I'm happy with what I've seen so far of the sub ranking, unless another mod objects I'll help out updating the OP when we have substantial discussion.
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Lower Tiers The UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
I'd be fine with some drops to A+Rank since its hard to take S-Rank serious when there are so many stuff there. Zapdos could easily drop honestly and maybe raikou, but im not sure if any of the others are worth dropping. Note that dropping something does not mean it inst a threat anymore, after all A+Rank is still a lot.
Another thing you have to consider is how much prep the average team does for a mon. A lot of these mons are amazing on paper, but under perform in actual battles due to metagame shifts making their checks and counters more apparent. Taking that into account, I think the list should be as follows.
High S: Snorlax, Victini , Froslass
Low S: Raikou, Mienshao, Zapdos,
A+: Kingdra, Chandelure
A: Togekiss
I know it looks sorta weird, so I'll explain.
HIGH S
Snorlax is the all around best pokemon in the tier. Seriously. 70% of teams I see can be improved simply by slapping a Snorlax on it, whether it's CB, SpDefensive, or a Curse variant. Even with all these fighting types running around in the tier, it's still a menace. CB poops on offensive teams, with opponents forced to sac something and try to revenge it in order to get a kill. Having a Snorlax on your team pretty much bans things like Azelf and Mismagius from coming in until it's dead. Specially defensive snorlax is the best special wall in the tier, and counters many things in S rank, like Zapdos, Raikou, Special Victini, Chandelure without Trick, Togekiss...etc. While this doesn't sweep teams (well, Curse lategame does), it differs from a lot of other S tier mons as it can switch in and out throughout game without worrying about momentum and still do its job amazingly well. It's not without faults however. Bulkier fighting types like Cobalion seriously neuter it, and it's in constantly in fear of being given a scarf/specs and being burned.
Victini is also ridiculously good. Probably too good. Putting CB Victini on your team means you don't lose to stall. Ever. A combination of V Create and Bolt Strike OHKO-2KO pretty everything a stall team runs. "But Insomniac!" you say, "I don't run full stall! I'll just switch in Rhyperior on a V Create and-" NOPE. It was actually a mixtini, and you just killed by Grass Knot. CB, Mixed Expert Belt, Special, Trick room, Sunny Day all have different checks and counters, and will catch you by surprise. A well played Victini will get a kill every match due to the set variety. However, it is SR weak, meaning if you don't baby it, it's probably not surviving to lategame. 100 speed is fine for wallbreaking, but not enough for sweeping, so it can't run Work Up. It's also vulnerable to scarf pursuits, so it' needs to be played cautiously if those are a possibility.
Froslass doesn't need much explanation I hope; it just does it's job, does it well. A layer of spikes is 100% garunteed, oftentimes getting mutiple layers and a kill. It's just good. Froslass is one of the true leads left in the meta, for good reason. Even if you know exactly what it's doing, it's still an absolute bitch to face.
LOW S
Raikou is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the current meta. SubCM gets really strong, really fast. It one of the best late game sweepers in the meta. Once you weaken things like Swampert enough for it to die from HP Ice, you've pretty much won. Or you could come in a bulky water, boost to +3 and 2KO the entire tier. 115 base speed is blinding, and let's it beat things like Kingdra and Banded Flygon. But SubCM is not it's best set, imo. Scarf is where it shines. Other scarfers (Meinshao, Darmanitan, Nidoking, etc) should live in fear of Scarf Raikou. Timid Scarfed Raikou is faster than the entire tier, and with Volt Switch, can come in and out of the match multiple times, racking up damage. Scarf Raikou can often sweep offensive teams, with Thunderbolt 2KOing things like Roserade and Heracross. It also murders everything on a rain team. However, it's not without its problems. SubCM has major trouble against Snorlax and Umbreon, it can't do enough damage without boosting, but it's subs get trashed in a single hit. Scarf sets get murked by ground types not named Flygon, and none of it's other moves are really spammable. If you want to run Aura Sphere, you're going to be outsped by Scarf Meinshao and Kingdra in the rain. Unlike the folks in top S, it has some hard counters, and not much variety in what it can run successfully. Whiles these may seem like heavy flaws, those two sets eat up 80% of the meta it's not even funny.
Mienshao is also another one that needs little explanation. Those other sets, Sub BP, Fake out, etc are sup optimal. All you need to run is CS with Aerial Ace. Come in, U-turn around early-mid game. HJK attempted sweeps. Regenerator means it switches in and out with impunity, and combined with U-turn means you deal a lot of risk free damage, even with hazards on the field. Problem is that choiced fighting brings in a lot of opportunities for ghosts to set up. It's extremely frail; if it's not U-turning or killing, it's fainting. It's hard countered by things like Gligar and Amoongus and highly vulnerable to priority (+2 Bisharp Sucker Punch OHKO w/ sr). However it needs very little support, and pretty much carries it's own weight. You can stick it on any offensive team and it'll synergize fairly well and simply do its job.
