I feel like scarf pokes still have an important place on the ladder. In 4th gen a scarf poke was your ultimate answer to any stat booster. Now with weather speed boosters this is becoming less the case. But scarf'd fighting moves are still as valuable as ever as is shown by the popularity of scarf terrakion. And a scarf draco meteor is still always something to fear coming off a latios or a hydreigon.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Lesson learned, Excadrill beats Scarfers bar Deoxys-S.
Edit: @tubbabllubba
1) You name is awesome
2) IIRC Terrakion has base 129 attack with base 108 speed and STAB on Close Combat and Rock Slide/Stone Edge. Not many pokemon are that tailor-made for Choice Scarf and I can't recall any others that are Fighting types at the moment
3) The existance of Sand teams made fast fighting type moves popular, not neccesarily scarf but you definitely had the right idea. I wouldn't be surprised if Gamefreak made Conkeldurr to bully Excadrill with Mach Punch.
4) Draco Meteor is scary from Latios and Hydreigon with or without a scarf, that's why special defensive steels and Tar are pretty common now.
I believe Mienshao is another Fighting Type that is a decent scarfer. It is pretty much a mini-Terrakion in terms of stats, but its offensive stats are pretty much on par, with 125 Atk and 105 Speed. U-turn and Regeneration are two advantages it has over Terrakion, as well as being able to utilize HP Ice.
Mienshaoo definitely has the better ability (the Muskateer trio got competitively trolled with Justified) but what useful KOs does Mienshao get with Hp Ice? Too bad neither one can outrun Drill in Sand...
Gliscor.
I'm glad someone brought that up. Isn't it rediculous that people are now running HP ice on their random physical sweepers just to deal with Gliscor? In a way, it's cool because your not walled by Gliscor anymore. But it's a desperate attempt to run an odd attack just to counter one pokemon. Gliscor gets the most annoying pokemon award of the generation after that. Can't wait until I start seeing everyone use HP ice on their Excadrills too.
Thundurus still limits offensive teams, albeit not as much as Excadrill. I was suggesting we could ban both if we want absolute diversity in the metagame. Thundurus still has Thunder Wave to pack and a dangerous Nasty Plot set in which not many viable fast Pokemon can check. There will always be faster Pokemon than Thundurus but how many are actually effective outside of Starmie? I still think Thundurus is part of the non-existence of heavy offense, which is why I think it should get the boot along with Excadrill.
On the topic of Mienshao, it's one of my favorite Pokemon to use, but it's being held back due to the current team structures in the metagame. I've been using a cool set with Sword Dance + U-turn along with Regenerator, its almost built to be the perfect scout because the Life orb damage doesn't thwart its offensive prowess much. Sword Dance + High Jump kick also hurts a lot and you can practically time it properly to sweep an entire bulky team. Once this round is over, I can almost predict Mienshao being a top tier threat with proper support. 105 Speed is quite the let down though, I wish it had 5 more base speed to beat Virizon, Terrakion, and speed tie with the Lati@s.
Nobody will start to run HP Ice on their Excadrill, ever. Max Sp.Atk (neutral nature, 252 EVs) vs. Impish Gliscor with no Sp.Def EVs in Sand only does 79.1-93.8%. That's almost always a guaranteed OHKO with Rocks, but that's the problem. Almost isn't a good thing. It's completely not worth it.
Correction: Mienshao really doesn't have any other option outside of Hi Jump Kick, Stone Edge, Swords Dance, and U-Turn. It "might as well" use Hidden Power Ice to destroy any Gliscor coming in it's way, and quite frankly, it does such a good job at this. Being in charge of the Mienshao analysis, I can confidently say that a standard Naive attacker will hit harder or as hard as an unboosted Adamant Swords Dance Lucario, depending on the EV Spread.
I can also attest to Mienshao's Swords Dance set being effective, if obvious faster threats have been eliminated. After a Swords Dance and Life Orb, Mienshao OHKOes some of the most important walls in OU. Including but NOT limited to Skarmory, Jirachi, and some variants of Hippowdon. In the last slot, Mienshao can still utilize HP Ice, or go with Baton Pass to escape dangerous situations and pass the boost to something like Scizor.
There is a difference between using Hidden Power Ice on almost any old physical sweeper than Pokemon like Mienshao or Archeops.
Metagame related: yeah, Excadrill screws up speed tiers pretty bad, but unlike Specs Kingdra in the past, this isn't the reason for considering its exile, and I am also extremely neutral on the condition of Thundurus in the metagame.
