england riots

[xenu]

anyone following these? a few days ago a man in Tottenham in London (apparently an armed drug dealer) was shot dead by the Metropolitan police. a protest against this turned into a full-scale riot, leading to looting and other criminal activity amidst the chaos.

i haven't researched the riots too much but personally i think the rioting is an example of macabre opportunism and is completely unjustified, the 'rioters' being criminal looters.

anybody here from london? it could be interesting to hear from you. do you think the riots are justified, considering the original aim of the protest? is it fair for the african-british community to be referring to racial profiling as the reason for the riots? do you think the emergency services could've done more?

 

[DM]

Fish and I picked the perfect time to come visit, didn't we

or I should say, the police picked the perfect time to shoot that guy

 

[cookie]

this shit is happening more or less on my doorstep lol

it is nothing more than opportunistic looting and mindless violence, if you think otherwise then just look at the rioters' "targets"

there may have been tension in tottenham that escalated, possibly even due to things like budget cuts to youth programmes, but I really really doubt that the same people who are looting rice and mobile phones are in this for any sort of protest

 

[Optimusje]

Time to kill everyones mood here

 

[verbatim]

Could someone fill me in as to why the rioters used the shooting of an armed drug dealer to riot. Did they blame racism, or was it just he's a father and we conveniently forgot he was armed and dealing drugs?

Also, I have ZERO understanding of politics across the ocean but I'd like the views of those that do on sending in the military? I've heard that the police have really become disliked over there and I'm wondering if the military would have success, or if it would be to excessive.

 

[Shining_Latios]

This is all over the news. It's a bit confusing to be honest.

 

[Raverist]

The use of the military is excessive indeed.

While I should be glad I'm in Scotland where we're too lazy to riot, the thugs here have long since forgot the meaning of the riot. It started when some skinhead (BAN ME PLEASE) saw a demonstration on the drug dealer's murder (it turns out the cops opened fire when he resisted arrest and he never used his gun either) and decided to use it as an excuse to rape the local surroundings, burning shit and looting like it's a fucking game.

Hell, there's even a vid of some thugs helping a kid to his feet before nicking the stuff out his bag, which is just the sort of behaviour that deserves toxic doses of tear gas followed by a hail of baton rounds, maybe even some shield bashing to be sure.

 

[Dan Dan]

I like how everyone knows exactly what's going on when the police inquiry onto Mark Duggan's death is still ongoing. In fact the IPCC just released a statement saying there's no evidence that he opened fire on the police. The peaceful protest on Saturday afternoon was hijacked by the usual suspects looking for a fight. We caught a glimpse of it during the student protests earlier in the year, but this is on another level. I think the police were caught offguard the last couple of night, but there are 16000 out tonight opposed to the 6000 last night.

I believe it's mostly an oppotunistic, crowd mentality that everyone else is doing it and not getting caught, so why not?

An interesting interview

I just hope no one sees themselves as as John McClain-esque vigilante and take it into their own hands.

@evan - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

 

[GlassAbsol]

I live in the North of England where there isn't any rioting really but the riots that started in London have been seen as an excuse for mindless violence across many larger cities to begin. Outside of London, the small 'riots' have been quelled rather easily but in London, it was a rather peaceful protest that was Hijacked by Hoodlums, and basically scum. These people are what we call Chavs, in the Oxford English Dictionary, a Chav is defined as being an acronym for Council Housed And Violent. Rather Appropriate, all Chav's are cowards otherwise they are not proper Chavs as it is a mindset rather than a Socio-Economic label. I digress however.
All sports have their associated Hooligans, and Football (soccer) over here is no different, but with there being no Football to go and Hooliganise, these oppurtunistic Chavs and Scum are therefore taking it out on completely innocent people. They burned down an entire building in Tottenham and all 26 Families (I think the news said) were saved which is a miracle really. It is utterly atrocious.
The same thing happened at the Student Fees Protest. It was a peaceful protest to oppose the Government increasing the Maximum Tuition fees that could be charged to £9000 per year. Being an almost 3 fold increase from the previous maximum, there was a strong opposition. They held a protest, and then Some people, clearly the mentally backwards or the Socially inept decided that to prove their point, they needed mindless violence to support their cause. They destroyed any hope of the Fees being reduced, because if you move from diplomacy to violence, clearly your argument wasn't well supported and you are too immature to deal with adult discussion.
Utterly abominable and so many innocent people, bystanders have been affected and yet it continues with the rioters giving no thought to the people who work in those shops, the people who live in those houses.
I hope that anyone here who lives in London is safe, and that these pathetic riots stop as soon as possible.

 

[shade]

i live in leeds, so like the above poster(thats not evan) i haven't been affected yet. pretty disappointed in my country at the moment, but what really can you expect from chavs? the shooting of mark duggan is not the cause of these riots, people have used it as an excuse to start looting and being cunts. frankly, anyone says they're looting because of mark duggan is a lying dickdweller.

apparently shit is meant to kick off here like it did in liverpool last night (but scousers dont need an excuse to rob so w/e), but im hoping the presence of police in the city centre is just because of the possible violence as leeds united are playing against bradford city. heres hoping

 

[Moo]

going to london next week, fml.....
Also I heard riots are being organised on twitter, but wouldn't that make it easier to track? :\

 

[shade]

apparently, most riots are organsied via bbm

 

[NatGeo]

There was a news article on MSN saying that people were organizing this not just on Twitter but on a free messaging service from BlackBerry, but they couldn't track the content of the messages. However, just the fact that there are people coordinating riots like that is just sickening.