Zapdos can run a variety of very good sets. The offensive set cleavers balanced teams with the unresisted combination of Thunderbolt, Heatwave, and HP Grass. Defensive and SpDefensive sets are ace on stall teams. Both SR weakness and LO recoil and neutralized by Roost. The fact that Zapdos is simultaneously one of the best specially offensive, specially defensive, and physically defensive mons in the tier secures it's spot in S rank. However, like other special attackers, Snorlax and Umbreon give it hell.
A+
Kingdra can also run a variety of sets. ChestoRest is a midgame, and oftentimes, turns midgame into lategame. One of the best answers to stall out there. Rain dance is an instant killer to offensive teams. Kingdra is also the best sweeper on rain teams. The problem is, it's slow, and can be revenged after a DD and in the rain. It is also 100% hard countered by Empoleon, with other bulky waters giving it lots of trouble as well. Kingdra cannot be used effectively without those being taken out by teammates.
Chandelure is a murderous wall breaker that chews up stall for breakfast. Specs, Sub 3 attacks, and SubSplit all eat up stall. Problem is, Chandeulure suffers from 4mss. If he could run Overheat,Flamethrower,Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Substitute, Pain Split,HP Fighting and Trick, then yeah, he would be S rank. Without those, however, he is either getting shut down by Bulky Waters, or Snorlax/Umbreon, or fast Pursuiters. Most likely a combination. His speed is abysmal vs offensive teams, leaving him OHKOd by things like Nidoking, PorygonZ, and Weavile. Once his troubles are cleared by teammates he can end games, but not before them.
A(or lower)
Togekiss' support skills are frankly overrated. Yeah it can run paraflinch, but that's not doing much in high level play. Togekiss' best option is lategame defensive NP sweeping, which needs serious team support.
High S: Snorlax, Victini , Froslass
Low S: Raikou, Mienshao, Zapdos,
A+: Kingdra, Chandelure
A: Togekiss
I know it looks sorta weird, so I'll explain.
HIGH S
Snorlax is the all around best pokemon in the tier. Seriously. 70% of teams I see can be improved simply by slapping a Snorlax on it, whether it's CB, SpDefensive, or a Curse variant. Even with all these fighting types running around in the tier, it's still a menace. CB poops on offensive teams, with opponents forced to sac something and try to revenge it in order to get a kill. Having a Snorlax on your team pretty much bans things like Azelf and Mismagius from coming in until it's dead. Specially defensive snorlax is the best special wall in the tier, and counters many things in S rank, like Zapdos, Raikou, Special Victini, Chandelure without Trick, Togekiss...etc. While this doesn't sweep teams (well, Curse lategame does), it differs from a lot of other S tier mons as it can switch in and out throughout game without worrying about momentum and still do its job amazingly well. It's not without faults however. Bulkier fighting types like Cobalion seriously neuter it, and it's in constantly in fear of being given a scarf/specs and being burned.
Victini is also ridiculously good. Probably too good. Putting CB Victini on your team means you don't lose to stall. Ever. A combination of V Create and Bolt Strike OHKO-2KO pretty everything a stall team runs. "But Insomniac!" you say, "I don't run full stall! I'll just switch in Rhyperior on a V Create and-" NOPE. It was actually a mixtini, and you just killed by Grass Knot. CB, Mixed Expert Belt, Special, Trick room, Sunny Day all have different checks and counters, and will catch you by surprise. A well played Victini will get a kill every match due to the set variety. However, it is SR weak, meaning if you don't baby it, it's probably not surviving to lategame. 100 speed is fine for wallbreaking, but not enough for sweeping, so it can't run Work Up. It's also vulnerable to scarf pursuits, so it' needs to be played cautiously if those are a possibility.
Froslass doesn't need much explanation I hope; it just does it's job, does it well. A layer of spikes is 100% garunteed, oftentimes getting mutiple layers and a kill. It's just good. Froslass is one of the true leads left in the meta, for good reason. Even if you know exactly what it's doing, it's still an absolute bitch to face.
LOW S
Raikou is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the current meta. SubCM gets really strong, really fast. It one of the best late game sweepers in the meta. Once you weaken things like Swampert enough for it to die from HP Ice, you've pretty much won. Or you could come in a bulky water, boost to +3 and 2KO the entire tier. 115 base speed is blinding, and let's it beat things like Kingdra and Banded Flygon. But SubCM is not it's best set, imo. Scarf is where it shines. Other scarfers (Meinshao, Darmanitan, Nidoking, etc) should live in fear of Scarf Raikou. Timid Scarfed Raikou is faster than the entire tier, and with Volt Switch, can come in and out of the match multiple times, racking up damage. Scarf Raikou can often sweep offensive teams, with Thunderbolt 2KOing things like Roserade and Heracross. It also murders everything on a rain team. However, it's not without its problems. SubCM has major trouble against Snorlax and Umbreon, it can't do enough damage without boosting, but it's subs get trashed in a single hit. Scarf sets get murked by ground types not named Flygon, and none of it's other moves are really spammable. If you want to run Aura Sphere, you're going to be outsped by Scarf Meinshao and Kingdra in the rain. Unlike the folks in top S, it has some hard counters, and not much variety in what it can run successfully. Whiles these may seem like heavy flaws, those two sets eat up 80% of the meta it's not even funny.
