel and can hit Rotom-A hard on the switch. This means that Metagross doesn’t leave gaps for opposing teams to set-up entry hazards.

Bullet Punch has been chosen over Explosion because Metagross won't be able to survive +1 Earthquakes from Salamence and Gyarados and stuff anyway. The priority helps out a lot against some Dragon Dancers like Tyranitar and Salamence and helps me beat a lot more leads than previously.

The Spe EVs help me get the jump on most other base 70s that don’t invest in speed, like Skarmory and Metagross, while maximum SpA is preferred to stun Swampert and incoming Forretress/Skamory. The leftover EVs were pumped into Atk, and conveniently result in a bonus point.
......

Heatran (F) @ Life Orb



Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 56 Atk/200 Spd/252 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

Life Orb Heatran is an offensive powerhouse, coming in on a fire attack or one of her many resistances to launch a devasting onslaught. My priority with this girl, however, is setting up Stealth Rock which really helps an offensive team like mine, and I need to get it up ASAP. If I can squeeze Heatran in on a locked Bullet Punch or something like that I always choose Stealth Rock first, which also conceals my Life Orb. This allows me to bluff Choice Scarf and KO incoming bulky waters.

Other than that, Heatran is a devastating sweeper in her own right. If I don’t have to blow up on something I can still wreak some major havoc with her high-powered fire attacks.

The Spe EVs are enough for Adamant Gyarados which like to switch in on me immediately, which allows me to explode in its whiskers for a KO. SpA was maxed out to give her attacks major bite, while the Atk EVs guarantee a OHKO on Blissey with Explosion.
......

Gliscor (F) @ Leftovers



Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP/32 Def/224 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Roost
- Toxic
- Earthquake

I was keen to work with Gliscor because of her ability to almost single-handedly dismantle stall. I have also found her extremely useful in dealing with balanced teams because of the Taunt + Toxic + Roost combination, coupled with her impressive speed, defences and array of resistances/immunities. Against stall, I can status and shut down Hippowdon, Rest + Sleep Talk Rotom, Ice Beam-less Blissey and many others. It also works well versus the Rest + Sleep Talk Heatran that have been popping up here and there. I have to be careful with this girl due to her weakness to Water and Ice, two common attacking types. If I mispredict and Taunt a Gyarados or Suicune I would have lost a valuable team member.

Gliscor provides a valuable immunity to Ground and a resistance to Fighting, as Salamence is too frail to cover such threats adequately. Thanks to Taunt (and the Water and Ice attacks she attracts), Gliscor also allows Kingdra easy switch-ins without fear of status or disabling moves.

I LOVE GLISCOR.
......

Dragonite (F) @ Life Orb

Dragonite (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 56 Atk/200 Spd/252 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Extremespeed
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Flamethrower

Salamence has been ditched for a MixNite because I desparately needed priority that could deal with DD Gyarados and DD Kingdra (somewhat). Dragonite packs just as much punch as Salamence did, though I do admit that I found the drop in speed rather sharp. This is, unfortunately, a small prize I have to pay; it's not that bad either when you consider that the faster walls like Gliscor and Zapdos can't really do much back to you.

Dragonite is my early game wall-breaker, since its tremendous synergy with Metagross and Heatran (usually the second guy I head to) mean I can get her in on an attack she resists or is immune to. The REAL THING that sets her apart from Salamence are her two physical attacks, Extremespeed and Superpower. While I used to find both Earthquake and Brick Break lacking on Salamence, Superpower's high base power really punishes Blissey, Snorlax and incoming Heatran. Extremespeed, on the other hand, checks so many Pokemon that rely on speed-boosting moves to sweep. It also turns Dragonite into a handy revenge killer, but unlike Scizor/Mamoswine she does not become instant set-up fodder for spike-stacking teams.

The EVs were tweaked slightly to maximize Dragonite's healthy base attack to boost Extremespeed's power output. Draco Meteor still packs a massive punch so I don't really want to go +SpA like the analysis recommended.
......