I can also attest to Mienshao's Swords Dance set being effective, if obvious faster threats have been eliminated. After a Swords Dance and Life Orb, Mienshao OHKOes some of the most important walls in OU. Including but NOT limited to Skarmory, Jirachi, and some variants of Hippowdon. In the last slot, Mienshao can still utilize HP Ice, or go with Baton Pass to escape dangerous situations and pass the boost to something like Scizor.
There is a difference between using Hidden Power Ice on almost any old physical sweeper than Pokemon like Mienshao or Archeops.
Metagame related: yeah, Excadrill screws up speed tiers pretty bad, but unlike Specs Kingdra in the past, this isn't the reason for considering its exile, and I am also extremely neutral on the condition of Thundurus in the metagame.
Considering that I've been seeing more mienshao than infernape lately(you guys should use him), he seems to be pretty popular.
However, what does SD Mienshao have over a boosting Infernape at all? Hi jump kick? If Nape has problems with setup sweeping, then what about mienshao?
However, what does SD Mienshao have over a boosting Infernape at all? Hi jump kick? If Nape has problems with setup sweeping, then what about mienshao?
The basis of set up sweepers such as Infernape and Mienshao is to attempt to force a Pokemon out, and use this opportunity to boost with the respective move. If one isn't very confident in this method, dual screens from the likes of Latios, Espeon, and Uxie supports them very much.
Also, Mienshao doesn't have to function WITH a Swords Dance boost to be effective. Attacker first, sweeper later. Same with Infernape and Weavile.
Haven't played since Late Round 3 (waited for metagame to settle down: clearly hasn't): I can understand why Speed Boost Blaziken got the boot but why did Blaze Blaziken get blanket banned as well?
I think that the power creep kind of hides this fact: When a Pokemon itself (Movepool and base stats) is fantastic and it receives a fantastic ability, you get problems like this. Sand Rush Excadrill is another good example: the ability is good and the pokemon is good, but when you put the pieces together the synergy is phenomenal.
But it seems like rather than trying to stop the synergy ("complex bans"), the Pokemon itself is refused admission. As more and more Pokemon are introduced, you're going to need a more complex system to deal with them. This has been handled wonderfully in the tiering system:
4th Gen: Uber > OU > BL > UU > NU
5th Gen: Uber > OU > BL > UU > RUB > RU > NU
Two new tiers have been made (or rather in the process of) to deal with 152 new pokemon, maybe 50~ items, and a bunch of new abilities, or abilities in places where they didn't used to be (DW). The tiering system is undeniably complex right now, so why isn't the method of regulating the meta do the same with it's bans? I don't know, Blaziken is a good wallbreaker with Blaze, but it's not amazing. Speed Boost is awesome but not game breaking: Yanmega, Ninjask, Sharpedo. Only when you have BOTH do you get something troublesome.
If my concept hasn't been made clear: here's a Yugioh metaphor. "Exodia, the forbidden One" is a monster than when in the hand with the 4 other pieces of Exodia, you automatically win right then and there. Because of this, a deck is limited to only have 1 copy of the each of the 5 pieces in their deck. But, if you take out "Exodia, the forbidden One", and use only the four limbs, there's nothing remarkable about them. You could easily just run the maximum amount of copies in a deck (3 is the max) of the 4 other pieces with no harm to your opponent: they can't really do much to your opponent. They do nothing other than act as simple effect-less monsters, and having a rather small attack and defense. The only thing they could do is bluff to your opponent . Thus, it's the synergy they have with "Exodia, the Forbidden One" that they get their power from (Konami neutered their synergy by limiting each piece).
I don't understand why entire Pokemon need to be entirely banned because their primary competitive abilities complement them so well that everyone thinks their OP? Ban Speed Boost Blaziken and Sand Veil Garchomp if the meta can't handle them but (my bottom line) don't make foolish blanket bans on Pokemon. You can easily just prevent users from using the ability in the ladder rules.
My partially educated rant is over.
Edit: Sorry if I misunderstood something (I probably did given how much I said >.<)
I think that the power creep kind of hides this fact: When a Pokemon itself (Movepool and base stats) is fantastic and it receives a fantastic ability, you get problems like this. Sand Rush Excadrill is another good example: the ability is good and the pokemon is good, but when you put the pieces together the synergy is phenomenal.
But it seems like rather than trying to stop the synergy ("complex bans"), the Pokemon itself is refused admission. As more and more Pokemon are introduced, you're going to need a more complex system to deal with them. This has been handled wonderfully in the tiering system:
4th Gen: Uber > OU > BL > UU > NU
5th Gen: Uber > OU > BL > UU > RUB > RU > NU
Two new tiers have been made (or rather in the process of) to deal with 152 new pokemon, maybe 50~ items, and a bunch of new abilities, or abilities in places where they didn't used to be (DW). The tiering system is undeniably complex right now, so why isn't the method of regulating the meta do the same with it's bans? I don't know, Blaziken is a good wallbreaker with Blaze, but it's not amazing. Speed Boost is awesome but not game breaking: Yanmega, Ninjask, Sharpedo. Only when you have BOTH do you get something troublesome.
