To be honest, any crobat set can shut it down. Choice band will bring it down to sash (if it has one) and you can taunt if you're running stall breaker. Weavile is also a great counter because it is faster, hits hard with super effective STAB, and froslass can't touch it. Other notable threat that outspeed it are azelf, raikou and tornadus. Unlike Deoxys-S, Pokemon are capable of outspeeding it without a scarf and it is much frailer.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
The UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
Update
Froslass up from A-rank ==> S-rank
Abomasnow up from B-rank ==> A-rank
Chandelure up from A-rank ==> S-rank
Umbreon up from B-rank ==> A-rank
Uxie added to C-rank
@Froslass and Abomasnow: Both were moved up earlier, but i'm just now documenting their changes. The former is a really strong spike user (bulky variants are underrated, and the later is a weather starter and a formidable Pokemon in its own right)
@Chandelure: This change has been needed for a long time, and now it's finally happening. A pokemon this powerful absolutely shouldn't be in A for this long.
@Umbreon: One of the best Special Defense tanks in a tier filled with Special Attackers.
I'm hesitant about moving Gligar to B and Yanmega to A.
EDIT: Heracross to S as well.
Froslass up from A-rank ==> S-rank
Abomasnow up from B-rank ==> A-rank
Chandelure up from A-rank ==> S-rank
Umbreon up from B-rank ==> A-rank
Uxie added to C-rank
@Froslass and Abomasnow: Both were moved up earlier, but i'm just now documenting their changes. The former is a really strong spike user (bulky variants are underrated, and the later is a weather starter and a formidable Pokemon in its own right)
@Chandelure: This change has been needed for a long time, and now it's finally happening. A pokemon this powerful absolutely shouldn't be in A for this long.
@Umbreon: One of the best Special Defense tanks in a tier filled with Special Attackers.
I'm hesitant about moving Gligar to B and Yanmega to A.
EDIT: Heracross to S as well.
Hail is by far one of the most underrated strategies in UU, and it's such a shame that it isn't used more then it is now. Although Abomasnow may not be the most fantastic Pokemon on its own, it makes a ton of Pokemon more viable, such as Glaceon, Rotom-F, and Walrein. It definitely deserves A-Rank, because hail is a very potent strategy in UU.
Although S-Rank seems a bit much for Froslass in my opinion, I can definitely see why people would want it to be put into S-Rank. Even outside of hail teams, Froslass is a fantastic utility Pokemon with Taunt, Spikes, and Destiny Bond. Being the fastest Spiker in the tier, it's quite annoying how most of the time Froslass pretty much always manages to setup at least two layers of hazards on me, and then proceeds to kill something with Destiny Bond. It most certainly has its flaws, but it's so amazing at what it does that it's enough to make it S-Rank.
Chandelure hits everything in the tier extremely hard and has maybe one hard counter. Other than that, everything else dies, and nothing can really switch into the combination of Fire Blast and Shadow Ball. That power alone is enough to make it S-rank.
I didn't even realize that Umbreon wasn't A-Rank, but now I'm glad that it is. Umbreon is pretty much impossible to break down on the special side, and it has amazing utility. It can pass big Wishes to its teammates, and best of all it can use Heal Bell to help on stall teams and crippled sweepers. Although it has zero offensive presence, the gift of Foul Play has allowed Umbreon to fight back against physical attackers, KOing even Darmanitan after Stealth Rock! It's easily one of the best utility Pokemon in UU right now, and even with all the Fighting-types in the tier, it still manages to succeed.
Although S-Rank seems a bit much for Froslass in my opinion, I can definitely see why people would want it to be put into S-Rank. Even outside of hail teams, Froslass is a fantastic utility Pokemon with Taunt, Spikes, and Destiny Bond. Being the fastest Spiker in the tier, it's quite annoying how most of the time Froslass pretty much always manages to setup at least two layers of hazards on me, and then proceeds to kill something with Destiny Bond. It most certainly has its flaws, but it's so amazing at what it does that it's enough to make it S-Rank.