Jolteon (F) @ Life Orb



Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Shadow Ball
- Wish

I had never used any non-myopic Jolteon in my life prior to this, but I didn’t want my Specs limiting my options and allowing stall teams to exploit my frequent switches. Life Orb Jolteon still packs a punch but is able to change moves, which is really a godsend. Thunderbolt, HP Grass and Shadow Ball are standard on an offensive set due to the good coverage they provide together.

Jolteon is an efficient special attacker, but she does fill other roles on this team. If I’m sure my opponent is going to switch out but I have no idea what is coming in, I can open with Wish to heal up the rest of my team, especially with her synergy with the rest of my team. She is also a great asset against the bulky waters that threaten Gliscor and wall Kingdra thanks to her moderate SpD stat and Volt Absorb. Finally, her naturally high speed allows me to revenge kill +1 Adamant Gyarados, Gengar, Starmie, Infernape and various other sweepers that could really dent my team otherwise.
......

Kingdra (F) @ Leftovers



Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 184 HP/204 Atk/116 Spd/4 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Substitute

Kingdra is the Pokemon I wanted to base this team around. When bulky waters and steels have been eliminated or weakened, she can sweep entire teams on her own. I sometimes introduce her early game because her bulk and resistances mean she can absorb a few hits while I scout for counters. SubDD is the most used set (at 32%) which means players usually expect it once they see Kingdra, but there’s little they can do about it even then.

I have to credit RaikouLover for the EV spread, which has been the key to many of my victories. With 184 EVs in HP and 4 in SpD, defensive Starmie can’t break my sub with any of her attacks, which means free Dragon Dances for me. Choice-locked Steel/Water/Fire attacks are also easy set-up fodder, and once powered up my dual STAB attacks can power through what remains of my opponent’s team. I try to avoid using Outrage as long as possible, since the lack of Lum Berry usually forces me out once my rampage ends. However, Leftovers allow me to create many more Substitutes and is helpful when I introduce this earlier to absorb some resisted hits.

The SpE EVs allow me to outspeed all base 115s after a single Dragon Dance, and the leftovers from HP and SpD were pumped into Atk (where else would you expect me to put them). I think this EV spread is really efficient and I would never use the standard 252/252.
......



( Highly Uncomprehensive Threat List )

*I interpreted threat list as a list of threats, so I won't include the Pokemon that this team has no problems with. Here are a few problems which I hope you guys can help me solve :]

Jolteon can outspeed and KO Adamant variants but how am I supposed to know what their nature is? Although this guy doesn't get many chances to DD up, my lack of a bulky water or scarfer means I have to rely on Dragonite's Extremespeed to kill it off.

Jolteon can revenge-kill MixMence but I usually have to bait DD Mence into an Outrage or smack it with Bullet Punch on Metagross + Extremespeed on Dragonite. Bulky DD versions with Roost are a terror to face though.

Agiligross with Ice Punch really screws me up. Only Kingdra can withstand a hit but if it's weakened then GG. Luckily only 15% of them ran Ice Punch in April. The rest are handled adequately with Gliscor.

Latias is difficult to handle because Heatran has to BOOM to kill it while my other Steel is -SpD. This is compounded by the fact that it can switch in on half my team with its immunities/resistances. Specs can be worked around through sacrifices and finding a chance for Kingdra to DD up on a Surf, and Scarf can be outmaneuvered before I kill it off with dual priority, but both sets can cripple one of my key members with a well-timed Trick. Jolteon can threaten LO versions with Shadow Ball but against Calm Mind variants I face a bit of trouble.

The new-fangled 3-attack Suicune can hit a lot of my team super effectively, something I'm concerned about. I have to rely on Kingdra + Jolteon to take it down, but it can cause major damage in the process.

Empoleon can rape my team if it manages to find and opening. Although the only Pokemon it can safely switch in on is Kingdra, I can have issues coping if it is set up. My best bet is (ironically) Kingdra, and I try not to bring it into Petaya and Torrent range (KO it from >33%)

Mamoswine's dual STAB makes it a pretty serious threat. Early game Kingdra can take its hits and Jolteon can revenge kill, but LO variants are pretty tricky. I usually rely on Intimidate and prediction to beat it.



