Hydreigon Discussion: Viability in BW2

[Lavos]

interestingly, mamoswine's life orb ice shard will never ohko hydreigon after rocks, and breloom's jolly lo mach punch only ohkos about 5% of the time without rocks up. just noting that hydreigon's bulk isn't to be underestimated - and not being pursuit weak gives it a pretty huge edge over latios given the current metagame trends.

 

[Vert]

What I mean more weak, means it takes more DAMAGE, not how many priority moves hit it for super-effective damage.

Some extra bulk lets it live LO Mach Punch wo/ Stealth Rock

 

[Halcyon.]

interestingly, mamoswine's life orb ice shard will never ohko hydreigon after rocks, and breloom's jolly lo mach punch only ohkos about 5% of the time without rocks up. just noting that hydreigon's bulk isn't to be underestimated - and not being pursuit weak gives it a pretty huge edge over latios given the current metagame trends.

Yeah, I don't think people are giving Hyrdeigon's lack of a Pursuit weakness enough credit. When playing with Choiced Latios, you have to be extremely careful so that you don't get trapped and killed by Tyranitar. Hydreigon doesn't have to worry about that at all. You can afford to spam Draco Metoer on the specs set since you don't have to worry about being trapped by Tyranitar (or Dugtrio for that matter, not that Latios has to worry about that either). That's a huge advantage that choiced Hydreigon has over Latios.

 

[Gary]

And the best part about Hydreigon, is that Tyranitar actually fears it himself. If Latios lock itself into Draco Meteor when T-Tar is still around, it's pretty much GG for Latios; however Hydreigon can OHKO with Superpower if T-Tar even dares to come in on its Draco Meteor. T-Tar even fears the Specs set, since Draco Meteor does a number to it, and Focus Blast always one shots it. It is true that many underestimate poor Hydreigon's bulk. Being able to tank an Ice Shard and Jolly Breloom's Mach Punch is a god send. Unfortunately, most Breloom are Adamant these days, but it's still amazing that Hydreigon could possibly live it and OHKO back with pretty much anything.

 

[silenced]

Just wondering, does hydreigon really need 252 speed EV's? I feel that possibly a few could be added back into attack, or even HP. 212 lets you outpace jolly mamoswine (Though I forget whether mamoswine is more likely to be jolly/adamant these days), and you could possibly go lower depending on what you really need to outspeed.

The only pokemon off the top of my head that modest hydreigon (the standard mixed LO atttacker) would really prefer to outspeed/tie with, in comparison to one that sacrificed some speed for bulk, are
-Other hydreigon
-Adamant Haxorus
-Adamant non-scarfed Cube (depends on the set and nature Cube is running, since you will be slower than jolly/rash/mild anyway)
-Adamant Landorous-T (depends on the variant though, as the standard one you outspeed easily anyway)
-Lucario that is not yet at +2 (But you're not likely to be facing lucario before its at +2 based on what I've read about lucario sweeps, let alone being at full health...)

So that's roughly three pokemon worth outspeeding. If I'm wrong about nature on mamo, possibly you get to put more speed EV's into attack or HP (I think you can go as low as 132 speed before you risk losing the speed tie against standard toxicroak).

Apologies if I overlooked something, I think I've covered the main threats to outspeed, though how significant the EV redistribution would be, I'm not sure.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

I think 192 EVs should be the minimum, which lets Hydreigon outrun Adamant Lucario. Alternatively, you could run 220 EVs to speed creep the 96 +Spd Tentacruels that have been popping up lately, as well as 188 Spd Landorus-I and Jolly Mamoswine.

 

[Specter Pro]

Just pointing out that the EVs in the OP are messed up, the Sets are calling for Max HP rather than Max SpAtk.

Recently I've been shifting EVs from Speed and even a bit from SpAtk and adding it to HP. I agree that Hydra should never run less than 192 Speed EVs, which is why I considered running only 216 SpAtk and putting 100 EVs in HP. So far I feel like it might be worth it since it still hits pretty damn hard and isn't outsped by many Pokemon that 252 beats.

Edit: Just realized how late I am to posting in this thread ._.

 

[Gary]

Thanks for pointing that out! I have no idea how I never noticed that before.

