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A treatise on newly posted teams.
- Thread starter Surgo
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Everyone take this to heart. These are the words of a wise man. He who controls the game controls the outcome. A pure offense team can work, as long as it has good synthesis. A pure defense team cannot work, because you are basically just sitting back and letting your opponent control the flow of battle. This is probably why gamefreak put in the bogus move stealth rock. Stalling would be so difficult in D/P that people needed at least some sort of way to make switching painfull, an important part of many stalling strategies. It didn't have the likely intended outcomes that gamefreak had probably made it for, but it is still evidence of what gamefreak was trying to create.
Control the battle, control the win. Simple, isn't it?
Nothing simple about it at all, really, since it's like asking someone to forget all those 5 years or so we spent playing Advance and fully adopt a brand-new philosophy on battling. Granted, if you look at it as a linear progression from GSC, then it makes sense. However, it doesn't make it any easier to adopt new team-building strategies.
My team was hailed as a very good one capable of dealing with many unique threats, and yet I didn't construct it any differently than I already knew how to from last gen. Perhaps I've learned a lot by just being in the Smogon Uncharted community over the past months and I haven't realized it, but to me it seems like you guys are talking up a philosophy and not really a strategy.
A team of CB&ers and set-up sweepers is kind of new, but if you look at my team you'll see that I have no true walls, but rather, many highly defensive Pokemon that are also good at attacking with a sweeper or two in the mix. If that's all you're talking about -- being defensive while maintaining a certain level of offense -- then, yeah, I feel I've got a handle on that.
My team was hailed as a very good one capable of dealing with many unique threats, and yet I didn't construct it any differently than I already knew how to from last gen. Perhaps I've learned a lot by just being in the Smogon Uncharted community over the past months and I haven't realized it, but to me it seems like you guys are talking up a philosophy and not really a strategy.
A team of CB&ers and set-up sweepers is kind of new, but if you look at my team you'll see that I have no true walls, but rather, many highly defensive Pokemon that are also good at attacking with a sweeper or two in the mix. If that's all you're talking about -- being defensive while maintaining a certain level of offense -- then, yeah, I feel I've got a handle on that.
A lot of people are misunderstanding my post. That said, some aren't. SDShamshel basically restated my point in far fewer words; if anyone is confused please read his post on the preceding page.
That's part of what I'm talking about, Aniny. Walls or semi-walls that are capable of handling more generic forms of threats and the ability to improvise to stop new threats as they prevent themselves.
That's part of what I'm talking about, Aniny. Walls or semi-walls that are capable of handling more generic forms of threats and the ability to improvise to stop new threats as they prevent themselves.
Well... this is true. However, to me it seems that you have to keep both philosophies in mind and not strictly one or the other. Obviously, if CG Sala OHKOs all your Pokemans you're thinking too broadly.
Not at all. The "threats" are the current (somewhat theoretical) metagame that we have in front of us right now. Soon, it will change as a metagame always does.
Our job, really to be as effective as possible, is to come up with new and unique ways to get around this mental block we call a mindgame. Each member in the team should contribute in some way to the new idea, not just be "a standard." The latter thinking is what locks people into overly-stagnant mindgames which is never good for a game.
It's so you won't make a team that is beaten by one or two pokemon.
You kinda answered your own question because the pokemon on the threat list ARE the holes in your strategy.
I think part of the reason (I might be wrong) why Jumpman made that list was because alot of RMTs popping up over the last few weeks had glaring weaknesses. Most of the time, it's easy to tell if a team will be 6-0ed by probably very common threats. The list is more of a check to make sure none of those teams make it off the drawing board, imo, because we were seeing some teams where those kinds of problems weren't being addressed at all.
I think synergy is the most important part of building a team, with each team member able to cover the others typewise and offensively. Obviously, for hard to counter stuff like Heracross and Rhyperior you want to give opponents as a hard time as possible getting those in, and threaten massive damage to whatever they switch out to (sort of like a revenge kill, but not involving the loss of team members). If a team poses a big threat and can't be exploited farily obviously, it's a success in my [long and convoluted] book.
I think synergy is the most important part of building a team, with each team member able to cover the others typewise and offensively. Obviously, for hard to counter stuff like Heracross and Rhyperior you want to give opponents as a hard time as possible getting those in, and threaten massive damage to whatever they switch out to (sort of like a revenge kill, but not involving the loss of team members). If a team poses a big threat and can't be exploited farily obviously, it's a success in my [long and convoluted] book.