( Conclusion )

Okay that's it; this team doesn't have any laddering accomplishments and I think it's built on a sturdy enough principle but I need a bit of help from you guys (the experts). I get the feeling that while I made an effort to combat many of the rising threats, I am under-equipped to handle traditional powerhouses like DD Gyarados and DD Salamence.

Please RMT!

 

[Dead Optimist]

You like your life orbs :)

Anyway, I would go for bullet punch on Metagross, since Heatran is running explosion and can thus cover you there. BP, as you stated, lets Meta preform his lead job much better, giving you a little more momentum at the get go.

 

[ginganinja]

Wow you have put a lot of thought into think. Not running scarf on a poke is hard So I will try and keep this in mind. (its worth noting that according to your check list that the most viable state of play for your team is to run a HO team)

According to your lead list it seems that your Custom Lead loes to many leads or other meta sets do the same thing. I do think that the Lum berry Metagross with Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch and Eathquake and SR would work best authough you could run Explosion or Zen headbut over SR if you still wanted to keep that antilead thing going. The reason is this.
Azelf gets beaten with MM while you must run with your set.
Aerodactyl loses thanks to Bullet Punch yours fails to prevent SR can you can take heavy damage from Earthquake
Tyranitar, Machamp, Jirachi -both metagross win.
Infernape,Heatran -both lose.
Roserade-Lum wins your can lose if Sleep powder hits
Metagross depends on Lum leads but your lead wins
Swampert can win agasint Lum if it aviods Explosion, your varient wins

Basically I'll sumerise it here
The only leads that Lum Metagross loses to are Swampert, Infernape Heatran and other Metagross, your Metagross can handle Swampert and other Metagorss but loses to many more leads, so in a confusing and roundabout way I believe that Lum berry Metagross suits your team best.

You should go back to the New Mixmence set since it is pretty close to the set you are running now and earthquake offers slightly better coverage than Brick Break.

Have you considered running charge Beam on Jolteon over wish? After a Charge Beam boost it has the same power as Specs Jolt is its worth a look if nothing else

Have a Nice Day!

 

[jc104]

Unless it has been fixed, which I highly doubt, Grass Knot is glitched on Shoddy such that it ignores LO boosts. This means that your Metagross will fail to OHKO Swampert, raising serious questions to its viability. If this doesn't appear to be the case, please ignore me.

This means that you either need to use a Lum Metagross as suggested by Ginganinja, or try another anti-lead. A Machamp of your own would do a decent job, for instance. Alternatively, your Heatran would work fine in the lead position, opening up another slot for something else.

Your determination not to have a choice user is also opening up some serious weaknesses. Most notably, you have a large weakness to DDmence, particularly those that opt for Dragon Claw over Outrage. Jolly offensive DD Gyarados could also give you some serious problems. For the Mence issue, you need to have either something that can take either a +1 EQ or a +1 dragon claw, and OHKO Mence, or something that can outrun a +1 Mence and KO. Something like Scarf Latias or Starmie could deal with both of these threats.

This guy only gets the chance to DD up against Gliscor but if it sets-up and my team is weakened it might be GG right there.

Though you're right about that it might be GG, it has more places to set up than that. A -2 spatk -1 attack Salamence is complete setup bait for instance.

I feel that your Salamence probably wants max speed. It is very notable that most other Mence are doing this, and for good reason. At the moment you are getting outrun by Roserade, most Jirachi, Gliscor, Electivire, (lol) some Lucario, Flygon etc. The drop in power is really not that big a deal, and it will not be a "50-50" shot against many of these. You cannot afford to Outrage with the threat of these opponents coming in without getting KOed, so I would consider roost instead if you are unwilling to change your speed.

Good luck.