 

[Cascade]

possibly one of the most annoying pokemon ive faced in my brief experiences in the OU metagame,
he can literally sub in, use a devastating attack, sub out easily due to its small amount of weaknesses and awesome stats >.>

 

[Vert]

possibly one of the most annoying pokemon ive faced in my brief experiences in the OU metagame,
he can literally sub in, use a devastating attack, sub out easily due to its small amount of weaknesses and awesome stats >.>

The problem is theat his weaknesses are common. there are Terrakion, Scizor, Volcarona, Keldeo, and Breloom every where. Dragon-type weakness and ice doesn't help either. It's stats aren't bad but they fall just by a mark. 98 is below 100, the bench mark which is probably the most natoable. Hydreigon almost always has to run Rash or Hasty since its mostly running mixed set which lowers its ability to take attcks. If you lose SpD, you cant take HPumps and Lava Plumes as you would like and -Def is bad towards stuff like Bullet Punch. Yea, the Subs set is cool, but it's not really "devastating".

 

[RabidChipmunk]

The problem is theat his weaknesses are common. there are Terrakion, Scizor, Volcarona, Keldeo, and Breloom every where. Dragon-type weakness and ice doesn't help either. It's stats aren't bad but they fall just by a mark. 98 is below 100, the bench mark which is probably the most natoable. Hydreigon almost always has to run Rash or Hasty since its mostly running mixed set which lowers its ability to take attcks. If you lose SpD, you cant take HPumps and Lava Plumes as you would like and -Def is bad towards stuff like Bullet Punch. Yea, the Subs set is cool, but it's not really "devastating".

Sub Hydreigon doesn't need to run any physical attacks though. The only physical attacks Hydreigon should be running are Superpower, which is counter-productive on a sub set, and Earthquake, which has its merits but isn't worth the moveslot. Between Sub, Roost, Dragon Pulse and Focus Blast/Fire Blast, Hydreigon is perfectly fine running a Modest nature.

Not saying that Sub Hydreigon is very good (I don't like it, personally), but still, it has some merits.

 

[Mupa97]

Mixed Hydreigon is probably one of the greatest wall-breakers I've ever used. Unlike some other Dragons, you can easily spam Draco Meteors with very little draw backs (Physical Dragons lock themselves in with Outrage, while Latios gets walled by Tyranitar and trapped with Pursuit), and that usually OHKO's/2HKO's everything in the metagame. Combine it with Superpower to handle Heatran, blobs, Tyranitar, and Fire Blast for Jirachi, Amoonguss, etc. I don't think there's a single Pokemon in the game that can survive two hits from this guy, and if there are it's either something extremely obscure or something that could be easily KOed with Dark Pulse or Earthquake. I find that almost every time I send it in, I can get a KO or two with it and wrecks stall way better than stuff like Landorus or Kyurem-B imo.

It does have a bad weakness to Fighting, but you have 5 other Pokemon on your team that can (hopefully) soak up any hits aimed at Hydreigon. It's bulk isn't to be underestimated either. I find that it could survive a few Super Effective hits and very able to switch into walls/slower mons and start wrecking things.

 

[Kid Kudo]

Mixed Hydreigon :
This variant of Hydreigon is seriously the epitome of risk vs reward. With experience and correct predictions, Hydreigon is seriously a devastating to any team. One can never really prepare for a Hydreigon. The number of counters that exist are zero, thanks to its monsterous power, backed by high based power coverage moves. However, with any blessing comes a curse. Most, if not all, Mixed Hydreigons run Draco Meteor and Superpower. Earthquake and Fire Blast aren't the most damaging moves as they pale in comparsion to the amount of damage and coverage DM and Superpower can provide. They aren't less useful or anything. Just simply put you'll be clicking on DM or Superpower more often. DM and Superpower come with stat drops. This wouldn't be too huge if Hydreigon weren't "slow" and possessed a plethora of weaknesses to some stupidly common moves such as Close Combat, Outrage, U-Turn and so on. But because Hydreigon possesses all of these flaws, these stat drops are a huge deficit to a Hydreigon, causing the user to switch out and lose momentum.
TL;DR : Mixed Hydreigon requires consistent prediction and extremely well-thought out plans.

 

[TheArchangle]

Hydreigon is an amazing pokemon, nothing can safely switch into Hydreigon, everything in the metagame is hit extremely hard by this thing. With a little T-Wave support Hydreigon immediately becomes one of the most powerful and unstoppable pokemon in BW2 OU.