Also something in me feels that there's a Gran Torino-esque man somewhere there.

 

[Dan Dan]

I'm not saying that Mark Duggan's death is the reason for the rioting at all, I'm saying that that it was the spark that gave the people an excuse to start what's been coming for a long time.

 

[cookie]

but why was this large-scale rioting been a long time coming

 

[NatGeo]

Apparently the reason they give for the rioting is to show their discontent with the economy as it is.

The riots appeared to have little unifying cause — though some involved claimed to oppose sharp government spending cuts, which will slash welfare payments and cut tens of thousands of public sector jobs through 2015.

 

[DM]

This is absurd. DM you can't possibly believe these riots are the police's fault for shooting an armed drug dealer.

Dear god no, I was being facetious. This is only slightly different than those people in Vancouver who used the Stanley Cup game 7 loss as an excuse to begin riots all over that city as well.

 

[Razza]

This is absurd. DM you can't possibly believe these riots are the police's fault for shooting an armed drug dealer. Maybe these bottom-feeding rioters used it as an excuse, but this is certainly not the police's fault. These rioters would have found some other reason to go and enact this senseless destruction. We can only hope the police can continue to do their job to attempt to control the riots despite how widespread they are and how thinly emergency services are spread.

Actually I was reading the metro this morning on the bus and it would appear that if a bullet lodged in a police radio during the alleged "firefight" turns out to be police issue the mans family will sue the met. Also there is speculation that the "armed drugdealer" was carrying only a replica gun.
Whatever happens this situation is very serious indeed with the pm cutting his holiday short to come back and deal with it, the riots are spreading and the police are overpowered. Although I do think it would be cool if the riots spread to Edinburgh where I live :P

 

[Arch]

Actually I was reading the metro this morning on the bus and it would appear that if a bullet lodged in a police radio during the alleged "firefight" turns out to be police issue the mans family will sue the met. Also there is speculation that the "armed drugdealer" was carrying only a replica gun.
Whatever happens this situation is very serious indeed with the pm cutting his holiday short to come back and deal with it, the riots are spreading and the police are overpowered. Although I do think it would be cool if the riots spread to Edinburgh where I live :P

...I'm sorry...what?

 

[Lee]

the place i work had to close early after being warned by the police that shit was starting to kick off nearby. 30 minutes later we got told it was just some solitary plank going around smashing windows so we reopened. true story.

 

[Firestorm]

From what I can read, it's starting to look like vigilantism is going to take hold soon. People are pissed.

Although I do think it would be cool if the riots spread to Edinburgh where I live :P

Are you 12?

 

[AJers]

Although I do think it would be cool if the riots spread to Edinburgh where I live :P

You're crazy, lol! I would be hiking up the mountains if rioting started in my town (haha, nah, I don't really know what I would do, but it definitely wouldn't be something I would WANT to happen)....Then again, everyone is probably too afraid to riot here, our police are crazy with shooting people (I think they're being investigated by the Department of Justice; last year they shot 14 people [killed 9] and their numbers look like they might increase this year [NYC is 14 times bigger than ABQ and only shot 24 people last year with 8 of them dying]).

Anyways, to be back on topic, I've never even been in a real riot; the closest thing that ever happened was a huge fight in High School that the cops were called in to contain (they maced the halls and sent everyone home; canceled the next day). But that experience was crazy enough, I definitely don't want to see anything bigger.

 

[keelhauled]

Fuck the riots, anyone with half a brain cell knows theyre a fucking stupid thing. A bunch of morons roaming the streets setting fire to shit because they have nothing better to do, seriously it's ridiculous.

 

[Lee]

I live in the North of England where there isn't any rioting really

spoke too soon there pal

 

[verbatim]

Whatever happens this situation is very serious indeed with the pm cutting his holiday short to come back and deal with it, the riots are spreading and the police are overpowered. Although I do think it would be cool if the riots spread to Edinburgh where I live :P

Okay, first off, riots are no joke, and they are NOT fun. Ask the next combat veteran you see what it feels like to get shot at or hit. To be honest, I believe your experiencing a disconnect from reality insofar as violence goes (to much COD, kid thinks he's superman). (Or you were joking, in which case it is not funny, people lose their lives to these things).

Actually I was reading the metro this morning on the bus and it would appear that if a bullet lodged in a police radio during the alleged "firefight" turns out to be police issue the mans family will sue the met. Also there is speculation that the "armed drugdealer" was carrying only a replica gun.

Under the conventions of international law, self defense is completely acceptable if you determine yourself to be in imminent danger.
(I'm quoting wikipedia here, so if someone can actually quote the official law, that would be very helpful).

The traditional customary rules on self-defence derive from an early diplomatic incident between the United States and the United Kingdom over the killing on some US citizens engaged in an attack on Canada, then a British colony. The so-called Caroline case established that there had to exist "a necessity of self-defence, instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation,' and furthermore that any action taken must be proportional, "since the act justified by the necessity of self-defence, must be limited by that necessity, and kept clearly within it." These statements by the US Secretary of State to the British authorities are accepted as an accurate description of the customary right of self-defence.

To summarize, if someone gives you a reason to believe that they are going to try and attack/murder you. You have every right to stop them. In this case, assuming he did have a replica gun on hand (and it bore any similarity to a real gun) the policemen would assume he was in danger, and be protected in the defense of him and his comrades.


Also, if anyone knows British law, does England have any specific laws akin to this?

Sorry for the long post, if you can sum up what I just said in less space, or just do a better job, feel free.