Chandelure hits everything in the tier extremely hard and has maybe one hard counter. Other than that, everything else dies, and nothing can really switch into the combination of Fire Blast and Shadow Ball. That power alone is enough to make it S-rank.
I didn't even realize that Umbreon wasn't A-Rank, but now I'm glad that it is. Umbreon is pretty much impossible to break down on the special side, and it has amazing utility. It can pass big Wishes to its teammates, and best of all it can use Heal Bell to help on stall teams and crippled sweepers. Although it has zero offensive presence, the gift of Foul Play has allowed Umbreon to fight back against physical attackers, KOing even Darmanitan after Stealth Rock! It's easily one of the best utility Pokemon in UU right now, and even with all the Fighting-types in the tier, it still manages to succeed.
Wow, this is the largest S-Rank list I've seen yet.
I know right? UU has more S-rank Pokes than any other Tier now if I'm not mistaken, 9. Actually I think it had more even before the most recent updates...
Crobat is weak to icebeam. You're essentially sacrificing yourself 1-1 for it, which is probably in froslass's favor since froslass often doesn't support much of a role in terms of synergy, while crobat can be the crux of many teams with its supportive role.
Weavile is probably the best (and only?) answer to froslass. Scarfers are kind of annoyed by cursed body, even if it is only 1/3 chance. Without weavile it will be extremely hard to play around; you'll very likely end up in a disadvantaged position right off the bat.
Also, still waiting to hear a solid answer to gligar being B ranked. And even though abama just moved up, IMO i wouldn't count it out for S ranked
I'd say that Rhyperior is a decent answer to Froslass, too. While Ice Beam is SE on it, Solid Rock and Froslass' poor offences mitigate that somewhat, and Rock Blast breaks the Focus Sash and KOs if it's not predicted [ie Froslass goes for Taunt or something, predicting Stealth Rock]. Plus, not all Froslass even carry Ice Beam.
Yeah S-Rank is pretty large atm, 9 Pokemon. We oughtta try and not make that rank get too crowded, it's a very specialized rank imo (in my eyes, the S-Rank is for only the absolute top tier threats in UU).
I agree with all of the changes though, Froslass and Chandelure are very worthy of the S-Rank, both Top tier, the former is the best Spiker in UU while the latter has almost zero hard counters thanks to its legendary SpA and incredible coverage in its STABs and movepool. Abomasnow too, hail is awesome in UU atm and Abomasnow also poses a great threat on his own thanks to his STABs and solid offensive stats.
I'd also suggest Krookodile for B-Rank. Krookodile is a great late-game cleaner with Moxie, and can definitely sweep his fair share of teams. Ground / Dark coverage is very solid, and Dark STAB is very good in UU despite Fighting-types being prevalent, and Crunch gets good neutral coverage across UU. This makes Krookodile an excellent late game cleaner with a Choice Scarf, and is very destructive. While he may seem outclassed by Heracross, I would say the two of them are not even remotely comparable; I guess they both have Moxie, but the two of them play very differently. Krookodile has different STAB's, which cover a different range of threats such as Chandelure, Nidoqueen, and Qwilfish, and is also immune to T-Wave, which is a plus in Krook's sweeping prowess. Krookodile also has the advantage over Honchkrow in the sense that its STAB is much more reliable, and it does not need to rely on Sucker Punch to nail faster targets.
Krookodile is also an excellent revenge killer, with his Speed being perfect for a Choice Scarf revenge killer. Pursuit is also a great move in Krookodile's favor, and this is also what makes Krookodile great in the revenge killing department. While it faces competition from Mienshao as a revenge killer, again, Krookodile revenge kills a different set of threats. Krookodile can revenge and trap things like Azelf, Victini, Raikou, lolambipom, and Mew. Pursuit is a great thing in Krookodile's favor, and allows it to trap those things it aims to revenge kill. Krookodile also has the advantage in the sense that it doesn't have to worry about a damn miss, which is death for Mienshao, and it also doesn't mind Protect either.
