Other Stall

[kd24]

just fyi generaldMLD, we're a competitive site. The point is to win, it doesn't matter if you suck too much to handle any stall team, you don't need to bring your "it's shameful" attitude here.

Anyway, this is NOT going to continue being a discussion on what is and isn't shameful in Pokemon, the OP was strong enough that this discussion should really talk about what to expect from stall, the mons to use, and what the biggest threats are other than whats listed in OP. Please bring it back to that guys. I'll be deleting any posts about shame and other irrelevance from here on out.

 

[Haruno]

It makes no sense for stall to run dual screens, as their goal is to make battles last longer, and to keep their pokemon healthy throughout the match. The duration do dual screens is too short for stall. Also, I have literally never seen a stall team use screens. Maybe you could provide an example of a high level match or rmt in which dual screens were used with stall. Also, this conversation is somewhat pointless, as dual screens were such a tiny part of the BW2 metagame. And I never said that balanced never used it, only stall. While it is nice, in theory for stall to have screens up, it just generally isn't worth it



Edit: inanimate blob thank you, I agree that it is possible, but as you showed in our post, it is generally not worth it.

8 turns is a long long time for any offensive team to wait. Screens are used to increase mons already titanic bulk to even higher levels. Then again this is only for ubers. No idea if it has relevance in ou but seeing as how superstar mainly plays ubers, I'd assume it includes ubers as well.

 

[Dread Arceus]

A few things I haven't seen noted yet (may have just missed them, apologize if so)...
First, MegaTyranitar. We're taking 100 SpD, 110 Def, and 100 HP with a 1.5x increase to SpD, and we're buffing it. This thing is going to be very, very sturdy.
Second, Florges. 148 SpD, although 72 HP and 64 Def are questionable. Still, Fairy typing is pretty good defensively, and may help stipulate is mediocre defenses.
Third, Sylveon. Its stats are all lower than Florges other than Def (65 vs. 64) and HP (95 vs. 72), but the latter of which does allow for bigger Wishes. It also takes physical attacks a bit better.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I've updated the OP with a small description regarding critical hits and new items (mainly Assalt Vest). Thanks to everyone who has put some input into the thread so far.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I have a hard time understanding exactly how Sticky Web helps stall teams. Even with Sticky Web down, your uninvested walls are probably going to be slower than most offensive mons, assuming Sticky Web only reduces Speed by one stage.

But yeah, you were pretty spot-on with the rest. One thing I'd like to add, though, is that it seems likely that we're going to bring back some potent stallbreakers in the beginning of the gen (Thundurus-I, Manaphy, Darkrai), which may present additional problems for slow, defensive teams. There are also a few unrevealed Pokemon that would potentially buff stall teams if they turn out to be part Fairy (Celebi, Shaymin, and Jirachi), but that's just speculation at this point.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I have a hard time understanding exactly how Sticky Web helps stall teams. Even with Sticky Web down, your uninvested walls are probably going to be slower than most offensive mons, assuming Sticky Web only reduces Speed by one stage.

But yeah, you were pretty spot-on with the rest. One thing I'd like to add, though, is that it seems likely that we're going to bring back some potent stallbreakers in the beginning of the gen (Thundurus-I, Manaphy, Darkrai), which may present additional problems for slow, defensive teams.

You could be right about Sticky Web, but it's just something to think about, since a lot of bulky Pokemon like Latias, Landorus-T, and Tentacruel are actually pretty fast, and it could potentially be the difference between Latias getting a Recover off, and losing to say, Keldeo. We'll have to wait and see how the metagame goes.

As for the previously banned Pokemon, I didn't really want to mention them mainly because generation 6 didn't really "create" these Pokemon, so people should always know how threatening thy are. This thread is dedicated to completely new things, but if other people feel it should be included I'm more than happy to write a section on it.

Thanks for your response

 

[Nysyr]

I would be happy to see rainstall die a painful death since it revolves around spamming 120 BP scalds.

As for other stall, they should be fine since any weather they used was to cancel other weather. Stall also got some new toys in Sticky Web and special attacker nerfs.

