np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[IcyMan28]

I'm really not sure what all the talk is about Latios, maybe it's the simple fact that he falls into the same group as Darkrai, Skymin, and Deoxys as the last-gen Uber who is now OU.

For one, the Specs set is much easier to play around than LO, and I'd rather face that set any day as the LO set can still hit hard and has room for Recover if it wants to keep Latios healthy, and as other have mentioned the metagame is just not kind to it these days at all.

Shrang brings up a good point about 4th gen Latias and 5th gen Latios, but I think that merely goes to show the subjectivity of banning and that fact that if people want a certain metagame, they will do whatever it takes to get to that point, and Latios / Latias / Salamence were just part of the dragon witch-hunt that such a mindset produced, IMO. Latias was manageable last gen (it had less versatility than Mence, mind you, with the same Special attack but admittedly higher speed).

I can't remember who said it, but whoever mentioned the limit on suspect nominations was on the right track - why is it that when a suspect gets 2 simple majority / 1 supermajority Uber vote its fate is sealed, but when it gets 2 simple majority / 1 supermajority OU vote, it is still open for discussion until the right combination of voters finally manage to ban it?

Otherwise, I'm of the opinion that no suspects is the best way to describe this round, for the most part. NP LO Thundurus isn't particularly bulky, and the fact that it takes a turn to get that first Nasty Plot is a strike against it as its speed remains the same. If it doesn't run NP, coverage is reduced, and the same is true if it runs Thunder Wave.

LOL Excadrill.

If I had to nominate something it'd be Tornadus. Hurricane + Focus Blast is literally all it needs, and to think we underestimated it when first revealed. Flying would normally be easy to resist but when you consider that the most used steels (Ferrothorn and Scizor) are neutral to the move, and the steel that gets third (Excadrill) isn't particularly bulky, you'll realize that it isn't all THAT easy to wall. Thank god it lacks Nasty Plot and isn't bulky at all.

 

[Meru]

I don't know anything about your team other than that you've beaten me with it, but specially defensive Jirachi sounds like it could work: against offense, it comes in on Latias or non-specs Politoad or Tornelos or whatever and spreads Paralysis, then threatens to flinch stuff to death. Playing offense, it's one of my least favorite pokemon. It's not perfect in any respect, though.

Yeah I'm considering specially defensive Jirachi, but that would require a major team revamp. For now, I'm just playing with a massive gaping weakness since its usage hasn't really spiked.

And not to be condescending, but if I beat your Reuniclus team, you were probably severely outplayed or very poorly supporting it.

I can't remember who said it, but whoever mentioned the limit on suspect nominations was on the right track - why is it that when a suspect gets 2 simple majority / 1 supermajority Uber vote its fate is sealed, but when it gets 2 simple majority / 1 supermajority OU vote, it is still open for discussion until the right combination of voters finally manage to ban it?

Well usually, the reason behind this is that the metagame has shifted dramatically from the last time a vote occurred. Like another person said, Latios wasn't deemed broken in a metagame with Deoxys-A, Skymin, and Darkrai. This metagame is vastly different, and as such, is very liable to being found broken in this environment.

 

[iSkittles]

My biggest annoyance is five really bad synergizing pokemon on a team and then someone decides "hmm I'm stall weak, let me just throw on a Reuniclus there for the hell of it"

Unless stall waters itself down with something like Spiritomb, Reuniclus is extremely hard to beat. My current strategy is to phaze with Latias, put up enough hazards to eliminate the rest of the team to the point where Jellicent is able to be at full health when Reuniclus comes in and Taunts/S-Balls him to death. Very easy for things to go wrong.

Open to any stall suggestions to beat Reuniclus but aside from CMrachi, all of the options over-prepare you to the point where you're weak against offense, or are very easy to wear down with Reuniclus' Tyranitar/Scizor support

I'll be the first to admit that thing is hard to stop with proper support, and there were times where one well timed critical hit allowed it to run through my entire team once his counters were gone. But despite its power, Reuniclus is stoppable.