Mienshao is also another one that needs little explanation. Those other sets, Sub BP, Fake out, etc are sup optimal. All you need to run is CS with Aerial Ace. Come in, U-turn around early-mid game. HJK attempted sweeps. Regenerator means it switches in and out with impunity, and combined with U-turn means you deal a lot of risk free damage, even with hazards on the field. Problem is that choiced fighting brings in a lot of opportunities for ghosts to set up. It's extremely frail; if it's not U-turning or killing, it's fainting. It's hard countered by things like Gligar and Amoongus and highly vulnerable to priority (+2 Bisharp Sucker Punch OHKO w/ sr). However it needs very little support, and pretty much carries it's own weight. You can stick it on any offensive team and it'll synergize fairly well and simply do its job.
Zapdos can run a variety of very good sets. The offensive set cleavers balanced teams with the unresisted combination of Thunderbolt, Heatwave, and HP Grass. Defensive and SpDefensive sets are ace on stall teams. Both SR weakness and LO recoil and neutralized by Roost. The fact that Zapdos is simultaneously one of the best specially offensive, specially defensive, and physically defensive mons in the tier secures it's spot in S rank. However, like other special attackers, Snorlax and Umbreon give it hell.
A+
Kingdra can also run a variety of sets. ChestoRest is a midgame, and oftentimes, turns midgame into lategame. One of the best answers to stall out there. Rain dance is an instant killer to offensive teams. Kingdra is also the best sweeper on rain teams. The problem is, it's slow, and can be revenged after a DD and in the rain. It is also 100% hard countered by Empoleon, with other bulky waters giving it lots of trouble as well. Kingdra cannot be used effectively without those being taken out by teammates.
Chandelure is a murderous wall breaker that chews up stall for breakfast. Specs, Sub 3 attacks, and SubSplit all eat up stall. Problem is, Chandeulure suffers from 4mss. If he could run Overheat,Flamethrower,Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Substitute, Pain Split,HP Fighting and Trick, then yeah, he would be S rank. Without those, however, he is either getting shut down by Bulky Waters, or Snorlax/Umbreon, or fast Pursuiters. Most likely a combination. His speed is abysmal vs offensive teams, leaving him OHKOd by things like Nidoking, PorygonZ, and Weavile. Once his troubles are cleared by teammates he can end games, but not before them.
A(or lower)
Togekiss' support skills are frankly overrated. Yeah it can run paraflinch, but that's not doing much in high level play. Togekiss' best option is lategame defensive NP sweeping, which needs serious team support.
Empoleon does not ''counter'' kingdra. Its just a ridiculous shaky answer that will only be able to phaze it at best (think like what skarmory does to physical attackers in ou). Seriously a boosted kingdra (rain dance or dragon dance) can easily do 38% to empoleon which really builds up when you realize empoleon has no recovery. The ONLY way to actually stop kingdra is revenge killing it with scarfers. No more no less. This guarantes it a spot in Top S-Rank. Chandelure can get past umbreon with a life orb or specs so its not really a reliable answer and even milotic can be 2hkoed. Offensive lax and trace porygon2 are really the only reliable switch ins and other than that youre forced to revenge kill it. Seriously this thing is a monster and should be no lower than Top S-Rank.
There is no way Togekiss is that low. First of all, Togekiss' paraflinch is doing much in high level play, since it can provide Paralysis support, which can make bulky offense deadly, and it can also abuse the whole 70% chance of completely free damage. It also through this set, can put a thorn in the side of speedy offensive teams. Also, you do not need serious team support for late-game NP sweeping, as the set is also effective at breaking through stall teams that potentially give your team trouble.
I don't understand this irrational hate of dusclops on smogon. I'm going to argue that it is much more viable than it is given credit for. Of course, I am a PO player, so I had played it in a metagame without froslass or roserade, which definitely makes a difference, but not enough to account for such a hatred of dusclops. To start, looking at the ONE smogon set for dusclops. They only have a curse set. I can totally understand hating dusclops if people think the only to use it is to cut out half of its HP so that something can just switch out against it. However, I would say that the best dusclops set uses Rest/Sleep Talk/Wil-O-Wisp/Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Obviously the point is that you can get reliable healing out of rest without being absolutely forced to heal bell to make dusclops usable again. The difference between this set used by dusclops and by cofagrigus comes in two forms. The less important one is the lefties vs extra bulk argument.
252Atk Choice Band Dragonite (+Atk) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def EvioliteCofagrigus (+Def): 57% - 67% (183 - 216 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Dragonite (+Atk) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def EvioliteDusclops (+Def): 46% - 55% (133 - 157 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 16% chance to 2HKO.
As seen, the difference in physical bulk is in dusclops favor, but cofagrigus has lefties.
252SpAtk Choice Specs Dragonite (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/0SpDef Eviolite Cofagrigus (Neutral): 94% - 110% (301 - 355 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 64% chance to OHKO.
252SpAtk Choice Specs Dragonite (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/0SpDef Eviolite Dusclops (Neutral): 59% - 69% (168 - 198 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
However Dusclops does have significantly more special bulk.
