Please read this again: ''It doenst really get worned down since it only has to come in once anyway''. Once. Crocune is not to be used like a regular bulk water. Crocune purpose is find an opportunity to setup once its checks are weakned or removed and then seal the game. Stop comparing it to slowbro and milotic. Slowbro and milotic use their bulk to switch into powerful moves and their instant recovery to keep themselves alive through the match. Crocune will use its bulk to tank hits while setupping once the path is clear. Again your argument about shaymin/zapdos/w/e coming in and forcing you out is downright irrelevant since they NEED to be removed in order to sweep.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
The UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
That's just the problem, I think. You said in your other post that your arguing that Suicune should only be moved up based on the Crocune set, and the Crocune set needs A LOT of support in order to function properly. The point about Shaymin and Zapdos is definitely not irrelevant, the fact that suicune absolutely cannot function as long as they are alive just goes to show how much support the set needs. Suicune really fits the definition of B rank:
Suicune as a bulky water is outclassed by Slowbro, Slowking, Empoleon, and Milotic. As a defensive sweeper, it has quite a few flaws that prevents it from doing its job. Anything with taunt shuts it down, anything with a phazing move shuts it down, its extremely vulnerable to hax, it's setup bait for quite a few pokemon (ex: Sub DD Kingdra, anything with both Calm Mind and Psyshock, etc) and the final flaw is the fact you can't even attempt to setup as long as certain pokemon are alive. It's not like DD Kingdra, where you can potentially raise your speed and grab the kill, or Weavile where you can raise your attack, and hope to catch them offguard with STAB Ice Shard. With Suicune, as long as something like Shaymin, Raikou, or Zapdos is alive, you can't even attempt to set up because ti would just end with Suicune getting forced back out.
Removing suicune checks is not really A LOT of support. Shaymin is easily dealt with by crobat for example which coincidentally beats phazers like swampert and snorlax with taunt+toxic, electric types are dealt with the omnipresent grounds which are present in most teams anyway regardless of wheter suicune would be used or not so its not a support really hard to provide. Suicune doesnt need much more than that. You dont need hazards, rapid spin, weather, paralysis support or anything other than removing its checks. Also you cant really compare it to kingdra in this case. Kingdra is S-Rank while im proposing suicune for A-Rank. Kingdra not just requires hardly any support but it also has hardly any checks and can complety destroy teams by itself.
If it's really that terrible, why is it even B-Rank and not C-Rank?
As it is, though, you're comparing Suicune [a defensive Pokemon] to two offensive Pokemon. A defensive Pokemon isn't designed to power through its counters, because it's... well... a defensive Pokemon! Milotic is not really relevant because he was talking about the Crocune set in particular, and Milotic does not learn Calm Mind. As for the others, Suicune presents its own advantages, mainly greater bulk in every area, as well as higher speed, and not being weak to U-Turn or Pursuit - Chandelure also can't smash through it through its STABS, though Suicune and the Slow Bros. can be crippled with a well-aimed Trick. Regenerator is also somewhat irrelevant, as Crocune's job is generally to come in once, set up, and sweep - Pressure helps with this, stalling out low-PP attacks. It, unlike the Slow Bros., is also not bothered by Toxic - taking a little nap is all it requires to refresh itself.
As it is, though, you're comparing Suicune [a defensive Pokemon] to two offensive Pokemon. A defensive Pokemon isn't designed to power through its counters, because it's... well... a defensive Pokemon! Milotic is not really relevant because he was talking about the Crocune set in particular, and Milotic does not learn Calm Mind. As for the others, Suicune presents its own advantages, mainly greater bulk in every area, as well as higher speed, and not being weak to U-Turn or Pursuit - Chandelure also can't smash through it through its STABS, though Suicune and the Slow Bros. can be crippled with a well-aimed Trick. Regenerator is also somewhat irrelevant, as Crocune's job is generally to come in once, set up, and sweep - Pressure helps with this, stalling out low-PP attacks. It, unlike the Slow Bros., is also not bothered by Toxic - taking a little nap is all it requires to refresh itself.
