np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[mien]

Blaziken is the chomp of gen 5" are you serious? Did you play with SB Blaziken for a year and a half? The game has been out in the US for a month now. 1 month. There is not even a US Dream World yet. There were glitches in PO until a few months ago, and there aren't even detailed statistics available yet! People say the community is ban-happy, but they're ban-ecstatic.

Judging from the fact that you didn't manage to meet the voting requirements, it's highly likely that they have played the game far more than you do or at least have enough knowledge to maintain the high win/loss ratio needed to reach the requirements. All the PO glitches found so far have been fixed and are therefore no longer a problem. Also do you honestly want significant banlist changes 2 years after the release of the game like it did in D/P? To me it seems better if the banlist issue is solved early on when people are still willing to accept changes, rather than doing it years later and creating the shitstorm we had with Garchomp all over again.

Second/Third paragraph: That is the very reason why a simple majority is not enough to ban a pokemon. Blaziken however reached a 2/3th majority which means that there is significant competitive community support behind it. Needless to say the new generation brought 150 new pokemon and a massive amount of new game elements. You cannot honestly think a certain degree of banishments won't be necessary to achieve an acceptable balanced game.

 

[BurningMan]

^we have been playing on PO for over a half year the only notable glitch was the Sand Power Glitch.
The only things we banned till now are Darkrai, Shamin-S,Blaziken and Deo-A/N all 4 of them were former ubers. Along with Inconsistent (wich turned the game into a dice roll) and the Drizzle + SS ban that helped to stabilize the metagame a lot.
Also some former ubers were debanned like Deo-S/D, Mew, Lati@s, Salamence, Garchomp and Wobbuffet.
I wouldn`t say we are ban happy the only bans that caused controversy were Blaziken and the way Drizzle+SS was executed. Almost everyone is happy with the metagame we currently have.
And i don't see how usage statistics should affect any bans they are helpful but not necessary.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

"Blaziken is the chomp of gen 5" are you serious? Did you play with SB Blaziken for a year and a half? The game has been out in the US for a month now. 1 month. There is not even a US Dream World yet. There were glitches in PO until a few months ago, and there aren't even detailed statistics available yet! People say the community is ban-happy, but they're ban-ecstatic.

SB Blaziken exists since November, that is, since the Smogon server exists.

Banning things used to be a big deal. It used to be avoided. Smogon has always been (at least as far as I can recall) opposed to bans in general, and uses only as many as necessary. Yet there's already a complex ban and a pokemon+ability ban in gen 5, after a month of actual US gameplay?

There's a complex ban in which the "author" admitted it to be temporary so we don't have to "waste time" with it now (imagine testing all the Swift Swimmers along with the other possible suspects). And what pokémon+ability ban are you talking about...? Moody was a blanket ban, nothing can have it.

Everyone here really just needs to reevaluate their mindset, or at least be clear about what it is that they want. Smogon needs to say outright that they think bans are good, and primarily want a "popular metagame" instead of one with the fewest bans. As long as Smogon will say that's their stance, I'll understand this absurdity. But if people really want to ban SB Blaziken and say "we are banning the minimum number of things to make the game balanced," they need a reality check.

Translation: "I don't play pokémon since God knows when and I think it's absurd a starter got banned". That's D/P Garchomp all over again.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Depending on your point of view, the arguments made for Garchomp and the arguments being made for Blaziken may fall under the same category, but nevertheless, it is notable that D/P Garchomp didn't have any other ability other than Sand Veil.

I only care about Blaziken being banned because a) I have to think of a new team, and b) it means I can't have an analysis for using Blaze Blaziken in UU, which I will do, because you can deviate from official rules in the Battle Me thread as long as you say so when you're asking for a battle. I might get over Blaziken being banned, but that probably won't mean I still agree with how it went.

Also, lol at lee saying that SD SB Blaziken would do horribly in 5th Gen in the (R.I.P.) Blaziken thread:

Yeah, not too keen on the Swords Dance set. If today's OU metagame is anything to go by he'd be promptly raped by priority and the horde of super-fast scarfers (which are likely to be even more common in BW with this new DD'er and Swift Swimmers galore). I reckon Lucario would still be better in that role thanks to his resistances and Extremespeed.

 

[Acritter]

I only care about Blaziken being banned because a) I have to think of a new team

That's not exactly a good reason. Let Blaziken die.

I'm pretty sure this has been around for a while, but has anyone else been having success with Archeops/Terakion as an offensive combo? Archeops serves to break or weaken many walls, including Gliscor (HP Ice) and Terakion can clean up pretty well after a Rock Polish/Swords Dance. They don't have the most incredible coverage between the two, but they're both very offensive Pokemon that teams can really struggle to deal with.

Also, yay! Smogon's back!

