Too much sense in one post.
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Yeah, Chansey did just fine in Generation IV UU with Leftovers. Eviolite is a good item, but people should be open to the possibility of using Leftovers sometimes.
That doesn't make any sense though. The difference between having lefties and not having lefties is 6.25% every turn. Eviolite more than eclipses that through the damage it prevents.
Considering that Eviolite Chansey gets a max Def of 178 and retains better special bulk uninvested than +Nature max Evs SpD leftovers (369 vs 339) with 704 HP, then you got no reason to not use Eviolite chansey instead of Regular leftovers chansey (since you already have reliable recovery outside of lefties)
To the ones complaining about Chansey being set up on, do you honestly leave the fat blob in? Most of what makes Chansey far too potent is that there are alot of things that stand no chance against it forcing a switch and allowing it to easily come in.
After that it only needs that one turn to fire off one of its massive 300+HP Wishes or Aromatherapy or even a status/SR. After that it has just brought back some massive threat like Kyurem, Heracross, Victini, Arcanine, etc. back from the brink of death into tip top shape.
What Eviolite does is make it so even an effective prediction doesn't punish enough. Happen to run a mixed set? Predicted the Chansey and threw off a Superpower or Outrage or status?
Whoops sorry, you're nowhere even near killing because it actually has defense! It just Wish/Softboiled back up/Aromatherapied. Chansey punished your good prediction in favour of absolute brute force.
After that it only needs that one turn to fire off one of its massive 300+HP Wishes or Aromatherapy or even a status/SR. After that it has just brought back some massive threat like Kyurem, Heracross, Victini, Arcanine, etc. back from the brink of death into tip top shape.
What Eviolite does is make it so even an effective prediction doesn't punish enough. Happen to run a mixed set? Predicted the Chansey and threw off a Superpower or Outrage or status?
Whoops sorry, you're nowhere even near killing because it actually has defense! It just Wish/Softboiled back up/Aromatherapied. Chansey punished your good prediction in favour of absolute brute force.
Status on chasey should never be a problem (Natural Cure), and bar toxic (or ocasional parahax) nothing really makes the blob easier to handle on that side, still she has her counter and i'm still neutral on the subject of her being banned 'till Kyurem ans sun goes, then i think chansey will show her true colors
Oh, Chansey. Chansey is absolutely broken, and if we don't ban it we might as well get rid of the Defensive characteristic because literally nothing else is such a perfect fit for it in any tier. It can survive a fucking Close Combat from ScarfHera and paralyze it for god's sake, nothing should be able to do that while still being able to take less than 40% from even the strongest neutral special moves in the tier. My teams barely have any special attackers anymore, and Chansey still manages to piss me off by coming in on my physical attackers and statusing them while surviving some absurdly powerful move (most recently a +2 Horn Leech from Swasbuck).
The only reason people don't think Chansey is broken is due to the fact that it walls so much of the metagame that they frequently just use it to deal with everything, and bitch when it (obviously) dies. A well-built team will never lose their Chansey because it is nigh unkillable unless used as an emergency stop to a boosted physical attacker.
The only reason people don't think Chansey is broken is due to the fact that it walls so much of the metagame that they frequently just use it to deal with everything, and bitch when it (obviously) dies. A well-built team will never lose their Chansey because it is nigh unkillable unless used as an emergency stop to a boosted physical attacker.
I agree completely with this, Chansey's defensive prowess is completely absurd. It walls every special attacker as well as every unboosted physical attacker apart from the strongest fighting types (not to mention that it can remove status with Heal Bell or its ability). If that isn't a "significant" enough portion of the metagame, then I don't know what is.
Haven't had a single issue with Victini.
Maybe it's because Houndoom/Typhlosion and Slowbro don't really give a rats ass about Victini.
Dugtrio also revenges mad.
Either way it won't matter since he'll be OU at the end of this month or are we not going to update for OU next month? In which case yeah the ban makes sense.
