Other Evasion

[nikovan]

I already did.

Crobat with taunt and u-turn to zapdos with lumberry and whirlwind. 2 hypothetical pokemon beat your 6 hypothetical pokemon. And we can do this for any combination of moves or pokemon. It doesnt have to be double team. You giving me a hypothetical puzzle and me solving it has nothing to do with any whether or not double team should be banned or not.

6 stages of evasion tops at 71.6% of evading.

edit - oh lol crobat gets infiltrator in gen vi. I can beat the whole team with one pokemon. then. Open with sub, wait till chain goes to keldeo. 100% accurate toxic that goes through subs.

This is ridiculous! If you cannot give a set of OU Pokemon that can deal with Double Team spamming, then that is a broken strategy! You're basically saying that every team has to run Crobat + Zapdos, two Stealth Rock weak pokemon to avoid being haxxed to death.

Please, what kind of flawed logic is that one?

Defog is not a counter to Double Team spam because if you Double Team first, and I switch into my Defoger, you already have two Double Teams up! That's insane, that gives you the ability to attack my Defoger with 50% chance of me failing on a 100% accurate move on the first turn and 30% on the second one. You're basically forcing everyone to run 100% accurate moves just to try to hit Double Team Pokemon! Besides, Defog, Roar and Whirlwind are blocked by Taunt! How much more unbalanced do you want the metagame to be?

Again, I cannot see how someone can find it fun to face an Evasion boosting team. It's just tedious and Double Team teams can find ways around their counters. But I have already decided that no matter what I write here is going to change the minds of those that approve of DT spam. I hope Smogon does not allow Evasion boosting moves to run rampant or I will not be playing this meta.

 

[Lazybeef]

It is so simple to just ban evasion. It is NOT simple to ban paralyis, crits, freezes, speed ties and damage variation if we want to stay as true as possible to the actual game. Evasion is uncompetitive. It is a luck based strategy that an idiot could use against an experienced player and still come out on top. It won't grant you a victory most of the time, but that is irrelevant. Just the fact that such strategies exist would be horrible for any metagame it is allowed in. There are A LOT of luck based elements is the metagame that we cannot remove easily.

"Well, just ban paralysis then! It is just as luck based!"

We can't do that. Should we ban thunderbolt? Discharge? Body slam? Obviously not. Evasion is different because it is easy to ban without harming a crapton of other strategies.

Keep evasion banned.

 

[Sound]

see my edit

crobat gets infiltrator in gen vi. I can beat the whole team with one pokemon then. Open with sub, wait till chain goes to keldeo. 100% accurate toxic that goes through subs. spam substitute till dead.

Infiltrator only lets damaging moves bypass Sub. Get your facts straight before calling me out on not knowing something.

I wasn't trying to make a good team, I was trying to show how dumb evasion can be. It either has a chance to auto-win versus teams unprepared, or auto-loses. Why let something like that in the meta? What's the benefit? It doesn't make the game funner, add strategic depth, or even make more pokemon viable.

 

[neato]

Its your own fault if you're caught unprepared. There are counters now, its your fault for not using it. And crobat/zapdos is just one that I thought of.

You asked for one example that can beat your team. So I gave you one example, and now you're going "but that doesnt count give me another". There are 514806 2 pokemon combinations. Do you seriously expect me to find every single counter for you. Here are a few more. Every pokemon with haze. Every pokemon with topsy turvy. Motherfucking gen vi farfetch'd. Don't ask me "heres a hypothetical team, it's unbeatable, beat it" and then when I do, turn it around and go "see this is evidence that unbeatable team is unbeatable.". No that wasn't what you asked.

And stop calling it an autowin. A baton pass evasion strategy loses their chain 70% of the time because the first double team does jack shit. you're just angry that if you're caught unprepared, no matter how good you are at battling you lose 30% of time. Well guess what. If i was unprepared for weather last gen I lost a lot more than 30% of the time.

 

[Xiom]

Infiltrator only lets damaging moves bypass Sub. Get your facts straight before calling me out on not knowing something.

I wasn't trying to make a good team, I was trying to show how dumb evasion can be. It either has a chance to auto-win versus teams unprepared, or auto-loses. Why let something like that in the meta? What's the benefit? It doesn't make the game funner, add strategic depth, or even make more pokemon viable.

Still Brave Bird OHKO Keldeo. Edit: Never Mind, it might miss.

Even if your team wasn't a great example, Baton Pass teams would benefit from Double Team making its members more viable. But that's the only real thing it would add to the meta. I suppose most people would even consider that a bad thing as BP isn't the most interesting team to face, especially if it has access to Double Team.