Overall Krookodile is a really solid Pokemon, capable of sweeping teams like a complete boss with just hazard support, and also serving as a great revenge killer in UU that can also Pursuit trap. I think he's too good for C, and has a pretty solid place in B because of how dangerous he can really be.
I agree with all of the changes though, Froslass and Chandelure are very worthy of the S-Rank, both Top tier, the former is the best Spiker in UU while the latter has almost zero hard counters thanks to its legendary SpA and incredible coverage in its STABs and movepool. Abomasnow too, hail is awesome in UU atm and Abomasnow also poses a great threat on his own thanks to his STABs and solid offensive stats.
I'd also suggest Krookodile for B-Rank. Krookodile is a great late-game cleaner with Moxie, and can definitely sweep his fair share of teams. Ground / Dark coverage is very solid, and Dark STAB is very good in UU despite Fighting-types being prevalent, and Crunch gets good neutral coverage across UU. This makes Krookodile an excellent late game cleaner with a Choice Scarf, and is very destructive. While he may seem outclassed by Heracross, I would say the two of them are not even remotely comparable; I guess they both have Moxie, but the two of them play very differently. Krookodile has different STAB's, which cover a different range of threats such as Chandelure, Nidoqueen, and Qwilfish, and is also immune to T-Wave, which is a plus in Krook's sweeping prowess. Krookodile also has the advantage over Honchkrow in the sense that its STAB is much more reliable, and it does not need to rely on Sucker Punch to nail faster targets.
Krookodile is also an excellent revenge killer, with his Speed being perfect for a Choice Scarf revenge killer. Pursuit is also a great move in Krookodile's favor, and this is also what makes Krookodile great in the revenge killing department. While it faces competition from Mienshao as a revenge killer, again, Krookodile revenge kills a different set of threats. Krookodile can revenge and trap things like Azelf, Victini, Raikou, lolambipom, and Mew. Pursuit is a great thing in Krookodile's favor, and allows it to trap those things it aims to revenge kill. Krookodile also has the advantage in the sense that it doesn't have to worry about a damn miss, which is death for Mienshao, and it also doesn't mind Protect either.
Overall Krookodile is a really solid Pokemon, capable of sweeping teams like a complete boss with just hazard support, and also serving as a great revenge killer in UU that can also Pursuit trap. I think he's too good for C, and has a pretty solid place in B because of how dangerous he can really be.
Don't get me wrong here, as I love my ground types collectively as a whole (even Stunfisk) I think it may be a tough stretch putting Krookodile in B-Rank. While he has a good STAB combo to get coverage on most threats, seldom is he going to be getting an OHKO off a healthy opponent with either respectable bulk or at least neutrality to Krook's STABs. I can't say I've used Krook anytime lately but even the STAB Pursuit is only so much of a selling point for it, especially in a metagame where Krook's typing leaves it susceptible to some Pokemon you intend to trap. It's mostly pokes choiced into a Psychic or Ghost move you'd be Pursuiting...otherwise it can come back to bite you. Aside from that the other thing about Krook...even though you mentioned comparing it to Heracross (or Mienshao by that stretch) I think it's kinda relevant. Being choiced into a STAB Fighting move isn't as deadly as being choiced into a STAB Ground move in a tier where there's waaaaay more Pokes resisting if not Immune to Ground, thus meaning a lot of plays can be momentum-killing gambles, not even mentioning how much more dependent you may have to be on Stone Miss. I mean don't get me wrong, I do like Krook and probably will try him out someday, but my argument covers a good few flaws and reasons why it's C-Rank. It needs a bit of support in being able to sweep and most peeps will feel it's outclassed.
It isn't to hard to counter as it almost always leads. A great pair to stop it from getting up 2 layers is scarfshao + band crobat. Select one, u-turn out to break the sash, then use either brave bird or stone edge. Weavile could replace either one. Weavile, again, alone stops it in its tracks, and deserves more usage overall in UU. I imagine some people run him simply to counter froslass. It isn't to hard to beat
Edit: I guess I'll throw out that ambipom gets the super effective beat up to easily break froslass' sash. People have been shitting on it lately, but if you're really desperate to stop froslass from getting up any spikes...
