Right, well I've been talking about revenge killing applications. In those situations, you wouldn't be switching into those moves. The only time you would switch it in that isn't for revenge killing would be to absorb a fighting move. And yeah, they do seem decently bulky, but remember that this thing has a monstrous SpA stat, and will outspeed them all with a scarf, assuming it is in the game. Again, this is all hypothetical, but hey, what isn't in threads like these?
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Dragons of Generation 5
- Thread starter Aerrow
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True...but if you've revenged then that means that they've already done their job, and it ends up being a mere 1 for 1 trade.
Plus, Scarf puts a real damper on Shandaraa's abilities, I feel. I realize that there is a significantly lower focus on Stealth Rock this gen, but the fact still stands that you are using a Stealth Rock weak scarfer, and that it is additionally weak to Earthquake, Surf, and Pursuit. I think the positives and negatives balance each other well.
I'd rather do a 1-for-1 than a 5-for-1. A revenge killer is necessary to stop sweepers before they actually get to sweep your team, so they haven't really done their job at all, they've only taken out 1 Pokemon. And mind explaining why you feel a Scarf would put a damper on its abilities? My first thought upon seeing it's typing and stats was "MAN, this thing would dominate as a Scarfed revenge killer!" and after we found out that its Dream World ability is Shadow Tag, that feeling increased even more since it guarantees that the target doesn't get to escape.
Edit: Oh, and yeah, it is entry hazard weak, but spin support will be even better in this game and there seems to be less emphasis on entry hazards this gen anyways, so we'll see. Again, all hypothetical.
I'm pretty sure he does explain why he think scarf would put a damper on his abilities; he clearl;y states that he thinks being a scarfer weak to pursuit and stealth rock is bad, which it is. Shandaraa has a lot of other potential uses...
Right, but we already know entry hazards are going to be much less common this gen, and so Pursuit is really the only true downside. Didn't stop Gengar or Starmie as revenge killers. I would gladly take that in exchange for a Dugtrio with higher attacking stats (and well, defending stats too...), more speed (with a Scarf on compared to Trio's usual band), better trapping ability, and better STAB. And it likely has access to Trick too, which makes it that much more useful. Almost every pokemon has "a lot of other potential uses" but that doesn't mean that certain sets don't outshine the others.
While Ononokusu is very interesting with that huge attack, I am not sure it will actually be better than what we already have.
As a DDer, Salamence has more bulk with Intimidate + better resistances/immunities + better defenses. Ononokusu isn't a glass cannon, but it isn't exactly taking neutral hits that great, especially given the big boost in power seemingly everything received this generation. Salamence can still switch in on physical attacks and ground moves especially to get its dance off. In terms of power, Ononokusu has the edge, but not by that much it has <10% higher attack than Mence, I haven't run calcs or anything but its Jolly attack is less than Mence running Adamant, not exactly game changing it would seem.
Ononokusu does lack a 4x Ice weakness and a weakness to stealth rock (if it still exists), which is a significant advantage, but its frailty evens the playing field in that respect (it will be interesting to see if roost is a tutor, giving Mence another point).
Then of course, there is the speed argument. Mence has that base 100 speed that is perhaps it's biggest advantage over Ononokusu. Ononokusu will have to deal with being outsped by base 100 Scarfers (if scarf still exists) after a DD. Mence can at least tie with them.
As an SDer, unless it gets a powerful priority move, I don't see it having much over Chomp. It lacks dual STAB that Chomp gets, less bulk, no SR or SS resistance. Yes it has more power and yes it has no Ice weakness, but those do not stop it from being outclasses as an SDer by Chomp and his 102 base speed.
Overall I just think that the Ononokusu hype is a bit much. Yes I just compared it to two pokemon that broke the Gen 4 metagame, but this is a completely new ballgame, Ononokusu seems to be getting Rampardos treatment because of that attack stat, I don't think it will suck like Rampardos, but it won't be too powerful either.
(I realize this is all subject to change as it could have access to some base 80 power dragon type priority move or something that will shit over the rest of the metagame that we have not discovered yet, but for now these are my thoughts).
As a DDer, Salamence has more bulk with Intimidate + better resistances/immunities + better defenses. Ononokusu isn't a glass cannon, but it isn't exactly taking neutral hits that great, especially given the big boost in power seemingly everything received this generation. Salamence can still switch in on physical attacks and ground moves especially to get its dance off. In terms of power, Ononokusu has the edge, but not by that much it has <10% higher attack than Mence, I haven't run calcs or anything but its Jolly attack is less than Mence running Adamant, not exactly game changing it would seem.