I usually trick it a scarf, which really fucks its shit up, and go from there. Once its recovery is removed, its not so bad. Also you could run Spiritomb, as its a hard counter for the Psychic/ Focus Blast variants. I'm way too lazy to run calcs, but a CB hit still takes a chunk out of Reuniclus (I think/hope.)

You could also try to be super cool and flinch (BAN ME PLEASE) him to death with Jirachi or Togekiss. x)

I'm really not sure what all the talk is about Latios, maybe it's the simple fact that he falls into the same group as Darkrai, Skymin, and Deoxys as the last-gen Uber who is now OU.

For one, the Specs set is much easier to play around than LO, and I'd rather face that set any day as the LO set can still hit hard and has room for Recover if it wants to keep Latios healthy, and as other have mentioned the metagame is just not kind to it these days at all.

Shrang brings up a good point about 4th gen Latias and 5th gen Latios, but I think that merely goes to show the subjectivity of banning and that fact that if people want a certain metagame, they will do whatever it takes to get to that point, and Latios / Latias / Salamence were just part of the dragon witch-hunt that such a mindset produced, IMO. Latias was manageable last gen (it had less versatility than Mence, mind you, with the same Special attack but admittedly higher speed).

I can't remember who said it, but whoever mentioned the limit on suspect nominations was on the right track - why is it that when a suspect gets 2 simple majority / 1 supermajority Uber vote its fate is sealed, but when it gets 2 simple majority / 1 supermajority OU vote, it is still open for discussion until the right combination of voters finally manage to ban it?

I agree with you completely. Smogon has that bandwagoning thing down bad. It's part of the reason why so many people are using the PO tiers over Smogon lately. Take it how you want it, but that's the way an increasing number of people feel since Smogon has been fucking up with tiering. (In their eyes.) IMO, this is something that needs to be brought up in Policy Review or wherever sooner rather than later since it's pretty shitty toward the Pokemon. It's kind of like being fined twice for the same crime in court.

 

[Meru]

I'll be the first to admit that thing is hard to stop with proper support, and there were times where one well timed critical hit allowed it to run through my entire team once his counters were gone. But despite its power, Reuniclus is stoppable.

I usually trick it a scarf, which really fucks its shit up, and go from there. Once its recovery is removed, its not so bad. Also you could run Spiritomb, as its a hard counter for the Psychic/ Focus Blast variants. I'm way too lazy to run calcs, but a CB hit still takes a chunk out of Reuniclus (I think/hope.)

You could also try to be super cool and flinch (BAN ME PLEASE) him to death with Jirachi or Togekiss. x)

Okay I don't think you read my post because I explicitly stated that the problem isn't just plain ole finding a Reuniclus counter. The problem is finding a Reuniclus counter that doesn't make your stall team completely poopy. If it's a solid enough counter, it waters down your stall team vs other teams. If it doesn't water down your stall team, it's usually a shaky counter.

Spiritomb is one of those aforementioned poopy counters.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

I agree with you completely. Smogon has that bandwagoning thing down bad. It's part of the reason why so many people are using the PO tiers over Smogon lately. Take it how you want it, but that's the way an increasing number of people feel since Smogon has been fucking up with tiering. (In their eyes.) IMO, this is something that needs to be brought up in Policy Review or wherever sooner rather than later since it's pretty shitty toward the Pokemon. It's kind of like being fined twice for the same crime in court.

So people are using other people tiers over smogon, so what?, is it that important that everyne outside of smogon uses smogons tiers and rules?

imo Smogon only has a responsibility to its community or users or whatever, to make the best metagame it can for its community, or at least what i thought, i dont think the community should worry over whose tiers other people are using.

