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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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If someone could direct me to the explicit instructions to not discuss tiering, I'd appreciate it. Since, you know, the OP kind of establishes it as a main point of discussion.
As a sidenote, I'm surprised Zapdos doesn't see more use. It has great bulk and good speed which make the SubRoost set great for Toxic and Pressure stalling. Before we point any fingers at Thundurus, remember that Zapdos's LO set always had issues with Tar and the Lati twins to begin with, so I'm not entirely convinced that Thundurus is singlehandedly keeping the bird out of OU.
EDIT: Scrafty is beastly. No doubt about it.
I'm not discussing Latios again because the arguments have been made (see NP threads 1, 2, 3, and 4). I will say that if you want counters, you should probably play Gen 3.
As a sidenote, I'm surprised Zapdos doesn't see more use. It has great bulk and good speed which make the SubRoost set great for Toxic and Pressure stalling. Before we point any fingers at Thundurus, remember that Zapdos's LO set always had issues with Tar and the Lati twins to begin with, so I'm not entirely convinced that Thundurus is singlehandedly keeping the bird out of OU.
EDIT: Scrafty is beastly. No doubt about it.
The question of whether to continue to allow suspect discussion in these threads is actually under debate right now. The main problem with suspect discussion in these threads in particular (where in UU it might have been fine) is that it's so very easy for a thread like this, which gets a lot of attention (1200+ posts, wow), to focus on one subject for a very, very long time, while attempts to change the subject get easily drowned out. And then this one train of thought devolves into something ugly... Suspect discussion is usually about one thing; "thoughts about the metagame" aren't.
More on topic, it's kind of a shame that DD Scrafty isn't used more. It can wipe unprepared teams right out, and it's not entirely trivial to prepare for it.
More on topic, it's kind of a shame that DD Scrafty isn't used more. It can wipe unprepared teams right out, and it's not entirely trivial to prepare for it.
There is such a thing as a free switch. Levitate provides an immunity to Ground-type attacks, and using U-turn or Volt Switch, a plain double switch or a switch when the opponent uses a non-damaging move, or even just switching in Latios after another team member is KOd all provide a free switch (other than hazard damage, obviously, but this scenario is apparently assuming that Stealth Rock is not on the field in the first place).
I'm no mind reader, but considering the fact that he's asked you to do exactly that twice now, I'd say that he probably does. In fact, I'd be interested in hearing this as well.
Also, could you please insert spaces between the end of each sentence and the beginning of the next? It would make your posts considerably easier to read and thus respond to.
I'm a little disappointed in myself at the moment, since I don't have any cool sets to post right now, nor do I have any really useful comments on the metagame right now, so I'll post some of the things I've noticed while laddering in order to make up for that somewhat (if anyone actually finds these observations useful, I'll consider myself absolved). I promise that I'll post some sort of interesting set later to make up for it.
Anyway, here are my observations, drawn from my laddering experiences. As such, they're probably skewed, but hopefully they're at least somewhat accurate. I personally haven't been seeing too many Drizzle-based teams, which is interesting considering the amount of controversy Drizzle has generated. I expected more people to be trying it out, if only to see for themselves whether or not it's broken. I've also seen a slight decline in Thundurus usage, which surprises me for much the same reasons as the Drizzle decline. I've seen more Sandstorm teams, and, surprisingly, a slight increase in Hippowdon usage, mostly on stall teams. Drought is the outlier this time around. I think I've played maybe one or two Drought-based teams this round.
I've definitely seen an upsurge in Salamence, to which I credit the banning of Garchomp. In addition, the discussion related to Salamence in this thread is probably related to that increase, since it seems that people are finally realizing how useful Salamence can be. Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Excadrill, Scizor, Gliscor, and Latios are still everywhere. The metagame shifts don't seem to have affected them too much. I haven't seen too many Landorus, even with Garchomp banned, which kind of surprises me. I was expecting more Landorus running all kinds of sets, from boosting sweeper to Choice Scarfed revenge killer. I've seen more than I did last round, relatively speaking, but not as much as I expected. I have noted Terrakion usage increasing, which probably means that both Landorus and Terrakion are rising to fill the niches Garchomp left and that neither one is as dominant as Garchomp.
Well, there are my (almost certainly distorted) observations, so make of them what you will. Analyze them, use them to ladder or build teams, or outright disagree with them, it's all the same to me.
Metagame. It's more interesting than Latios talk (if you have a sand team, run 252 / 252+ tar and pursuit it. It can't 2hko with surf. If you have rain, Ferro walls it to death. Not sure about sun though. Check it with CB Scizor, Mamo, scarfer. Counter it with the above, specially defensive Jirachi, and SpD roost scizor for specs versions. You have to prepare for it, and it is powerful, but it is not uber) moving on.