Mojonbo's Knock off is also beast.
Maybe it's because Houndoom/Typhlosion and Slowbro don't really give a rats ass about Victini.
Dugtrio also revenges mad.
Either way it won't matter since he'll be OU at the end of this month or are we not going to update for OU next month? In which case yeah the ban makes sense.
Mojonbo's Knock off is also beast.
Exactly my thoughts. Heck it took my +2 Kabutops' stone edge, and, on the subject of special attackers, it took 3 CM's on my Raikou to 2HKO with Aura Sphere; and even then, I think it's possible for it to survive.
By the way, is it me, or did everyone stop using sun, Victini, and Kyuremu?
Well, if your opponent sees that you have those three Pokemon and they're not just spamming U-turn to wear down your counters, they must be pretty shit players. So, yeah, of course you have no problems against Victini when just about, if not over, half of your team counters it.
And regardless of where Victini is going to be next month, Suspect Voting begins this month, meaning that Victini has to have a clear-cut decision this month. After that, should it gravitate to OU by itself, then that's the end of that.
I knew there was a reason I loved you.
Or you could be like me and overpredict everybody because you're too used to the relative bliss that was laddering on Shoddy... :(
empoleon gets easily 2hkoed by focus blast(although only 49% of the times due to fb's shaky accuracy)and doesn't ohko kyurem in any universe(uninvested of course since we are talking about a defensive empoleon).escavalier gets ohkoed by hp fire and again doesn't ohko kyurem without significant attack investement.
chansey is the only poke in uu i can think of that clearly counters specs kyurem!
Altough every escavalier is likely gonna go for the max Atk, and yeah, kyurem is dead after rocks is iron head hits, he can swich out, escavalier cannot take his chances with pursuit since if he stays he is dead, also, most steel wall him easily and he cannot swich into drago meteor, and blizzard and focus blast are gonna take a big chuck of health so he is a one time answer at best
I believe we all can agree about chansey's overall beastness as a wall..but we can agree that its not chansey that's the problem its the evolite...I would propose banning the combo, Evolite+Chansey..so far since Gen V. we have had alot of different problems popping up, for example drizzle + swift swim, and right now drought+chlorphyll...Also back when we allowed Latias there was the immediate soul dew clause which was Latias+soul dew ban..which was the first item combo ban..right chansey is almost falling under this condition as far as walling goes..and from the posts most ppl can agree that chansey is becoming one of the most unbreakable walls in this metagame right now
Let's relax a bit about Chansey guys - sure, it's VERY potent defensively, but that doesn't mean it's broken. Toxic Spikes make it absolutely useless, Fighting-types can switch into it with impunity, while even the special attackers it walls can instead beat it by using Sub + a stat boosting move, Chestorest + a stat boosting move, or Taunt + recovery. With a little prediction you can also Trick it a Choice item. And these are the options offense has, since Chansey is absolutely horrible against stall (set-up fodder for hazards, can't do anything to defensive pokes but being phazed away).
You honestly can't expect to OHKO Chansey. You can use it as set-up fodder though.
You honestly can't expect to OHKO Chansey. You can use it as set-up fodder though.
Drizzle+SwSw's problem wasn't "the combo", but the fact people were eager to ban Drizzle than to think of other (arguably) better alternatives such as banning only the really broken abusers in Rain (Kingdra...), and was meant to be more or less temporary and not final. About Latias, back in DPPt, it was neither a Soul Dew Clause nor a combo ban: the item Soul Dew was banned, nothing could use it. Even Game Freak bans the item, by the way; it was banned in VGC 2010 yet we had all Ubers except Arceus allowed (...I wonder why).
If there's a problem here, it is neither Eviolite, nor Chansey+Eviolite. It's Chansey as awhorewhole and this "nerf X instead of banning it" mentality.
