Sweepers Don't Have To Be Frail - Packing On A Few Pounds

[burnpsy]

This is a team I made with the help of my tutor during a Smogon tutoring session. It performs well, and has gotten me to a CRE of 1345 without creating an alt - which is higher than I've even been. Note that the team must be possible to make on both Shoddy and Wi-Fi.

Changes are italicized.

I wanted to build a team that could rely on its bulk while sweeping. Agiligross was the first Pokemon that came to mind, and it got stuck there. Metagross also has the stats to back it up. So my next step was to add something that compliments it.

Suicune and Celebi/Shaymin have good synergy with Metagross, absorbing eachother's weaknesses without issue. As I looked into the problems with both Shaymin and Celebi, Celebi's Psychic-type kept seeming like more and more of a hindrance. Due to that, Shaymin was selected.

My next step was to find two Pokemon to lead with. Dragonite seemed like a viable, uncommon choice that would throw opponents off their guard. Swampert and Dragonite shared few weaknesses, and also meshed well with the rest of the team. Dragonite would get rid of the opposing leads, Swampert would set up Stealth Rock.

I tested Flygon, Jirachi, Togekiss, and Heatran - all scarfed - in the remaining slot of the team to handle threats to the other five. Heatran worked out the best.

Team adjustments, a custom-made Machamp was added in place of Dragonite to do its job better. As usage of Stealth Rock dropped due to the quick loss of Swampert in battles, and I continued to win, I discovered that I didn't really need Stealth Rock. As Swampert barely got to do anything, I added Gyarados in its place. A few other fairly minor changes are made.

JU-DOH the Machamp (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Att/232 Def/16 SpD/10 Spe
Adamant nature (+Att, -SpA)
- Dynamicpunch
- Bullet Punch
- Payback
- Substitute


Machamp acts as an Anti-Lead, but works somewhat differently. With this set, the idea is basically to Sub up on Stealth Rock, hit the opposing lead for as hard as possible, then use Bullet Punch for the KO. If the opposing lead will just kill it or wall it, Swampert is called in. This Machamp is designed to be able to survive a hit from Breloom's Focus Punch if a Substitute has not yet been put up. Furthermore, it can nearly OHKO with DynamicPunch. It also 2HKOs Rotom-A. As a lead, its only issues have been smart opponents, Slowbro, Heatran, or opposing Machamp (those last two are merely because Heatran's Overheat OHKOs and Machamp can nullify the confusion with Lum Berry and usually critical hits for an OHKO).

ANGER the Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP/252 Att/170 Spe
Jolly nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Bounce


Gyarados was added to actually make use of this team slot. While it, like Metagross, almost never gets to use its setup move, the results are explosive if it is pulled off successfully. Waterfall and Stone Edge provide fairly nice coverage, Bounce adds power and paralysis.

BRAINIAC the Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/232 Att/12 Def/14 Spe
Adamant nature (+Att, -SpA)
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt


Metagross comes in and uses Stealth Rock as they switch. I then proceed to switch out of their Metagross counter and counter it. When this comes in later, nobody will expect the Choice Band. Double STAB from Zen Headbutt and Meteor Mash allow for maximum power, Earthquake adds more coverage.

HEALTH the Shaymin @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 32 HP/252 SpA/226 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Att)
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earth Power
- Rest


Nobody expects Shaymin. This thing easily trounces Celebi in terms of offense. Seed Flare is a move that too many people forget about, and it usually leads to an OHKO. Hidden Power Fire gets rid of the Scizors that try to U-Turn me, forgetting that I have Base 100 Speed. Rest, followed by switching, results in a perfectly healthy Shaymin to come back in again, so the recoil from Life Orb only matters when it results in a draw between two Pokemon (usually with Sandstorm adding more damage in there). However, Shaymin is badly hurt by forcibly losing all speed ties against Base 100s because it needs a Speed IV of 30 to have Hidden Power Fire.

BREEZE the Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 172 HP/120 SpA/218 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe, -Att)
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]


Suicune's bulk is amazing - it's even managed to survive a Gyarados' Earthquake after 3 Dragon Dances. Unfortunately, nobody lets it do its job, Suicune is usually torn apart and tossed aside by Rotom-A or Paralysis messing up its moves. Another problem is Pseudo Hazers and opposing Suicune. Those two things stop it from getting anywhere.

INCINERATE the Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 6 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Naive nature (+Spe, -SpD)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Ice]


Heatran gets me some handy KOs, but it's also seen as an opportunity by most opponents I've faced. As everyone should know, it's somewhat cruel to Paralyze a Scarfed Pokemon, as it is to bring something in that will take almost nothing from its moves (I'm looking at you, Blissey!). It typically dies to Blissey, Snorlax, Breloom with its sub already up, Rotom-A, and a handful of other things.