Landorus and Terrakion aren't as dominant because they are much easier to beat. They are still incredibly powerful (Glis / Skarm / Zong aren't really good Terrakion counters at all) but don't have the sand veil and typing that let chomp dominate and earn a spot on every other sand team. I see alot of scarfers of the two because of how they check Volca / Thundurus though. Aside from Excadrill I think sand offenses are very balanced. Rotom, CBzor, Musketeers, and Lati@s check Landorus and Skarm can really wall SDless versions with ease. Terrakion has CC so it is scarier imo but stuff like Reuniclus counters it excellently as does Mew. Priority is easy to beat it with, namely Scizor. It will beat Gliscor with SD + air balloon sometimes though. If you use Scrafty, run the DDer with ice punch. Common Gliscors just wall the bulk up version. Except for scarf Terrakion, teams really aren't prepared for it and usually just have Conk to defend against it. I reccomend spikes because it is pretty weak before moxie starts to kick in. Also drain punch > HJK for healing and not being beaten by protect Ferro and untimely misses.
Boosted water attacks. That's the main selling point of using drizzle because most sand teams don't have more than 2 resists to water and stuff like 112 Hp Rotom and Latios are pretty much 2hkoed by the stronger water attacks. I remember I was able to easily 2HKO a Blissey with Starmie after a bit of SR + Spikes with hydro pump as it did like 40+% to Blissey. Rain really has trouble with Ferrothorn though if it is paired with something like Quagsire to counter Thundurus, as more than half of the team can be walled with ease.
I've found sun really tough to use. You have to deal with the worst weather starter, stealth rock crippling most of the team, and the threat of Excadrill or Terrakion being able to pretty much 6-0 if they get a free turn. Ie you need to devote a team spot or two to espeon or forry and dugtrio, but chlorosaur is really the bomb since little on a sand team will want to switch in. I have found that most sun is really vulnerable to life orb or expert belt Latios. Usually the only steel you will see is Forry and once you bait it in with Hp fire they can't sponge any draco meteors. Heatran walls Lati in the sun but is pretty much free switches for ttar.
Landorus and Terrakion aren't as dominant because they are much easier to beat. They are still incredibly powerful (Glis / Skarm / Zong aren't really good Terrakion counters at all) but don't have the sand veil and typing that let chomp dominate and earn a spot on every other sand team. I see alot of scarfers of the two because of how they check Volca / Thundurus though. Aside from Excadrill I think sand offenses are very balanced. Rotom, CBzor, Musketeers, and Lati@s check Landorus and Skarm can really wall SDless versions with ease. Terrakion has CC so it is scarier imo but stuff like Reuniclus counters it excellently as does Mew. Priority is easy to beat it with, namely Scizor. It will beat Gliscor with SD + air balloon sometimes though. If you use Scrafty, run the DDer with ice punch. Common Gliscors just wall the bulk up version. Except for scarf Terrakion, teams really aren't prepared for it and usually just have Conk to defend against it. I reccomend spikes because it is pretty weak before moxie starts to kick in. Also drain punch > HJK for healing and not being beaten by protect Ferro and untimely misses.
Boosted water attacks. That's the main selling point of using drizzle because most sand teams don't have more than 2 resists to water and stuff like 112 Hp Rotom and Latios are pretty much 2hkoed by the stronger water attacks. I remember I was able to easily 2HKO a Blissey with Starmie after a bit of SR + Spikes with hydro pump as it did like 40+% to Blissey. Rain really has trouble with Ferrothorn though if it is paired with something like Quagsire to counter Thundurus, as more than half of the team can be walled with ease.
I've found sun really tough to use. You have to deal with the worst weather starter, stealth rock crippling most of the team, and the threat of Excadrill or Terrakion being able to pretty much 6-0 if they get a free turn. Ie you need to devote a team spot or two to espeon or forry and dugtrio, but chlorosaur is really the bomb since little on a sand team will want to switch in. I have found that most sun is really vulnerable to life orb or expert belt Latios. Usually the only steel you will see is Forry and once you bait it in with Hp fire they can't sponge any draco meteors. Heatran walls Lati in the sun but is pretty much free switches for ttar.
BOLD: Not much, if anything can counter Latios. Same goes for almost everything in OU >.>
It irritates me when people say "X counters Latios(taking Latios as the example)!" when a common move he carries will just curbstomp said "counter".
