No they weren't. I never said nor implied that. Rank would never randomly switch back into a +1 Latas.
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Reuniclus
- Thread starter Pratty
- Start date
Stop arguing with masterful guys. you're wasting your time, and he's going to get himself banned.
I imagine that latias and reuniclus would CM up alongside each other, and roar/psycho shock randomly. If I ran roar, I'd use timid 252 bulky CM, dragon pulse and recover. Reuniclus is usually played mid/late game right? If latias with multiple boosts roars it out, It'd sweep the rest of the team including reuniclus, as without any defensive boosts, it's KOed.
I imagine that latias and reuniclus would CM up alongside each other, and roar/psycho shock randomly. If I ran roar, I'd use timid 252 bulky CM, dragon pulse and recover. Reuniclus is usually played mid/late game right? If latias with multiple boosts roars it out, It'd sweep the rest of the team including reuniclus, as without any defensive boosts, it's KOed.
Lolwut?
I don't know why a Rank wouldbe CMing beside a Latias, when it knows it will likely be Roared out. And Latias can get at most 1 (or possibly 2) CMs, before Rank will be doing like 70%, making Latias even more easily revenged. And just because I have received 2 warnings does not mean my points don't stand, nor does it mean that I don't know what I'm talking about. If you really want to convince yourself that that IS true, that's your problem
That's not what I implied. I implied that your argumentative, bull-headed, belligerent, annoying and aggressive discussion style is not appropriate. I think that you do know what you're talking about more often than not, but when you antagonize people as much as you do, they're bound to push back. If you behaved in a more civilized manner, people would look upon you in a much more favourable light.
You've received two warnings so far, but haven't changed your behaviour. I'm sick of seeing every second thread in this forum littered with your pathetic fucking pandering. You're not debating life or death, and you can discuss competitive pokemon without resorting to flaming stubbornly like you're out to prove something.
I apologize if I seem like I'm flaming, but it becomes irritating hearing arguments repeated incessantly without any backing nor refutation of others' points. Secondly, I'm not perfect, but my arguments still stand. I do believe this is still a discussion about Reuniclus
Wow. Lot of responces posted. Anyway, a lot of you have been implying that I don't know what I'm talking about or that I'm too stubborn to accept change, so I'd like to clarify. I have spent around 50 hours on Pokemon online testing and tweaking ideas that people have given me or that I have come up with that might beat Renuiculus. I have tested Spiritomb, Wobbuffet, Skill Swap Chansey, Worry Seed, Scizor, Trick, Perish Song. I have tested them because aside from Rankurusu, Heavy Stall IS viable in this metagame. You are yet to come up with a single other Pokemon which is even remotely as dangerous as mister Rank. And all of them have failed. All of them have failed because in order to have a good chance of winning against Rankurusu, most of them must be in good condition with near-full health - they are a dead weight until Rank is sent out, effectively. They all work in theory, but I have yet to see them work In Reality. This is my real complaint. Maybe I wasn't clear before, and I'm sorry about that. If a Pokemon was released that was so good against offense it forced them to use say, Lickylicky, it would be banned very quickly. You can try to dispute this, but the fact is, it's true. But because from what I have seen, most of you are not Stall players, things are a little more difficult. Yes, stall CAN beat Rankurusu. But the lengths it most go to to do so are crippling to the rest of the team.
[Also, In case I haven't made this clear, the 'this would lead to banning everything that troubles stall' argument is rubbish. There is no other Pokemon that gives stall this much trouble. Also, other troublesome Pokemon can be defeated indirectly through swart switching and entry hazards, sometimes combined with other forms of passive damage. This does not apply to Rankurusu.]
[Also, In case I haven't made this clear, the 'this would lead to banning everything that troubles stall' argument is rubbish. There is no other Pokemon that gives stall this much trouble. Also, other troublesome Pokemon can be defeated indirectly through swart switching and entry hazards, sometimes combined with other forms of passive damage. This does not apply to Rankurusu.]
I could be wrong, but aren't all Reuniclus with the ability to sweep stall teams put to a full stop from Taunt, a staple on stall teams?