If my concept hasn't been made clear: here's a Yugioh metaphor. "Exodia, the forbidden One" is a monster than when in the hand with the 4 other pieces of Exodia, you automatically win right then and there. Because of this, a deck is limited to only have 1 copy of the each of the 5 pieces in their deck. But, if you take out "Exodia, the forbidden One", and use only the four limbs, there's nothing remarkable about them. You could easily just run the maximum amount of copies in a deck (3 is the max) of the 4 other pieces with no harm to your opponent: they can't really do much to your opponent. They do nothing other than act as simple effect-less monsters, and having a rather small attack and defense. The only thing they could do is bluff to your opponent . Thus, it's the synergy they have with "Exodia, the Forbidden One" that they get their power from (Konami neutered their synergy by limiting each piece).
I don't understand why entire Pokemon need to be entirely banned because their primary competitive abilities complement them so well that everyone thinks their OP? Ban Speed Boost Blaziken and Sand Veil Garchomp if the meta can't handle them but (my bottom line) don't make foolish blanket bans on Pokemon. You can easily just prevent users from using the ability in the ladder rules.
My partially educated rant is over.
Edit: Sorry if I misunderstood something (I probably did given how much I said >.<)
If the tiering system is already complex, the implementation of complex bans will make it exponentially more complex. Yes, Blaziken probably wouldn't be Uber without Speed Boost. But why should Blaziken be treated differently from any other pokemon? At that point, we'd end up tiering every single pokemon based on their abilities. For example, let's say I want to use Politoed in UU. Well, it's OU with Drizzle, but it certainly wouldn't be without. So we say that you can use Politoed without Drizzle in UU. What about Darmanitan? I'd be willing to bet that Daruma Mode or whatever Darmanitan would be RU or UU or perhaps even NU. So we tier that differently.
Now we have the complexity of the tiers multiplied by the complexity of the bans. Everything becomes exponentially worse.
In fact, the basis of your argument -- the complexity of the tiers -- is probably one of the strongest reasons not to implement complex bans.
Now we have the complexity of the tiers multiplied by the complexity of the bans. Everything becomes exponentially worse.
In fact, the basis of your argument -- the complexity of the tiers -- is probably one of the strongest reasons not to implement complex bans.
The difference between Mienshao and Terrakion/Infernape is that Mienshao is more of a hit and run attacker than a sweeper. My favorite shao set is HJK / HP ice / fake out / u-turn. How many of the Mienshao that you've faced have switched in and used fake out > u-turn repeatedly? If your team has bug/fighting weaknesses and is stally he can be extremely disruptive.
He can be an effective sweeper though. Swords dance sets are horrifyingly powerful, and he has so many variations. If more people used Mienshao creatively he'd become notorious for his versatility. SubPass, SubDrain, scarf... a stallbreaker set might be possible as well: Taunt + u-turn / HJK / HP ice, like Lee's Hydreigon set.
Just imagine if he had extremespeed...
I hate this argument. Why the hell would we choose to complicate things like this? If we were to separate pokemon by their ability, I'd imagine that it would only apply to ones we'd otherwise ban. Tier blaze blaziken separately, but why the hell would you put sheer force conkeldurr in RU? On what basis would this be done?
He can be an effective sweeper though. Swords dance sets are horrifyingly powerful, and he has so many variations. If more people used Mienshao creatively he'd become notorious for his versatility. SubPass, SubDrain, scarf... a stallbreaker set might be possible as well: Taunt + u-turn / HJK / HP ice, like Lee's Hydreigon set.
Just imagine if he had extremespeed...
I hate this argument. Why the hell would we choose to complicate things like this? If we were to separate pokemon by their ability, I'd imagine that it would only apply to ones we'd otherwise ban. Tier blaze blaziken separately, but why the hell would you put sheer force conkeldurr in RU? On what basis would this be done?
this is the idea against complex bans. we could go manaphy without rest and tailglow are allowed in OU if we go by complex bans. (lets be honest the only reason people dont like manaphy is +3 boosting move and hydrorest).
banning only a part of a pokemon doesnt work, because while its those factors, unless that factor breaks EVERY pokemon that has that factor (ie Moody), then that pokemon is the only broken thing.
sure blaziken without sb isnt broken, but you cant say speed boost is broken, because look at yanmega, ninjask, and sharpedo (all of which in ru and not anywhere near broken in UU).