Did you miss the part where I explained its useful niche? Or are you one of those folks who forms an opinion and refuses to listen to reason?
Nothing on this thread (which I've read, by the way) has convinced me that Gligar is somehow not worthy of a B Rank as dictated by the requirements behind the ranking system in the OP. If there's some pokemon that does a better job of taking hits AND shifting momentum than Gligar, I'm all ears. It's a wall that transforms into free setup for another pokemon, if you're any good at using him.
So...has anyone tried Manectric before? It's one electric type I haven't put in my hands yet, I did ask around once or twice though, they said "You're not missing much with Galvantula." I mean theoretically, an electric with Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Overheat/Flamethrower, and HP Grass as well as switcheroo with a base 105 Speed stat would be worthy of some merit right? Or is Manectric just a frail lovechild of Raikou and Rotom-H?
Shaymin is not easily dealt with by Crobat, if you use an actually decent set with Psychic, the LO set OHKOs crobat on the switch in. If Crocune needs Crobat, another Shaymin Counter, an "omnipresent ground", it's not exactly easy support.
In general, I'm going to agree completely with TPO3 on this. Yes, Suicune can perform a multitude of roles well, but it is outclassed in many of them. Most experienced players are very prepared for Crocune, so it's not a guaranteed winner.
I'd say it's more like a lovechild of Rotom-H and Rotom-H, lol. You're exchanging Dual Stab, Levitate, and good bulk for marginally better speed, Lightningrod, and non-weakness to Stealth Rock. You also lose out on pain split. In general, it's just outclassed.
Actually it doesnt. It does heavy damage but its still a 2hko and of course once you get in shaymin has no choice but to switch out of a predicted brave bird and give crobat a free turn to roost. I really dont see how is that too much support specially since the stuff that check suicune are very common in the meta and most team already have answers for them anyway.
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
Who in their right minds keeps Shaymin in and just lets it get mauled by Crobat? Nobody. It's just going to switch out and come back in at a later part of the game. Same with Zapdos, Raikou, etc. This is what makes supporting Suicune so hard: it does not need its counters weakened sufficiently, it needs them completely removed from the game, which is much harder than you're giving it credit for. You can switch Crobat into Shaymin as many times as you want (assuming that Shaymin doesn't carry Psychic, BTW, which has a very high chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.), shaymin is just going to run and hide, potentially nabbing a Synthesis or a Rest later in the game, to make you start all over. Zapdos carries Roost as well. Now for normal sweepers, just forcing them to hide is quite all right. You add up Stealth Rock and possibly Spikes as residual damage, and maybe a little more if you can hit them hard enough as they switch in. For normal sweepers, this is just fine, as they can take Shaymin or Zapdos out when they're sufficiently weakened via raised speed or boosted priority moves. However that is exactly what separates them from Suicune. Suicune does not have the ability to do this; instead you have take them all the way down to 0% health, which is very hard to do, since Shaymin and Zapdos are not pursuit weak, both have a significant amount of bulk, both have instant recovery moves, and both have a wide array of resistances to switch into, and both carry enough of an offensive presence to force switches as they heal themselves up. (Shaymin also has Natural Cure.)
My mistake. I meant that it OHKOs after Stealth Rocks/has a chance to KO if banded crobat. Besides, Shaymin can take a Brave Bird from the stallbreaker set most of the time. It's hardly a failsafe to remove shaymin from the game, at least.
I did use manetric for a bit during the rock-bottom challenge long ago. It is mostly outclassed by both, but having access to lightningrod and being SR neutral are noteworthy points, which is why I'd say D-rank is okay. Otherwise Rotom-H is much better due to typing and bulk. If you're going to use it, I think your team would need it to patch up a serious electric/togekiss weakness (In other words, a big deterrent to those pokes using their electric moves). Choice sets are outclassed by Rotom-H, All out attacker sets by Galvantula.
Ok, so about this whole Suicune thing... The obvious selling point for not boosting it up to A is that Roserade, Shaymin, Raikou, and Zapdos are running around the tier. I've made a list of the 4 main threats Suicune fears, and why they are all threats to be considered.