Every team is different. I offered to show you pokemon other than rankurusu that would also tear your 6 wall team apart if you gave me your full moveset/EVs. You haven't so I can't.
I also seriously doubt you've tested all those things against rankurusu in a single day and they all failed. Particularly stuff like spiritomb are hard counters as the standard CM rankurusu can't even touch it. So either you're just making stuff up or you just don't know how to use said counters.
I also seriously doubt you've tested all those things against rankurusu in a single day and they all failed. Particularly stuff like spiritomb are hard counters as the standard CM rankurusu can't even touch it. So either you're just making stuff up or you just don't know how to use said counters.
I don't understand all the fuss about Reuniclus as it has several hard counters in Scizor, Shubarugo and Spiritomb. CB Shubarugo is excellent as it "outpseeds" TR variants, has nice defenses and also has access to a Megahorn even more powerful than Heracross', which can severely dent anything that Reuniclus switches out into anyway. Spiritomb is able to completely shut down most Reuniclus' out there - CB Spiritomb makes an excellent choice as Pursuit hurts like hell after switching out (about 70% to max/max Reuniclus I believe), and Rankurusu always fears being Tricked. In the same sense, Sableye can do the same and even has a priority Taunt to boot (that is if you're playing DW).
So what if one of these three 'mon is placed into your team to deal with Reuniclus? They're still able to perform other tasks too (CB Shuba hits like a truck, Spiritomb can be a decent spin block and dish out burn support). I don't see what the big commotion of "Shadow Ball!!!!11" is, either - I must've battled hundreds of these things by now and I've never seen SB. Only TR/Recover/PS/FB or CM/Recover/PS/FB sets. If SB really is as rare as this, Spiritomb is the be-all and end-all counter. It's not "stupid" is you place a Pokemon simply to counter one other one anyway - in 3rd gen, Claydol became OU simply because he was one of the best Tyranitar counters in existence.
I don't see how hard it is to fit Scizor on a stall team, either. Steel / Bug is great typing having only one weakness, and Scizor has more than enough bulk to be used in stall, especially with Roost access. A hard hitting priority move is usually still needed to check fast and powerful threats like Salamence, and U-turn helps keep the "stalling momentum" in your favour.
It was never unusual to see some form of Banded/Specs/Scarf user on stall teams in 4th Gen either - I personally used a scarf Latias which is a great form of revenge killing for things stall simply has so much trouble with. I have never found "Full-stall" to work, you always need something that can at least outpace most threats. Trick also immensely helps with last pokemon beasts like Suicune and Snorlax, so it is no different for Reuniclus.
Magic Guard is the only reason why Reuniclus is getting this amount of attention - I'm shocked to see that "full-stall" (I put this in quotes because I frankly don't believe it works anymore. Adapt to the metagame or gtfo and quit bitching.) users haven't complained about Clefable or Shinbora yet. From first hand experience I know that my Cosmic Power/Charge Beam/Softboiled/Assist Power Clefable rips stall a new asshole anyway. Even if I get Taunted the second turn, a +1 +1 Clefable is extremely hard for stall to take down and I always have the option of abusing charge beam to raise my SpA and Assist Power's BP even further.
So what if one of these three 'mon is placed into your team to deal with Reuniclus? They're still able to perform other tasks too (CB Shuba hits like a truck, Spiritomb can be a decent spin block and dish out burn support). I don't see what the big commotion of "Shadow Ball!!!!11" is, either - I must've battled hundreds of these things by now and I've never seen SB. Only TR/Recover/PS/FB or CM/Recover/PS/FB sets. If SB really is as rare as this, Spiritomb is the be-all and end-all counter. It's not "stupid" is you place a Pokemon simply to counter one other one anyway - in 3rd gen, Claydol became OU simply because he was one of the best Tyranitar counters in existence.
I don't see how hard it is to fit Scizor on a stall team, either. Steel / Bug is great typing having only one weakness, and Scizor has more than enough bulk to be used in stall, especially with Roost access. A hard hitting priority move is usually still needed to check fast and powerful threats like Salamence, and U-turn helps keep the "stalling momentum" in your favour.