The next difference between the two pokemon using these sets. Dusclops has PRESSURE. I know the notion of pressure stalling isn't appealing, but it is effective. I had my dusclops use burning+seismic toss along with no sleep talking on rests to pressure stall countless of times. Many times dusclops would be the last pokemon left and finish off 3-4 remaining healthy pokemon on the opponents team (oftentimes having to pressure stall things like umbreon). Also, while dusclops is asleep the opponent still has to fear the wil-o-wisp and attacking move, even if it does not always pull one. I, for one, would be hesitant to switch a honchcrow into a sleeping dusclops. Oh and I also forgot to mention that dusclops can also rock a specially defensive set and easily pp stall seed flares/draco meteors/hydro pumps and just be a great special wall in general while still physically walling the things it was meant to wall (mienshao,heracross,machamp,bulky rhyperiors, etc)
On a side note, I am not just some random nub trying to defend the underdog like most of you are probably thinking. I have multiple #1 peaks in UU on PO, one of which relied heavily on the capabilities of the sleeptalking dusclops set. Of course, there is a chance I overlooked some big difference in the way UU is played between smogon and PO, but I still do not believe the difference can be THAT significant.
I agree with moving dusclops up, preferably to Low C-Rank because while it is bad, it really isn't as bad as claydol or Cryonagal. Here is my previous argument.
Top
Victini
Snorlax
Kingdra
Mid
Mienshao
Froslass
Low
Zapdos
Togekiss
Chandelure
Raikou
I'll give my explanation later, when I have some free time..
Also, here are my thoughts on the top/mid/low S-rankings.
Top
Victini
Snorlax
Kingdra
Mid
Mienshao
Froslass
Low
Zapdos
Togekiss
Chandelure
Raikou
I'll give my explanation later, when I have some free time..
The #1 reason I'd say Dusclops should stay in D-Rank is that its complete set up bait. Sure it can Seismic Toss or burn you but all some pokemon need is 1 turn to set up (Togekiss, Kingdra, Cofagrigus, Porygon-Z, and Scrafty to name afew) Having to choose between Siesmic Toss and Night Shade causes further problems, if you choose Night Shade then Normal types set up all over it, if Seimic Toss then Ghost types do. Sure Dusclops can take a hit but all it has to rely on recovery wise is Rest. After getting hit a couple times its just forced to put itself to sleep and rely on Sleep Talk to choose the right move for it (I personally think RestTalk is a poor strategy overall).
On another topic, I think Kabutops deserves to be ranked in C-Tier. First off its a monster in the rain, far the best physical rain sweeper in UU. I've also been recently trying a bulk offensive rapid spinner, and I'm actually quite surprised at how effective it is. It has nice dual STABs and access to priority Aqua Jet and Stealth Rock. It's special bulk is pretty poor but it does have a useful 4x resistance to Fire and decent physical bulk.
On another topic, I think Kabutops deserves to be ranked in C-Tier. First off its a monster in the rain, far the best physical rain sweeper in UU. I've also been recently trying a bulk offensive rapid spinner, and I'm actually quite surprised at how effective it is. It has nice dual STABs and access to priority Aqua Jet and Stealth Rock. It's special bulk is pretty poor but it does have a useful 4x resistance to Fire and decent physical bulk.
I don't care either way about Dusclops's rank, but as a notice, Dusclops gets Pain Split to heal itself outside of Rest, and Dusclops's main use is (or should be) to use Curse and be a buffer as it slowly dies, which makes it difficult to set up on it because you are immediately placed on a timer.
The other cool thing about Curse is that it bypasses the effect of Substitute and iirc Protect, so the effects of Curse cannot be avoided. Dusclops also has insane bulk that's good enough so it can endure a hit after it has laid its Curse, and along with its shitty HP stat and weakened, Dusclops can make use of Pain Split to heal itself and wear down the opponent further. It's a fine staller between Curse, Pain Split, and Will-O-Wisp.
That said, I'm not completely opposed to Dusclops being C-Rank, because while it's outclassed by Cofagrigus a lot of the time, it has uses on heavy stall teams as a staller that can stall down the opponent between Curse, Pain Split, and WoW, wearing down opponents to the point where they can't put up much of a fight anymore. Curse is also really useful because stall teams tend to find themselves set up on pretty easily, so you can put threatening stallbreakers such as BU Scrafty and NP+Heal Bell Togekiss on a timer to prevent them from threatening your team for too long. I don't mind where it gets placed, but I'm just saying I'm not opposed at all.
I agree with Kabutops being C-Rank. It's a pretty good rain sweeper packing some real good Speed as well as power under the rain, and has Waterfall+Stone Edge to wreck shit while it's at it. It also outspeeds Scarf Mienshao in the rain (if you don't believe me, 259*2=518, 339*1.5=508 rounded down), which is amazing and helps its sweeping potential greatly. Kabutops is also a viable Rapid Spinner, and can pull off some stuff and handily beat some of the spinblockers in its own way (probably not Dusclops, but whatever). Kabutops can also run offensive spin, even on rain where it can be a great Tornadus partner.