I'm not saying ban speed boost entirely, I'm saying ban blaziken + speed boost. Banning move combinations is ridiculous. They're part of the pokemon. While you can make the same argument for abilities, some pokemon play completely different depending on ability. Breloom for example.
It wouldn't get out of hand because we'd make a conscientious effort to regulate it. Sure, there might be randoms calling for all kinds of complex bans once we do, but we already have randoms calling for all kinds of ridiculous bans. We made Aldaron's Proposal work and we could make this work as well.
It wouldn't get out of hand because we'd make a conscientious effort to regulate it. Sure, there might be randoms calling for all kinds of complex bans once we do, but we already have randoms calling for all kinds of ridiculous bans. We made Aldaron's Proposal work and we could make this work as well.
randoms calling for ridiculous bans normally dont go through. and many people (me included) dont even like aldarons proposal. and abilities are also a part of the pokemon... pokemon also play completely differently based on what moves they have. gliscor for example plays, imo, completely different before when it had roost compared to now.
and aldarons proposal is different compared to blaziken ban, because aldarons proposal saved both drizzle, which would have made sand/sun completely over power if banned, or prevented so many bans on the swift swimers. speed boost ken affects blaziken alone.
and aldarons proposal is different compared to blaziken ban, because aldarons proposal saved both drizzle, which would have made sand/sun completely over power if banned, or prevented so many bans on the swift swimers. speed boost ken affects blaziken alone.
Roost Gliscor is the Sand veil variant. Non Roost Gliscor is the Poison Heal variant, AKA Dream World Gliscor.
I don't agree with banning pokemon + ability combinations, but generally, complex bans aren't bad if we can regulate them.
I don't agree with banning pokemon + ability combinations, but generally, complex bans aren't bad if we can regulate them.
We could realistically ban Pokémon + Ability combinations as long as it was a one-way route. We could add specific Pokemon + Ability combinations to a ban list but not allow lesser used Pokémon + Ability combinations in lower tiers (Water Absorb Politoed in UU). This would allow a wider variety of Pokémon to be used in OU/UU without overcomplicating the tiering process.
The real problem with Pokémon + Ability combinations is the selective neutering of Pokémon. Why should we stop at banning Pokémon + Ability combinations when we could ban Pokémon + Move combinations or Pokémon + Item combinations? Abilities are just as much a part of the Pokémon as any other aspect.
The real problem with Pokémon + Ability combinations is the selective neutering of Pokémon. Why should we stop at banning Pokémon + Ability combinations when we could ban Pokémon + Move combinations or Pokémon + Item combinations? Abilities are just as much a part of the Pokémon as any other aspect.
1st swift swim+ drizzle was banned. Now people are suspecting exadrill for being broken because of its ability. (basically sand rush + sand stream). So lets say exadrill ability gets banned making fast pokemon and scarfers more "viable".Let's be honest who will use Sand force Exadrill.
Then What about clorophyll. Lets say arise in sun teams happen, then ppl will think clorophyll is "broken" for the same reasons Exadrill is . Then it'll probably get banned.
So the point is Exadrill isnt whats broken. Its his ability. So i say just ban all abilities relating to speed boosting affected by weather.
Then What about clorophyll. Lets say arise in sun teams happen, then ppl will think clorophyll is "broken" for the same reasons Exadrill is . Then it'll probably get banned.
So the point is Exadrill isnt whats broken. Its his ability. So i say just ban all abilities relating to speed boosting affected by weather.
Exactly! Why go through all that trouble? It really makes no sense. As a community, we're getting to the point that Banning Abilities may become fine as long as the ability itself is broken and not just the Pokemon. While that really only applies to Moody, Weather Abilities, and possibly Shadow Tag, it's a help of a lot more simple than complex bans as it will eventually get to the point of "Rayquaza is allowed in OU but it's not allowed to use any Stat-boosting moves~" That literally is the next step. Moves are just as much a part of a Pokemon as Abilities.
Pokemon & Abilities should be banned separately. I applauded Smogon for banning Blaziken outright instead of going the complex route. I can only hope they do the same when the Cave Area of Dream World opens & we get Rough Skin Garchomp.
That's a lot of spelling errors, but okay, let's take Sand Throw. Excadrill is "broken" with it, but wait! Stoutland sure isn't! If you try to ban most abilities, you'll find that a LOT of Pokemon with those abilities are far from broken. Don't even try to tell me Sunflora & Tropius are even close to broken with Chlorophyll.