Am I the only one that just realized that ambipom is the perfect counter to lead froslass (aka every froslass ever)
Yeah, it's still garbage, but being the best counter lead to froslass gives it a small niche I guess
Am I the only person who runs the bulky Froslass with max HP and Speed? That thing is so much more effective in my opinion...especially when youu DON'T lead with it. Zoroark Syndrome if you ask me. I wouldn't want to lure out someone's voltturn core early game for oone cheap kill and a layer of spikes, when I have a better chance of 3 layers AND possibly a fainted poke to go along with me
It is more effective if used in the midgame, don't get me wrong, it's just that 95% of all froslass I see are leads
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
You're one of the few, yes.
And yes, I agree that it is much more effective than the standard sash lead, especially now that everybody is prepared for it. It's just that bulky lass is so much harder to use correctly that more people just prefer the standard "set up spikes and die" set.
I think Frosslass is sort of like Victini in that the only thing stopping them from being ridiculous is the improper usage. A well played Frosslass is basically guaranteed a spike or two and probably a free kill with D Bond against most teams- yet most I see taunt my Rhyperior as I go for Rock Blast first turn. Special/Mixed Victini is sooo dirty being able to flat out kill common switchins like Rhyperior or Swampert yet all I ever see is the physical variant.
Personally I think that they are fine as is but when people start catching on then we have a problem.
Krookodile is interesting, I've always viewed it as a lackluster poke but I'd like to give it a try. How come we don't have those study week things anymore? I've been using Honchkrow extensively because of the usage stats and I think I've learned a lot about it and the game in general.
Anyways I'd like to nominate Poliwrath for C Rank. The Sub BU set has been a longtime favourite of mine, being able to set up on stuff like Blastoise, Suicune, Gligar, Umbreon, Bronzong, etc. as well as common resisted hits like Stone Edge. I haven't played with the Rest Talk set much at all but I imagine it would be very good against the ubiquitous Fire mons and all the threatening Dark mons (Sharpedo, Scrafty, Weavile etc) and thanks to Rest it could even outstall a lot of walls.
Personally I think that they are fine as is but when people start catching on then we have a problem.
Krookodile is interesting, I've always viewed it as a lackluster poke but I'd like to give it a try. How come we don't have those study week things anymore? I've been using Honchkrow extensively because of the usage stats and I think I've learned a lot about it and the game in general.
Anyways I'd like to nominate Poliwrath for C Rank. The Sub BU set has been a longtime favourite of mine, being able to set up on stuff like Blastoise, Suicune, Gligar, Umbreon, Bronzong, etc. as well as common resisted hits like Stone Edge. I haven't played with the Rest Talk set much at all but I imagine it would be very good against the ubiquitous Fire mons and all the threatening Dark mons (Sharpedo, Scrafty, Weavile etc) and thanks to Rest it could even outstall a lot of walls.
One other nice thing to mention about Krookodile is that except for virizion, it gets almost perfect neutral coverage on all of UU from its STAB alone, which is pretty nice. Virizion can easily be covered by aerial ace, at least for a scarf set (which is an unfortunate necessity unless you have reliable ways already to deal with heracross).
In a way however, from what I remember from using krookodile long ago, is that like heracross, it really appreciates certain things being removed, assuming you're trying to sweep rather than just pursuit trap. Gligar is still a pain, while some pokemon can tank even its super effective hits without too much trouble (defensive variants of slowbro for example).
In a way however, from what I remember from using krookodile long ago, is that like heracross, it really appreciates certain things being removed, assuming you're trying to sweep rather than just pursuit trap. Gligar is still a pain, while some pokemon can tank even its super effective hits without too much trouble (defensive variants of slowbro for example).
I very much agree with Lovelace.
The fact that Froslass is being considered for suspect kinda reminds me of Deoxys-D - it is being suspected because of the ease of which it can set up spikes. However, while Deoxys-D had bulk, Froslass has speed, and its ability to outspeed almost every non-scarf UU poke. If people used Froslass right, it could be almost as stupid as Deo-D. But in the place it is now, I think it can stay in UU.