Ononokusu does lack a 4x Ice weakness and a weakness to stealth rock (if it still exists), which is a significant advantage, but its frailty evens the playing field in that respect (it will be interesting to see if roost is a tutor, giving Mence another point).
Then of course, there is the speed argument. Mence has that base 100 speed that is perhaps it's biggest advantage over Ononokusu. Ononokusu will have to deal with being outsped by base 100 Scarfers (if scarf still exists) after a DD. Mence can at least tie with them.
As an SDer, unless it gets a powerful priority move, I don't see it having much over Chomp. It lacks dual STAB that Chomp gets, less bulk, no SR or SS resistance. Yes it has more power and yes it has no Ice weakness, but those do not stop it from being outclasses as an SDer by Chomp and his 102 base speed.
Overall I just think that the Ononokusu hype is a bit much. Yes I just compared it to two pokemon that broke the Gen 4 metagame, but this is a completely new ballgame, Ononokusu seems to be getting Rampardos treatment because of that attack stat, I don't think it will suck like Rampardos, but it won't be too powerful either.
(I realize this is all subject to change as it could have access to some base 80 power dragon type priority move or something that will shit over the rest of the metagame that we have not discovered yet, but for now these are my thoughts).
Im not sure if it has been mentioned buuuuuut:
Ononokusu is basically unstoppable, with DD or SD to pick (destroy stall harder or offense, you pick) its going to be one hell of a pain in the ass to take it down. Outrage + EQ (I read earlier here it gets it?) with Mold Breaker beats basically everything, the exception being Skarmory, who will get smacked by a Dragon Tail, forcing it to take SR, +1 60BP STAB LO Damage, SR again, and possibly a double +1 Outrage if it decides to switch in again.
Yeah, doesnt seem easy to beat at all.
Ononokusu is basically unstoppable, with DD or SD to pick (destroy stall harder or offense, you pick) its going to be one hell of a pain in the ass to take it down. Outrage + EQ (I read earlier here it gets it?) with Mold Breaker beats basically everything, the exception being Skarmory, who will get smacked by a Dragon Tail, forcing it to take SR, +1 60BP STAB LO Damage, SR again, and possibly a double +1 Outrage if it decides to switch in again.
Yeah, doesnt seem easy to beat at all.
i think this dragon is
# 646: Kyuremu (Dragon/ Ice)
125/ 130/ 90/ 130/ 90/ 95
Pressure
like giratinna,rayquaza the one who stops the fight between the other 2 legends
# 646: Kyuremu (Dragon/ Ice)
125/ 130/ 90/ 130/ 90/ 95
Pressure
like giratinna,rayquaza the one who stops the fight between the other 2 legends
I don't know what this crap is about everyone insisting it needs a fire type attack, when all it needs is Outrage+Earthquake, same as Chomp. Skarmory is the ONLY steel that can handle it thanks to mold breaker, and even then all it can do is phaze it away in fear as it takes masive damage and a potential 2HKO. Same deal with the inability to go mixed. Once again, Garchomp never needed to go mixed, it's "Chain Chomp" set was little more than a footnote compared to the other Physical sets. Why should the specialized offensive stats be an issue for this monster?
The main thing that really cripples it is the speed. Basically all the dangerous Dragon Types outspeed it by just a few irritating points, meaning they can easily revenge it with a Scarf as it Dragon Dances. I predict Scarf Chomp in particular will become a premier revenge killer to keep in check all the dangerous dragons, DDers, and other threats that it conveniently outspeeds, not to mention abusing all the SS Teams that will likely be popular.
I think Haban berry could potentially be a great item choice for Onono. DD as the opponent switches in their Dragon Type Revenge Killer/check, DD again as Haban activates and you survive with potential HP investment, then maul things with +2 Atk/Spd. That way you can even run Adamant with some Bulk.
haunter
Banned deucer.
The funny thing about Ononokuso is that with an adamant Life Orb +2 Outrage it can hit the standard Skarmory for 54.5% - 64.4%, while the specially defensive variant takes 62.0% - 73.4%. Quite impressive if you ask me. This basically means that Skarmory needs to be almost at full health to have a chance to roar it out. If the dragon learns fire fang the standard spiker Skarmory takes 79.6% - 94.0% after a SD and the specially defensive variant 90.4% - 106.6%. So it seems that Skarm is not really a good Ononokuso counter.
Your forgetting Ono is also carrying moldbreaker, and an atk score that is only 3 points lower then rayquaza, while still being faster then it. After one DD, it becomes monsterous. With just Outrage, and EQ, it can cover a majority of it's problems just fine. Skarmory gets hit for huge damage as already posted, and im sure others aren't gonna want to come in on a Ono with just one DD (let alone 2 more then likely if caught on the switch).