 

[ScarfGren]

Lately I've been using a Choice Scarf Hydreigon:

Modest
252 Sp.Att 252 Speed 4 HP
U Turn/Fire Blast/Dragon Pulse/Earth Power

I tend to use it as a lead, and it sems to catch many people off guard, I mean, how many people expect a Lead Hydreigon? Most of the time I end up just straight out attacking and hide U Turn for a brilliant momentum changer later on, for example, my opponent had Alakazam out and I had Bold Jellicent out, I switched into Shadow Ball, and U turned out as he switched into Snorlax knowing he would switch out fearing my non existant Dark Pulse. U turning 1st turn gives me momentum and lets me have an excellent Scarfed Mom with excellent coverage for later. This is easily my favorite Hydreigon set.

 

[Gogeta]

Lately I've been using a Choice Scarf Hydreigon:

Modest
252 Sp.Att 252 Speed 4 HP
U Turn/Fire Blast/Dragon Pulse/Earth Power

I tend to use it as a lead, and it sems to catch many people off guard, I mean, how many people expect a Lead Hydreigon? Most of the time I end up just straight out attacking and hide U Turn for a brilliant momentum changer later on, for example, my opponent had Alakazam out and I had Bold Jellicent out, I switched into Shadow Ball, and U turned out as he switched into Snorlax knowing he would switch out fearing my non existant Dark Pulse. U turning 1st turn gives me momentum and lets me have an excellent Scarfed Mom with excellent coverage for later. This is easily my favorite Hydreigon set.

Blergh. Scarf Hydreigon.

As a lead, surely the LO/Specs/any other set would be better? Scarf lacks the immediate pressure that Hydreigon's other sets possess. Those sets allow you to seize control of the match on turn 1 with little difficulty, seeing as Hydreigon is usually a good matchup against any lead in OU. Whereas the Scarf set will either force you to reveal your set early, or will have you lose control early due to being forced out. It just seems outclassed by Latios and a waste of Hydreigon's potential.

Anyway, I''ve not had a chance to test this yet. gotta go after this, but this is a little theorymon set:

Hydreigon @ White Herb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Mild Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Tailwind
- Superpower
- Fire Blast

Idk, I'm trying to write something about this, but I can't word it, so I'll just summarise.

-Negates Hydreigon's reliance on stat dropping moves
-Setting up Tailwind is easy
-Nothing in OU can stand up to 2 full power Draco Meteors, 2 full power superpowers, or 1 of each.
-Fire Blast is important but can be replaced if your team build would appreciate Surf, Dark Pulse, etc, more.
-Still priority weak, so add pokes that can eliminate fighting types and Scizor. Trappers in general are good teammates for this set.
-Latios LOVES having its checks destroyed by this set.

Gotta dash, I'll edit where necessary, but lemme know what you think.

 

[BKC]

I think you guys are forgetting to mention that Hydreigon is actually stronger than Latios because it can afford to run Modest.

Early BW2 I ran Scarf Hydre on a sub team and it was surprisingly good!

 

[Sam]

Hydreigon has better coverage moves (Fire Blast vs. HP Fire, Focus Blast vs. nothing) which in my mind make it stronger. I don't think to say that you can say it's stronger because it can afford to run modest because latios CAN run modest, but you almost never would because the speed tier is more important. In terms of just spamming dracos obviously latios is better but in terms of pure wall breaking hydreigon has the edge

 

[Oddish is the best]

Mixed Hydreigon :
This variant of Hydreigon is seriously the epitome of risk vs reward. With experience and correct predictions, Hydreigon is seriously a devastating to any team. One can never really prepare for a Hydreigon. The number of counters that exist are zero, thanks to its monsterous power, backed by high based power coverage moves. However, with any blessing comes a curse. Most, if not all, Mixed Hydreigons run Draco Meteor and Superpower. Earthquake and Fire Blast aren't the most damaging moves as they pale in comparsion to the amount of damage and coverage DM and Superpower can provide. They aren't less useful or anything. Just simply put you'll be clicking on DM or Superpower more often. DM and Superpower come with stat drops. This wouldn't be too huge if Hydreigon weren't "slow" and possessed a plethora of weaknesses to some stupidly common moves such as Close Combat, Outrage, U-Turn and so on. But because Hydreigon possesses all of these flaws, these stat drops are a huge deficit to a Hydreigon, causing the user to switch out and lose momentum.
TL;DR : Mixed Hydreigon requires consistent prediction and extremely well-thought out plans.