 

[C05ta]

Let's just end this by saying dedicated HO players will always look at Stall in an unflattering way and the same goes to Stall players and how they percieve HO. It's only fitting for the worst of enemies to hate each other with such raging contempt.

This thread is about Stall in Gen 6, perks, nerfs and tactics that will make it competitive in the metagame. No feels allowed.

The dumbest part about the argument is that they play so similarly.

OT: Stall is really cool this gen. You're limited to Forre as a spinner because tenta sucks without rain and lolanythingelse. Everything else is much more open because you don't have to have stuff like Celebi/Amoongbro/etc., to deal with boosted hydro pumps.

 

[Pikadooder]

I think it is important when discussing the new ghost evolutions potential as spinblockers to consider Greninja, who is reported to get Spikes, U-Turn, AND Rapid Spin. Aegislashes success as a spinblocker is going to depend a lot upon his ability to take Dark Pulses off of Greninja. With proper prediction, Greninja would Dark Pulse him on his way in, and then be able to outspeed him to hit him again. His special attack is lackluster, but two STAB Dark Pulses are going to hurt regardless thanks to the HUGE Steel Nerf this generation. He is also faster than Starmie, and has a type advantage against her as well.

 

[Dread Arceus]

I think it is important when discussing the new ghost evolutions potential as spinblockers to consider Greninja, who is reported to get Spikes, U-Turn, AND Rapid Spin. Aegislashes success as a spinblocker is going to depend a lot upon his ability to take Dark Pulses off of Greninja. With proper prediction, Greninja would Dark Pulse him on his way in, and then be able to outspeed him to hit him again. His special attack is lackluster, but two STAB Dark Pulses are going to hurt regardless thanks to the HUGE Steel Nerf this generation. He is also faster than Starmie, and has a type advantage against her as well.

Greninja doesn't get RS anymore. It was an error.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

It's already been confirmed that Greninja doesn't get Rapid Spin. Greninja is obviously very interesting as a Pokemon, but I wouldn't say it's suited to stall teams, mainly because it's generally seen as an offensive Spike Stacker. I just don't see much room for it on stall teams. Being able to Spin block is pretty cool, but turning it into a Ghost type often leads it being compared to Frolass, which is never used on Stall teams for obvious reasons.

 

[Nysyr]

The dumbest part about the argument is that they play so similarly.

OT: Stall is really cool this gen. You're limited to Forre as a spinner because tenta sucks without rain and lolanythingelse. Everything else is much more open because you don't have stuff like Celebi/Amoongbro/etc., to deal with boosted hydro pumps.

Eh, unless forry can OHKO MegaGengar I wouldn't really lean on using it alone. Hopefully a new spinner that can beat it is introduced. EQ forry might be mandatory with like a lot of attack investment to get around Aegislash and MegaGar.

 

[X5Dragon]

The dumbest part about the argument is that they play so similarly.

Aw hell naw man, did you just compare us to Stall? Frak that shit, stall players have no bushido. Also, for stall teams I recommend relying heavily on SR + Spin Blocker, since from the look of things, we didn't gain any new spinners and our current ones just got worse.

 

[Nubagator]

Let's talk about Mega Gengar specifically. How are you going to run stall against it? It will get off it's transformation against basically any stall mon(due to speed difference), and the damage output along with shadow tag and it's move pool allows it to pretty much take out any stall mon. You can attempt to wall it with stuff like IB Bliss, but it can still get around you with moves like; taunt, pain split, perish song, and destiny bond in worst case scenario. additionally it can just switch out of bliss or other mons that attempt to wall it and just come back in later. Pretty much the only way to catch it is with scarfed pursuit, but opting for that route you still have to give up at least one mon to it, before you can switch into it.
Chople or assault vest ttar might be a viable answer, but it still takes tons from FB 55.44 - 66.33% with assault vest (assuming it's a 1.5x) and 42.07 - 49.5% with chople. Assuming sand in both cases and theorizing that M-Gar is modest since it will still hit 379 speed with a modest nature. 0atk investment ttar only deals 51.34 - 62.06% with pursuit, so Geng will just 2HKO if it calls TTar's bluff, although that doesn't factor in residual sand damage. ON the other hand crunch is a OHKO dealing 103.44 - 121.83% damage off of 0 atk investment. It's just a mindgame 50/50. You wither get Geng or severley weaken him, but if you guess wrong he still has the potential to just come back in later and screw up the rest of your team.

