Other Stall

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Let's just end this by saying dedicated HO players will always look at Stall in an unflattering way and the same goes to Stall players and how they percieve HO. It's only fitting for the worst of enemies to hate each other with such raging contempt.

This thread is about Stall in Gen 6, perks, nerfs and tactics that will make it competitive in the metagame. No feels allowed.
 
Every single upside is completely overblown and you're undermining every downside. Weather was not a huge factor in stall's downfall (in fact it helped just as much as it hurt), there are very few defensively good Fairy types, the sleep counter also means that stall teams can't get a glorified OHKO on an opponents Pokemon, Hidden Power wasn't even nerfed that hard, Sticky Web and Parting Shot both have low and shit distribution, and the spin blockers are fine, but you're vastly overestimating entry hazards. The Steel nerf is huge and lets multiple walls get taken down with ease and Mega Evos are stall's worst nightmare. Oh and Crobat can bypass sub now, just sayin'.

Yes, stall got a buff and we'll be seeing more of it. No, this is not gonna be Gen 3 again, offensive teams are still completely viable.
 
Mega Garchomp absolutely deserves a mention as a stallbreaker imo. It has a sky high attack and swords dance which can be setup on many pokemon that stall usually carries by either forcing them out or like just setting up in the face of something like aegislash. Just having Megachomp on your side puts the stall player under a disadvantage as once it finds an oppurtunity to set up it can rip though most walls especially under sand. Its immune to twave, sand damage and resistant to sr. It does get neutered by burns though, and is also susceptible to spikes and poison, yet I believe it is gonna be the premiere stall breaker this gen.

Also agree that mega venusaur can be a viable stall mon as it can absorb toxic spikes in addition to having recovery in synthesis.
 
Stall teams take a considerable amount of time and effort to build and test with, how on earth could that be "shameful." Also considering that stall was the dominant and main play style in GSC, arguably the first competitive generation, GeneralMLD's argument falls flat completely. But lets not talk about this any more, it is toxic to the thread.

Jaroda said:
Stall teams generally have such cohesion so if the meta proves wide and inclusive than stall will maintain such viability.
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A bit of a nitpick on this, stall teams IMO generally benefit from the opposite. The smaller and tighter a metagame is, the better off they are as it is much easier to counter and check the main threats. I can even point to gen 5 as an example, stall was arguably more viable in the Excadrill meta than later in BW2, as because Excadrill centered the meta around it, it was much easier to deal with the limit amount of used Pokemon in OU.

I honestly don't know what this meta will end up looking like. Although I hypothesize that after a few months a few dominant Pokemon / playstyles will stick out and center the meta around them again before they are banned, which IMO would be great for stall. Before that tough in the hectic haze of early gen 6, who knows what we could see.
 
Runic said:
Every single upside is completely overblown and you're undermining every downside. Weather was not a huge factor in stall's downfall (in fact it helped just as much as it hurt), there are very few defensively good Fairy types, the sleep counter also means that stall teams can't get a glorified OHKO on an opponents Pokemon, Hidden Power wasn't even nerfed that hard, Sticky Web and Parting Shot both have low and shit distribution, and the spin blockers are fine, but you're vastly overestimating entry hazards. The Steel nerf is huge and lets multiple walls get taken down with ease and Mega Evos are stall's worst nightmare. Oh and Crobat can bypass sub now, just sayin'.

Yes, stall got a buff and we'll be seeing more of it. No, this is not gonna be Gen 3 again, offensive teams are still completely viable.
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I already stated that this is based on my opinion, and it's generally theorymon. Offense teams might be the more dominant style, no one knows yet. I never stated this was going to be gen 3, and I never said offense wouldn't be viable.
 
Astral Spirit
I think he ment Flygon instead of Rhyperior.

GeneralMLD
If you've been strugling aginst stall in a meta that favors offense, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Gen V was the first gen where I was involved in competative batteling, and as much as I like playing with offensive teams, I am looking forward to a more balanced meta this gen. Offense vs Offense can become kinda dull after a while, and some of the more educational games I played were against stall teams.
 