The fact that Froslass is being considered for suspect kinda reminds me of Deoxys-D - it is being suspected because of the ease of which it can set up spikes. However, while Deoxys-D had bulk, Froslass has speed, and its ability to outspeed almost every non-scarf UU poke. If people used Froslass right, it could be almost as stupid as Deo-D. But in the place it is now, I think it can stay in UU.
Ill quote this from the Usage stats:
Yeah, pretty much what that guy said.Also, Why is Meloetta in B rank? He should be A rank at least, people should use her more!.Btw Slowking is very low in usage stats also he isn't even UU tier. Why is he in the same rank as his brother. Shouln't he be R rank?
Yeah, pretty much what that guy said.Also, Why is Meloetta in B rank? He should be A rank at least, people should use her more!.Btw Slowking is very low in usage stats also he isn't even UU tier. Why is he in the same rank as his brother. Shouln't he be R rank?
Not sure about Meloetta whether it's A-Rank material, although imo it's definitely Top B-Rank at worst. Slowking is a very good Pokemon in UU, and he has advantages that make him the same rank as his brother. For one, he has better special bulk, and although he cannot function as an effective special wall, this allows him to serve as a mixed wall, being able to take a mixed variety of hits while Slowbro folds to most special hits. He also has some cool stuff in his movepool, such as Dragon Tail. As such, Slowking is harder to switch into than Slowbro, as Shaymin gets forced right out, and this allows Slowking to rack up entry hazard damage. This along with Dragon Tail allows Slowking to be the better matchup against Kingdra, one of the top threats in the tier. The biggest draw to Slowking is that it's the best matchup against Kingdra, as all of Kingdra's ways of dealing legitimate damage to physically defensive Slowking all have drawbacks. Slowking's Dragon Tail also will always break Kingdra's Substitutes, by the way. Slowking can also run the better Trick Room set with Nasty Plot, and can use the TR+NP combo that Cofagrigus is well known for. Slowking can also handle bulky waters like CroCune better thanks to the bulk and D-Tail, btw. All of these are what make Slowking the same rank as his brother. As Slowking's UU analysis says; "While Slowbro's lack of a phazing move sometimes leaves it a liability, Slowking excels in utility where it lacks in physical brawn".
Just because something has little use doesn't by any means determine it's rank. Qwilfish is in RU but is currently residing in B tier thanks to the great defensive support it can provide in UU.
I don't really get why people consider Meloetta to be that great, she seems pretty outclassed as a special attacker to me. Could anyone enlighten me as to why it would be deserving of High B-Rank?
I don't really get why people consider Meloetta to be that great, she seems pretty outclassed as a special attacker to me. Could anyone enlighten me as to why it would be deserving of High B-Rank?
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
Well, Meloetta has the highest special stats of any Psychic-type in the tier. Meloetta's obscenely high Special Attack allows it to run a Specs set, which is something Mew and Azelf cannot do. Meloetta's secondary Normal typing gives it an immunity to Ghost, which is very nice with the abundance of OTR Cofagrigus and Choiced Chandelure. What really sets Meloetta apart though is its ability to effectively run a Mixed set. With Work Up and Close Combat, Meloetta will obliterate any of the normal special counters like Snorlax, Umbroen, and Pory2.
Let me be clear though that I'm just pointing out what separates Meloetta from special attackers, I'm not necessarily saying Meloetta should be A-rank. There's no denying the fact that it's Pursuit weak, as well as all around frail as far as physical defense is concerned. Base 90 speed is also a tad underwhelming. I personally think High B is a good ranking for it as its weaknesses make it hard to pull off consistently without some support, but I can see the argument for moving it up.
Let me be clear though that I'm just pointing out what separates Meloetta from special attackers, I'm not necessarily saying Meloetta should be A-rank. There's no denying the fact that it's Pursuit weak, as well as all around frail as far as physical defense is concerned. Base 90 speed is also a tad underwhelming. I personally think High B is a good ranking for it as its weaknesses make it hard to pull off consistently without some support, but I can see the argument for moving it up.