 

[Radon Imbalance]

Hey, tinky. This is a very well-thought out team you have so I'll try to shed what light I can on it. BP from your current Metagross spread deals 34.7% - 41.1% to standard DD Mence so I don't see it helping out much there as even SR + max damage from BP + one LO recoil (25 + 41 + 10 = 76) leaves him with 3 turns of LO recoil left to sweep. On the other hand, dealing that same amount of damage to MixMence will not allow him to switch in again as SR will kill him. Therefore, I think you should run BP. Most opposing leadGross will just EQ you and force you into Gliscor anyways. You can also stay in on leadRachi to scout for Trick and if it decides to set up SR, you can go to Tran. Likewise if it T-Waves, you can go to Gliscor.

I'm not a big user of MixMence myself, but I can tell you that you need to be running more Spd than you currently are seeing as your team is highly offensive and dependent on momentum. Assuming you do not want to give up the +Atk nature, you could run 12 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe. This spread allows you to outrun max Spd Timid Suicune who you've stated is problematic for your team. You also retain your OHKO on every common T-Tar variant assuming SR is up and often 2HKO Blissey with DM + BB assuming SR.

 

[CREAM_93]

I love the idea of the lead but i'll have to agree with ginganinja on the LumGross lead. If not, then I'd advise that you have Bullet Punch > Explosion, backing up Dead Optimist on that note.

You should go back to the New Mixmence set since it is pretty close to the set you are running now and earthquake offers slightly better coverage than Brick Break.

Sorry but what the hell is that? That sounds like set worshipping there... Although i know you recently just got to sleep from your post on my thread, lol so i wont blame you, but still outline why.

I see the point you're comming from, but the Speed of old mixmence just outrunning adamant luke and having a bit of HP for the bulk isn't a bad idea, simply because a SD Luke with Ice Punch will rip through the team. Gliscor does well otherwise if it doesn't have Ice Punch to predict a switch, because otherwise it's quite an issue for the team so having Mence check it more reliably is always good.

Having taken into account what Radon has added Jolteon can still hit suicune like a truck, especially offensive suicune considering that's what you fear more. And it's hard to switch mence in on suicune anyway so i don't see why adviding just using Jolteon is a stupid idea either :P

Speaking of Gliscor, i'm curious as to why you have the EV Spread listed, it that simply to outrun other Gliscor so you can Taunt first or what? If so you only reallistically need to jump 4more EV's, and i know that seems stupid seeming it's only 4 EV's different from your's but still that one extra point in Defense may in some obscurely minimal way benefit in the long run, or something like that.

 

[Nosferalto]

If your not planning on using Choice items on your team, your lack of revenge killer will make you vulnerable to an abundance of threats. That's why I believe that if you want this team to perform better, I would reccomend having priority moves on your team to make up for your lack of Choice Scarf revenge killer. While Gyarados and Salamence cannot set-up on anything, I feel like you need a more appropriate answer to those two as both can switch-into Gliscor; if you are foolish enough to keep Gliscor in on one of those two and go for Taunt, it might turn out it is a MixMence OHKOing you with Draco Meteor and Gyarados might Waterfall first to scout for it's counters. What I'm trying to say is that Gyarados and Salamence might force Gliscor out and Dragon Dance on the switch, potentially sweeping your team with ease after that. Gyarados is less of a threat because of the presence of Jolteon but Jolly natured Gyarados outspeeds Jolteon after a DD and dispose of it using Earthquake or Waterfall. While you are also able to revenge kill Infernape and Latias with Jolteon, those two are dangerous threats to your team since both don't require set-up moves (LO Latias and MixApe) to function effectively and your team's main selling point is the fact that it doesn't have any Choiced Pokemon which means set-up sweepers can't set-up on resisted moves. Your team offers Latias several opportunities to switch-in such as Heatran's Fire Blast or Earthpower and Gliscor and Salamence's Earthquake. From there, it can just fire off a Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse with only Metagross and Heatran being able to switch-in safely but sadly, Heatran is outsped and taken care of by Surf while Metagross' whole moveset is walled and must resort to Explosion which isn't reliable at all. Similarly, Infernape can come in after a team mate does down and sweep your team clean.