Your right about it being an inferior SD'er compared to Chomp, but have you considered the possibility of it also being scarfed like chomp? Speaking of scarfers, 9 times out of 10 any DD'er outside of mence need atleast two or three to stop some standards, but where mence's weakness may have caused it problems, Ono's mono dragon type gives it a slighty better defensive typing against those scarfers. Mence did have an advantage of avoiding ground attacks, but conversly, Ono has just enough maneurvability to get it's one DD that it'll need, and sweep probably anything outside of common dragon revengers (but who's to say). Ono is basically a physical based Rayquaza with out the ability to avoid ground attacks, and air lock, but capable of hitting everything with just two attacks (and hit hard for that matter).
Ononokuso and Kyuremuis heading straight up to Ubers if nothing can wall it in OU. If they somehow stay, Scizor usage will spike as technician bullet punch will be one of the only few checks for these guys. Scarf Sazando can similarly check these guys as it outruns +1 ononokuso by one base point. Seriously if these dragons stay in OU, then Garchomp and Salamence should come back down as they are all roughly the same.
Ononokuso looks seriously cool. Its not as fast as Garchomp however its still hitting very hard. Not to mention it could just run Haban (just like Yache Chomp) to let it survive a dragon attack and then deliver a KO.
I have a proposal. Since the main issue of Ononokosu is it's defences, it might make a great anti-lead IF outrage really gets that rumoured buff of stopping and not confusing the user if it is "resisted". It could begin the battle by using taunt on the lead, then starting an outrage. If the opponent swaps in a steel type and outrage stops, Ono isn't confused and can fry the steel type with (insert physical fire move).
I know there are loopholes, but it's certainly viable in theory. That way it can still be useful without letting it's defences fail it too much.
EDIT: anyone else realized that it's pre-evolution, Onondo overtakes shelgon as the best outrage user in UU, with 117 attack and 67 speed?
EDIT*2: the basic form of Ono, Kibago is also the best outrage in Little cup.
I know there are loopholes, but it's certainly viable in theory. That way it can still be useful without letting it's defences fail it too much.
EDIT: anyone else realized that it's pre-evolution, Onondo overtakes shelgon as the best outrage user in UU, with 117 attack and 67 speed?
EDIT*2: the basic form of Ono, Kibago is also the best outrage in Little cup.
About Sazando and stat boosting moves, we have to see the TM list to be sure.
Because there are boosting moves among the TMs (Cheer Up, Bulk Up etc.) that it could pick up.
Ononokusu may be overhyped but in terms of destructive output it rivals Rayquaza on the physical side.
I think it's the kind of Pokemon that will be able to sweep reliably once certain checks are removed.
Sazando is a bit more deceptive because no really bloated stat jumps out.
But it's ability, typing and stat distribution leaves it with no glaring weakness at all plus the ability to use physical and special moves.
This one's usefulness will hinge on movepool but it has the foundations of a great Pokemon.
Because there are boosting moves among the TMs (Cheer Up, Bulk Up etc.) that it could pick up.
Ononokusu may be overhyped but in terms of destructive output it rivals Rayquaza on the physical side.
I think it's the kind of Pokemon that will be able to sweep reliably once certain checks are removed.
Sazando is a bit more deceptive because no really bloated stat jumps out.
But it's ability, typing and stat distribution leaves it with no glaring weakness at all plus the ability to use physical and special moves.
This one's usefulness will hinge on movepool but it has the foundations of a great Pokemon.
It will still have an attack of 400+, about 550 with Rivalry.
How do you guys think these new dragons will affect dragonite and flygon? I think flygon is still viable because it has the 100 base speed to keep its revenge killing viability. I don't really know how dragonite will be affected, the new pseudo is bulky, but takes the special side still giving dragonite some hope as a physical bulky dragon
haunter
Banned deucer.
Hopefully Flygon will get some new toy to work with (dragon dance would be ideal) so it could remain a stable OU Pkm. Dragonite's fate really depends on the impact of the new powerhouses dragons on the metagame. Also, since we're probably going to allow both Garchomp and Salamence in the early stages of Gen V metagame, Dragonite may not be used that much at the beginning.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Ononokusu is actually not that good. In fact, it's pretty dreadful. It's frail, slower than Mence, slower than Chomp, doesn't have the cool resistances of Mence / Sazando / Latias, and doesn't get STAB EQ or a Rock resist like Chomp.
What would you ever want to use it for which it would do better at than one of the other four aforementioned Dragons?
What would you ever want to use it for which it would do better at than one of the other four aforementioned Dragons?
I would only use it as a CBer because its too slow even after a DD. If it had 3 more base speed, it would be a totally different story.