It was never unusual to see some form of Banded/Specs/Scarf user on stall teams in 4th Gen either - I personally used a scarf Latias which is a great form of revenge killing for things stall simply has so much trouble with. I have never found "Full-stall" to work, you always need something that can at least outpace most threats. Trick also immensely helps with last pokemon beasts like Suicune and Snorlax, so it is no different for Reuniclus.
Magic Guard is the only reason why Reuniclus is getting this amount of attention - I'm shocked to see that "full-stall" (I put this in quotes because I frankly don't believe it works anymore. Adapt to the metagame or gtfo and quit bitching.) users haven't complained about Clefable or Shinbora yet. From first hand experience I know that my Cosmic Power/Charge Beam/Softboiled/Assist Power Clefable rips stall a new asshole anyway. Even if I get Taunted the second turn, a +1 +1 Clefable is extremely hard for stall to take down and I always have the option of abusing charge beam to raise my SpA and Assist Power's BP even further.
What is like to ask the pro-banners here is this, how does stall deal with crocune? Cm clefable, cm assist power shinpora, SD and np Luke, etc? In gen four people were getting their asses kicked by things like onfernape and Luke, so pokemon like gyara and tentacruel emerged on heavy stall to combat this. When,life gives you a challenge, don't complain its not fair, rise to meet it and dominate! Stall has been dominating the ladders since gen 2, being used by the best players and achieving the highest ranks (offense has also had its fair share). The result is always the same, they rise to the challenge. There's plenty of ways around rank, you just haven't found it yet if you think stall won't beat him. And to the original point, many many pokes can crush stall and the same arguments can be applied.
The fuss is that these people have a stall team they've spent hours building to combat as many threats as possible. Say there are 50 OU threats and the team counters 45 of them. Rankurusu is one of those threats that it doesn't counter. You can list as many counters as you like but to replace one of their pokemon with the counter means dealing with rankurusu but also opening the team up to other threats so now rankurusu isn't a problem anymore but they can only deal with 42/50 threats. That's what the fuss is. So to them, the best solution for their team is to ban rankurusu so now they deal with 45/49 threats and are one step closer to having a team that counters everything.
I agree with your sentiment, however your argument does not hold ground. Pokemon such as Spiritomb lack the ammount of defenses necessary to face Gen V's most effective sweepers. Scizor and Shubarugo do not 'belong' in a stall team as they lack the support moves necessary to be an attribute to a stallteam.
That is probably why Fastflygon failed to counter rankurusu as he was fellowing the horrible suggestions people have been giving to him.
Currently my stallteam runs Barujiina with Punishment which defeat all CM rankurusu with remarkable ease. All the while being an usefull asset to the team thanks to it's massive defensive stats and access to the Taunt/Toxic/Reliable recovery combination.
With beating one on one what are you exactly refering too? Unless you mean 'forcing out' through the use of Perish Song. Unfortunatly Perish Song only has 8PP max which means that your opponent can stall it out off PP over time. Considering as a user of Stall you usually have only way to defeat Rankurusu a skilled opponent will always attempt to achieve this at any cost.
Well rank can't exactly beat celebi seeing as he resist the common psychic fighting combo ran by him, he can consistently force him out, as long as the pp holds mind you. Point taken that besides that and a CM war celebi can't do too much either but it at least forces a stalemate instead of a loss. Btw I think stall could also try MH murkrow with perish trap sub and roost, with toxic spikes support it'd be incredibly annoying, and it contributes to stall with its ability to kill win condition pokes like rank and can trap opposing stallers
MH Murkrow has no place in stallteams because of it's below average defenses even after Evo Stone, SR weakness and lack of Leftovers. Not to mention that Murkrow get's 2HKO'd by a +1 Focus Blast after SR even if it's running max SpD investment. Which means it can't switch in and use Mean Look and Perish Song reliably with your only hope being a focus blast miss and stall never relies on luck.