I mentioned earlier that this team is in need of priority moves because this team focuses on not using Choiced Pokemon which means you cannot use Choice Scarf and will therefore lack a revenge killer. To be honest, I dislike your mixed attacker Metagross lead as it doesn't fare really well against the most commonly used leads. In order to remedy your weaknesses, I would reccomend moving Heatran to the lead slot which means your team still utilizes an offensive lead to gain momentum from the beggining of the match like you originally wanted with Metagross. After moving Heatran to the lead position, I would then suggest replacing Metagross with a Scizor. Here are the sets:

Heatran @ Shuca Berry | Flash Fire
Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Fire Blast | Earthpower | Stealth Rock | Explosion

Scizor @ Life Orb | Technician
Adamant | 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Bullet Punch | Quick Attack | Roost | Pursuit

Scizor will provide two crucial priority moves for your team and a check to the above mentioned threats. With Bullet Punch it is able to revenge kill Salamence no matter how many DD it gets while Pursuit + Bullet Punch allows you to keep Latias at bay. Quick attack is a great move on Scizor particularly on this team since it allow Scizor to revenge kill Gyarados and Infernape. I would usually suggest the Choice Band set but since your desire is to avoid Choice items, this works fine too as Life Orb still boosts Scizor's impressive attack. Roost is for recovering your HP when needed obviously and fits your needs when you mentioned wanting to maximize recovery options.

It's obvious that you put big amounts of thought to build this solid team. That's my rate, I would test these changes and see if they work out for you. Good Luck!

 

[Alan]

This looks like a solid team, the scarftar drawing is adorable, and the team itself looks pretty solid. If you have problems with Latias, you could run Ice Punch over Zen Headbutt on Metagross, I know you lose your chance to deal with Machamp but in return you gain the opportunity to deal with Latias.

Thats all I can really offer. Cute layout by the way.

 

[Shimrit As]

Thank you all for your rates! I really appreciate it. (Though this would take some time to reply to.)

your Metagross will fail to OHKO Swampert, raising serious questions to its viability.

Omg. My Grass Knot has consistently been doing around 80% to Swampert, and I had originally assumed that they were SpD-buffed for random HP Grass on Lead Heatran or something. Yes, this really compromises Metagross' effectiveness.

Anyway, I would go for bullet punch on Metagross

I believe that Lum berry Metagross suits your team best.

i'll have to agree with ginganinja on the LumGross lead. If not, then I'd advise that you have Bullet Punch > Explosion.

I dislike your mixed attacker Metagross lead as it doesn't fare really well against the most commonly used leads.

you could run Ice Punch over Zen Headbutt on Metagross, I know you lose your chance to deal with Machamp but in return you gain the opportunity to deal with Latias.

Okay, while typing out the RMT I realised that Bullet Punch had way more utility than Explosion, and I tested it for a few matches and left it that way.

All these suggestions have left me in a dilemna. Metagross' main perk, to me, was its ability to OHKO Machamp without no issues. If not for that, Machamp completely rips through my entire team because I have no ghost to absorb Dynamicpunch and the sheer power cripples my frailer sweepers. My issue with Lumgross is that Meteor Mash is a 2HKO, which means Machamp can switch out and come back later to dent something. I had also predicted that sleep leads were dropping because of the increase in Lum Berry leads. I have met one Roserade during my entire trial run.

Lol I don't want to sound defensive or overly protective of my set, so I'll definitely give it a go. The extra bulk would also help me switch into Latias better, since I won't have to go -SpD. I'll get back to you guys on this. Thanks.

I feel that your Salamence probably wants max speed. I would consider roost instead if you are unwilling to change your speed. Something like Scarf Latias or Starmie could deal with both of these threats.

You should go back to the New Mixmence set. Have you considered running charge Beam on Jolteon over wish?

Firstly, I have reverted to Earthquake because its superior base power lets me KO several weakened enemies when I don't want to use my Dragon attacks.