 

[Beast Mode]

Y'know what should be banned instead of evasion? Substitute. All the amazing hypothetical evasion teams being posted here rely on Sub. It's such a bullshit move and just like Double Team, everything learns it. It makes the game boring. At least when your opponent uses evasion, you always have a chance to hit it. With Substitute, almost all interesting status moves are blocked, pushing the game toward boring attack moves. Why is it that we don't ban Sub?

I am not sure if you are serious or not. Substitute is in no way a bullshit move, it does not create luck based situations, nor does it make anything broken. The reason we are talking about banning evasion is because double team decreases the competitiveness of the game. Sure substitute is a good move but in no way does it make the game boring or decrease the competitiveness of the game. While were at it we might as well ban close combat because it is powerful and most fighting types get it. If we just ban evasion, none of these other problems will emerge.

 

[LastFootnote]

I am not sure if you are serious or not. Substitute is in no way a bullshit move,

Opinion.

it does not create luck based situations

Fact.

nor does it make anything broken.

Opinion.

The reason we are talking about banning evasion is because double team decreases the competitiveness of the game.

Opinion. "Competitiveness" is a meaningless, malleable word. It can mean whatever you want it to. I think evasion would increase variety in the game, making the game more interesting. Believe it or not, it takes skill to reliably counter evasion. So in addition to adding luck, including evasion in the game would add skill. The two are not on opposite sides of an axis. They are two separate axes.

Sure substitute is a good move but in no way does it make the game boring

Opinion.

If we just ban evasion, none of these other problems will emerge.

I see no other problems here.

So overall you have one fact. And the claim that "creating luck-based situations" is bad is your opinion.

 

[PKMN1]

t is a luck based strategy that an idiot could use against an experienced player and still come out on top. .

While i do hate the Evasion moves, I do have to point out that this can happen anyway. Just watch as you tyranitar misses his Stone edge and then gets hit by a Critical, super effective attack that does not make any sense on the pokemon using it. No matter how skilled the player is, you CAN and WILL lose to bad players simply because of luck.

As for the double team thing. I believe that the evasion MOVES are unfair, as everyone can use them and makes the game entirely based around whether the opponent can actually hit you and you can make it be up about 70% chance for them to miss. No other strategy does this in ONE move. Paraflinch requires you to paralyze the opponent and then repeatedly use the same move over and over, Parafusion is stopped mostly by just switching the pokemon out to cure confusion, Parattractfusionwhatever is also stopped by the player who is on the receiving end returning their pokemon to their pokeball. Double Team is not, it can only be stopped by defeating the opponent of forcing them to switch or using a no miss move, this is not competitive because it means you are required to have a certain move on you at all times (of course, this also applies to stealth rock and i believe it should be banned but that is neither here nor there for this conversation). This SERIOUSLY hurts strategy when 1 of you pokemon is required to be one of a few small pokemon who are actually able to do anything viable (the 60 BP moves do not count as viable BTW) and even then it can fail depending on what pokemon is using Double team.

It would be one thing if only a few, small, select pokemon could learn it, but everyone can and this just makes it unfair. At least the evasion abilities are relegated to a few pokemon groups of pokemon and they cannot be increased further than what they are. at least the brightpowder makes you use the ever important item slot for only a small bonus, double team allows you to increase that easily.​

 

[Beast Mode]

Alright lets look at your post:

It's such a bullshit move

Opinion.

It makes the game boring.

Opinion.

With Substitute, almost all interesting status moves are blocked, pushing the game toward boring attack moves.

I am not really sure why attacking moves are boring and status moves are interesting but I am going to say that is an opinion.

So by your logic, your claims are just as flawed as mine. Obviously we are going to have opinions on this thread because we are trying to persuade others to believe our side. My point is that a metagame that values skill over luck is a metagame that I and most other people would enjoy

 

[UltiMario]

Opinion. "Competitiveness" is a meaningless, malleable word. It can mean whatever you want it to. I think evasion would increase variety in the game, making the game more interesting. Believe it or not, it takes skill to reliably counter evasion. So in addition to adding luck, including evasion in the game would add skill. The two are not on opposite sides of an axis. They are two separate axes.

Making your team less optimized and less functional vs non-evasion abusing teams in order to not get hax'd out by evasion teams isn't "skill"

 

[LastFootnote]

Alright lets look at your post:

Opinion.


Opinion.


I am not really sure why attacking moves are boring and status moves are interesting but I am going to say that is an opinion.

So by your logic, your claims are just as flawed as mine. Obviously we are going to have opinions on this thread because we are trying to persuade others to believe our side. My point is that a metagame that values skill over luck is a metagame that I and most other people would enjoy

Oh yes, I'm well aware that neither of us presented many facts. But again, "most other people" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Lazybeef]

While i do hate the Evasion moves, I do have to point out that this can happen anyway. Just watch as you tyranitar misses his Stone edge and then gets hit by a Critical, super effective attack that does not make any sense on the pokemon using it. No matter how skilled the player is, you CAN and WILL lose to bad players simply because of luck.