If the ability itself isn't broken, it's the Pokemon that's broken. So ban Excadrill or Venusaur. Or better yet, just ban Drizzle, Drought, Sand Stream, & Snow Warning. Again, it's the same reason Blaziken was banned & not Speed Boost. Yanmega, Sharpedo, & Ninjask are nowhere near broken with it.
This is exactly what I debunked in my previous post.
I'd make a picture but I'll settle for this:
Speed Boost + Blaziken: Broken
Speed Boost + Any other SB Poke (Ninjask, Yanmega, Sharpedo): Not Broken
Blaziken + Any other ability it currently gets (Blaze): Not Broken
Neither Speed Boost nor Blaziken are broken. They are both merely good. It is their combination/synergy that is broken. We know from experience that Blaze Blaziken was inferior to Blaze Infernape in Gen. 4. That's not explicitly true in Gen. 5 but I don't think anyone can prove that Blaziken got such a boost from HJK and it's new toys that simply outclasses Ape in every which way possible (which is false: Ape has Priority, Ken does not).
I think regulating by abilities is fine as there is precedent for it (Moody Ban Drizzle+SwSw) , and there are at most 3 abilities any given Pokemon has. Regulating by moves is generally ridiculous, although not unheard of: Evasion and OHKO clauses. The way you're speaking of Manaphy though is not the same as these clauses and isn't a good example. How many other Pokemon have Hydration + Tail Glow + Rest + 100/100/100 defenses? On top of that, Manaphy doesn't have a second ability while Blaziken DOES.
@Woodchuck: The complication is only partially true. The upper tiers are easier (where less things are banned) and the lower tiers (where a lot of things can't make it because of usage stats, meaning you avoid the need to make some of them). You're only going to need to address overwhelming combinations for bans, but I think if you really wanted to tier AND ability, it'd be quite easy to do. I think the computer could easily keep track of the amount of time a Pokemon is used with a certain ability although I can't confirm it. It seems easy if you can block someone from using ability/move combinations for illegality, imo.
@soul_survivor: It doesn't matter if "no one is going to use Force Excadrill". If Rush Excadrill is game-breaking kick it out. You shouldn't be making decisions on an all or nothing basis (hence the limit and semi-limit in YGO). You can nerf something enough for it to still be managable without completely banning it.
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Someone explain to me where this logic comes from. I'm going to be a broken record by the end of the day (punt unintended). If the Pokemon is manageable without the ability, and the ability has also been given to other manageable pokemon, neither of them can be the problem. You have evidence that Blaziken is a manageable threat with Blaze and you have other Pokemon with Speed Boost who are manageable threats so it must be some combination of what the ability does and what the Pokemon does that's the problem.
No. Just no.
Most people just don't want complex bans like that. It doesn't matter if you can do it because the same thing can be said about anything bannable. We can bring back any uber pokemon into OU if we get rid of enough on it. However, the spirit of complex bans are another thing entirely. The "Spirit" of the metagame is the reasoning of said bans. Is it in the spirit of the metagame that we participate in these kinds of complex bans. Is it within reason that we do these bans. The supermajority of Smogon say no. We can nerf something enough for it to still be manageble without completely banning it but we wont because to the supermajority, there is no sound reason to do so.
This is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Don't you get it? What would be the point of tiering when we can just nerf all the overpowered pokemon to fit the needs of the corresponding lower tier? Now I'm not saying Excadrill is broken (because it isn't by any stretch of imagination) but for the sake of argument, let's say that the consensus was that Excadrill is just too fast, and too strong to be in OU. Well, what would we do? By your logic:
Sand rush: Not broken (Lillipup gets it and he obviously isn't broken)
Excadrill + Sand Rush: Broken (the imaginary consensus)
Excadrill + any other ability: Not broken (Awkward speed essentially gives it Haxorus syndrome, but worse)
Does that mean we ban Excadrill and Sand rush? No it doesn't. It means we ban Excadrill. Now back to reality, this is literally the exact same situation as Blaziken, so why is it that no one who wants to ban Excadrill (or too little people to notice) has proposed an Excadrill+Sand Rush ban? It's because complex bans are retarded.
The point of tiering is to see which pokemon are the most broken, and then prohibit their use in order to keep the game stable, not put ridiculous handicaps on them because of our views are jaded by the fact that gen 4 OU was supposedly "the most stable thing ever". Just because you want to use Blaziken in UU, doesn't mean we would take the fundamentals of tiering, bend it over, and do unmentionable things to it.
EDIT: Ninja'ed in a way, by KurashiDragon <.<
You just have to convince them there is a reason. Which is exactly what I'm trying to do now.
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