Salamence has actually been magnificent for me. You said that I won't feel the drop in power, which I kind of doubt, but I'm willing to bump my speed up. Is max speed really necessary? Or should I cap it at 308 to outrun Timid Roserade? Actually, I've also been deliberating about using MixNite over Salamence, whose Extremespeed should help with a lot of my problems. I'll test Naive Salamence first, but please advise me on this one.

I'm reluctant to use Choice users, so yes I'm very vulnerable to Dragon Dancers. Starmie and Latias are both easily Pursuited (BY THE SCARFTAR I HATE), leaving me wide open to various other threats. I'm not sure where I could fit either of these in either. I'm sorry but I think I'll try to work around this weakness through priority instead of a Choice Scarfer.

About Charge Beam, it does increase my chances of sweeping late-game. However I don't really use Jolteon as a sweeper. She's more of a team player because she checks several bulky waters and thanks to her sheer speed she can outrun and KO many other threats which would run through my team otherwise (Gengar, Infernape..) Jolteon is also very much hit-and-run and because of that Wish is really useful. Sometimes if I'm up against a Vaporeon or something and I can't predict the switch in (or I predict Vaporeon to protect/wish), I can use the free turn to try and heal up my team mates. Frankly, the way I play Jolteon is sort of like SpecsJolt, but I'm anti SpecsJolt since Skarmory and Forretress would be setting up all over my locked Shadow Balls and Hidden Powers. Hope I explained myself adequately.

i'm curious as to why you have the EV Spread listed, it that simply to outrun other Gliscor so you can Taunt first or what?

Yeah, that's the main point. Personally, I feel that one extra speed stat goes a far longer way than one extra defence stat. That's my opinion because I like to avoid speed ties. To clarify, I don't run max speed on Salamence because everyone else does, and I didn't really feel like pushing all those EVs just for a 50-50 chance. But most Gliscor are content to run 216 EVs, which makes it worthwhile for me to invest 8 more.

I would reccomend moving Heatran to the lead slot. Scizor will provide two crucial priority moves for your team and a check to the above mentioned threats.

Well, I'm a bit reluctant to do that simply since Heatran loses out to Machamp. You can say I'm rather paranoid about Machamp.. but I think this is a worthwhile suggestion. It also helps me draw out bulky waters early so I can weaken them for Kingdra. Thanks, but I think I will test out Lum Gross first.

About Scizor, yes if I replace Metagross I would need another Steel because for me when I build teams I like to have at least two Steels for greater cover versus Dragons. I'll try it out after I finish testing the others, because if I revamp the entire team at once I'm afraid I might screw something out and lose the original synergy.

Thanks again for all the advice! (And the compliments too..)

 

[Shimrit As]

After some testing, I found Lum Metagross rather underwhelming because I had to switch out a lot more often since the type coverage was poor. With Bullet Punch over Explosion, I beat a lot more leads and its utility in the long run is far superior, so I would like to keep with the standard set. Thanks for the help though.

Frankly speaking, I did not test Naive Salamence. Instead I tested MixNite in her spot and loved it, so I stuck it there for good. The priority of Extremespeed has saved my ass many many many many times.

Please check out the new and improved team!

 

[Squidd]

sigh,i wrote out a post in detail and typical internet goes ahead and crashes.

short version:

make specstran your lead

Heatran@choice specs
modest | flash fire
252 SpAtk/216Spe/40HP
overheat
hp grass
dragon pulse
filler (earth power,flamethrower,explosion)

always ohkos machamp with overheat (machamps stay in vs heatran usually)...no machamp will stay in to die against a metagross. generally a good antilead. grow some balls and use choice sets.