The amount of new Prankster users could be interesting both on and against stall teams. We have two Prankster dual-screeners to my knowledge: Male Meowstic and Klefki, which could be immensely helpful for stall teams. Klefki is especially notable due to it's typing and access to prankster spikes as well!
Mega Banette on the other hand could be very interesting against stall with access to taunt.
I know Klefki and Meowstic may have crappy stats, but depending on their tiers they could be very viable in stall. I may be thinking too much about just one ability, but with so many new Pokemon receiving it, I definitely think it will be a common one this gen and will affect stall for sure.
 
Fairy's have placed a serious obstacle on one of the best HO templates around, DragSpam teams. It is unlikely that you can use the same concept without modifications and expect to succeed in Gen 6. Then you have Aegishield, MegAggron, Togekiss, Goodra, Poison/Dragon thingy, and some pokemon that I'm sure I'm forgetting about, then you also got pranksters such Klefki, Whimscott, Banette among others. Let's not forget MegAggron has filter and pure steel as an ability, meaning at best that you can hope for is hitting it for x1.5 damage. Then we have new monstrosities such as Eviolite Doublade. That thing was already bulky without the item. Critics, the bane of stall, are now doing x1.5. Last but not least, Ghost buffs are only going to make spinning harder because Starmie gets hit really hard by Aegislash's Shadow Sneak, and Forrettress is a sitting duck.

Toss in other minor things such as nerfs to most special attacks and Hidden power, new protect moves, parting shot and Sticky Web.

However, I suspect DragSpam teams will simply employ trappers to get rid of Fairy's and key elements of defensive cores while using new Dual type Dragons that can handle Fairys very well. Weather got nerfed so Weather Stall teams, arguably the most successful of stall types in Gen 5 are going to be insane to pull off and Mega Evolutions, although limited to one pokemon per team and the element of surprise many carry, will surely make Stall teams work hard.
 
Princess Bubblegum said:
Stall teams take a considerable amount of time and effort to build and test with, how on earth could that be "shameful." Also considering that stall was the dominant and main play style in GSC, arguably the first competitive generation, GeneralMLD's argument falls flat completely. But lets not talk about this any more, it is toxic to the thread.



A bit of a nitpick on this, stall teams IMO generally benefit from the opposite. The smaller and tighter a metagame is, the better off they are as it is much easier to counter and check the main threats. I can even point to gen 5 as an example, stall was arguably more viable in the Excadrill meta than later in BW2, as because Excadrill centered the meta around it, it was much easier to deal with the limit amount of used Pokemon in OU.

I honestly don't know what this meta will end up looking like. Although I hypothesize that after a few months a few dominant Pokemon / playstyles will stick out and center the meta around them again before they are banned, which IMO would be great for stall. Before that tough in the hectic haze of early gen 6, who knows what we could see.
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Really? I always viewed it the opposite. Offense teams are reliant on knowing what the common pokemon to outspeed and what coverage moves they need. These factors make or break a sweeper's viability. Stall however utilizes a few things that are almost universally beneficial overall (Substitute, entry hazards, Taunt, status, Protect, etc). If the metagame is wide and unpredictable a stall team can be murder to prepare for. I suppose it can go both ways. That's my take anyway
 
A lot of ups and downs for stall. Physically oriented Mega Evos are completely neutered by Will-o-Wisp, by extention making Sableye and Mega Bannette very useful. There aren't any walls or tanks that can reliably stop Mega Charizard, however, as it has great resistances, STABs and Atk power.

One thing OP didn't mention is the nerf to critical hits, making defense boosts a bit more reliable and the unlucky OHKOs a bit less common.
 
lol GeneralMLD you guys are falling for a pretty obvious troll.

Anyways, I'm excited to see defensive play-styles rebound in this generation. From what I've seen so far, Faries are going to be great to help stop both Fighting-types and those damn Dragons.

I don't know, from what I've seen so far, I'm feeling that this generation will have a very Gen 3 type feel, with weaker attacks and less spam of powerful choice moves (CC lets the best offensive type in the game, Ghost, in for free; Dragons have to deal with immunities, Water has to deal with the rain nerf), as well as more of an emphasis on type-matchups.