That said, I'm not completely opposed to Dusclops being C-Rank, because while it's outclassed by Cofagrigus a lot of the time, it has uses on heavy stall teams as a staller that can stall down the opponent between Curse, Pain Split, and WoW, wearing down opponents to the point where they can't put up much of a fight anymore. Curse is also really useful because stall teams tend to find themselves set up on pretty easily, so you can put threatening stallbreakers such as BU Scrafty and NP+Heal Bell Togekiss on a timer to prevent them from threatening your team for too long. I don't mind where it gets placed, but I'm just saying I'm not opposed at all.
I agree with Kabutops being C-Rank. It's a pretty good rain sweeper packing some real good Speed as well as power under the rain, and has Waterfall+Stone Edge to wreck shit while it's at it. It also outspeeds Scarf Mienshao in the rain (if you don't believe me, 259*2=518, 339*1.5=508 rounded down), which is amazing and helps its sweeping potential greatly. Kabutops is also a viable Rapid Spinner, and can pull off some stuff and handily beat some of the spinblockers in its own way (probably not Dusclops, but whatever). Kabutops can also run offensive spin, even on rain where it can be a great Tornadus partner.
Hey, I've been playtesting Swellow a bit and I think it might deserve a place in d tier. One argument off the bat I have is that if you compare current UU to UU last generation (DPP), whilst it may seem like the two are completely different. I don't really think they are - certainly not as different as ou is for example. Given this, and the fact that last gen UU, Swellow was, for a time, a significant threat in the metagame, I'm not entirely sure why it's never used now. There are obviously many new pokemon that give it trouble such as Crobat if it outspeeds, Rhyperior and Weavile, but the fact still remains that Swellow is very good with spikes support. Thus, when paired with Froslass, Swellow can be a great late game sweeper. It has a great speed tier and has good power off the bat, with no need to set up. It can easily keep offensive pressure on the opponent through u-turn whilst it's counters almost universally take spikes damage (besides Bronzong). It's speed allows it to check many pokemon in the same manner as Crobat (such as dd scrafty) and late game it can often clean with ease. One main argument against it I see is that it's somewhat outclassed by Crobat in a lot of situations, but Crobat doesn't have the late game sweeping potential that Swellow does.
Swellow is probably an objectively pretty weak pokemon (being pretty much walled by steels and rocks) but I feel this metagame really suits it (easy spikes support, access to spinners, relatively few steels and rocks and I think it could find a niche as a fast late game cleaner).
Swellow is probably an objectively pretty weak pokemon (being pretty much walled by steels and rocks) but I feel this metagame really suits it (easy spikes support, access to spinners, relatively few steels and rocks and I think it could find a niche as a fast late game cleaner).
I truly dont get the point of adding stuff to D-Rank. If you have had success with swellow then should suggest it to C-Rank since its more fitting with a pokemon that is mostly outclassed but has a niche in the meta.
I've been recently using Swellow in NU and it certainly is powerful, but I just don't think that it could really work in UU. Priority attacks are much more common, walls have more bulk, Scarf users are on every team, and Ghosts (most notably Mummy Cofargigus) are more common. Swellow is just too suicidal for it's own good, with Toxic damage, Stealth Rocks present in almost every match, and Brave Bird recoil all taking toll its tough for Swellow to stay alive. It also has no way to deal with the things that counter it (Rock and Steel types) besides maybe U-Turn out.
I assume you support sub-categorizing the other ranks though? That's how it is in the OU Rankings at least.
Here's my take on A-Rank:
A+: Abomasnow, Cofagrigus, Heracross, Rhyperior, Roserade
A: Crobat, Flygon, Mew, Slowbro, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Weavile, Umbreon
A-: Azelf, Darmanitan, Slowking, Swampert, Venomoth
Here's my take on A-Rank:
A+: Abomasnow, Cofagrigus, Heracross, Rhyperior, Roserade
A: Crobat, Flygon, Mew, Slowbro, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Weavile, Umbreon
A-: Azelf, Darmanitan, Slowking, Swampert, Venomoth
I'd personally move Umbreon and Sharpedo to A-. Umbreon is an amazing Special Wall and cleric, but it's set up fodder for a lot of threats, which prevents it from doing as much good as it should. Sharpedo is just not strong enough to be more than a late game sweeper and needs a significant amount of support. Don't get me wrong, both of these pokes are amazing but I wouldn't classify them as solid A Rank.
Other than that, that A list subdivisioning looks spot on to me :O
Other than that, that A list subdivisioning looks spot on to me :O
I'll take a jab at this.
Top A:
Abomasnow commands an entire playstyle in UU, that being hail. It makes Pokemon such as Rotom-F and Walrein much more deadly, while having residual damage that can put limits on the common Leftovers and Life Orb, which is also a plus to it. It can improve your ability to throw nasty Blizzards at the opponent, and also is taken advantage of by threats such as Nidoqueen and Slowbro. Abomasnow also has an excellent typing offensively, giving it good coverage to lay the hurt, and some useful resistances to stall with SubSeed. Definitely Top A imo.