• Leftovers on Metagross was changed to Lum Berry.
• Dragonite was replaced by a Machamp.
• Lum Berry on Metagross was changed to Life Orb.
• Swampert was replaced by Gyarados.
• Gyarados was changed to a more offensive variant.
• Metagross was changed to a wierd version of the Choice Band variant.

 

[cayr]

i would suggest hp ice on your shaymin as it would be a little more effective, tough you would lose the kill on scizor, and a lum berry would work more effective if you're planning on using metagross as a sweeper but if you use him as a semi-wall then keep lefties, good team

 

[burnpsy]

i would suggest hp ice on your shaymin as it would be a little more effective, tough you would lose the kill on scizor, and a lum berry would work more effective if you're planning on using metagross as a sweeper but if you use him as a semi-wall then keep lefties, good team

If Shaymin could actually survive a hit from anything significant that's weak to HP Ice that's not weak to HP Fire, I'd agree. Seeing as that's not the case...

Anyways, I'll add Lum Berry Immediately.

 

[gaburu]

The best solution to your 5 threats would probably be a mix Infernape. I would suggest it over Metagross as you dont seem too thrilled about it. With that, you may want to switch to an even bulkier Suicune set so that Mence doesn't give you troubles.

Another strategy would be to drop Swampert for Infernape (still mixed) and change Metagross to a bulkier stealth rock set (which firms your positions against Dragons).

I hope that helps.

 

[cmurph]

If Shaymin could actually survive a hit from anything significant that's weak to HP Ice that's not weak to HP Fire, I'd agree. Seeing as that's not the case...

Anyways, I'll add Lum Berry Immediately.

you mean like Salamence, Dragonite, Zapdos or Flygon? Having used Shaymin extensively, hp ice is the better option IMO. HP Fire has its merits though. Hp Ice's biggest flaw is that it allows free spikes for skarm

 

[burnpsy]

The best solution to your 5 threats would probably be a mix Infernape. I would suggest it over Metagross as you dont seem too thrilled about it. With that, you may want to switch to an even bulkier Suicune set so that Mence doesn't give you troubles.

Another strategy would be to drop Swampert for Infernape (still mixed) and change Metagross to a bulkier stealth rock set (which firms your positions against Dragons).

I hope that helps.

Actually, Infernape would completely ruin the team's flow. In case you couldn't tell, everything in here has some bulk, along with resistances that compliments something else on the team. While Infernape has similarities to Metagross in this department, Infernape can only come in when something dies. Unfortunately, that isn't good enough.

Also, it can't come in on Breloom. Breloom will sub up on the switch and Focus Punch it out, or just put it to sleep. Still, a Fighting-type Pokemon with a super-effective move to use on Breloom appears to be the right idea.

Looking around - would an Attacking Lead Machamp make sense? It could go in Dragonite's place, do the same job, and would laugh at Spore due to Lum Berry as it proceeds to use DynamicPunch (which does about the same as Ice Punch in this case) to take out the Breloom. Of course, there's a problem there in the form of Breloom's superior Speed... So perhaps one with Substitute? I dunno, it would probably be better than Infernape in this team.

What sort of more defensive Suicune were you thinking of?

you mean like Salamence, Dragonite, Zapdos or Flygon? Having used Shaymin extensively, hp ice is the better option IMO. HP Fire has its merits though. Hp Ice's biggest flaw is that it allows free spikes for skarm

*runs calculations*

Shaymin loses half its HP at most on Flygon, that much is true, but Salamence kills it, as does Dragonite. It loses 60% on Zapdos.

However, none of those are issues to the team - and Skarmory is. I can't allow Skarmory to switch in safely on so many Pokemon.

 

[gaburu]

I kinda figured the bulky theme based on your title, but I didn't think it was a restriction, sorry. Well, how about a bulky taunt Gyrados? It can take a hit or two from Infernape and shut down walls like Blissey with taunt(as well as Breeloom). Afterthought:sub charge beam Lanturn? Sets up on your threats(especially Rotom), can switchhin for Suicune, etc.

If that doesn't seem like a good enough dea , then I only have a minor contribution. Machamp does seem like a better option as Shaymin/Swampert can come in on other Swampert leads/Metagross that Machamp can't handle. If substitute doesn't work, how about encore? This forces Breeloom to switch and can give you time to handle a setup pokemon.