Then in Heatrans place you can put this Jirachi

Jirachi@leftovers
bold | serene grace
92SpAtk/40Spe/240HP/136Def
stealth rock
wish
thunderbolt
hp ice

covers gyarados (you can switch in as it DDs, survive any gyarados +1 EQ unless it has life orb, but you still survive alot of the time). covers mence to an extent...well doesnt leave you anymore open to it at least. :P boltbeam just for coverage alongside the necessary support moves really. Evs always KO gyarados after rocks and leftovers...outspeed jollytar and some other stuff that i really cant remember, rest into hp and defence to give a lefties number and...defence! This Jirachi is a ncie defensive pivot for your team.

now you dont really need jolteon and your defensive synergy is fairly decent as it stands. your team is a bit slow so something speedy but more bulky than jolteon would be nice. a variety of things can fill this spot really. all the old threats seem covered still. ill let you experiment with this slot. just to throw something out there, you could try this Suicune:

Suicune@leftovers
timid | pressure
24HP/216Def/252SpAtk/16Spe
surf
hp electric
ice beam
calm mind

bit more insurance against mence+gyarados


overall i think your team is a bit slow :P but i think ive added enough bulk to sort of balance that out....of course dragonite could be replaced with a fast mixmence to help more...butttt i gather you have already tried that and opted for priority.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

This team has issues with Jolly Gyarados, as it outspeeds your Jolteon, and can cause a lot of problems for your team.

It also seems like you rely way too much on priority to beat Pokemon like DD Mence and Gyarados, and if Dragonite/Metagross are dead, it's pretty much gg.

I have an interesting suggestion to fix this situation. How about Choice Scarf Jolteon?

Jolteon @ Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
EVs: 4 HP/252 Sp. Attack/252 Speed
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Ice
-Shadow Ball
-Wish

Moveset is pretty straightforward. Thunderbolt for Gyara, HP ice for Mence, Shadow Ball for Rotom, and you are still able to support the team with Wish. You could put HP grass over ice, but I wouldn't do it, as T-bolt does not KO mence after SR. Your team also handles Swampert decently well. Timid is not recommended either because Modest still lets you outspeed all Gyarados and Salamence after a Dragon Dance. The difference in power between Modest and Timid is pretty significant.

Also, I agree with the others in saying that you should put a Lum Berry on Metagross.

Good luck.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I'm not sure that Kingdra outspeeds Base 115s after a single DD. Base 115 is 361 speed, so Kingdra would need to sit at 241 speed, meaning 140 speed EVs. That set poses an interesting question though: How bulky can Kingdra get before it noticeably loses its offensive power? Kingdra can even use a 184 HP/32 ATK/152 DEF/140 Spe with an Adamant Nature to ensure that a CB Scizor Bullet Punch doesn't break its sub, but what would a DD gain in that case mean? I understand your EV set, it's ingenious and I will test it on my DD Sub Kingdra, but is even more bulk more useful? I don't know the answer to that, but it might be worth trying out.

 

[Shimrit As]

Thanks for the rates once again. Before I respond, I would like to say that having laddered pretty extensively with this team, I have become much more familiar and comfortable with how it works. Through this, I have been able to play around some of the major threats to my team.

make specstran your lead. grow some balls and use choice sets. Then in Heatrans place you can put this Jirachi. This Jirachi is a ncie defensive pivot for your team. now you dont really need jolteon and your defensive synergy is fairly decent as it stands. your team is a bit slow so something speedy but more bulky than jolteon would be nice. you could try this Suicune

I appreciate your suggestion, and I have previously been impressed by Heatran's potential as an anti-lead lead as well. However, I don't think choice sets are about "having balls" because one wrong prediction could mean and opponent setting up on me and you can see that my team really hates that happening. Heatran now serves a very specific purpose on my team that is setting up Stealth Rock and killing off threats to Kingdra, such as bulky waters, Zapdos etc. She is often also used to absorb status and Dragon attacks later on in the game. I'm worried that using a Specs Heatran and a rather weak Jirachi would open me up to all sorts of trouble. Sorry about that.

Jolteon is also one of the most important members of the team, because she checks a whole lot of threats purely with its speed. You would notice that LO Gengar, LO Starmie and Mix Infernape totally annhilate my team, but Jolteon's higher base speed means she can easily revenge kill them after a sacrifice.