 

[IcyMan28]

Well usually, the reason behind this is that the metagame has shifted dramatically from the last time a vote occurred. Like another person said, Latios wasn't deemed broken in a metagame with Deoxys-A, Skymin, and Darkrai. This metagame is vastly different, and as such, is very liable to being found broken in this environment.

A mere 15% found it broken in Round 1, up to 38% in Round 2 (which is a mere 5% away from a second supermajority). Skymin was forced to Air Slash vs Latios and flinchhax it to death, but I'll give you the other two. Still, no matter how you slice it, any pokemon that had been voted "Uber" with these percentages would still be banned; Latios remains up for voting despite having achieved the same percentages in favor of OU.

As for the rain sweepers, Ludicolo fails to OHKO with Ice Beam if I recall, and Scarf Latios actually outruns Adamant Kabutops so Kingdra was the only thing outrunning it in rain.

As for sun sweepers, Latios doesn't have the bulk to take repeated boosted Fire Blasts, and the common Chlorophyll sweepers (several of which it still beats, like Tangrowth, Venusaur, and Exeggutor) do have ways to hit it as Latios dislikes Venusaur's Sludge Bomb or a stray Sleep Powder. What I'm trying to prove is that while Latios is checked somewhat by weather, it isn't checked so much to the point where the change is drastic.

Just as people overhyped Latias in Gen 4 (seriously - it was voted OU twice and when two pokemon were banned that it checked rather than them checking it, it was still banned...what?), they are unwilling to deal with Latios this time around.

"The metagame is different" is just an excuse to get another vote - I could just as easily say that during the rain era, the metagame was so different that Darkrai was easier to check and thus OU.

 

[Requiem[9]]

And not to be condescending, but if I beat your Reuniclus team, you were probably severely outplayed or very poorly supporting it.

No, it was a Deoxys-S/LO Latios one. I still played horribly. Ironically, I haven't made a single team with Reuniclus, even though I can never deal with it.

 

[shrang]

Okay I don't think you read my post because I explicitly stated that the problem isn't just plain ole finding a Reuniclus counter. The problem is finding a Reuniclus counter that doesn't make your stall team completely poopy. If it's a solid enough counter, it waters down your stall team vs other teams. If it doesn't water down your stall team, it's usually a shaky counter.

Spiritomb is one of those aforementioned poopy counters.

... How is it poopy?? IMO if you want to use a Stall team, you'll need a spin-blocker, and Spiritomb does quite a decent job at that.

 

[KurashiDragon]

If I had to nominate something it'd be Tornadus. Hurricane + Focus Blast is literally all it needs, and to think we underestimated it when first revealed. Flying would normally be easy to resist but when you consider that the most used steels (Ferrothorn and Scizor) are neutral to the move, and the steel that gets third (Excadrill) isn't particularly bulky, you'll realize that it isn't all THAT easy to wall. Thank god it lacks Nasty Plot and isn't bulky at all.

There are two reasons why I believe this thing has been underestimated.

1. Thundarus outclasses it in most of what it does. They've pretty much got the same everything apart from a few moves Tornadus knows including Hurricane.

2. Because The flying type is completely underestimated. There's never been a major flying type that could successfully break teams. Skarmory is probably the most successful flying type that's majorly uses the typing and it's not even a offensive pokes. Flying has a weakness to stealth rock and doesn't have very good offensive coverage and it's defensive typing is terrible.

When you consider all that Flying just doesn't seem all that worthy. However, I feel Staraptor would've been a major lesson has people really started getting into it. When you consider Flying / Fighting coverage to go against steels and rocks and a powerful enough attack you'd see something truely shocking. Once Tornadus really could start getting into the metagame (i.e when SS and Drizzle were banned together) is when it started to shine. I think that mabye flying types will start to shine ahead...... if there could ever be something beyond Tornadus and Staraptor anyway lol.

 

[IcyMan28]

The problem with the flying-type is that the high-powered flying moves have poor distribution. Gale is really only viable on Dragonite and Tornadus. Brave Bird has its uses but honestly only Staraptor has a shot at OU (other than Blaziken, who has better options).