Cofagrigus is a very useful Pokemon in UU, as it is the quintessential Ghost-type in the tier. It has a number of useful traits and fulfills many important roles in the tier. It checks the prominent Fighting-types that dominate the UU metagame, especially Heracross and Mienshao, giving it very useful utility in general. It also has special sweeping potential, having TR+NP to be extremely dangerous, and two-move coverage is certainly something that makes it no pushover. Cofagrigus is also staple on offensive Spike stacking teams as an excellent spinblocker, being able to take hits and holding its own with TR+NP and utilizing the Spike support of its own to pull off its own sweep. It's one of the most useful Pokemon in the tier and is a very top notch A threat.
Crobat is a highly unique Pokemon in the UU metagame, and fulfills a role that no other Pokemon can do. While its stats and movepool might cut into its appeal, Crobat is one to not be judged by its cover. Its Speed, along with Taunt, Roost, a decently powerful Brave Bird, and to an extent Super Fang make Crobat an anti-meta Pokemon and stallbreaker in one. Between Taunt, Roost, and its decently powerful Brave Birds, it can make stall teams cringe, as they cannot do much of anything back to it while it repeatedly wears them down. It also can check many prominent threats in the UU metagame, such as Heracross, Roserade, Mienshao, Scrafty, and Shaymin (and a fuckton more Pokemon, it would take at least 4 lines to go down the whole list), with its Speed and Brave Bird. Crobat also scouts very well with U-turn, another cool trait in its favor.
Heracross is a powerful wallbreaker, and although its Moxie Scarf set faces competition as a Scarfed Fighting-type by Mienshao (and is easily prepared for), Heracross's other sets hold much merit. Its excellent STAB combo and power make it a strong hard hitter, and Guts is a very useful ability to absorb burns from Sableye, Dusclops, and Cofagrigus while laying hard damage. Swords Dance and Choice Band are both great ways to make use of its wallbreaking prowess, and it can be a complete pain to switch into, and is great at laying the hurt. Definitely a force to be reckoned with.
Kinda like Crobat, Mew's stats might cut into the appeal of using it, but Mew is a very good Pokemon. Its main selling point lies mainly in its versatility (kinda like Mesprit in RU), so that it can fulfill many different roles, and it is never easy to predict what exactly Mew is going to do, and even when you do find out, it's probably too late. Mew can be a boosting sweeper on both ends, and can go either physical or special, both sets being strong. It can also serve as a defensive SR user, to support its team while burning or paralyzing. It's a pretty versatile Pokemon in all and is probably Top A. Not much to say other than it's rather hard to fit on offensive teams, but either way is great.
Rhyperior is amazing in UU atm, and is just super useful. With the massive threat level of Raikou and Zapdos, as well as Rotom-H, Rhyperior does so well as a tank to take on those pesky Electric-types, being of great help for the team. Rhyperior also provides one of the best moves in the game, Stealth Rock, with only sweetens the deal and is great support. Rhyperior also has Dragon Tail to shuffle up teams. In addition, Rhyperior has good bulk and Solid Rock, meaning it can take hits very well. It also has an insane Attack and the amazing EdgeQuake STAB combo, meaning it can hit most of the tier really hard even without investment. CB and RP sets are both amazing, as the former is a wallbreaker and has no true counters, while the latter is a pretty strong sweeper overall. In addition, much like its pre-evolution, Rhyperior is extremely manly, and this gives Rhyperior an edge over most of the A-Rank Pokemon, and is another reason to put it in Top A.
Roserade is the former #1 Pokemon in UU, and is worthy of that former glory. It can serve as both an offensive powerhouse and useful team supporter, and as such, it can very often be what you're looking for. Roserade has awesome power in Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb, as well as Extrasensory/Hidden Power to work with, and with either Choice Specs or Life Orb, Roserade makes an amazing wallbreaker. It also has Sleep Powder on the wallbreaking sets to essentially eliminate a counter, which only sweetens the deal. It also has Natural Cure, and it can run either Synthesis or Rest+Natural Cure to work with, and keep itself healthy. Natural Cure also means Roserade is a great way to absorb status, and help for teams that dislike Scalds and Sableye/Dusclops. It can also support its team with its usable special bulk and typing, while laying down Spikes, a useful entry hazard to have. It also has Aromatherapy and Toxic Spikes to boot, which helps. (oh and Leech Seed lol). Overall a very useful Pokemon and is definitely among the top of A-Rankers imo.
Sharpedo is the epitome of late-game cleaning, even moreso than Krookodile and Honchkrow. Its ability, Speed Boost, is one of the best in the entire game, and once Sharpedo gets one or two boosts, it's usually game over. Its useful offensive typing and high Attack mean it can handily sweep down many teams, and with hazard support alone it's a really neat win condition. It also has a good Special Attack, so it can run a special set as well, that has the ability to break down physical walls as well as the surprise factor. One of the best late game cleaners and possibly broken, a Top A-Rank mon imo.
Mid A:
Azelf is probably a Mid A-Rank Pokemon imo. It's a really good Pokemon on offensive teams, and has a lot going for it. It can be a really dangerous sweeper with NP, and its high Speed and power mean it can be really hard to stop, and its coverage is nothing to laugh at either. It also can shine as a Stealth Rock lead, and can Taunt+SR to be a suicide lead, or just use SR+3 Attacks to support the team but also lay some hard damage. It also has a viable CB set to revenge kill, hit hard, and have surprise factor, as well as Dual Screens and weather to support its team decently.