If there's a problem here, it is neither Eviolite, nor Chansey+Eviolite. It's Chansey as a
I don't propose banning anything. As long as Chansey stops some of UU's absurd special attackers and keeps the tier playable even with shit like Kyurem running around, I actually want to keep it in the tier. Is anybody stopping to think what kind of balance Chansey brings to the tier as an all-purpose check for Special Attackers and other weak-offensive Pokemon? With UU's instability and absurd power scale at the moment, I wouldn't even think about removing something that can actually takes hits.
Or better yet, is anyone capitalizing on Chansey's lack of offense by using it for setup bait with the countless UU's capable of beating it and going for a sweep right afterward?
A not so small list of Pokemon that don't give a fuck about Chansey:
Cobalion
Heracross (So your Scarf CC didn't OHKO. But I bet Band CC does. And I bet now that you understand it doesn't die at full health, you'll just bring it in at 87% instead)
Fighting types. All of them.
Sub "oh shit, Seismic Toss can't break my subs" (CM Cress, Hone Claws Kyurem)
Support Roserade
Deo-D
Venomoth
Ghosts. Again...all of them.
Mew
SubRoost Zapdos
Azelf
Victini
Snorlax
Togekiss (most of the time lol)
That's not even a comprehensive list. The problem I'm seeing is that people aren't OHKOing with the Pokemon they WANT to, and don't understand how easy it is to adapt to a wall that can literally only status and Seismic Toss. Most teams should be able to shit on Chansey for a living. Not just because it's required in this metagame, but also because it's honestly not that hard.
Or better yet, is anyone capitalizing on Chansey's lack of offense by using it for setup bait with the countless UU's capable of beating it and going for a sweep right afterward?
A not so small list of Pokemon that don't give a fuck about Chansey:
Cobalion
Heracross (So your Scarf CC didn't OHKO. But I bet Band CC does. And I bet now that you understand it doesn't die at full health, you'll just bring it in at 87% instead)
Fighting types. All of them.
Sub "oh shit, Seismic Toss can't break my subs" (CM Cress, Hone Claws Kyurem)
Support Roserade
Deo-D
Venomoth
Ghosts. Again...all of them.
Mew
SubRoost Zapdos
Azelf
Victini
Snorlax
Togekiss (most of the time lol)
That's not even a comprehensive list. The problem I'm seeing is that people aren't OHKOing with the Pokemon they WANT to, and don't understand how easy it is to adapt to a wall that can literally only status and Seismic Toss. Most teams should be able to shit on Chansey for a living. Not just because it's required in this metagame, but also because it's honestly not that hard.
-Toxic spikes beats every wall unless they aren't affected by them so thats invalid
-Fighting types have to worry about taking a thunderwave or toxic when switching in..as Flareblitz stated, his choice scarf heracross couldnt kill a chansey and it ended up paralyzing him, and thats one of the strongest fighting types we have in UU.
-a sub+stat boosting move does work..but its not hard to see coming really..and chansey doesnt work alone..mismagius is considered one of the best switchins to chansey(as long as it avoids status move) as it usually runs sub+stat boost, but most ppl would switch to their mismagius counter to beat this..with team preview its easy to see this coming as well
-Tricking this gen is way harder than it was last gen...Rarely will you see a chansey get tricked because trick users are obvious
-taunt+ recover is a rare combo as well, (mew, deoxys)not many pokes have this combo or at least bulky to use it..threatening chansey but it is easy to switch chansey right out..that combo not only works on chansey, but on alot of other pokes
-against stall, I can agree it is a set-up fodder for many entry hazrad pokes or crocune(and identical sets for other pokes)
Also for the majority of those criteria they all have to worry about switching into chansey's status moves
EDIT: I wouldnt like to propose as chansey being god or unbelievebly broken as she does have her weaknesses, but through sheer force it is much easier for chansey to wall the majority of pokes and easier to build a team around her this time around...yeah through great prediction she may lose, but she takes away most of that prediction now
-Wrong. Walls like Milotic can still fire off powerful STAB attacks, even when Toxic'd, meaning that they can potentially still take out the pokes they're supposed to wall. Chansey, however, needs multiple turns to score a KO, meaning that it will never take out the poke it's supposed to without taking massive damage from poison (especially if it carries Sub). Not to mention Steel-type walls or stuff with Rest...