Thanks alot for posting this. Its likely going to be some help to me in my team building process.
I guess my smeargle team *Or how you guys like to refer it as "A work of (BAN ME PLEASE)ry"* from RS with some adjustments for easier entry would work great for DP. I'm gonna probably work something out with Zerowing on my new "perfect setup" since I agree if I just walk into DP with my RS set, it's going to be "that" much harder to set up my strategy.
The basic idea behind his words, the way I see it that is, is just build a Team around strategy, not 6 standards, don't stock up on, and worry so much about Walls/Counters, just use Pokemon you know will benefit you more than hold you back. The more you "try" to think on a strategy or a counter against everything, the harder it will be to create a good Team. Just don't try so hard.
Plain and simple.
Plain and simple.
I was a pretty strong competetive player early last generation (shortly after we shifted into 386 play), but then quit for a long while. Coming back in this generation, I felt really overwhelmed. There were suddenly numerous standard sets for a huge lot of standard Pokemon. I felt completely overwhelmed, and almost gave up on making a competetive team at all.
After reading this, however, I really focused in on Gallade (my favorite), and created a team centered on him. Suddenly, I was looking for Pokemon to support him instead of standards that could counter everything. This topic really helped me out, and I'm sure it helps out a lot of other folks new to competetive battling, or who are having trouble thinking up a team. Having a central strategy makes it a lot more fun, and a lot more original. I'd get bored fast if I just used Skarmbliss, CGmence, Gengar, Gyarados, and Heracross or something (that's probably an awful team :D).
After reading this, however, I really focused in on Gallade (my favorite), and created a team centered on him. Suddenly, I was looking for Pokemon to support him instead of standards that could counter everything. This topic really helped me out, and I'm sure it helps out a lot of other folks new to competetive battling, or who are having trouble thinking up a team. Having a central strategy makes it a lot more fun, and a lot more original. I'd get bored fast if I just used Skarmbliss, CGmence, Gengar, Gyarados, and Heracross or something (that's probably an awful team :D).
As long as it has been helping people "see the light" then it is good, since that is the basic discussion behind the Post.
I know it has helped me in ways as well, not hugely as it should for others but everything imo can learn off of this.
I know it has helped me in ways as well, not hugely as it should for others but everything imo can learn off of this.
There should be something about quoting whole teams and not posting anything in them until after the quote.
the thing that confuses me is that say you were to build a team around
DDtar,now it's main counters are hippo,donphan and pert,once you have found 1-2 pokemon that can beat all tyranitar's threat making it easier for it to sweep,what about the other 3-4 members of the team
what do you do with them?
DDtar,now it's main counters are hippo,donphan and pert,once you have found 1-2 pokemon that can beat all tyranitar's threat making it easier for it to sweep,what about the other 3-4 members of the team
what do you do with them?
But say if you wanted to center your team around garchomp and missyd2 for example,then you might not be able to have pokemon to cover your weaknesses,because all your pokemon would be used getting rid of specific pokemon that counter gar and missyd,that could leave you extremely weak to a pokemon,but you couldn't get rid of any other pokes because then the central strategy wouldn't work.I just seems really hard
Also I hear teams being based around walls and BP'ers how would you do that?
And finally would this "make a team around a strategy" apply to bl/uu/nu??
Also I hear teams being based around walls and BP'ers how would you do that?
And finally would this "make a team around a strategy" apply to bl/uu/nu??
Interesting. I don't play much D/P, so I'm not exactly and expert in the current generation, but I was fairly successful in ADV, so I'm just going to interpret what I've read here.
Basically, what you're saying amounts to this: ADV was an extremely tactic-oriented game, whereas D/P should be played strategically. I have gone over the difference between the two far too many times to try to cover it again here, so I'm just going to assume that people know the difference. If you do not, then www.wikipedia.com
Essentially, in ADV, Surgo argues that the best team building strategy was to build a well-rounded team, capable of dealing with most common Pokémon. You don't really need to have a specific "goal" (strategy) in mind with a team like this; you play tactically. When you have the upper-hand, you look for opportunities to deal damage, and you take them. When your opponent is in the better position, you try to avoid it by compromising as little of your team as possible (letting your Heracross take the Thunder Wave instead of your Gyarados, or sacrificing a low-HP Snorlax instead of eating damage on your Salamence, for example). I'd say that in my experience, this is what most of ADV came down to: tactical play and prediction. Players walked into the battle with well-rounded teams, and the superior tactical player took home the trophy.