Celebi takes 58.7% - 69.3% damage from Psycho Shock after 6 Calm Minds with a maximum Physical Defensive investment, CM sets don't stop it either as Psycho Shock does damage based on the opponents physical defense. Celebi can't touch Rankurusu in any reliable way(please don't come with shitty set like SD celebi we all know they suck) aside from Perish Song which like i said can be outstalled.
MH Sableye is very good though. It's surprisingly hard to kill without a really strong special attack. It completely shuts down rankurusu with taunt and kills it with night shade/seismic toss while walling the standard set and easily shrugging off shadow balls with recover.
Murkrow was sent out!
The foe's Reuniclus used Calm Mind!
Murkrow used Mean Look!
Reuniclus used Focus Blast(41.67% - 49.07% to 252 HP/252 Sp.def Neutral nature Murkrow with Evo stone)
Murkrow used Perish Song!
Reuniclus used Focus Blast!
Murkrow used Roost!
Reuniclus used Calm Mind!
Murkrow used Roost!
Reuniclus used Focus Blast!(55.56% - 65.43%)
Murkrow used Roost/Protect!
Reuniclus used Focus Blast!
Reuniclus fainted!
Murkrow can win.
Btw,what's with the crap that Reuniclus can hit Latias for 70% at like +1? I made an entire post with a ton of calcs showing that the Bulky CM variant(which is the one in question) cannot 2HKO Latias until +4.
I admit that MH Sableye has a lot of potential however considering it's not yet released, this will have no influence on the standard competitive metagame. Nor will it have any effect on the current vote.
Don't understand me wrong, i don't want rankurusu to be banned. However i do feel that many people who are opposing Rankurusu's ban share a complete lack of knowledge about Generation V stall which disgusts me.
Nattorei a pokemon who is used in many stall teams is immune to toxic, resists water and can easily defeat Suicune by using Power Whip. Also Crocune simply isn't as effective as it used to be thanks to the new sleep mechanics. Even though my team can't dent Crocune i've defeated it numerous times by phazing it out right before it wakes up ranking up entry hazard damage. If it's the last pokemon standing you can defeat it through using the Toxic/Taunt combo or Taunt and stall it out of Surf PP(unlike Rankurusu Crocune's unboosted surf doesn't hurt at all)
There are two things completely wrong here. After 2 Focus Blast Murkrow is death thanks to Stealth Rock damage however in your log you completely ignore this. Also what kind of idiot would use Calm Mind after Murkrow used Perish Song?
Here's a question.
How come Reuniclus gives your stall team trouble,but Sigilyph and Cleffable don't?(Not directed at anyone,just a regular question)
Don't say "oh,they're not good outside of countering stall" as the style being made "unviable" here is stall.
Offense apparently doesn't have too many problems as he's easier to kill and only has 4 turns to sweep.
Stall is the one who has problems with him,so there would be no point in saying that Cleffable/Sigilyph "is useless against everything else".
They're not as common,but they can do much the same as Reuniclus,so would we have to ban them too?
How come Reuniclus gives your stall team trouble,but Sigilyph and Cleffable don't?(Not directed at anyone,just a regular question)
Don't say "oh,they're not good outside of countering stall" as the style being made "unviable" here is stall.
Offense apparently doesn't have too many problems as he's easier to kill and only has 4 turns to sweep.
Stall is the one who has problems with him,so there would be no point in saying that Cleffable/Sigilyph "is useless against everything else".
They're not as common,but they can do much the same as Reuniclus,so would we have to ban them too?
Wait. Stop. Why would Reuniclus use Calm Mind when Murkrow is in KO range of another Focus Blast whether he uses Roost or not?
He'd still be left with like 2% HP. Reuniclus would still end up dead.
49% + 49% = 98%
With a Neutral nature. Calm/Sassy/whatever Nature would take even less damage.
Firstly, 50 Hours =/= a single day, even in Pokemon ;).