Roserade- Mauls Suicune with its base 125 Spa, and its Natural Cure allows it to shake off any residual damage from burns that Scald caused.
Shaymin- Seed flare wrecks Suicune, even with a boost. Also, Shaymin can recover any damage taken from Scald burns and Life Orb recoil via Synthesis or Rest. These 2 recovery moves also guarantee that Shaymin will be able to stay alive for Suicune when it comes in late game.
Raikou- Since most people run the SubCM set, I'll use this as an example. Raikou can use Substitute to protect himself from burns, and then start a Calm Mind war with Suicune. If you even have half of a brain, you'll know who wins this one.
Zapdos- Even though Zapdos is the only one that can't protect itself from Suicune's burns in some way, Zapdos can still switch in, threaten Suicune out with a Thunderbolt, and Roost on the switch. Roost also guarantees that Zapdos can stay alive and switch in when Suicune is left.
Now obviously, no one in their right mind would send out Crocune with any of those 4 Pokemon on the opposing side. On the flip side, no half-competent player would leave in their Suicune counter in to die when they see a Suicune on the other side of the field. Roserade's, Shaymin's, and Zapdos' easy recovery options will make sure that they can be there for Suicune, and this is why I feel Suicune should stay down in B. It requires support, and it's not something like Spikes support, where you can set it up yourself. It's support that can only be accomplished if your opponent is stupid and doesn't know much about the metagame. This alone should warrant that Suicune should stay in B rank.
Roserade- Mauls Suicune with its base 125 Spa, and its Natural Cure allows it to shake off any residual damage from burns that Scald caused.
Shaymin- Seed flare wrecks Suicune, even with a boost. Also, Shaymin can recover any damage taken from Scald burns and Life Orb recoil via Synthesis or Rest. These 2 recovery moves also guarantee that Shaymin will be able to stay alive for Suicune when it comes in late game.
Raikou- Since most people run the SubCM set, I'll use this as an example. Raikou can use Substitute to protect himself from burns, and then start a Calm Mind war with Suicune. If you even have half of a brain, you'll know who wins this one.
Zapdos- Even though Zapdos is the only one that can't protect itself from Suicune's burns in some way, Zapdos can still switch in, threaten Suicune out with a Thunderbolt, and Roost on the switch. Roost also guarantees that Zapdos can stay alive and switch in when Suicune is left.
Now obviously, no one in their right mind would send out Crocune with any of those 4 Pokemon on the opposing side. On the flip side, no half-competent player would leave in their Suicune counter in to die when they see a Suicune on the other side of the field. Roserade's, Shaymin's, and Zapdos' easy recovery options will make sure that they can be there for Suicune, and this is why I feel Suicune should stay down in B. It requires support, and it's not something like Spikes support, where you can set it up yourself. It's support that can only be accomplished if your opponent is stupid and doesn't know much about the metagame. This alone should warrant that Suicune should stay in B rank.
I personally do like gligar, but I'm going to be honest and say that it's fine at C-Rank.
y'know how it walls the supercommon heracross and mienshao? Well, even those two mon's can take on Gligar with ease, with SD and HP ice respectively.
This thread has a lot of talk about gligar: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-stats-may-2013.3484437/
Onto Suicune thoughts, I'm calling it B-rank for what a bunch of people have said. It's threatening, and it's strong, but the fact that its sweep is halted by a bunch of common 'mons just makes it a cut below A-rank. It is useful and dangerous though.
Manectric seems like it's just outclassed by Raikou, and even Rotom-H to an extent. I know it has Flamethrower/Overheat/w/e, but Raikou doesn't need that when he has Calm Mind, with base 115 spatk and speed. Rotom-H loses a chunk of speed, but cool typing plus STAB Overheat give it a couple cool resistances (although admittedly, SR weakness sucks). I don't really see any reason to use it... of any roles it can use, other 'mons do better (I never use it, but Galvantula is faster and has a secondary STAB...I would think it'd be more effective than a failed Raikou clone).