Any thoughts? As long as Mega-Gengar exists, you'll probably have to dedicate at least one mon to it, and assume it will take at least one of your pokes for free every game.

 

[C05ta]

Eh, unless forry can OHKO MegaGengar I wouldn't really lean on using it alone. Hopefully a new spinner that can beat it is introduced. EQ forry might be mandatory with like a lot of attack investment to get around Aegislash and MegaGar.

MegaGengar is going to get banned. I'm just accepting that. I don't think it even deserves to be tested.

I'm currently using EQ forry for Aegi. It doesn't ko at +6 with secret sword/shadow sneak so you can feel free to spam weak eqs until it inevitably attacks and dies.

Aw hell naw man, did you just compare us to Stall? Frak that shit, stall players have no bushido. Also, for stall teams I recommend relying heavily on SR + Spin Blocker, since from the look of things, we didn't gain any new spinners and our current ones just got worse.

I play a ton of stall, probably more than I play HO. They're my two main playstyles because they play so similarly in terms of long-term strategy. You have to know what's expendable to put your opponent in a losing position. The how is the only thing that's different between the two playstyles.

 

[lokt]

I've been using hp fire aegislash for forretress. When you use a spinblocker that is used as spikes fodder, you know you have a problem.

 

[Haruno]

Let's talk about Mega Gengar specifically. How are you going to run stall against it? It will get off it's transformation against basically any stall mon(due to speed difference), and the damage output along with shadow tag and it's move pool allows it to pretty much take out any stall mon. You can attempt to wall it with stuff like IB Bliss, but it can still get around you with moves like; taunt, pain split, perish song, and destiny bond in worst case scenario. additionally it can just switch out of bliss or other mons that attempt to wall it and just come back in later. Pretty much the only way to catch it is with scarfed pursuit, but opting for that route you still have to give up at least one mon to it, before you can switch into it.
Chople or assault vest ttar might be a viable answer, but it still takes tons from FB 55.44 - 66.33% with assault vest (assuming it's a 1.5x) and 42.07 - 49.5% with chople. Assuming sand in both cases and theorizing that M-Gar is modest since it will still hit 379 speed with a modest nature. 0atk investment ttar only deals 51.34 - 62.06% with pursuit, so Geng will just 2HKO if it calls TTar's bluff, although that doesn't factor in residual sand damage. ON the other hand crunch is a OHKO dealing 103.44 - 121.83% damage off of 0 atk investment. It's just a mindgame 50/50. You wither get Geng or severley weaken him, but if you guess wrong he still has the potential to just come back in later and screw up the rest of your team.

Any thoughts? As long as Mega-Gengar exists, you'll probably have to dedicate at least one mon to it, and assume it will take at least one of your pokes for free every game.

Assault vest tytar could probably pursuit trap mega gengar while being able to live the focus blast. Though I can see tytar mostly used on balanced stall that is in need of a special wall which it'd excel at. Special Latios isn't even guaranteed to 3hko and specs modest spout from ogre fails to ohko, just to give you an idea of its titanic special bulk.

 

[Zarco]

As a big fan of UU Stall last gen, I like this. Aside from Megas, most of it bodes well for us. Stall rests on the ability of a team to maintain hazards and stop momentum. Often you win when your opponent has to switch around to try and land a significant blow, and rack up hazards damage and damage from even weak moves like Skarm's Brave Bird, a bulky water's Scald, etc.

The spin game will be tricky though, as I think Greninja will be good at killing spinblockers and setting hazards of its own to limit stall's mobility. If you go into your sword and take a Dark Pulse or Hydro Pump, you might be screwed... but if you don't and get spun, they get free reign. SpDef Aegislash ftw?

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

I've updated the OP with a small description regarding critical hits and new items (mainly Assalt Vest). Thanks to everyone who has put some input into the thread so far.

You forgot to mention how Substitute is bypassed by sound based moves now. Nothing is going to like taking a 140 BP LO/Specs Boomburst from Noivern after just dumping 25% of it's health.