BW was a bit of an anomaly in how offensive it was, fingers crossed XY returns it back to normal
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Air Ballon Heatran can easily deal with both Mega Charizards. Earth Power takes care of X, Roar and SR deal with Y.
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That's a so-so against X. X can Dragon Claw on the switch and then EQ it for a kill. BUT, this assumes the Zard knows Heatran is coming out, and if he predicts that, you can switch someone else in to beat it. Typical Stall mental games apply here.
 
I'm a pretty bad player, who picked up mons in Latimence, and though I quit mons before BW2, I've never had more fun then I did when playing with stall late gen 4, and post Exca Ban BW. For me The long methodical gameplay, and immense amount of thought that has to go into stall teams, is more enjoyable than anything else, and I sincerely hope it will be really viable coming into a brand new generation. Thinking about stall in a new gen is basically the only reason I logged on again, but as of now I'm a bit concerned with the way things are looking.

While I think some of the nerfs are very beneficially for stall, Mega Gengar is basically crushing my dreams. I simply don't see stall being able to dedicate a whole slot to dealing with him. You would need a scarf-user that can out-speed it and pursuit trap it after it's inevitably finished off at least one of your mons. I know he can be dealt with by means of say IB Bliss (who still falls to D-bond, taunt, and perish song) but he basically can't be countered at least to my knowledge with anything stall would use to help with other threats. To be able to counter M-geng you need to be able to trap him, and either out-speed or be able to take a massive hit. With his new found base 140 speed, the latter is out of the question without a scarf. If the poke you bring in on him lacks pursuit he can simply switch out and come back in later. Short of running Shed Shell on nearly every mon, I don't see how stall Bypasses him smoothly without resorting to scarfers with pursuit or maybe a dedicated chople or assault vest Tar.

Additionally the nerf to steel Types outweighs pretty much any buff stall received this gen IMO. Without the ability to resist dark and ghost, Alakazam, Gengar, Reuniclus, and other prominent specially based mons become much much scarier. A great remedy to these mons would be if Meloetta received a 1-turn heal this gen, but at best that's pointless speculation. Additionally pokes like Tyranitar and Scizor become even more troublesome with Crunch and Pursuit hitting for Neutral or SE damage against things that previously would have resisted it.

Lastly but not necessarily least, there are other troublesome megas to consider. Namely Lucario, Blaziken, and Charizard-X. While Charizard-X is a bit easier to deal with Regular or Mega Blaziken poses a pretty large threat with it's wide variety of options and access to moves like SD, fortunately hidden power nerfs probably help in dealing with Mixed sets. Lucario-X having adaptability and a base 150 atk in conjunction with base 145 spatk just seems absurdly hard to deal with. At best it's a 3 physical attacks set running either Crunch or Ice Punch, but even then guessing it's coverage move incorrectly could screw you for the game. Mixed or special sets are probably going to be much rarer, but still need to be considered. Mistaking one of the two for a fully physical set could be fatal for your team as well.

All in all I really want stall to rise to a position of power, but feel that it has a lot going against it right now. As of now I think some sort of pursuiting scarfer is basically required (or chople tar maybe) but one thing it has going for it is assault vest. I'm very interested in how that item will change things, and if it'll be picked up over the sustainability of lefties, or the usefulness of shed shells.
 
I love the people who don't understand what benefits stall and what benefits offense. For example, prankster dual screens is a huge help to offense, as is klefki in general with its beautiful prankster spikes (lets pray for taunt). Also, Parting shot is huge for offense more than stall, if it gets optimal distribution. For defense, a, well timed parting shot can force a pokemon out, for them to switch in later. However, for offense, if you parting shot something like a starmie, all of a sudden your volcarona can set up, or parting shot a hippowdon and aegislash can set up. Now you can poke holes in both of those examples (I'm not sure who wins between aegislash and -1 atk hippo, and starmie isn't exactly a stall mon). However, the point is that parting shot is basically like a mini- dual screens, with the benefit of momentum added instead of lost and let me repeat, NO STALL USES DUAL SCREENS. Now I am not saying that stall is unviable, just that a lot of benefits for offense are being called benefits for stall.
 