Strategical play is different. I'm going to use a classic example of a strategic team: the baton pass team. When you go into battle with a BP team, your mentality is not just "take what I can when I can", it's "Get some stat-boosts and pass to Marowak". Thus, your game will play differently. You might be like "I'm 99% sure he's switching in Alakazam, but instead of using Silver Wind, I'm going to Swords Dance." The decisions you make in the game are all based around getting out that Marowak with stat boosts and ripping shit up.
I would say that I tend to agree with Surgo, as far as his opinion on ADV goes. Although I think teams can benefit from being somewhat strategically oriented (most good teams had some semblance of strategy), most of ADV came down to tactics.
If I'm interpreting this right, then D/P might be a much more subtle game than ADV. A move that looks really great, might be exactly what the opponent needed to put his plan into action, and conversely, what first looks like a tactical blunder may have been the move you needed to execute. I'm off to the team building lab to see what I can do :).
Basically, what you're saying amounts to this: ADV was an extremely tactic-oriented game, whereas D/P should be played strategically. I have gone over the difference between the two far too many times to try to cover it again here, so I'm just going to assume that people know the difference. If you do not, then www.wikipedia.com
Essentially, in ADV, Surgo argues that the best team building strategy was to build a well-rounded team, capable of dealing with most common Pokémon. You don't really need to have a specific "goal" (strategy) in mind with a team like this; you play tactically. When you have the upper-hand, you look for opportunities to deal damage, and you take them. When your opponent is in the better position, you try to avoid it by compromising as little of your team as possible (letting your Heracross take the Thunder Wave instead of your Gyarados, or sacrificing a low-HP Snorlax instead of eating damage on your Salamence, for example). I'd say that in my experience, this is what most of ADV came down to: tactical play and prediction. Players walked into the battle with well-rounded teams, and the superior tactical player took home the trophy.
Strategical play is different. I'm going to use a classic example of a strategic team: the baton pass team. When you go into battle with a BP team, your mentality is not just "take what I can when I can", it's "Get some stat-boosts and pass to Marowak". Thus, your game will play differently. You might be like "I'm 99% sure he's switching in Alakazam, but instead of using Silver Wind, I'm going to Swords Dance." The decisions you make in the game are all based around getting out that Marowak with stat boosts and ripping shit up.
I would say that I tend to agree with Surgo, as far as his opinion on ADV goes. Although I think teams can benefit from being somewhat strategically oriented (most good teams had some semblance of strategy), most of ADV came down to tactics.
If I'm interpreting this right, then D/P might be a much more subtle game than ADV. A move that looks really great, might be exactly what the opponent needed to put his plan into action, and conversely, what first looks like a tactical blunder may have been the move you needed to execute. I'm off to the team building lab to see what I can do :).
I think whats trying to be said here is that a strategy could be to base some pokemon on your team off of pokemon that need to be countered because they pose a threat to your main offense, whatever that may be, but some strategies don't require many pokemon to be countered as the opponent cannot do anything to counter said strategy themselves using certain pokemon.
Just wanted to note that the links in the FP don't seem to work anymore
This is true, it's good to have walls to counter and help eachother out but with a lot of threats being created it'd make the metagame real fun and interesting instead of seeing the same strategies OVER and OVER again, it gets quiet boring/ annoying.
I mean could you imagine a UU sweeping an OU team by suprise, it'd be awesome, people would love it! It'd make things more exciting.
It's not hard people i swept a guy with a Kingler and Cacturne, I've been defeated by NU teams i've never seen before, even though i lost it's fun to know that there are so many strategies to this game, try stuff out people, you never know, my most original pokemon include:
The Thunderpunching Cacturne
SubPlot Shiftry
They work fine, i'm not trying to take it all the credit but i've swept with them both. Try stuff out people
I mean could you imagine a UU sweeping an OU team by suprise, it'd be awesome, people would love it! It'd make things more exciting.
It's not hard people i swept a guy with a Kingler and Cacturne, I've been defeated by NU teams i've never seen before, even though i lost it's fun to know that there are so many strategies to this game, try stuff out people, you never know, my most original pokemon include:
The Thunderpunching Cacturne
SubPlot Shiftry
They work fine, i'm not trying to take it all the credit but i've swept with them both. Try stuff out people
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