On top of that it's confirmed that Infiltrator bypasses Substitute. Which means that Pokemon like Noivern and Chandleure can get past that.

I'm not a stall player, I dislike stall as it doesn't suit me, but I was wondering how this would affect stall teams.

Thoughts?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

The only time I ever used Substitute for stalling in gen 5 was for Tentacruel, and that was because of its shear healing ability under the rain, so I would hid under a sub and fire off Scalds at stuff. It was particularly helpful against Ferrothorn, where you just waited until a Power Whip miss and fired off Scalds to burn, it also blocked Leech Seed, making sure Ferrothorn could never muscle through Tentacruel and Tentacruel could spin all it wants on it.

Overall, its not that critical unless you are playing quick stall or something.

Interesting note though, this Substitute nerf still makes substitute 10 times better than in gen 1, where it didn't block status.

 

[TwoBit]

From what I can tell , the defensive aspects of stall depends largely on type matchups and healing off damage residual. Select mons like Toxicroak and Breloom rely heavily on sub, but more so as a buffer for focus and drain punch. Common sub users wouldn't want to be facing Chandelure or Noivern anyway.

Infiltrator will no doubt be useful against pokemon like Breloom but I doubt it'll have too big of an impact.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

The only time I ever used Substitute for stalling in gen 5 was for Tentacruel, and that was because of its shear healing ability under the rain, so I would hid under a sub and fire off Scalds at stuff. It was particularly helpful against Ferrothorn, where you just waited until a Power Whip miss and fired off Scalds to burn, it also blocked Leech Seed, making sure Ferrothorn could never muscle through Tentacruel and Tentacruel could spin all it wants on it.

Dunno. I've been stalled by plenty of sub using pokemon. The worst offenders were posion heal gliscor and breloom. Toxicroak was a pain at times as well.

Most stall teams I run into have at least one, usually sub users.

 

[56k]

Skarmory and Ferrothorn don't resist dark and ghost moves now, and Jirachi is just weak to them. Threat's such as CB Tyranitar and LO Gengar can use Crunch and Shadowball much more safely now.

Max attack+ CB Tyranitar crunch vs Max def skarmory: 37.72 - 44.31% which is a pretty decent chunk. 55.98 - 66.46% after a defense drop, which means it can't necessarily roost stall or even whirlwind. A reliable choice over Stone Edge.

Max SpAtk but Timid LO Gengar Shadow Ball vs max SpDef+ Ferrothorn: 30.96 - 36.93%. Followed by Focus Blast 62.78 - 74.71%. A full HP Ferrothorn could at least retaliate with a gyro ball before, but not now.



The spin blocking problem has always been LO Starmie, who can OHKO Gengar and Thunder/Thunderbolt Jellicent Switch ins. I don't think it has changed, as Trevenant will fall to predicted Ice Beams and Aegislash will fall to surf or hydro pump. The best solution is still ferrothorn who can guarantee rocks or spikes against starmies that lack recover, or just kill starmie with power whip which sacrifices the hazards. Some teams are happy with this though; they spin away the rocks and starmie dies, then dragonite or volcarona or charizard comes in, all unique threats that could boost, or substitute, or just plain fire off a superpower or fire blast.



Breloom is nasty for stall teams because even uninvested it usually outspeeds your stall pokemons. Celebi and Venusaur hard counter the bastard now, as it is immune to spore.



Tentacruel has less time to abuse rain dish now. His HP, Def, and SpDef spreads are largely customizable but it's safe to say he can't switch into uturns and close combat as easily. Vaporean has less time to abuse hydration rest.

 

[Karpi]

I'm wondering how much damage an Assault Vest Sassy Tyranitar takes from Starmie's Hydro Pump now.

EDIT: Apparently just barely over 50% minimum, damn.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I'm wondering how much damage an Assault Vest Sassy Tyranitar takes from Starmie's Hydro Pump now.

EDIT: Apparently just barely over 50% minimum, damn.

You must have forgotten to include the sandstorm boost.

Timid Life Orb Starmie 110 Base Power Water Special vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpDef Sassy Tyranitar in Sandstorm: 31.2% - 37.1%