Tesung said:
I love the people who don't understand what benefits stall and what benefits offense. For example, prankster dual screens is a huge help to offense, as is klefki in general with its beautiful prankster spikes (lets pray for taunt). Also, Parting shot is huge for offense more than stall, if it gets optimal distribution. For defense, a, well timed parting shot can force a pokemon out, for them to switch in later. However, for offense, if you parting shot something like a starmie, all of a sudden your volcarona can set up, or parting shot a hippowdon and aegislash can set up. Now you can poke holes in both of those examples (I'm not sure who wins between aegislash and -1 atk hippo, and starmie isn't exactly a stall mon). However, the point is that parting shot is basically like a mini- dual screens, with the benefit of momentum added instead of lost and let me repeat, NO STALL USES DUAL SCREENS. Now I am not saying that stall is unviable, just that a lot of benefits for offense are being called benefits for stall.
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I never said Prankster dual screens wouldn't help offense, and entry-hazard stacking is one of the main ways stall-teams can get damage, making Prankster spikes a huge help. Screens can make stall teams even more bulky, and can very much help in the purposes of stalling, I know this from experience.
And Klefki doesn't get Taunt, but I love the people who don't do their research...
 
GeneralMLD said:
The underline is exactly why it is shameful. You go into a match expecting a good honest fight and suddenly one person is having fun and the opponent is forced to rage quit, or frustratingly continue the match. A good match has both opponents having that feeling of victory being just within their grasp, using tactics to win through. Stall uses cheap tricks. Sorry, call me old fashioned, but stall teams in any competitive format, just shows the true colors of the people that use them.
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Disliking Stall is far from "old fashioned" since stall was at its best before either DS gen.
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Stall benefits and offense benefits are not mutually exclusive. Stealth Rock for example benefits both playstyles, so I don't see why the same can't be said about things like Prankster Spikes and Parting Shot.
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Hear hear! Saying the two are mutually exclusive is false in general, though, and you only have to look at pokemon choice for that (Stall uses Tyranitar sometimes... so does offense. Pt/HGSS meta used Rotom A for both sides.)

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot: You say hating stall is what we should be doing? You had better NEVER TOUCH the Gen2 metagame, because to this day 200 turns is considered average.
 
Mattman324 and Rayquaza First of all, I am not saying that prankster spikes or parting shot doesn't benefit stall, just that it benefits offense more, just like your example, stealth rocks, as well rocks are used by both, it hurts stall more, as stall is forced to switch more. Also, please explain to me dual screens stall, as I would love to hear about it.
 
What's there to explain about dual screen stall? You use a dual screener on a stall team...
Stall teams are bulky, that's pretty much the #1 rule for them, and dual screens help increase this bulk even further. It allows a team extra opportunities to set up Toxic, Wish, Substitute etc., which can always be extremely valuable.
On a balanced team with Screens, I don't think anyone's mindset is "Oh these won't help *insert stall-y Pokemon here* since it's bulky enough already." All Pokemon and playstyles can benefit from them, just like Stealth Rocks or Spikes.
 
It isn't a huge deal, but one thing I didn't see explicitly mentioned is the move power nerf.

95 to 90 isn't particularly relevant for the Surf class suite but when you add up all the multipliers involved in the game (STAB, SE, Specs/Band, etc), the drop in power of 120 moves down to 110 can actually make a difference. It's a small boon to stall that may go otherwise unnoticed.

As for new pokemon that could benefit stall, I think MegaVenusaur is a great choice. Poison has a newfound utility this gen and I don't see the other hyper offensive MEvos finding a place on stall teams, lessening the competition for Saur to use its mega stone. Dragalge or Goodra also get a nod for being SpD dragons (perfect stats for the moves they resist), and Goodra's new ability has the added benefit of lowering speed from contact moves.

Lots of options here.
 