 

[Lorenz]

That's not exactly a good reason. Let Blaziken die.

I'm pretty sure this has been around for a while, but has anyone else been having success with Archeops/Terakion as an offensive combo? Archeops serves to break or weaken many walls, including Gliscor (HP Ice) and Terakion can clean up pretty well after a Rock Polish/Swords Dance. They don't have the most incredible coverage between the two, but they're both very offensive Pokemon that teams can really struggle to deal with.

Also, yay! Smogon's back!

Defeatist (sp?) is such an awful ability though. I can see Archeops for the Random Wifi Battles but not for Smogon's metagame.

 

[Acritter]

Defeatist (sp?) is such an awful ability though. I can see Archeops for the Random Wifi Battles but not for Smogon's metagame.

I wouldn't just disregard Archeops until you've used it. With its speed and power, it's a very powerful attacker and revenge killer throughout the entire game. It really does resemble the 5th-gen Infernape: if it takes a hit it dies, but up to that point it does massive damage. Keep in mind that, just like Infernape, you generally have to switch it in on a death and switch it out against anything threatening (unless you want a sacrifice). Its sheer power and versatility make up for it, though.

 

[TheAvenger]

why is there voting requirements? if these bans affect the entire pkmn community then everyone should have a say. i say it affects the entire community bc ppl dc on random match or regular matches when players go by their own rules, and they say "thats not legal on smogon,,,,,,," so it affects the gameplay. in my opinion i think blaziken and a couple other pokes outta be taken to a recount with every1 with an account here having a option to vote.

 

[haunter]

because we don't want people with no experience in competitive play to decide our tiers. Also what you're suggesting would just lead people to register multiple accounts just to get multiple votes. While I agree that the currrent requirements are maybe too strict, we're not going to allow newbies or just bad players to decide tiers, live with it.

 

[Mishra]

@theAvenger:

I have heard there is a special voting privilege form, where even if you don't make the requirements, if you have a good enough case, they might consider you for voting rights.

 

[TheAvenger]

point being . blaziken should never have been banned. its too easy to ban it this early in the LEGIT metagame , since bw has only been OFFICIALLY out for about a month. plus blaziken is a starter pokemon . that alone means it shouldn't be banned. but if thats not the case then infernape and swampert should've been banned because infernape in gen 4 was over centralizing the metagame. and dont get me started on cursepert.

 

[Deaga]

Infernape and Swampert aren't even close to the same level of Speed Boost Blaziken. Cursepert is a joke, especially on BW.

 

[TheAvenger]

speed boost blaziken is a joke. if your team contains both ghost a flash fire pokemon. whoops chandelure pwns blaziken to the curb. it can switch in to both of blaziken's stab moves the only thing it needs to fear is shadow claw which to my memory can be dealt with by a good steel type. the very least u can do is hp stall shadow claw.

 

[Ankoku]

I'm looking at the August 2010 statistics for 4th Gen and I'm wondering what drugs you're on to view Infernape (#7 in usage) and Swampert (#14 in usage) as overcentralizing. I'm also wondering what kind of point you're trying to make with Cursepert (Curse was seen on 11% of all Swampert sets overall).

 

[RedMeowth]

speed boost blaziken is a joke. if your team contains both ghost a flash fire pokemon. whoops chandelure pwns blaziken to the curb. it can switch in to both of blaziken's stab moves the only thing it needs to fear is shadow claw which to my memory can be dealt with by a good steel type. the very least u can do is hp stall shadow claw.

Or once the steel Pokemon comes out to block Chandelure from taking the Shadow Claw (Stone Edge can also hit Chandelure, BTW), Blaziken can hit the Steel Pokemon with its STAB moves. >_>

And sure, you COULD switch Chandelure in on that and keep switching in the Steel Pokemon on the Shadow Claws, but would that get either side anywhere?

 

[TheAvenger]

it would deplete shadow claws pp eventually

 

[Acritter]

it would deplete shadow claws pp eventually

And what if he uses Shadow Claw twice in a row? Even just once? Then you lose, badly. What if he switches out to something neither of those can deal with? The slightest bit of variation from your opponent results in the loss of your entire team.

Lemme put it this way. Make your best anti-Blaziken team, go up against one of the better players here with a Blaziken on their team, and see how you fare.

 

[alexwolf]

to avenger:if you want to prove something do it with arguements ...
stop posting shit like infernape or swampert overcentralizing the 4th gen ou...
you don't have a clue of blaziken's true potential yet you continue to be so persistant and unwilling to make a conversation...
one of your arguements to support that blaziken is not uber,was 'cause he is a starter...and you want us to take you seriously???i don't even know why i am replying to your nonsenses but anyway...