Otherwise, they are stuck with Air Slash and the relatively niche Acrobatics.

 

[Athenodoros]

You could do a lot worse than Tornadus and Dragonite. They are both great sweepers this generation, even if Dragonite would really prefer a physical Gale.

 

[Meru]

A mere 15% found it broken in Round 1, up to 38% in Round 2 (which is a mere 5% away from a second supermajority). Skymin was forced to Air Slash vs Latios and flinchhax it to death, but I'll give you the other two. Still, no matter how you slice it, any pokemon that had been voted "Uber" with these percentages would still be banned; Latios remains up for voting despite having achieved the same percentages in favor of OU.

As for the rain sweepers, Ludicolo fails to OHKO with Ice Beam if I recall, and Scarf Latios actually outruns Adamant Kabutops so Kingdra was the only thing outrunning it in rain.

As for sun sweepers, Latios doesn't have the bulk to take repeated boosted Fire Blasts, and the common Chlorophyll sweepers (several of which it still beats, like Tangrowth, Venusaur, and Exeggutor) do have ways to hit it as Latios dislikes Venusaur's Sludge Bomb or a stray Sleep Powder. What I'm trying to prove is that while Latios is checked somewhat by weather, it isn't checked so much to the point where the change is drastic.

Just as people overhyped Latias in Gen 4 (seriously - it was voted OU twice and when two pokemon were banned that it checked rather than them checking it, it was still banned...what?), they are unwilling to deal with Latios this time around.

"The metagame is different" is just an excuse to get another vote - I could just as easily say that during the rain era, the metagame was so different that Darkrai was easier to check and thus OU.

It has nothing to do with how Latios was checked and has a lot more to do with how little he was being used because there was much better stuff to abuse.

Didn't even bother reading over any of your weather calcs because they had nothing to do with my point.

Darkrai was banned even when the rain metagame was just as abusable so not really sure what that little remark is for

And it's your own personal problem if you don't think Latias was ban worthy in Gen IV. If you enjoy a metagame infested with dragons and steels, that's great, but the diversity seen after banning Latias/Salamence is the metagame most of Smogon had been vying for.

 

[BAD]

It has nothing to do with how Latios was checked and has a lot more to do with how little he was being used because there was much better stuff to abuse.

Didn't even bother reading over any of your weather calcs because they had nothing to do with my point.

Darkrai was banned even when the rain metagame was just as abusable so not really sure what that little remark is for

And it's your own personal problem if you don't think Latias was ban worthy in Gen IV. If you enjoy a metagame infested with dragons and steels, that's great, but the diversity seen after banning Latias/Salamence is the metagame most of Smogon had been vying for.

Exactly, because of all these high powered dragons running around with nukes (Draco Meteors), everybody is practically required to run Steel types on their teams (Nattorie), which leads to everyone requiring to use some type of Fire move on their teams to beat said Steel types.

Not really much diversity. Lati@s needs to go.

 

[IcyMan28]

It has nothing to do with how Latios was checked and has a lot more to do with how little he was being used because there was much better stuff to abuse.

Didn't even bother reading over any of your weather calcs because they had nothing to do with my point.

Darkrai was banned even when the rain metagame was just as abusable so not really sure what that little remark is for

And it's your own personal problem if you don't think Latias was ban worthy in Gen IV. If you enjoy a metagame infested with dragons and steels, that's great, but the diversity seen after banning Latias/Salamence is the metagame most of Smogon had been vying for.

"The metagame is different" is tossed around way too much - if Latios really were so powerful, it would have centralized the metagame around it to the point of drastically reduced diversity. Latios outruns every rain sweeper bar Kingdra with a Scarf set regardless (minus Jolly Kabutops, who is much less threatening than Adamant), so it actually had use in the Rain meta as well.