Again, sorry about the previous suggestion.

 

[burnpsy]

I kinda figured the bulky theme based on your title, but I didn't think it was a restriction, sorry. Well, how about a bulky taunt Gyrados? It can take a hit or two from Infernape and shut down walls like Blissey with taunt(as well as Breeloom). Afterthought:sub charge beam Lanturn? Sets up on your threats(especially Rotom), can switchhin for Suicune, etc.

If that doesn't seem like a good enough dea , then I only have a minor contribution. Machamp does seem like a better option as Shaymin/Swampert can come in on other Swampert leads/Metagross that Machamp can't handle. If substitute doesn't work, how about encore? This forces Breeloom to switch and can give you time to handle a setup pokemon.

Again, sorry about the previous suggestion.

It was never a restriction - I was just saying that Infernape would mess with team synergy. The team relies on its bulk to switch into oncoming threats, rather than revenge killing threats. Infernape can't switch into anything.

Anyways, I just tested a somewhat different Machamp as a lead in place of Dragonite. It's designed to do the same job as Dragonite, but it has less problems. Notably, adding it made Stealth Rock fairly unnecessary. Its main problems were critical hits and Trick. I also designed it to be able to take more than one Focus Punch from Breloom after Stealth Rock (most Machamp cannot manage this). I'm adding it to the opening post, it beats Dragonite for that job in any case - as it usually handles half of the enemy team on its own.

Lanturn dies to Breloom's Seed Bomb, Gyarados could work...

 

[Press To Play]

I would suggest Life Orb instead of Lum Berry on Agiligross for two reasons. First, without LO, Gross can't touch most pokes (with LO, you have a decent chance at 2HKOing a Crocune factoring SS and SR). Second, you will still fail to 2HKO Defensive Rotom, even without the burn. Besides, you can easily switch to Heatran to grab a FF Boost or go to Swampert for TWs.

Good luck with the team. :)

 

[burnpsy]

Messed with the team somewhat, using all of the suggestions.

 

[ToF]

Kinda Skarmory + Blissey weak team. Machamp can beat that core, but often its paired with Rotom-H and Gyarados, which means you're not doing much. In terms of beating that core, I'd suggest running Wish + Calm Mind Jirachi over Metagross. You have enough of a physical presence on this team with Gyarados, and of course Lead Machamp, so I think Jirachi would help patch up a few weaknesses with common stall teams. Jirachi also solves your issue of defensive Rotom-A walling half of this team, as it rarely runs Overheat and Thunderbolt + Will-O-Wisp are set-up fodder for CM Jirachi.

You are Breloom weak as well as someone mentioned, and after it Spore's something, its gonna get a kill guaranteed. I suggest running offensive Celebi instead of Shaymin on this team. You lose out on Seed Flare and the possible special defense drops but gain Leaf Storm and instant recovery in the form of Recover. Celebi's typing will help this team out more, being Grass / Psychic, as opposed to the just Grass Shaymin.

Finally, you don't have a Stealth Rocker on this team! It's necessary for you to slot Stealth Rock somewhere in order to keep this team competitive. I'd say your only slot is looking like Heatran, so slot it over HP Grass probably. Celebi can switch into all bulky Waters anyway and threaten a KO with Leaf Storm. Since Heatran forces a lot of switches, setting up Stealth Rock shouldn't be a problem.

 

[greg3064]

Use SubTran instead: you'll find that it deals with a lot of Heatran's common switch-ins.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Toxic

By bringing it in and Substituting on the switch, you can deal with whatever is in front of you individually. Opposing Heatran looking for a Fire boost can be hit with Earth Power. Many bulky Pokemon can be hit with Toxic. With a Sub up, some Blissey varieties cannot do anything to Heatran, and can't even stay in to wall you due to Toxic.

Besides that... I think you could use a Ground-type in there as Paralysis seems to give you some problems. Using a lead that can get up SR would also be good as it helps sweeping a lot.

I use a CB Metagross with MM / BP / EQ / Explosion. What it lacks in speed it makes up for in sheer power, and I can say from experience that mine really doesn't get statused much. It also doesn't mind Thunder Wave as much anyway. If you get an Agility and Rotom switches in, it pretty much walls you, so you have to switch out or risk getting statused. You'll essentially have done nothing but accumulate SR damage and inform your opponent. With CB Gross you could switch to Shaymin for example, take the status, and deal with Rotom.

If you really like AgiliGross, you need Stealth Rock. AgiliGross is fast and Gross has a very high base attack... but remember that the attacks are unboosted besides Life Orb, so it isn't really meant to OHKO everything like most sweepers. It's mostly a finisher.