It also seems like you rely way too much on priority to beat Pokemon like DD Mence and Gyarados, and if Dragonite/Metagross are dead, it's pretty much gg. I have an interesting suggestion to fix this situation. How about Choice Scarf Jolteon

I completely agree with your first point. However, I am really really really against choice items on this team :/ 1 is because I'm not that great at prediction and 2 is because even if I predict correctly nothing is going to stop my opponent from coming in and setting up anyway. I'm not questioning the viability of choice users, it's just that I would much rather deal with DD-ers via priority than slap a Choice Scarf onto one of my Pokemon and find myself losing to stall and bulky stat-uppers more frequently. (Hope I don't sound too defensive/headstrong..)

I'm not sure that Kingdra outspeeds Base 115s after a single DD. How bulky can Kingdra get before it noticeably loses its offensive power? I understand your EV set, it's ingenious and I will test it on my DD Sub Kingdra, but is even more bulk more useful?

Uhh, actually Kingdra does outspeed positive Base 115s by hitting a speed stat of 352 after one DD. Well, the bulk that Kingdra gains through those HP EVs mostly come from its speed stat; I checked the speed tiers and the only real threats I fail to outspeed by not using 252 speed EVs are Jolteon and maybe +1 Adamant Gyarados. IMHO, going 252/252 is not the most efficient way to EV a SubDD Kingdra. I believe your concern is that while shifting all the EVs into HP might boost her bulk, she's going to be packing much less of a punch. I haven't really found that to be a problem as Kingdra hasn't lost that many Atk EVs, but the extra durability of her subs mean she can set-up much more easily versus Starmie and stuff like that.

 

[Epic Cherubi]

Interesting team, but drop that Metagross for a better lead. Since you aren't running Stealth Rocks try..

Metagross @ Lum Berry
Adamant
252 HP / 228 Attack / 28 Speed

Iron Head
Earthquake
Bullet Punch
Explosion

Does pretty similar to your current set but better. Iron Head avoids the miss from Meteor Mash (though both are acceptable) and is still guarenteed to KO most frail leads alonside Bullet Punch.

Speed outruns nearly all enemy Metagross and some lead Dragonite.

HP EVs lets you not get assraped by anything super-effectie, letting you survive Mamoswine Earthquake (plus Ice Shard) and take Azelf's Fire Blast all of the time. Lum Berry will beat the shit out of Roserade and Smeargle leads. HP will help late game at sponging Outrages and Draco Meteors.

Explosion will take Swampert and most Hippowdon out on turn one. They won't even get rocks down. Explosion is also good late game to pick off something or wipe out a crocune you can't get rid of.

Your set is pretty much guarenteed to remove Forretress and handles Skarmory to an extent but the above set does just about everything else better.

 

[Thatonebluecattanigga]

I think it's built on a sturdy enough principle but I need a bit of help from you guys (the experts).

Im sorry but i would have to disagree. You layed out all of these facts about the current metagame then seemed to completely disregard them as you built your team

-Your team is pretty latias weak as it is, escpecially specs latias who isnt as easy to work around as you are saying on your threat list. *note one of the reasons scarf tar is so popular is because of this thing.

-You use 4 pokes susceptible to spikes, atleast 2 of which can barely switch in easily with just SR down.

-your answer to alot of very common offensive threats is kingdra who also functions sort of as a sweeping win condition. With kingdra gone it seems like your team lacks solid answers to alot of pokemon. (LOtran being one who is becoming increasingly threatening)

-Alot of offensive threats get in rather easily and can put a dent in parts of your team or pokemon on your team before you can even hope to have a response to it. (LO starmie comes to mind, id say bandaiding with kingdras water resistance isnt always a viable option when dealing with him either).

-Your lead does not seem to deal with sleep leads that well since you lack lum berry, and your team in general (aside from that zenheadbutt kill at the beginning) does not seem like it can deal with machamp very well either. (gliscor can sometimes struggle to deal with machamp (confusion, icepunch, subsets)

-i would personally go back to the drawing board and try again, i cant really think of any small changes you can make to this team to make it seriously viable

 

[toshimelonhead]

While this team may have some problems (as all teams do), this team is nowhere nearly as bad as to say it's worth scrapping and starting over. I think if you call someone out with that here you have to be very careful not to lose your head, especially as a first-time poster.