The common player won't want to think that much which I think is part of the reason for its low usage. I think Hydre is a great wall breaker and does well against stall from my experiences but its speed stat is the main reason why people don't use it. Maybe if Latios/Latias wern't in the tier he would be better off and get more usage :/

 

[mael]

I personally love Hydreigons Mixed Set. I prefer it over any other Mixeddragon, except for probably Dragon Gem Nite, which I use because it has priority. The Set I use is a simple Draco Meteor/Superpower/Fire Blast/Uturn set. Sometimes I use Earthquake > Superpower and sometimes I use Dark Pulse if I feel like I need a more reliant way to beat Celebi and Jellicent, and if I feel like I need a STAB. I use the set similar as I used ExpertbeltTTar in DP OU. Bring it in, fake a scarf. Bring it in the second time and then predict their switch in, fire off the right move. I like it because it is pretty good if used by someone who relies as much on prediction as I do. I think the reason why it is not used that much is that people are rather trying to play more safely, and therefore just go for something like Latios that can spam Draco Meteor. It really depends on your playing style if you like it or not, but it surely is viable.

I don't think that it is outclassed by Kyurem-Black as far as mixed-attacking goes, because it is faster and usually runs Superpower which eases handling Chansey, Sdef TTars and stuff. Both are dangerous tho.

I really never used Tail Wind on Hydreigon, and I doubt that I ever will. I see no point in boosting the speed of a Pokemon that relies on moves that drop their stats to break walls. Choice Specs and Scarf are usable, but I rather dislike them because Hydreigon is just to slow to do Hit'n'Run properly. As many people said, using Substitute makes it much easier to use and if you don't want to rely on prediction you'd probably want to use that set anyway.

The White Herb set that Gogeta posted seems interesting, I might try that one time with U Turn > Tail Wind.
Hydreigons biggest downfall is the Dark Subtyping. It really doesn't do anything good for it, I'd rather have a Monodragon than a STAB Dragon Pulse. And yea, being so slow isn't really benefical neither. I still like it, and I'd only use MixedNite > Hydreigon as far as Mixedattackers go.

 

[Grey Knight]

Hydreigon ? well i guess it can fit in some dragon spam team (scarf,specs) it never worked to me in any other way , i always find my self comparing it to latios , altrough hydreigon has extreme wall breaking cape abilities it losses against almost every offensive threat mostly because of its dark typing, it also needs some weather support other that rain for obvious reasons.

 

[Specter Pro]

Hydreigon ? well i guess it can fit in some dragon spam team (scarf,specs) it never worked me in any other way , i always find my self comparing to latios , altrough hydreigon has extreme wall breaking cape abilities it losses against almost every offensive threat mostly because of its dark typing, it also needs some weather support other that rain for obvious reasons.

Just one thing for now: what do you mean it needs Weather support? Hydreigon actually doesn't require much support and Weather doesn't hamper it much so you wouldn't need some of your own. Fire Blast still deals heavy damage to most Steel-types in the Rain if that's what you're getting at, and it can run EQ to deal with Jirachi under any conditions.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Hydreigon is awesome in that it can 2HKO everything. Nothing is a safe switch-in to the mixed set. I feel that Hydreigon is overlooked because of Latios, who has notably higher Speed and also a more powerful Draco Meteor. But what sets Hydreigon apart from Latios the most, in my opinion, is its access to Superpower, Fire Blast, and U-turn, as well as the ability to present an incredibly potent mixed threat that checks a boatload of things. That said, Hydreigon's base 98 Speed leaves much to be desired, as it is revenged (or forced out) by too many things that outspeed it. It can work with Tailwind or other forms of team support such as Dual Screens, but due to its disappointing Speed, it's often either revenged by something faster or by something that can take advantage of the move it's locked into, in the case of Scarf being its held item as a "solution" to its Speed issue. A weakness to the priority moves Mach Punch and Ice Shard also bring it down a notch. It's becoming a less used mon in OU because people have had time to realize it can really only get one kill (without support/Tailwind) before it's revenged or forced out, resulting in either a dead Hydreigon or a loss of momentum. I definitely acknowledge what Hydreigon is capable of as an attacker and it has the potential to be great, but I do not find it very viable for the most part. I find Latios and even offensive Latias to be better choices for an OU team.