Maybe Shadow Ball isn't a problem. It might just be that I saw it when I tested some of the 'counters' and therefore their effectiveness was swayed. Punishment Barujina actually sound really interesting, so I'll have to test it out. I'll post my team below btw, because I would like to see something which will 'always beat me'. I don;t mean that in a patronising way - I haven't been able to competetive battle properly for very long so I'm still a little inexperienced, but I'm eager to improve and I think I'm a little above average as a player.
[Bear in mind that the team is still 'in testing' because I haven't found a really good way to deal with Rankurusu yet.]
tbh I cba to write description etc right now, but there's the team.
BTW, Rank can 2HKO Max/Max Sableye if it rolls high both times, assuming 4 Ev's, +1 and a Life Orb, so Sableye isn't quite solid. It's also pretty crap without it's DW ability. Crocune is also nowhere near as good at beating Stall because it is not immune to hazards and therefore loses to constant Phazing and pressure. Honestly, 'Cro' Pokemon are not the be-all and end-all of beating stall.
Anyway, I'm eager to here of any weaknesses you can find.
EDIT: Also, in the above scenario, Murkrow is KO'd on the next turn whatever it does, (Unless FB misses) which means Rank is no longer trapped and can now switch out to avoid dying. So yeah, Murkrow loses.
EDIT 2: Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Roost means FB will be super effective. so it really looks like this:
Krow uses Mean Look
Rank uses Focus Blast, Krow takes ~45%
Krow uses Perish Song
Rank uses Focus Blast, Krow takes ~45%
Krow Either Roosts and is Ko'd the Rank switches, or doesn't and has the same result
It can win if if has Protect, but then 4 Moveslot Syndrome/Taunt Bait
Maybe Shadow Ball isn't a problem. It might just be that I saw it when I tested some of the 'counters' and therefore their effectiveness was swayed. Punishment Barujina actually sound really interesting, so I'll have to test it out. I'll post my team below btw, because I would like to see something which will 'always beat me'. I don;t mean that in a patronising way - I haven't been able to competetive battle properly for very long so I'm still a little inexperienced, but I'm eager to improve and I think I'm a little above average as a player.
[Bear in mind that the team is still 'in testing' because I haven't found a really good way to deal with Rankurusu yet.]
Mew @ Leftovers Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Superpower
Dusclops (M) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Night Shade
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Nattorei (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Spikes
- Power Whip
Chansey (F) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Aromatherapy
- Softboiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Pain Split
- Volt Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Superpower
Dusclops (M) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Night Shade
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Nattorei (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Spikes
- Power Whip
Chansey (F) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Aromatherapy
- Softboiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Pain Split
- Volt Change
tbh I cba to write description etc right now, but there's the team.
BTW, Rank can 2HKO Max/Max Sableye if it rolls high both times, assuming 4 Ev's, +1 and a Life Orb, so Sableye isn't quite solid. It's also pretty crap without it's DW ability. Crocune is also nowhere near as good at beating Stall because it is not immune to hazards and therefore loses to constant Phazing and pressure. Honestly, 'Cro' Pokemon are not the be-all and end-all of beating stall.
Anyway, I'm eager to here of any weaknesses you can find.
EDIT: Also, in the above scenario, Murkrow is KO'd on the next turn whatever it does, (Unless FB misses) which means Rank is no longer trapped and can now switch out to avoid dying. So yeah, Murkrow loses.
EDIT 2: Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Roost means FB will be super effective. so it really looks like this:
Krow uses Mean Look
Rank uses Focus Blast, Krow takes ~45%
Krow uses Perish Song
Rank uses Focus Blast, Krow takes ~45%
Krow Either Roosts and is Ko'd the Rank switches, or doesn't and has the same result
It can win if if has Protect, but then 4 Moveslot Syndrome/Taunt Bait
huh, Roost removes Murkrow's flying type, so it takes super effective damage from Focus Blast on that turn, which is a easy OHKO according to your calculations (just double damage). It can just Focus Blast on the previous Roost and KO Murkrow too.
Actually, this makes me wonder: Judas, how much damage does Barujina take from Focus Blast and how much damage does Ranky take from Punishment with your EVs? (Let's assume +1/+1 because of Taunt) Gotta be really careful Roosting on Focus Blasts >_>