This thread has been really popular and pretty successful, but now discussion has fallen to really minor changes and discussion has majorly dried up. The metagame hasn't changed at all in months, there's nothing new to discuss. If you have arguments for a big change, post them now and we'll do one final update, then let this topic rest until the metagame shifts (which it may never do).
I actually think at this point, now that the ranks are almost set, it should be a good idea to be able to do divide the ranks into three sections (ie, Top, Mid and Low), and spark up discussion on dividing the ranks. This could really bring up some discussion on the different levels of viability of Pokemon in same rankings. Just pointing that out there.
I'm all for sub-tiering, UU is the only tier (except maybe Ubers and LC) that hasn't started sub-tiering yet. It also sparks good debates, I could see a couple of the S-Tier mons being borderline Top-S that could create a good debate on what placement it deserves, this thread has really slowed down
So I talked about it before but here's a replay showing how useful Poliwrath can be:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-39608657
It switches for free into many water types or any Pokemon locked into resists (fighters locked into Stone Edge, electrics locked into HP Ice). Its typing makes it a good answer to stuff like Sharpedo, Escavalier, and Durant and it can set up on many common walls such as the aforementioned bulky waters, Umbreon, and Gligar. Substitute allows it to scout for the opponent trying to switch into water or ghosts types and nail them appropriately and it can sweep whole teams with a few boosts.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-39608657
It switches for free into many water types or any Pokemon locked into resists (fighters locked into Stone Edge, electrics locked into HP Ice). Its typing makes it a good answer to stuff like Sharpedo, Escavalier, and Durant and it can set up on many common walls such as the aforementioned bulky waters, Umbreon, and Gligar. Substitute allows it to scout for the opponent trying to switch into water or ghosts types and nail them appropriately and it can sweep whole teams with a few boosts.
Poliwrath needs to be ranked already. Someone brought it up super early in the thread and then I brought it back up again, but no dice. >:l I feel the guy could at least be worthy of a C-Rank at the lowest, that unique fighting type is useful. I mean as a bulky water the defensive set has its limits, but the Sub Bulk Up set can do work in its own right. And everything the guy said above me is pretty relevant, it's not hard to find most pokes in UU for Poliwrath to setup on, I even got it in and went for Substitute on a Blastoise trying to Toxic me and then Focus Punching as he went for Roar, which was basically a free hit. The only bulky water who I've seen to give Poliwrath problems is Slowbro for real. And that's kind of a big deal when you consider the fact that bulky waters in general are often the go-to backup physical walls to check most fighting-types with.
While we're on the subject of bulky water types, I would like to nominate siesmitoad for C-Tier. Yes, it is outclassed by swampert, but it does have a useful trick going for it, water absorb. While swampert lacks any sort of recovery outside of leftovers, Seismitoad can extend it's life by switching in on all the bulky water types in the tier going burn fishing with scald. This also makes it a hard-counter to crocune, who seems to be coming more common. It's bulk and offensive prowess aren't up to tier with swampert, but it can definately hold it's own since they have much of the same move pool, including stealth rocks. It also gets swift swim if you need a backup mon for when kingdra faints, a nice duel stab along with good bulk makes it a threatining sweeper.
Seriously. Those defensive stats are inferior to Infernape's (Camerupt 70 / 70 / 75 < Infernape 76 / 71 / 71)
Have you ever seen a defensive Infernape, tho?
No, I have not.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 128-151 (37.2 - 43.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Infernape: 132-156 (37.07 - 43.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And I'm not saying that this is AT ALL pragmatically relevant. Typing / tiering / etc.-- I know that those are the factors that ARE pragmatically relevant, in real practice.
I'm just amusedly pointing out we're talking about a special tank set for a poke who is frailer than Infernape.
I was using Seismitoad a few days ago for exactly the reasons KFC brought up and I found it really lacking in bulk. But running some calcs now I realize that I was using the standard NU spread and thus was more specially defensive. I think it is definitely worth investigating, maybe using a Sub Toxic set in order to dodge Toxic from opposing bulky waters?
Also Chou that's funny as hell.
Also Chou that's funny as hell.