-Fighting-types either have Guts, so they benefit from status (Heracross, Hariyama), or are slow enough already (Hitmontop, Machoke)
-You didn't understand my point. Special attackers Chansey walls can instead beat it by utilizing one of these strategies. It's extremely easy to make a team where every poke can beat Chansey, without the need to switch at all. Just replace two moves on your special attackers with (Chesto)Rest/ Sub + a boosting move, or Taunt + recovery. Easy.
-Fighting-types either have Guts, so they benefit from status (Heracross, Hariyama), or are slow enough already (Hitmontop, Machoke)
-You didn't understand my point. Special attackers Chansey walls can instead beat it by utilizing one of these strategies. It's extremely easy to make a team where every poke can beat Chansey, without the need to switch at all. Just replace two moves on your special attackers with (Chesto)Rest/ Sub + a boosting move, or Taunt + recovery. Easy.
Upstart
Copy Cat
This. Chansey is the defensive characteristic. I acknowledge that their are ways around chansey: Psyshocke, Knock Off, Trick, Physical attacks, substitutes. However in many ways Chansey does the same the at sun does it forces an player to compensate and arguable over compensate inorder to combat chansey. Bar Kyurem this metagame is very physically leaning with great special attackers no where to be seen. And I would beleive that it is chansey's doing. But not only does she act as the bane of specail sweeper existance she can survive almost any unboosted physical attack status/ cripple or pass one her ungodly wishes.
I don't particularly care if chansey stays or goes as I have always perfered physical attackers :) but if Chansey isn't banned under defensive characteristic, the characteristic should be removed. There is no doubt that it is the evo stone that possibly breaks Chansey and as such options are leave chansey as she is easily set up in exchange for her blobness walling abilities, ban chansey, ban eviolite, ban combo of chansey and eviolite (if possible).
On another note Kyurem definately needs to go. I don't have trouble with a specific set per say as they all to some extent irk me though the Specs set and the defensive set with spikes support escpecially trouble me. This is mostly due to the only one turn they require inorder to cause chaos. However each set requires slightly different counters or at the very least checks.
Mew and Azelf are both at least suspects for me. I am still on the fence about both. The most amazing thing about each is the versatality of each. I whole heartedly beleive that mew could be customized to dismantle any specific team. But no individual set appears to be broken. While Azelf is mew but with greater attack and speed but less bulk and a smaller movepool. Still cabale of greatly hurting any team.
Weather wise I still hate weather. I specifically hate preparing for both Hail and Sun. I only hope that banning kyurem will balance out hail. But as for sun I promote simply banning Vulpix. No drought plus chlorophyl. No particular sweeper gives me trouble. Sawsbuck imo is far more deadly then victini in the sun. My opinion of Victini remains that she hits hard but not enough ban her.
I would once again like to give a shoutout out to Nidoqueen who walls the fighting types trying to get at chansey and the rock types trying to get at the multitude of flying types populating UU.
milotic benifits from poison, so yeah its got an increase in bulk..and right now milotic's bulk is being put into question..But I can agree with SJcrew when he says chansey is needed to wall a whole bunch of special attackers because no other pokes can do what chansey does and milotic is no where near as good as chansey with or without toxic spikes..the most steel types used right now are registeel, coba, escaviler, empoleon...chansey beats about 2.5 of them...registeel if it isnt mono-attacker, coba if it isnt a physical attacker..but empoleon is beat, and escaviler beats chansey...But chansey has no business staying in on coba nor escaviler if she sees them..