I nominate Camerupt for C tier.
With a similar specially defensive set to the one in the already existing NU analysis (just earthquake over earth power, and a sassy nature), Camerupt can easily switch into every offensive electric type with ease and set up rocks, toxic/phase, or try to deal damage or get a burn with its STAB moves. And unlike Swampert and Rhyperior, Camerupt doesn't have to be wary of random grass coverage, so it's especially a good check to Raikou and Chandelure. It can also check offensive fire types pretty well and retaliate with a powerful STAB earthquake, but with a lack of reliable recovery and only average bulk it doesn't like taking repeated flare blitzes, V-creates, and fire blasts.
Camerupt's only weaknesses are ground and water, and on top of that it has solid rock to help takes those hits better. But unfortunately Camerupt is never going to take any water hits well at all, nor physical ground type attacks. Solid rock does come in handy for switching into Shaymin's earth power, however. Camerupt's main advantage over Swampert or Rhyperior is its typing; it has the key resists of a fire and ground type without being weak to rocks or standard coverage moves. Its ability to spread burns with lava plume is also a bonus (although Swampert pretty much does the same thing with scald).
I chose Camerupt for my team mostly because it finished off the FWG core on my team and it could set up rocks. I also needed something to deal with sub CM Raikou, and Camerupt does the job perfectly. It's mostly outdone by Swampert and Rhyperior in terms of bulk and offenses, but it has a niche and is totally viable in UU. I'm just surprised no one has ever mentioned it here before, and that it wasn't even used 400 times last month in UU. I hope more people will try it out once they read this.
With a similar specially defensive set to the one in the already existing NU analysis (just earthquake over earth power, and a sassy nature), Camerupt can easily switch into every offensive electric type with ease and set up rocks, toxic/phase, or try to deal damage or get a burn with its STAB moves. And unlike Swampert and Rhyperior, Camerupt doesn't have to be wary of random grass coverage, so it's especially a good check to Raikou and Chandelure. It can also check offensive fire types pretty well and retaliate with a powerful STAB earthquake, but with a lack of reliable recovery and only average bulk it doesn't like taking repeated flare blitzes, V-creates, and fire blasts.
Camerupt's only weaknesses are ground and water, and on top of that it has solid rock to help takes those hits better. But unfortunately Camerupt is never going to take any water hits well at all, nor physical ground type attacks. Solid rock does come in handy for switching into Shaymin's earth power, however. Camerupt's main advantage over Swampert or Rhyperior is its typing; it has the key resists of a fire and ground type without being weak to rocks or standard coverage moves. Its ability to spread burns with lava plume is also a bonus (although Swampert pretty much does the same thing with scald).
I chose Camerupt for my team mostly because it finished off the FWG core on my team and it could set up rocks. I also needed something to deal with sub CM Raikou, and Camerupt does the job perfectly. It's mostly outdone by Swampert and Rhyperior in terms of bulk and offenses, but it has a niche and is totally viable in UU. I'm just surprised no one has ever mentioned it here before, and that it wasn't even used 400 times last month in UU. I hope more people will try it out once they read this.
Hm, though it was a one-time thing, I actually have busted out specially defensive Camerupt in UU, I was "borrowing" a team a friend used on me from a super long time ago consisting of nothing but NU and RU Pokemon. I gotta say, I was surprised with how good Camerupt did with a specially defensive EV Spread, and it does perform as Goutland stated, however unlike Rhyperior and Swampert, Camerupt has to rely a bit more heavily upon its teammates in order to be effective.
The only thing I see a problem with specially defensive camerupt is its bulk. It's typing is great, but 70/70/75 bulk is incredibly mediocre, and combined with no recovery moves, it has a hard time taking hits from much of anything. It does have a nice niche being the only fire type that can set up rocks (macargo doesn't exist), but I would find a more offensive rock polish set to potentially work better, though it might be out classed by ryhyperior, it is the only specialy based rock polish set I can think of, not to mention the ever valuable fire stab