And I have to point out that I explained in my post why such reasoning is flawed.

 

[jas61292]

Beat the following team with no more then two 'mons.

Hide

Espeon with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Toxic
Gliscor with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
Ninjask with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
(M)Absol with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Sucker Punch
Smeargle (Moody and Focus Sash) with Minimize, Baton Pass, Spore, Quiver Dance
Keldeo with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Substitute, Toxic

All use their normal EVs and natures. Your 'mons have to work no matter what leads the battle. Gogogo.

Darn. I can't. Well, maybe a I can, but not easily. But the very fact that I can even contemplate doing should be enough to show that this is an awful strategy. Why? Because any competent OU team cannot be beaten by a team of 2 Pokemon. If you are even posing that as a question, then you are admitting it is a weak strategy.

Seriously, I don't know why people don't understand this: Double Team is a bad move that is an inefficient use of time. There are a million ways to beat it, and even when played well will fail the majority of the time. It is simply bad. There is nothing to discuss on that front because it is a simple fact.

As for it being uncompetitive, that is a subjective word people use to mean "things I don't like." There is nothing different between active evasion (Double Team) and any other type of active hax (Flinch Jirachi, for example). To the same extent, there is nothing different between passive evasion (Sand Veil) and any other type of passive hax (Flame Body). In principle, they are objectively the same thing. Now that is not to say they are of equal power, as I will certainly agree Snow Cloak is more powerful than Poison Point, despite both being forms of passive hax, just as Minimize is better than Headbutt. But just as any other mechanic, the individual mechanics should be judged independently, and when you actually do so, fairly, without any bias, Double Team is just straight up bad. It is not a debate. It is fact.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Beat the following team with no more then two 'mons.

Hide

Espeon with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Toxic
Gliscor with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
Ninjask with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
(M)Absol with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Sucker Punch
Smeargle (Moody and Focus Sash) with Minimize, Baton Pass, Spore, Quiver Dance
Keldeo with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Substitute, Toxic

All use their normal EVs and natures. Your 'mons have to work no matter what leads the battle. Gogogo.

I'm not really invested in the argument but for the sake of a challenge
Oblivious Mamoswine with Roar and Stealth Rock avoids the Taunt with Oblvious and can phaze everything and stack up damage. Tropius is immune to spore, resists Keldeo's STABs and has Whirlwind.
That's uh... kind of a lulzy setup though. :P

 

[Beast Mode]

Darn. I can't. Well, maybe a I can, but not easily. But the very fact that I can even contemplate doing should be enough to show that this is an awful strategy. Why? Because any competent OU team cannot be beaten by a team of 2 Pokemon. If you are even posing that as a question, then you are admitting it is a weak strategy.

Seriously, I don't know why people don't understand this: Double Team is a bad move that is an inefficient use of time. There are a million ways to beat it, and even when played well will fail the majority of the time. It is simply bad. There is nothing to discuss on that front because it is a simple fact.

As for it being uncompetitive, that is a subjective word people use to mean "things I don't like." There is nothing different between active evasion (Double Team) and any other type of active hax (Flinch Jirachi, for example). To the same extent, there is nothing different between passive evasion (Sand Veil) and any other type of passive hax (Flame Body). In principle, they are objectively the same thing. Now that is not to say they are of equal power, as I will certainly agree Snow Cloak is more powerful than Poison Point, despite both being forms of passive hax, just as Minimize is better than Headbutt. But just as any other mechanic, the individual mechanics should be judged independently, and when you actually do so, fairly, without any bias, Double Team is just straight up bad. It is not a debate. It is fact.

I agree that Double Team is bad and I also agree that most forms of hax can be considered "uncompetitive". Personally I don't like any form of hax because it is out of your control and can easily turn a win into a loss. Obviously we can't ban all forms of hax because that would mess up a lot of the game mechanics but that doesn't mean we can't try to minimize hax. Even though Double Team is a bad strategy, it still changes the game from skill to luck. You can say this about flinch hax but whole teams are not based around flinching and flinch hax is much easier to play around. If you miss your move on that first double team it puts you in a steep hole that is difficult to get out of. Also just because it is bad does not justify its unban. The lack of evasion clause would give garbage players a better chance to beat good players and it would also cause a multitude of rage quits.

 

[Xiom]

Scenario: Opponent switches in "Threat X" you switch to "Counter Y" capable of outspeeding and 2HKO your opponent whie "Threat X" uses Double Team.

Your opponent starts attacking: 84% chance to get knocked out before the Double team had any effect.

Your opponent keeps using Double Team until +6: 90% chance of getting knocked out before Threat X can use another move.