Anyway, Scrafty = Beast
I just wish he was a tiny bit stronger. 90 Attack is pretty mediocre and relying on Moxie isn't always great :L
Anyone got a good EV spread that provides balance between Speed, bulk, and power for Scrafty? You need to run Max speed to out-pace Latios, but then if you don't run max HP, you die too quickly and if you don't run max Attack you can't OHKO Gliscor with Ice Punch at +2.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Why are people still assuming that drought teams are not capable of running steel types outside of heatran or pokemon who do not abuse the weather, but can cover holes and support the team? Gliscor on drought teams is usually an easy answer to most of drought's problems when the weather isn't up. The pokemon who check latios will still check him under sunlight. Choice Band Infernape and choice scarf darmanitan work as lures for the feathery dragon due and put the hurt on with u-turn. Infernape can run mach punch and sun boosted flare blitz from either pokemon is excrutiating.
And I can't bash dugtrio enough. Sun teams do not want that pokemon. You're dedicating a team slot to a pokemon who can't even switch into tyranitar to begin with, and his only purpose is to kill t-tar (as he can't kill any of the other weather starters). The worst part? Tyranitar needs to be at around 73% of his health for dugtrio to do it or dugtrio loses. And if you're using Cb dugtrio? Forget about the game. You're handing free setup to your opponent on a platter. Just...run something else that tyranitar doesn't like messing with. Like Scrafty, for instance. Even choice specs heatran with flash cannon would be more productive.
I can't really explain how to run sun teams well. But there's currently about four drought teams hanging around the top of the ladder. And I think a certain user managed to make his way up there with nasty plot ninetales of all things (which does have offensive special presence. Don't switch in Blissey. Please don't.)
One last thing in this jumbled up post. Ninetales isn't theat frail nor is she that hard to keep healthy if you want to win the weather war. Abuse the fact that enemy weather starters will always see Ninetales as a free switch in. A burned politoed or tyranitar switching into Ninetales and SR is losing 25% of their health.
And I can't bash dugtrio enough. Sun teams do not want that pokemon. You're dedicating a team slot to a pokemon who can't even switch into tyranitar to begin with, and his only purpose is to kill t-tar (as he can't kill any of the other weather starters). The worst part? Tyranitar needs to be at around 73% of his health for dugtrio to do it or dugtrio loses. And if you're using Cb dugtrio? Forget about the game. You're handing free setup to your opponent on a platter. Just...run something else that tyranitar doesn't like messing with. Like Scrafty, for instance. Even choice specs heatran with flash cannon would be more productive.
I can't really explain how to run sun teams well. But there's currently about four drought teams hanging around the top of the ladder. And I think a certain user managed to make his way up there with nasty plot ninetales of all things (which does have offensive special presence. Don't switch in Blissey. Please don't.)
One last thing in this jumbled up post. Ninetales isn't theat frail nor is she that hard to keep healthy if you want to win the weather war. Abuse the fact that enemy weather starters will always see Ninetales as a free switch in. A burned politoed or tyranitar switching into Ninetales and SR is losing 25% of their health.
*cough*HPFightingChandelureusedasT-tarbait*cough*
It also has Fire Miss and 145 Sp.A :D
Did I mention that it also gets Trick Room for trolling Starmie and Latios?
idk, chandelure has always kind of seemed like hydreigon or haxorus, it's impossible to switch into but it's too slow to be effective against offense since a ton of stuff outspeeds it, and stall can wall it. it's probably undeserved hate but base 80 speed isn't good in this meta.
You know I am still overwhelmed by how good Scizor really is. Swords Dance + Life Orb usually forces their Gliscor/Rotom-W to deal with it. It's great for controlling the tempo and setting yourself up for a sweep. Superpower>Brick Break because it can tear through Skarmory/Ferrothorn and prevent entry hazards.
With Mach Punch + U-turn Infernape and Volt Change Thundurus, it's fun!
With Mach Punch + U-turn Infernape and Volt Change Thundurus, it's fun!
I really wanna know a good EV spread/Nature for Scrafty too, i didn't find a good one for me yet :(
Anything that switches in and takes a hit and can heal up from there can probably not care too much about the other moves, since it's already locked into whatever. SpecsLatios might not have specific counters, but it's pretty safely screwed over with some good prediction. (And yes, I know that argument can go both ways, but a misprediction just leaves you, at worst, a Pokemon down and free to switch in a different check to whichever move it's used.)