I'm not really sure what meta you're playing now, but it is far from being the dragon/steel meta you describe 4th gen to be. Rain offense, rain stall, sun offense, sand offense, sun stall, weatherless...all are viable - the only steels commonly seen are Scizor (and not to the point of overcentralization like the Mence era), Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and maybe Jirachi. Even Metagross, who is one of the best checks to Lati@s even in Ubers, isn't particularly common, if that tells you anything.

Exactly, because of all these high powered dragons running around with nukes (Draco Meteors), everybody is practically required to run Steel types on their teams (Nattorie), which leads to everyone requiring to use some type of Fire move on their teams to beat said Steel types.

Not really much diversity. Lati@s needs to go.

Lol no. You act like steels are used solely for dragons, they aren't. They have a vast number of resistances and are the best defensive type in the game, so let's not pretend that Latios is the only reason why they are around. Ferrothorn is one of the best walls in the game with its stats and resistances, and can lay hazards at that. Jirachi has Wish support and crazy options. Excadrill is a great sand sweeper. Scizor has STAB Uturn and Bullet Punch as usual.

This "centralization" is entirely imagined. Fire moves have always been needed to beat steels, ever since gen 3. That would be like saying that because TyraniBOAH runs both Focus Punch and Flamethrower, SkarmBliss is too much for the meta to handle.

 

[BAD]

Lol no. You act like steels are used solely for dragons, they aren't. They have a vast number of resistances and are the best defensive type in the game, so let's not pretend that Latios is the only reason why they are around. Ferrothorn is one of the best walls in the game with its stats and resistances, and can lay hazards at that. Jirachi has Wish support and crazy options. Excadrill is a great sand sweeper. Scizor has STAB Uturn and Bullet Punch as usual.

This "centralization" is entirely imagined. Fire moves have always been needed to beat steels, ever since gen 3. That would be like saying that because TyraniBOAH runs both Focus Punch and Flamethrower, SkarmBliss is too much for the meta to handle.

Steel typing is the only type that resist Dragon moves, and that is a huge reason to use them against dragons with essentially a OHKO move unless your a Steel type. Sure, the steel typing has many benefits to it because in all honesty the Steel typing is broken, but there is much more of reason to use them for the dragon infested metgame we have right now.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm not saying you shouldn't use them against dragons lol.

Please stop throwing around the term dragon-infested as if dragons are around every corner. Garchomp and Salamence aren't nearly as threatening as they weren't last gen compared to other threats, and Hydreigon and Haxorus are far from broken. The same for Latias, Flygon, Dragonite, and Kingdra.

Honestly, Latios is the ONLY dragon that is being contested right now, and I think that has more to do with the fact that it has been Uber for the past 2 gens than its actual performance.

 

[haunter]

While you aren't contradicting yourself saying Lati twins weren't broken in 4th gen, the stuff quoted can also easily apply to 4th gen. There were a number of things that could revenge Latias in 4th gen. ScarfTar was the biggest one, then you had Weavile, LO Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Starmie, lolNinjask and Choice Scarf users. As for Pokemon that could set up on -2 Draco Meteor, there were plenty of those, too. Agiligross, Lucario (SD or Agility), SD Scizor, CM Raikou, CM Suicune, Agility Empoleon (LO or SubPetaya), DD Tyranitar and even DD Gyarados can set up and avoid being revenged by Latias later. If the metagame is more offensive, Latios should be even more broken this gen since the reason Latias was banned last gen was through the Support Characteristic (most dubious Characteristic ever, but eh). More Pokemon are able to sweep due to the offensive nature of the metagame, so he fulfills the requirements for which Latias was banned last gen even better now. 5th gen is slightly different, but the factors dictating whether Lati@s should be banned are still there. I'm still finding it hard to believe that Latias was found broken last gen but at the same time, Latios is not this gen.