Fighting types get hit by a status move and immediately you switch to your ghost/counter..of course chansey cant beat fighting types, but they never get just a free switch in like what you said..
If you build an entire team with just taunt+recovery or sub + stat up just to beat chansey, go ahead..heck you stopped chansey now you have other threats to worry about by utilizing your limited movepool..setting up on chansey isnt as easy as you make it sound..entry hazards would almost give you one shot to sweep with..sub+roost zapdos is survivor in this case..and missy might get a few shots...taunt+recover again is a RARE combo..we're looking at mew and deoxys-D who do this best and maybe im missing one or a few
And one of the BIGGEST things that makes chansey's job soo much easier is team preview..if I know what you could potential switch in on my chansey then I know what to prepare for..of course the same goes for the opponent as well lol pretty much almost any poke for that matter heh
Here's the thing though, those Pokemon can only beat Chansey if she's alone and the last Pokemon standing (bar Pursuiters or if you catch her on the switch in). Otherwise you know what she does? She Wishes/Seismic Tosses/Aromatherapys as you switch in, then switches her fat ass out to a teammate (usually Slowbro/king (who beat any Fighting-type bar Heracross) or Arcanine (who beats a good chunk of those other Pokes you listed)). And guess what? Chansey isn't dead. She still can come in on the other 4/6 of your team and do whatever the hell she pleases. Except now, when she's in, instead of Wishing/whatever as you switch in, she's going to status you (Toxic or T-Wave), and then switch her fat ass out to her teammate. And unlike other walls in the tier, nailing her with Toxic doesn't do much if she can still switch out thanks to Natural Cure. Toxic Spikes beat her? Again, eventually if she's the last Pokemon, and even then that's not a sure thing if she has Aromatherapy.
The only argument that I can make for her not being broken is the fact that you could use her as set-up bait for your Taunt + Sub user (or Sub + boost user). And that's the only argument I can come up with. The fact that she walls so much of the metagame is inherent of the Defensive characteristic. If she breaks the Defensive characteristic, then she has to go.
Also, sure, you could argue she's keeping the tier in "balance," but to me, this "balanced" tier kind of sucks. I really want to see the sweepers Chansey is supposedly keeping in check gone, as well as her blubbery pink backside.
Adamant CB Dugtrio doesn't 2HKO Chansey. While Chansey is still setup bait for the likes of Cobalion and other prominent Taunters, after having built a number of teams I feel that Chansey almost always requires overcompensation: as I see it, you need at least a booster/taunter and something to quickly dispatch of Slowbro (realistically there's not a lot that takes down Slowbro quickly that he couldn't just switch out of). Sure, Heracross has no problems with either one, but Heracross isn't an especially splashable Pokemon, and throwing him onto a team haphazardly can be a liability.
Without Chansey there are still good options out there for special walls in UU: guys like Snorlax (who I really think people should be using more often), and even Regice or Eviolite Frillish. I feel like a lack of Chansey would also help bring some love to Sand teams in UU, who would be able to take advantage of powerful special walls like Cradily or even Regirock. Finally, special attacking outside of Kyurem would actually be viable; while Mismagius is a superb sweeper with strong coverage and high Speed, she's walled out the nose by Chansey who isn't 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt even at +6. Houndoom would maybe see more usage as well. The list of special attackers who would have a better shot at really being competitive keeps going.
Without Chansey there are still good options out there for special walls in UU: guys like Snorlax (who I really think people should be using more often), and even Regice or Eviolite Frillish. I feel like a lack of Chansey would also help bring some love to Sand teams in UU, who would be able to take advantage of powerful special walls like Cradily or even Regirock. Finally, special attacking outside of Kyurem would actually be viable; while Mismagius is a superb sweeper with strong coverage and high Speed, she's walled out the nose by Chansey who isn't 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt even at +6. Houndoom would maybe see more usage as well. The list of special attackers who would have a better shot at really being competitive keeps going.
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