As for people discussing DD Scrafty, honestly, I've been hating the Bulk Up version more. Paired up with either CM Latias or Quiver Volcarona, it's absolutely sickening. A few times, I've had my phazer and TrickScarfer killed, only to find myself completely and utterly setup on by one or the other, finally find a way to force it out, only to have the other come in and setup. Scraftarona is the one thing I hate seeing the most at the moment, I think.
I've also been meaning to look at running a Drought team lately, so might have to consider that one, but any thoughts on what approach to take with Ninetales? I hate having to rely on Hypnosis with my Bronzong already, so I'd rather steer clear of that. Is NPTales reliable at all? I can imagine it'd take some prediction, but that's not a problem. What kind of set would be best for that?
Nitpick or not i have to show you that Ttar can always get the ohko right?
And as everyone else said there are at least 2 perfect counters(3 in rain)and a lot of checks!
Anyway let's stop this discussion 'cause i am sure that you know Ttar's checks so no point in me telling them to you...
From all my post this was the thing that you decided to talk about?Ttar always ohkoes so why do you bring this up?And if it satisfies you then sry i had to put a most in the sentence ok?
He didn't ask twice for checks and counters...At first he asked for counters only and then he included checks also!And finally i will try to put spaces between fullstops but i don't really think that without spaces my postst are not easily readable...
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
There are a bunch of popular OU pokemon who are slower than chandelure and can't risk taking a hit from it. Substitute lets chandy handle the things that switch into it a bit easier. Flame charge turns it into a monstrous late game cleaner, fixing the speed problem.
Life orb Scizor is everything I expect Scizor to do. It's especially hilarious when ferrothorn comes in and attempts to set up hazards on you, only for your opponent to find himself on the losing end of the game if they don't have a heatran, Rotom-H, or Rotom-W.
From what I've seen, NPTales can work once you get rid of the opponent's weather setter, but nasty plot allows it to screw with the opponent's weather setter all on it's own. +2 HP fighting is a solid 2HKO on 252/80 tyranitar, where as he is slower so he won't get off the 2HKO with crunch (these variants almost never carry stone edge). Choice band tyranitar is ohko'd after one layer of rocks. Choice Specs Politoed is also ohko'd after one layer of spikes or SR through the use of energy ball.
Fire blast deals a minimum of 49% to Blissey. Energy ball will handle pretty much all of the slower pokemon who resist fire blast, save for possibly kingdra. If it wasn't for thick fat, snorlax wouldn't be a problem either. However, that's nothing a life orb cannot fix.
Drought teams desperately need the hazards as you can tell.
I just post to restate that dd scrafty is a MONSTER. If you can get screens up and a good switch in (example:ttar, meteor fired latios) then you should be fine to set up 2 dd which usually ends up being gg.
DD scrafty
item: leftovers
Ability: shed skin
Nature: Jolly
evs: 46 hp/252 attack/212 speed
Moves:
HJK
Crunch/rest
DD
Ice punch
It's enough to outspeed 299 scarfs at +2 and has a nice bulk
Going with my set I use
DD scrafty
item: leftovers
Ability: shed skin
Nature: Jolly
evs: 46 hp/252 attack/212 speed
Moves:
HJK
Crunch/rest
DD
Ice punch
It's enough to outspeed 299 scarfs at +2 and has a nice bulk
^
Scrafty has to run absolute maximum speed because it happens to outrun Thundurus/Tornadus by exactly one point.
And even with 4/0 Scrafty is decently bulky - he's only ever so slightly less bulky than a 252/0/0 Rotom Appliance.
Scrafty has to run absolute maximum speed because it happens to outrun Thundurus/Tornadus by exactly one point.
I think DD Scrafty is one of those Pokemon who is defined not by his EV spread, but by his item. If you want him to be a bit bulky, use Leftovers. If you're looking for power use Life Orb. You're pretty much shoehorned into a 4/252/252 spread because max speed is necessary for the reasons I've already stated and max attack is necessary because Scrafty hits like a puny little girl otherwise. By happy coincidence, 4 HP hits a Leftovers number if you're into that kind of thing...
And even with 4/0 Scrafty is decently bulky - he's only ever so slightly less bulky than a 252/0/0 Rotom Appliance.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Landorus is base 101 Spe and Thudurus is probably going to Ubers while Tornadus is almost UU. At this point an effective EV spread could be 60 HP\ 252 Atk\ 196 Spe with a Jolly nature, to outspeed Landorus and below after a DD. The problem is that Lati@s and Gengar will still force you to run at least 244 Spe or you'll be easily revenge killed by them.
I also prefer Moxie and a lum berry, as if your opponent decides to sacrifice something, then at +2 Atk Scrafty can sweep teams with ease.