Tesung said:
Mattman324 and Rayquaza First of all, I am not saying that prankster spikes or parting shot doesn't benefit stall, just that it benefits offense more, just like your example, stealth rocks, as well rocks are used by both, it hurts stall more, as stall is forced to switch more. Also, please explain to me dual screens stall, as I would love to hear about it.
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Dual screens stall is pretty hard to pull off - by picking Light Clay over Leftovers (or other Gen VI items), you miss out on a lot of decent options for items or consistent recovery. Typically, dual screeners need to have Regenerate or something that adds viability to switching out repeatedly - Pokemon like Amoonguss, Slowbro, Slowking, etc. Additionally, you probably need a Rapid Spinner. The most important part of dual screens stall is the fact that you can have multiple mixed defensive Pokemon - in fact, that's probably one of it's only upsides to normal stall.
 
Astral Spirit said:
What's there to explain about dual screen stall? You use a dual screener on a stall team...
Stall teams are bulky, that's pretty much the #1 rule for them, and dual screens help increase this bulk even further. It allows a team extra opportunities to set up Toxic, Wish, Substitute etc., which can always be extremely valuable.
On a balanced team with Screens, I don't think anyone's mindset is "Oh these won't help *insert stall-y Pokemon here* since it's bulky enough already." All Pokemon and playstyles can benefit from them, just like Stealth Rocks or Spikes.
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It makes no sense for stall to run dual screens, as their goal is to make battles last longer, and to keep their pokemon healthy throughout the match. The duration do dual screens is too short for stall. Also, I have literally never seen a stall team use screens. Maybe you could provide an example of a high level match or rmt in which dual screens were used with stall. Also, this conversation is somewhat pointless, as dual screens were such a tiny part of the BW2 metagame. And I never said that balanced never used it, only stall. While it is nice, in theory for stall to have screens up, it just generally isn't worth it



Edit: inanimate blob thank you, I agree that it is possible, but as you showed in our post, it is generally not worth it.
 
Tesung said:
It makes no sense for stall to run dual screens, as their goal is to make battles last longer, and to keep their pokemon healthy throughout the match. The duration do dual screens is too short for stall. Also, I have literally never seen a stall team use screens. Maybe you could provide an example of a high level match or rmt in which dual screens were used with stall. Also, this conversation is somewhat pointless, as dual screens were such a tiny part of the BW2 metagame. And I never said that balanced never used it, only stall. While it is nice, in theory for stall to have screens up, it just generally isn't worth it
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My experience is all I have, I used one way back when stall in RU was more prominent, and I definitely enjoyed it. It's not common, but that doesn't mean it's not viable.
Well, at least I know I'm going to make a Klefki dual-screens stall team in gen 6, if for nothing else, to prove a point that it can work.
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Stall benefits and offense benefits are not mutually exclusive. Stealth Rock for example benefits both playstyles, so I don't see why the same can't be said about things like Prankster Spikes and Parting Shot.
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Well said. Both offense and stall can benefit from Parting Shot, or Weather nerfs, etc.

In my book, the Special attack base power nerfs and the 1.5x crit nerf are the biggest buffs that stall received this gen, and unlike the other things listed in the OP these are UNDENIABLY buffs for stall - offense hates these changes. Fairy types will ruin Dragon-spam teams, but most Fairies look rather weak at this point, so aside from a few like Azumarill or Mawile they might not make as big an impact as everyone thinks.

Stall has never been my preferred playstyle, but I can't believe it would be called shameful (Liepard assist-spam is the only thing shameful). In fact, I really admire a well-crafted and well-played stall team. It's fun watching a match slowly move in the staller's direction until the final mon falls to residual damage. It will be interesting to see how stall fares in the new generation.
 
lol @calling stall shameful. Stall teams aren't exactly "plug and play"

Stall's buffs are one of the reasons I am so excited for gen 6. Defense has just been nurtured so well between this generation shift; I'm excited to build all-new favorite stall teams and win matches. Unfortunately, there's not too many pure stall mons that have been added. Outside of dragalge and goomy, both of which don't look to have any recovery moves, stall didn't get a lot of new toys this gen. Rather, the game has shifted itself more favorably towards the playstyle.

Still...mega lucario...It's just not something that you can wall.
 
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