Well Shrang, although you're raising a fair point here, I fail to see a necessary correlation between the Lati@s ban in Gen 4 and the current bitching against Latios. Sure Latios can still severely dent even Pokemon that resist its stabs but, as you said, given the offensive nature of this metagame people are starting to realize that, even if they don't carry a dedicated Latios counter, sacrificing a Pokemon during the battle is not a big deal when they then have the chance to set up their own sweeper and gain the offensive momentum.

Also, the "support characteristic" of last Gen was extremely vague and it's my belief that it was misinterpreted and twisted just to create an "ad hoc" argument against Latias. Finally, as others have said, there's an ineradicable factor of subjectivity in every vote so I would not consider the results of Latias' or Latios' vote as pregnant as you seem to do.

 

[November Blue]

I'm really not sure what all the talk is about Latios, maybe it's the simple fact that he falls into the same group as Darkrai, Skymin, and Deoxys as the last-gen Uber who is now OU.

Well said. You make excellent posts sometimes Icy. The above is what I've thought for a long time. People just don't want to adapt to change. "Latios is uber" has been true for a long time, and his newfound OU status makes him an easy target.

Exactly, because of all these high powered dragons running around with nukes (Draco Meteors), everybody is practically required to run Steel types on their teams (Nattorie), which leads to everyone requiring to use some type of Fire move on their teams to beat said Steel types.

Not really much diversity. Lati@s needs to go.

Steel typing is the only type that resist Dragon moves, and that is a huge reason to use them against dragons with essentially a OHKO move unless your a Steel type. Sure, the steel typing has many benefits to it because in all honesty the Steel typing is broken, but there is much more of reason to use them for the dragon infested metgame we have right now.

Lurk more please.

There are two reasons why I believe this thing has been underestimated.

1. Thundarus outclasses it in most of what it does. They've pretty much got the same everything apart from a few moves Tornadus knows including Hurricane.

2. Because The flying type is completely underestimated. There's never been a major flying type that could successfully break teams. Skarmory is probably the most successful flying type that's majorly uses the typing and it's not even a offensive pokes. Flying has a weakness to stealth rock and doesn't have very good offensive coverage and it's defensive typing is terrible.

True. Tornadus does have his niches though. And he's extremely good at them. Like hydreigon and flygon, it's potentially outclassed (said very loosely) but still a top notch poke regardless. These are the moves that tornadus has, but thundurus lacks:

Tailwind
Acrobatics
Aerial Ace
Air Cutter
Air Slash
Extrasensory
Gust
Windstorm/Gale/Hurricane/Cyclone/Typhoon

Extrasensory is ousted by psychic, which both learn, and aerial ace, air cutter and gust are inferior options. So the only advantages he has are priority tailwind and windstorm/air slash/acrobatics. Tailwind is a good choice, somewhat emulating priority twave if you really want, and his STAB moves are good enough.

He is grossly underestimated though. Specs windstorm is (when it hits) absolutely terrifying. He can actually be played similarly to specslatios, as his flying STAB is only resisted by 2 types, which are handled by focus blast. It OHKOes everything in sight just like DM, and he is walled by very few pokes whichever move he picks. Priority taunt, tailwind, sub and u-turn to top it off, this thing is going to take the metagame by storm (lol) one day.

 

[capefeather]

On the 4th gen comparisons with Lati@s, I think that the increased general diversity of OU has contributed to Latios being fine in OU where Latias was Uber in Gen 4. Think about WHY Latias was banned; she outclassed a bunch of stuff and made a bunch of other stuff unviable, to the point that the metagame became centralized enough to warrant a ban to improve it. (Actually, I voted Latias OU regardless, but whatever.) In this generation, the centralizing power of Latios is just not enough to harm the metagame to the same point. New good Steel-types have been introduced, and there's been a sort of speed creep with a lot of good new Pokémon around the 101-111 range, when before only Infernape really held that position. Team preview has, I suspect, also been a huge factor in mitigating Latios's threat.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I'm not saying you shouldn't use them against dragons lol.