 

[Doctor Who?]

Why aren't you running Lum on Metagross? You said that status ruins your sweep a lot. Additionally, Metagross sets an agility against a strong attack by using its bulk and this works better in most cases than causing switches, so if you set up on, say, Zapdos' Heat Wave (58.4% - 68.7%) or Rotoms Overheat (69.3% - 82.1%) then you have a little health left to sweep. It doesn't work when you use Life Orb because you run out of HP before you finish your opponent off. As I said Metagross gets a sweep from setting up on counters and because of natural bulk the only things that can trouble its sweeps are repeated hits from t-bolt and status.

I also thought that you could benefit more if you used Zen Headbutt for more neutral coverage on more opponents, you also have to rely less on Meteor Mash to hit pokemon like weakened Salamence, which is unreliable due to a relatively low accuracy rate. You don't need Thunderpunch because I think Rotom-A is a more common switch in to Metagross.

Additionally, I think Twist of Fate's suggestions to add SR on Heatran is worth the change because Metagross needs sr as another poster stated because it isn't boosting its attack so it needs he support to help it take out more pokemon, especially if you take my suggestion and run Zen Headbutt, so Gyarados won't still be around when Metagross sweeps.

 

[burnpsy]

Kinda Skarmory + Blissey weak team. Machamp can beat that core, but often its paired with Rotom-H and Gyarados, which means you're not doing much. In terms of beating that core, I'd suggest running Wish + Calm Mind Jirachi over Metagross. You have enough of a physical presence on this team with Gyarados, and of course Lead Machamp, so I think Jirachi would help patch up a few weaknesses with common stall teams. Jirachi also solves your issue of defensive Rotom-A walling half of this team, as it rarely runs Overheat and Thunderbolt + Will-O-Wisp are set-up fodder for CM Jirachi.

Machamp 2HKOs standard Rotom-H. Gyarados is met with a DynamicPunch as it comes in, and I exploit the confusion to give a safer switch-in to Gyarados or Suicune to handle it.

Machamp and Gyarados don't make up enough of a physical presence - both are either out of the battle or severely weakened by the time someone brings in Blissey. This is why I don't think adding a fourth special-based attacker would be a smart idea here.

You are Breloom weak as well as someone mentioned, and after it Spore's something, its gonna get a kill guaranteed. I suggest running offensive Celebi instead of Shaymin on this team. You lose out on Seed Flare and the possible special defense drops but gain Leaf Storm and instant recovery in the form of Recover. Celebi's typing will help this team out more, being Grass / Psychic, as opposed to the just Grass Shaymin.

While a few very obvious things make me reluctant to do it, I agree with you.

Finally, you don't have a Stealth Rocker on this team! It's necessary for you to slot Stealth Rock somewhere in order to keep this team competitive. I'd say your only slot is looking like Heatran, so slot it over HP Grass probably. Celebi can switch into all bulky Waters anyway and threaten a KO with Leaf Storm. Since Heatran forces a lot of switches, setting up Stealth Rock shouldn't be a problem.

I never seriously needed Stealth Rock in here, but I didn't need HP Grass aside from getting rid of random Swamperts either, so fine. However, the suggestion to change to SubTran is also very tempting - and I'd actually prefer the below changes, as something just seems off about Stealth Rock on a Scarfer. Admittedly, I should change the variant yo stop people from taking advantage of the Scarf. This would leave no room for Stealth Rock...

Use SubTran instead: you'll find that it deals with a lot of Heatran's common switch-ins.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Toxic

By bringing it in and Substituting on the switch, you can deal with whatever is in front of you individually. Opposing Heatran looking for a Fire boost can be hit with Earth Power. Many bulky Pokemon can be hit with Toxic. With a Sub up, some Blissey varieties cannot do anything to Heatran, and can't even stay in to wall you due to Toxic.

It makes sense. I like how it actually handles a relevant team issue.

Besides that... I think you could use a Ground-type in there as Paralysis seems to give you some problems. Using a lead that can get up SR would also be good as it helps sweeping a lot.

Shaymin has acted surprisingly well as a T-Wave sponge. Natural Cure means that it doesn't care.

I use a CB Metagross with MM / BP / EQ / Explosion. What it lacks in speed it makes up for in sheer power, and I can say from experience that mine really doesn't get statused much. It also doesn't mind Thunder Wave as much anyway. If you get an Agility and Rotom switches in, it pretty much walls you, so you have to switch out or risk getting statused. You'll essentially have done nothing but accumulate SR damage and inform your opponent. With CB Gross you could switch to Shaymin for example, take the status, and deal with Rotom.