 

[Shiruba]

this thread is pathetic and a giant circle-jerk all around. do you guys really get so riled up over pokemon, a game you play for fun? go outside, have a drink of water, take a walk, whatever makes you happy. everyone is just repeating the same fucking thing and it got old about four pages ago.

-le opinion time-
yeah, yeah, evasion sucks, and you'll lose nine games out of ten 'cuz you suck. the game where you did win is ass for the other person, though - can't really avoid a focus blast miss, [how the hell do you ban something you can't avoid?], and that miss chance is actually part of the handicap for the move ["if you don't want to miss fire blast, use ember!"] - its sole purpose isn't to screw you over, it's just that you have to keep that in mind when you pick that move for your poke. anecdotal as fuck, but evasion boosts pretty much exist for the sake of making you an asshole.
-le not opinion time-

that said, why are you guys talking about evasion like it's all the same? it's not like brightpowder, double team, the +2 that minimize gets, and abilities like snow cloak and sand veil [moody, too!] are of the same effectiveness; some things are honestly so terrible that they aren't banned, just because they're so worthless and will almost never do what you want, and even then, it's even less likely to actually matter, like acupressure. why aren't you guys actually being useful and discussing each facet of it and determining what ought to be banned and what shouldn't be? of course all bans are subjective; personally, i didn't think frosslass in uu was broken, for example, but it was banned all the same. that doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like civil human beings and not like retards flailing their arms and running after the scared-shitless icecream truck driver. grow up.

 

[Karxrida]

Explain to me how you consider banning evasion dedication to real game mechanics?? We'd be playing our own made up game? Explain to me how that's not exactly what you're doing, playing your own made up game without evasion.

Honestly, this seems like people being afraid of change. Fact of the matter is, evasion mechanics are different now. It's no longer pure luck, so it's no longer uncompetitive. roar/whirlwind 100% accurate. toxic from poison pkm 100% accurate. defog and haze with defog getting a GAME defining buff. People are applying outdated knowledge to a complete new meta.


If someone uses double team, or minimize just once, and out of pure luck you can't hit them, and they sweep you because of it, before this gen I would call that uncompetitive. This generation, if someone uses double team or minimize just once and out of pure luck you can't hit them and they sweep, I call that you being outplayed because you had several solutions available to you.

Seriously, its like complaining about all your pokemon dying to stealth rock and refusing to use rapid spin.

Pokémon was not made with balance in mind until very recently. If it was, Mewtwo, Double Team, Minimize, etc. wouldn't exist

 

[Karxrida]

I love how most likes on this thread are on posts supporting the notion that evasion is broken and should stay banned. Who said I was throwing out random numbers earlier?

 

[Shiruba]

I love how most likes on this thread are on posts supporting the notion that evasion is broken and should stay banned. Who said I was throwing out random numbers earlier?

people on this thread =/= the entire population of smogon

 

[Karxrida]

people on this thread =/= the entire population of smogon

My point still stands that the majority of the people here aren't going to let you run Double Team on your Baton Passers anytime soon.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Explain to me how you consider banning evasion dedication to real game mechanics?? We'd be playing our own made up game? Explain to me how that's not exactly what you're doing, playing your own made up game without evasion.

You misunderstand what I mean by "dedication to real game mechanics". Our "dedication" only lies insofar as the game we play has to be able to exist in cartridge-- we don't condone hacking or modifying the game. Rules that can easily be enforced in cartridge games-- this is a REQUIREMENT for competitive Pokemon.

We will of course use rules enforceable in game in order to create an environment conducive to competitive, skill based battles. Even without things like Evasion clause, Pokemon all too often results in the loss of the better player, just because of luck. We're going to impose rules that make sure this happens as little as possible (though it is of course unavoidable in Pokemon). The point is that without an environment where skill is more highly rewarded, we can't play the game competitively.



edit:

I've been looking through this thread, and honest it's nothing but:

1) People who don't seem to understand Smogon's tiers or tiering philosophy spouting bull shit.
2) The "good posters" are only posting common sense based on basic tiering standards (all that's required to counter bull shit)
3) The dumb people continuing to press on despite not understanding tiering philosophy.

ie. This thread is just terrible so I'm locking it. If another mod feels differently, they can feel free to unlock.


Just to educate:

All you need to know: Smogon bans game aspects for these reasons:
1) Being over-powered (unbalancing)
2) Being uncompetitive (reducing skill, excessively taking control/autonomy away from good players-- removing player's ability to make good decisions to win)

Moody, Evasion, and several other bans we have made in the past are based on number 2-- uncompetitive-- NOT number 1, (unbalancing). No matter what "nerfs" you think Double Team has, it's still breaching #2, it still is uncompetitive and easily removed. Therefore, it will stay banned.