Please stop throwing around the term dragon-infested as if dragons are around every corner. Garchomp and Salamence aren't nearly as threatening as they weren't last gen compared to other threats, and Hydreigon and Haxorus are far from broken. The same for Latias, Flygon, Dragonite, and Kingdra.

Honestly, Latios is the ONLY dragon that is being contested right now, and I think that has more to do with the fact that it has been Uber for the past 2 gens than its actual performance.

The reason no offensive sweeper is spread out to thickly is because none of them really outclass each other in what they do. I mean sure you can argue that they're similar in alot of what they do but if you actually think about it the offensive dragons really dont do alot of anothers work because their either outclassed or are doing things so differently that they cant possibly be used like something else. (FYI I wasn't just talking about the Dragonite vs Salamence debate because alot of pokes do alot of each others job like Flygon vs Garchomp and Garchomp vs Haxorus CB set and Dragonite vs Kingdra rain set.)

Latios however heavily outclasses Special Dragons in much of what they do. It's got more SpA than Latias and Salamence, More speed than Hydreigon. Sure you could argue that Latios has worse defensive typing than hydreigon and Latias has moves of it's own but when it comes right down to it Latios has better statistics and shares much of the same movesets with the other two which makes it a much more compitent Special Dragon.

@JT Swift

Agreed, Tornadus is absolutely terrifying in rain. In fact I hate facing tornadus more than I used to hate facing SS Kingdra in the rain.

 

[masterful]

... How is it poopy?? IMO if you want to use a Stall team, you'll need a spin-blocker, and Spiritomb does quite a decent job at that.

It is just outclassed to the max by Jellicent, unless you really want a pursuiter

 

[Thorhammer]

It is just outclassed to the max by Jellicent, unless you really want a pursuiter

Spiritomb has higher Attack, no weaknesses, a Psychic immunity, and several moves Jellicent can't use. They're two bulky Ghosts that bring different things to the team they're on; one doesn't outclass the other. Stop acting like only one Pokemon is viable for any given role.

 

[capefeather]

Couldn't play for the past two days, and could only get five battles in today, of which I won two. There wasn't really a "main" team that I used this time; I just attempted once again to use my sun team, only to encounter a very haxy game in which I lost X( At least I know now that defensive Garchomp is a decent Reuniclus check. Also, my rain team got COMPLETELY wrecked by a Blaziken. +2 HJK OHKOed everything, including Tentacruel :(

*sigh* I'm getting tired of going back to the drawing board with some of these teams. The two wins were from my hyper sand team and my Reuniclus/Landorus team, not that surprising.

High-profile threats: 1 Blaziken, 1 Reuniclus, 2 Thundurus, 1 Latias. Lost to all of them. Yeah, very bad day, though low sample today is slightly comforting.

 

[Meru]

Spiritomb has higher Attack, no weaknesses, a Psychic immunity, and several moves Jellicent can't use. They're two bulky Ghosts that bring different things to the team they're on; one doesn't outclass the other. Stop acting like only one Pokemon is viable for any given role.

Set up bait, especially for Blaziken, doesn't really threaten any of the spinners, loses a lot of momentum for your team.

Really his only positive I see is that he beats Reuniclus.

 

[TLK]

I still think we need to take a bit of a closer look at Blaziken. While it may not end up being classed as too powerful, it's definitely worth looking at, simply due to the fact that unless you have a Dory or a Chlorophyll sweeper, it is very hard to revenge kill and nearly impossible to wall without a Slowbro.

The only problem that Blaziken has is it often can't get that one turn to set up it's Swords Dance and sweep.

In my opinion, Blaziken is the most destructive Pokemon in this metagame. Aside from CB Azumarrill, it won't die to any priority (although it will take a large chunk from powerful priority like Roobushin and Scizor, but not enough to stop it taking those down with it and probably a couple others). Blaziken often takes down 2/3 Pokemon a match before dying due to recoil for me when I use him.