I would just like to add, if Hydreigon WERE to drop to UU eventually, Scarf Flygon, Scarf Heracross, and Mienshao would have a field day with it. They are already very good UU mons in their own right and having Hydreigon in UU would only bolster their usefulness even more. It can definitely do damage if it manages to get a Tailwind up while the opponent switches to try and save their active Pokemon, but it would by no means overwhelm UU, and many UU teams won't even have to adjust to be able to deal with it.

 

[Gary]

Hydreigon is awesome in that it can 2HKO everything. Nothing is a safe switch-in to the mixed set. I feel that Hydreigon is overlooked because of Latios, who has notably higher Speed and also a more powerful Draco Meteor. But what sets Hydreigon apart from Latios the most, in my opinion, is its access to Superpower, Fire Blast, and U-turn, as well as the ability to present an incredibly potent mixed threat that checks a boatload of things. That said, Hydreigon's base 98 Speed leaves much to be desired, as it is revenged (or forced out) by too many things that outspeed it. It can work with Tailwind or other forms of team support such as Dual Screens, but due to its disappointing Speed, it's either revenged by something faster or by something that can take advantage of the move it's locked into, in the case of Scarf being its held item as a "solution" to its Speed issue. A weakness to the priority moves Mach Punch and Ice Shard also bring it down a notch. It's becoming a less used mon in OU because people have had time to realize it can really only get one kill (without support/Tailwind) before it's revenged or forced out, resulting in either a dead Hydreigon or a loss of momentum. I definitely acknowledge what Hydreigon is capable of as an attacker and it has the potential to be great, but I do not find it very viable for the most part. I find Latios and even offensive Latias to be better choices for an OU team.

I would just like to add, if Hydreigon WERE to drop to UU eventually, Scarf Flygon, Scarf Heracross, and Mienshao will have a field day with it. They are already very good UU mons in their right and having Hydreigon in UU would only bolster their usefulness even more. It can definitely do damage if it manages to get a Tailwind up while the opponent switches to try and save their active Pokemon, but it would by no means overwhelm UU.

It would be amazing in UU though. It's speed tier is much more appreciated in UU then OU, and it would be one of the faster Pokemon in the tier TBH. It's bulky, powerful, and it could run pretty much any set with a ton of success in UU. It could potentially even become a better CS Dragon-type then Flygon, because it has a higher Attack stat and it's coverage is absolutely amazing. It would make Mienshao, Flygon, and Heracross more useful, but at the same time it also weaken the viability of other Pokemon, Psychic-types in particular. I could see that thing being overwhelming in UU to be quite honest, but who knows. It's sad to think that only 2 more base speed points would make Hydreigon a much better Pokemon in OU. Just 2!

 

[Goddess Briyella]

It would be amazing in UU though. It's speed tier is much more appreciated in UU then OU, and it would be one of the faster Pokemon in the tier TBH. It's bulky, powerful, and it could run pretty much any set with a ton of success in UU. It could potentially even become a better CS Dragon-type then Flygon, because it has a higher Attack stat and it's coverage is absolutely amazing. It would make Mienshao, Flygon, and Heracross more useful, but at the same time it also weaken the viability of other Pokemon, Psychic-types in particular. I could see that thing being overwhelming in UU to be quite honest, but who knows. It's sad to think that only 2 more base speed points would make Hydreigon a much better Pokemon in OU. Just 2!

I am obligated to disagree here. Jolly Scarf Flygon alone will outspeed Hydreigon even if it's Scarfed, OHKOing it easily with Outrage or dealing a solid super effective chunk of damage with U-turn if it were to stay in. This fact by itself would be enough to make people not want to run Hydreigon at all, and Hydreigon's inclusion in the UU metagame would definitely ensure that Jolly Scarf Flygon will be seen on almost every good team.

The case is the same with Mienshao; Hi Jump Kick is a clean OHKO without question and U-turn also nails it for super effective damage. Heracross is almost ALWAYS Scarfed and can OHKO Hydreigon easily with either one of its STAB moves. Even Cobalion could check Hydreigon in UU with its impressive 108 base Speed and Fighting STAB. UU VoltTurn would destroy it. BL isn't even necessary despite its awesome ability to 2HKO everything, because UU's top threats would have absolutely no problem with it, and they wouldn't have to change their sets at all to adapt to it.

I also apologize if my speculation about how Hydreigon wouldn't be able to do well in UU in my previous post sparked an unwelcome shift in discussion. I was just making a point that it wouldn't be made any more useful even if a continued decline in usage landed it a spot in UU.