I also prefer Moxie and a lum berry, as if your opponent decides to sacrifice something, then at +2 Atk Scrafty can sweep teams with ease.
So with 60HP/252ATK/196SPD with +2 you can outspeed anything non-scarfed/Excadrill ?
I'm not really good with ev spread, sorry. But with Thundurus (maybe) gones the only real counters for Scrafty (with the above spread) will be only Latios and Gengar ? That sounds very good and pretty antimeta :D
I'm not really good with ev spread, sorry. But with Thundurus (maybe) gones the only real counters for Scrafty (with the above spread) will be only Latios and Gengar ? That sounds very good and pretty antimeta :D
haunter
Banned deucer.
With that spread, after a DD, you just outspeed positive natured base 100 (Salamence, Jirachi etc.) and Landorus. There are many Pokemon above that speed tier, notably Starmie, Virizion, Terrakion, Infernape, Lati@s and Gengar. This is why max Spe is almost a necessity for DD Scrafty (you still fail at outspeeding Starmie btw).
If you manage to get 2 DD then only scarfers, Deoxys-S and Excadrill in SS will outspeed Scrafty.
If you manage to get 2 DD then only scarfers, Deoxys-S and Excadrill in SS will outspeed Scrafty.
Personally, I don't see Scrafty as something that's supposed to fight Lati@s.
The idea of Scrafty is to scare out TTar and to sweep teams after faster threats are gone. Team Scrafty up with a good Scarf revenger - ScarfTar comes to mind - and you've got a pretty sickening setup sweeper.
At least, that's how I've seen it. That's also why I personally find the Bulk Up set more threatening than the Dragon Dance set.
The idea of Scrafty is to scare out TTar and to sweep teams after faster threats are gone. Team Scrafty up with a good Scarf revenger - ScarfTar comes to mind - and you've got a pretty sickening setup sweeper.
At least, that's how I've seen it. That's also why I personally find the Bulk Up set more threatening than the Dragon Dance set.
I'd like to make a point for my friend zapdos. I really don't get how it is not used anymore. It's still the god of all scizor counters, gets thunder to work with in the rain, pressurestalls, can subroost, and toxic. Great switch in to a -2 latios as well.
I see what you did there haunter.
It's a shame that nobody uses mamoswine. Tie a scarf around one of his tusks and he becomes a phenomenal thundurus check. Icicle crash flinches are great too.
Hell, I run shard, spear and crash alongside EQ. I don't really need stone edge, and all three moves have specific uses.
There are several non steel types that can sponge his meteors and do something nasty in return. You need a rough minimum of base 110 HP and 80 special defense to tank one, and possibly a second depending on damage rolls. An inverse stat layout would work too, but I haven't done calcs for that. Something like 70 HP / 120 Spdef...
Notables:
Cresselia
DM fails to 2HKO specially defensive cress. If the drop didn't occur it'd still be a 3HKO. Cress has moonlight and thunderwave to cripple it. You can also run trick as a failsafe, make cress a special wall for stuff like rotom-W as well. Moonlight nerf sucks though.
Chansey
Softboiled and twave. Standard max hp and def spread is 3HKOed by psyshock.
Gastrodon
Can tank DM and recover stall. Toxic and ice beam if you want.
Mandibuzz
Easily tanks DMs, but not with rocks up.
Reuniclus
Implausible/unorthodox, but possible. Specially defensive set can use recover, twave, trick, trick room and shadow ball.
Snorlax
Band pursuit.
Or you could just fodder something and revenge it with scarftar. I'm sure weavile and scarf metagross would work too.
Notables:
Cresselia
DM fails to 2HKO specially defensive cress. If the drop didn't occur it'd still be a 3HKO. Cress has moonlight and thunderwave to cripple it. You can also run trick as a failsafe, make cress a special wall for stuff like rotom-W as well. Moonlight nerf sucks though.
Chansey
Softboiled and twave. Standard max hp and def spread is 3HKOed by psyshock.
Gastrodon
Can tank DM and recover stall. Toxic and ice beam if you want.
Mandibuzz
Easily tanks DMs, but not with rocks up.
Reuniclus
Implausible/unorthodox, but possible. Specially defensive set can use recover, twave, trick, trick room and shadow ball.
Snorlax
Band pursuit.
Or you could just fodder something and revenge it with scarftar. I'm sure weavile and scarf metagross would work too.
It's a shame that nobody uses mamoswine. Tie a scarf around one of his tusks and he becomes a phenomenal thundurus check. Icicle crash flinches are great too.
Hell, I run shard, spear and crash alongside EQ. I don't really need stone edge, and all three moves have specific uses.
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