If you really like AgiliGross, you need Stealth Rock. AgiliGross is fast and Gross has a very high base attack... but remember that the attacks are unboosted besides Life Orb, so it isn't really meant to OHKO everything like most sweepers. It's mostly a finisher.

Why aren't you running Lum on Metagross? You said that status ruins your sweep a lot. Additionally, Metagross sets an agility against a strong attack by using its bulk and this works better in most cases than causing switches, so if you set up on, say, Zapdos' Heat Wave (58.4% - 68.7%) or Rotoms Overheat (69.3% - 82.1%) then you have a little health left to sweep. It doesn't work when you use Life Orb because you run out of HP before you finish your opponent off. As I said Metagross gets a sweep from setting up on counters and because of natural bulk the only things that can trouble its sweeps are repeated hits from t-bolt and status.

I also thought that you could benefit more if you used Zen Headbutt for more neutral coverage on more opponents, you also have to rely less on Meteor Mash to hit pokemon like weakened Salamence, which is unreliable due to a relatively low accuracy rate. You don't need Thunderpunch because I think Rotom-A is a more common switch in to Metagross.

Additionally, I think Twist of Fate's suggestions to add SR on Heatran is worth the change because Metagross needs sr as another poster stated because it isn't boosting its attack so it needs he support to help it take out more pokemon, especially if you take my suggestion and run Zen Headbutt, so Gyarados won't still be around when Metagross sweeps.

Most of the changes everyone has been suggesting concerns Metagross. From what I gather and from what I gather from what I've tried and what has been suggested, I either change my variant, mess with the item in vein, forcibly add Stealth Rock, or remove it altogether. So here's an idea:

The complete removal of it for a special-based Jirachi won't work out too well because of Blissey and my other Physical stuff getting removed too fast. Choice Band would give the power to handle most threats, and common switch-ins for Metagross can be handled by other members of my team. So I ask, what do you people think of this?

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/236 Att/12 Def/10 Spe
Adamant nature (+Att, -SpA)
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt/Trick

Switch it into something that Metagross will usually scare out. Use Stealth Rock immediately as the opponent switches to their Metagross counter, then switch to this team's counter to it. Almost any opponent will be completely confused when it comes in later and does more damage than they thought. Furthermore, Zen Headbutt and Trick stop Rotom-H from walling it later if that's their counter, and Zen Headbutt also handles Breloom - another team issue. Breloom needs two hits on Metagross with Focus Punch to handle Metagross. Even if it's behind the Substitute, the first Focus Punch will deal a chunk of damage, but the second one will either scare it out or get rid of it - as Zen Headbutt will always OHKO Breloom, even if it has Reflect up or an Acid Armor Baton Passed - both of which are really rare anyways. Blissey also stands no chance against this set. The only team threats that aren't covered by this are Skarmory and Snorlax.

What do you people think of that idea? Does it work or not?

 

[Aeolian]

two things: ice punch on metagross over thunderpunch
AND
watch out for starmie..

 

[greg3064]

That Metagross does look pretty effective and original, and people won't expect it. I think it'd be worth trying out. I would go Zen Headbutt over Trick because Rotom can occasionally be Scarfed. Giving it a Band would make it less dangerous, but once you get out of there you would have no effective way to deal with it. Zen is also a bit better for Breloom.

STAB Bullet Punch is a very nice utility to have on CB Gross, since this team really isn't that fast, especially if you opt to use SubTran. Machamp seems to be working well for you, but finding a lead that can put up SR would give that prospective CB Gross some revenging potential, which I think you could benefit from.

Last thing... you said Gyarados doesn't often get to set up. You could go for a less bulky, Jolly variant. If it can force something out, then you get a DD and it will outspeed things like Timid Jolteon that otherwise would threaten the bulky variant. But it loses the ability to handle Skarm as it can be phazed. It's worth a try to see how you like it. BulkyGyara definitely can sweep, but it needs 2 DDs to do so effectively.

 

[burnpsy]

I tried changing Gyarados to an offensive variant, making Metagross into the wierd CB variant I mentioned, changing to Celebi, and chainging Heatran to SubTran.

Main problem: Slowbro.
Other issues: Zapdos, Heracross, Pursuit users, Flygon, anything with U-Turn.

SubTran only made Heatran slight more effective. Celebi kept dying to Bug and Dark moves, among other things. Slowbro is like a brick wall.

 

[burnpsy]

Edited the thread with the team as it currently stands. A lot of the new problems were stopped by going back to Shaymin.