 

[SigmaEpsilon]

Avenger, tell me:

If Empoleon got Wonder Guard as its Dream World Ability, and it somehow got Quiver Dance, and, say, Recover to heal off any damage, would you say it should not be banned because it is a starter pokemon? No, you'd be too busy saying WHAT THE FUCK EMPOLEON JUST 6-0'D MY TEAM.

Now, go back to what I just wrote. Replace "Empoleon" with "Blaziken", "Wonder Guard" with "Speed Boost", "Quiver Dance" with "buffed Hi-Jump Kick", and "Recover to heal off damage" with "Sword Dance to increase damage further". What has changed between the paragraph before and after?

Nothing.

Now, people have been raging at you for a few posts now, so I'm not gonna push my point further; if you don't understand this, then fine, you don't understand it. But your logic is flawed, your experience is severely lacking and your thoughts are null and void in this matter. Hell, I know I'm not the biggest expert on this metagame. But I know enough to say that Blaziken is tough beyond shit now, enough to make the metagame uneven.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Avenger, tell me:

If Empoleon got Wonder Guard as its Dream World Ability, and it somehow got Quiver Dance, and, say, Recover to heal off any damage, would you say it should not be banned because it is a starter pokemon? No, you'd be too busy saying WHAT THE FUCK EMPOLEON JUST 6-0'D MY TEAM.

Now, go back to what I just wrote. Replace "Empoleon" with "Blaziken", "Wonder Guard" with "Speed Boost", "Quiver Dance" with "buffed Hi-Jump Kick", and "Recover to heal off damage" with "Sword Dance to increase damage further". What has changed between the paragraph before and after?

Although I mostly agree with you, I find your "mix and replace words" sentence a little... unworthy of an example. "What if Crobat got Shadow Tag as its dream world ability, and some how it got Swords Dance, and, say, Super Power for more damage and type coverage." We could easily change that to Jigglypuff with inner focus and Aqua Tail or some shit and it would easily lose its effectiveness as an argument.

But the point still stands. Speed Boost broke Blaziken. We can't allow it to sit around just because its a starter. We also can't have people who could very well be scrubs be able to vote just because it upsets them (whether or not The Avenger is a scrub is beyond me). Get good, have voting rights, and bring it back up for voting. Other wise, we have tested this for near 6 months now and we have extensive practice and knowledge on this. The general conclusion is by 75% of the voting pool (of experienced players) that Blaziken is indeed broken.

If you can counter it with statistics and real numbers and show you have extensive battling experience, then sure, work on getting voting rights and fix this if you find it to be so terrible.

 

[alphatron]

Actually, it is indeed very easy to defeat blaziken if you have the most anti blaziken team ever. Politoed, Gliscor with rain dance (if he can learn it). CB Dragonite with extreme speed, CB Conkeldurr, CB Azumarrill, and CB Sharpedo.

Now your entire team is geared to kill blaziken. Unfortunately now, it sucks though.

Anyway guys, let's talk about how Rotom-H is the best counter to both Thunderos and Tornadus ever.

 

[AlphaSpade]

If only Volt Absorb Raikou was out right now :<

Anyway, Blaziken should not be allowed in a metagame where the existence of dragons forces the use of multiple steel-types, giving it way too many opportunities to set up.

 

[Acritter]

Actually, it is indeed very easy to defeat blaziken if you have the most anti blaziken team ever. Politoed, Gliscor with rain dance (if he can learn it). CB Dragonite with extreme speed, CB Conkeldurr, CB Azumarrill, and CB Sharpedo.

Now your entire team is geared to kill blaziken. Unfortunately now, it sucks though.

Anyway guys, let's talk about how Rotom-H is the best counter to both Thunderos and Tornadus ever.

That was kind of the point. I was half hoping for him to take up the offer and then start complaining about how, I dunno, Crocune was broken, just to prove he was an idiot.

I should probably try out the Rotom formes sometime, though. They seem quite strong. Not sure the toaster is quite justified in being used over Rotom-W just because of the genies, though. Overheat is good, but not as good as Hydro Pump.

 

[Taylor]

ive not used rotom-h simply because i find rotom-w way too effective under rain for me to consider using a dual-type with SR weakness. toaster requires overheat to set itself apart from its washer-form; thing is id much rather spam overheat with chandelure!

 

[jrrrrrrr]

This new metagame is TERRIBLE.

Every team is either Politoed->Thundurus or TTar->Excadrill, and there's no legit way of stopping both. We banned everything that can build momentum, congrats everyone. Every match I've played in the last hour has been either:

1) Rain vs Rain, seeing who can crit first
2) Rain vs Sand, seeing who can KO the other weather abuser first
3) Rain vs no weather, destroying them easily

If this is what we want BW OU to be, then I'm going to stick with challenge cup. I suggest we unban a bunch of things come next suspect test.