Flygon has a rare Ground / Dragon typing, giving it very good coverage in UU and make it a great hard hitter. CB Flygon is great for EQ+Outrage, and breaks down teams like a complete boss. EQ also is great because it can pummel incoming Cobalion, Bisharp, and Empoleon. It's also got U-turn to switch in and out of battle to scout, and Levitate+SR resist means it doesn't give two fucks about entry hazards. It's also decently bulky, and can take a couple of hits, and the only thing that can OHKO it at full HP is probably Reckless HJK from Mienshao. Scarf Flygon is possible for revenge killing but is subpar otherwise.
Slowbro is one of the better physical walls in UU, and can handle common threats such as Mienshao and friends pretty well. It has a lot of bulk and Regenerator+Slack Off is great so it can constantly stay healthy. It is also a great pivot with Specs, as it can come in, hit something pretty hard, and switch to constantly stay healthy. Its weaknesses are unfortunately very exploitable, with threats such as Heracross, Chandelure, and to an extent Sharpedo/Krookodile.
Ughh, Umbreon is a very annoying Pokemon in general. It is extremely bulky on both ends, especially the special side, and is a bitch to take down by most special attackers, bar Chandelure. It is the single best special wall in UU, as it can take many hits for weeks, and it can take a couple of physical hits too by virtue of its great Defense. It supports its team so well with Wish and Heal Bell, and keeps your team pretty healthy; the latter along with Synchronize make it hard to take down by status. Its access to Foul Play is also amazing, so it can heavily dent incoming physical attackers.
Weavile is a great physical sweeper, having one of the best Speeds in the entire game. While its typing is atrocious defensively, that has almost no impact aside from the SR weakness, because Weavile is frail anyways. It has all the tools it needs to be a strong offensive threat: Speed, high Power, Swords Dance, and great coverage means Weavile can handily sweep a number of teams. Its STAB Combo is also great in that none of the physical attackers resist the combo, and as such they take heavy damage from Weavile. Weavile is also one of the better Pursuit trappers in UU, as its Speed, power, and with a CB intact it can trap common threats such as Azelf, Mew, etc.
Low A:
In terms of pure power, Darmanitan is right up there. Its 140 Attack, and SF+LO Flare Blitz is insane, and Darmanitan can flat out destroy most of the tier. It has Superpower, QuakeSlide, and U-turn as well for coverage options. It is also immune to burns, and has an amazing amount of power to wallbreak in general. Its Speed tier is not too bad either, so it can outspeed a number of things, especially Chandelure and Heracross. The main thing putting this at Low A though is its issue with being worn down really easily.
Shaymin is a pretty good Pokemon, with a great Seed Flare to work with as well as useful coverage options in Earth Power, Psychic, Air Slash, and Hidden Power. It can hit pretty hard, and has Synthesis and Rest+Natural Cure as recovery. It also can run SubSeed to be incredibly annoying, and has pretty good bulk overall. It also has a fine Speed tier to outspeed a couple of things, although Mienshao and the less common Scolipede can be problematic. Shaymin also has Natural Cure to absorb burns for those kind of teams, which helps. Shaymin faces very stiff competition from Roserade, however, who has much more power, Spikes, Sludge Bomb, and Sleep Powder. Nonetheless, Shaymin is still really good, and fits fine in Low A.
Slowking is a really good Pokemon on balanced teams. It has a useful defensive typing allowing it to take on prominent Fire and Fighting types that take prominence in UU, and has good bulk overall as well as great utility in T-Wave, Dragon Tail, and Scald. It also has Slack Off+Regenerator. Slowking has better special bulk than Slowbro, which make it a good mixed wall, while makes it by far the best matchup against Kingdra; if you're team really wants something to handle Kingdra better, you can count on Slowking. It can take a hit from it and retaliate with Dragon Tail/Thunder Wave, and even if it will sometimes lose one-on-one, Slowking helps greatly so it will leave Kingdra weakened to the point where your team can handle it quite easily. Dragon Tail is also useful to make it harder to switch into than Slowbro, and it can rack up hazard damage. It can also run TR+NP and be dangerous, just like Cofagrigus. It has some competition from Slowbro, but Slowking excels in utility where it lacks in pure bulk.
Swampert is a great check to Electric-types, as well as setting up Stealth Rock. It has a useful STAB combo and decent power to boot, and has a rage inducing Scald. It also has the ability to take a lot of hits, and can phaze with Roar. It can also run CB, and it's a great hard hitter. It does kinda struggle in a Roserade+Shaymin prominence meta, although it's still really good.
Venomoth is annoying as fuck, because it can incapacitate something with Sleep Powder while also Quiver Dancing, gaining power and Speed; and it can pass those boosts to strong special attackers to make them complete ownage, and allow them to become hard to stop. Its use is limited to full on special offense teams though, and it's pretty one dimensional, but nonetheless a bastard Pokemon.
Just my two cents.
Top A:
Mid A:
Low A:
Just my two cents.
I c wot u did there m8 : )
Nah but on a more serious note, I do like these A-Rank placings...However I feel that Cofagrigus could be mid-A rather than High..It's an incredible sweeper with Nasty Plot and TR, but it crumbles to Taunt, whether it's the offensive or defensive variant (you also should mention that Cofag has an effective defensive set). The OTR Cofag is also naturally frailer both due to the custom spread of the IVs as well as the fact that it no longer has significant investment in bulk, on top of the fact it NEEDS a Nasty Plot in before it can go to work, while opposing sweepers can take a huge chunk out of it. The defensive one at least carries Pain Split, but needless to say special wallbreakers like Shaymin, Rotom, etc. WILL be racking up damage on it.
On Azelf, it may be overlooked but I think a surprise Scarf set is also worth mentioning, I've taken on a lot of teams with Scarf Azelf and just wondered why it isn't listed as a standard set. One-on-one it beats out Heracross and Mienshao with Psyshock while outspeeding BOTH with a scarf of its own. It's a minor nitpick but just to me it's kinda important.
Lastly I think Venomoth deserves mid-A rank. For one, it's the only other sweeper in the tier (other than Specs Yanmega, who is actually more of a wallbreaker) who can run a mono-attacking set, use Sleep Powder, and boost its stats to insane levels all-in one WHILE having access to a ridiculous ability such as Wonder Skin if you want to obtain boosts, or Tinted Lens if you want to focus on sweeping with one-move coverage. Its use of a Baton Pass set is also very deadly but NOT limited to specially offensive teams. You really need only 1-2 recipients to choose from, so there's no reason to say it's held back by one-dimensional team support. While Venomoth is kinda one-dimensional, it can be one of the scariest sweepers in the metagame just by itself. I think it deserves a lil more credit.
Those are just my nitpicks though, feel free to combat/deny/object/etc. them, that's the whole spirit of a discussion such as this
Most of that list is spot on, but there are a few things I would like to say about it. I think Top-A is over-selling Sharpedo a little. Poor bulk along means it will get destroyed by even the weakest priority moves. Also, the moves it uses don't have the sheer power that other offensive mons do. Base 80 isn't bad, but it's a far cry from other moves like megahorn, close combat and Hi Jump Kick. Also, it requres a lot of support to work, especially since it's a designated late game sweeper. This means entry hazards are a must and other mons have to weaken the oppsing team for it to do it's job. Weavile is also a little to high. It suffers from the same thing Sharpedo does, fraility and low BP moves. There also aren't to many mons for it to set up on, the only one it can reliably do so on is Roserade since most people will switch it out. It still has a good role in being the best pursuit trapper in UU, and has good priority, but it requires set up for its moves to do significant damage. Finally is Darmanitan. I believe it should be a little higher since it's pretty much the best answer to defensive ghost types in the tier. That may seem like a strange statement, but since most of them use WoW on their first turn they're in, it's a free switch in for Darm. It then destroys any mon that isn't a bulky water type or Rhyperior.
For Sharpedo, I'm kinda inclined to digress here, you're missing the fact Sharpedo can still pull off a perfectly viable Special set, which features Hydro Pump and even Ice Beam, both of which come at a higher BP as well as a general surprise factor to the opponent, since the special Sharpedo set can bruise up most of the physical one's checks with incredible ease. The special set may be rare compared to the physical one (for reasons I can't fully grasp...) but I wouldn't sell it short due to these flaws. And priority isn't as relevant when the main priority attacks you'll ever see in UU are Sucker Punch, the occasional Extremespeed from Arcanine, Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Fake Out from Ambipom and some Mienshao (both of the latter which can be stopped by Protect). I mean some peeps can run CB Crobat with Quick Attack to dispatch Sharpedo, but that in itself is rare enough though Sharpedo's bulk is atrocious.
And believe it or not, you'd be surprised at what Weavile can force switches on. One good example I'd like to bring to mind is a choice-locked Chandelure stuck in Shadow Ball, which after a poke dies to it, Weavile can come in for free just about, basically. Weavile's special bulk is somewhat usable for surviving a resisted special hit and getting up an SD. Once that happens you're capable of being able to kill off a good majority of the tier as well as be unable to be revenge killed without priority or a scarf. It's pretty situational, but needless to say I have gotten Weavile to force switches and setup from there. It's a bit hard but it's not impossible.
Actually, I have sweeped a team clean with SD Weavile just because the opponent led with a Focus Sash Froslass (A popular and usually fantastic dedicated lead), so they started stacking spikes while I set up to +4 for free (Froslass cannot touch Weavile). Ice Shard for Scarfed pokemon, and then coverage of Low Kick and Night Slash can easily pull off late game sweeps with the switches it forces. Take Weavile as a high risk, high reward pokemon.
Anyone in agreement that the S-ranked list should be condensed a bit? I feel like the S-ranked should only be by the top of the top. Moving some of the Pokemons to A wouldn't be THAT big a deal, in my opinion, because A-ranked is still really good. This is the biggest S-ranked list I've seen so far.
Yeah, there were some posts about bringing some stuff back down to the A-Ranks and such with no subdivisions of S-Rank. I ain't gonna list my proposals for S-Rank though because