Pokémon Togekiss

[DTHaseo]

Has anyone given thought to a more defensive togekiss set outside of boosting being more akin to the bulky attacker? I was thinking either from of support such as T-Wave, and Defog can be useful with standard coverage moves, but I've never been good with coming up with strong defensive sets. If a good defensive set could be made then it'll be able to fit into a lot more cores, and play a very vital part in core with Dragons or Steels(or both).

 

[AceTogeTrainer]

I really don't think Aura Sphere is viable on Togekiss anymore. Togekiss is my favourite Pokemon of all time so I've had tonnes of experience and although fighting has a lot of coverage is doesn't help much in this specific metagame. Almost all steel types are either part psychic or bug (scizor, metagross) ... and now the newest top tier steels are part fairy and ghost (mawile, Aegislash). So it's almost infinitely better to have Fire coverage since it hits all these steels, plus any ice types. The other types Fighting coverage would get is Dark (which Dazzling Gleam deals with), Normal (which isn't too common in the first place) and Rock (which isn't common either aside from Terrakion and Tyranitar both of which are weak to Fairy).

I'm just stating this because it's not even funny how many battles I've lost from having Aura Sphere over Fire Blast. It seems cooler but is real much less useful.

Currently I'm using
- Fire Blast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Nasty Plot

Which is heavily flawed... I should remove Nasty Plot for thunder wave but it took me forever to breed it onto him so I feel bad to remove it.

 

[SpaceFlare]

I think either a Ground type or Steel type pairs really well with Togekiss as both types can come in on Steel, Poison, Rock, and Electric moves.

Garchomp would really love to be able to come in when people throw a rock/electric move, and I think a MegaChomp can even dent something off the bat with his monstrous attacking stats.

I think Hippowdon might work too, and he'll be able to provide SR support for the team as well. On the same vein for steel types, I think Ferrothorn might be a nice defensive pair for Togekiss as well.

 

[Reptarland4563]

Magnezone would be good too cause it can remove steel types and then togekiss can destroy the opponent
Also a ground poke would be good too, because it can be helpful if togekiss needs a switch from a electric type

 

[Dragontamer]

When the metagame solidifies, we can start talking about specific threats / specific counters (and the moves Togekiss should run for those specific threats).

Until then, Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam is perfect neutral coverage outside of Pyroar... and as far as I'm concerned.... it hits the types I'm most concerned with. (Dazzling Gleam for Dragons, Shadow Ball for Ghosts)

 

[absolfusion]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this, but with togekiss' retype, togekiss and garchomp would make almost perfect partners. Chomp is immune/resistant to at least three of togekiss' main weaknesses, mainly rock, poison, and electric attacks, and chomp can use earthquake to help deal with troublesome steel and poison pokemon. togekiss can in turn absorb dragon moves and sponge special moves directed at garchomp like moon blast or ice beam.

 

[Alphanex20]

Been thinking that Aegislash and Scizor would be excellent partners. Both are immune to poison and are bulky enough to take neutral Electric attacks. Plus they like the Defog, paralysis, and (when it is released) Heal Bell support. Beyond that, both (moreso Aegislash) can destroy Togekiss's worst enemy in MegaGengar. Rotom-W is a problem for them, but Rest Goodra handles him easily enough (rest shrugs off the burn and when Heal Bell is legal...hoo boy).

 

[glutularphysics]

As others have already mentioned, fire blast or shadow ball are actually looking wayyy more appealing than aura sphere this gen. with a bit of luck you can keep threats like aegislash flinched enough to whittle 'em down with air slash, but dazzle and aura sphere are useless. the 60% chance to burn from fire blast is always useful too, and the 40% chance to reduce spD from shadow ball is nice when paired with nasty plot.

4MSS strikes again.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Until then, Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam is perfect neutral coverage outside of Pyroar... and as far as I'm concerned.... it hits the types I'm most concerned with. (Dazzling Gleam for Dragons, Shadow Ball for Ghosts)

The problem is that this doesn't make use of Togekiss's best weapon: Air Slash Flinch hax. Any set without it is wasted potential in my book, because so many other things have more speed and/or power than Togekiss when it comes to pure attacking.

As others have already mentioned, fire blast or shadow ball are actually looking wayyy more appealing than aura sphere this gen. with a bit of luck you can keep threats like aegislash flinched enough to whittle 'em down with air slash, but dazzle and aura sphere are useless. the 60% chance to burn from fire blast is always useful too, and the 40% chance to reduce spD from shadow ball is nice when paired with nasty plot.

4MSS strikes again.

First of all, Fire Blast only has a 20% burn rate, even with Serene Grace. But you're right, Togekiss wishes it could run both TWave and Air Slash, as well as Roost and Nasty Plot, on top of Baton Pass and a coverage move or two. You can't have it all so it's important to pick a role for Togekiss. In my experience, it's best used as a bulky special attacker with TWave, or a bulky booster with NP.

 

[Tribute]

it can't, as noted in the OP.
with a bit of luck you can keep threats like aegislash flinched enough to whittle 'em down with air slash.

Why not just outright kill with fblast or sball?

 

[glutularphysics]

First of all, Fire Blast only has a 20% burn rate, even with Serene Grace. But you're right, Togekiss wishes it could run both TWave and Air Slash, as well as Roost and Nasty Plot, on top of Baton Pass and a coverage move or two. You can't have it all so it's important to pick a role for Togekiss. In my experience, it's best used as a bulky special attacker with TWave, or a bulky booster with NP.

oh derp, FB only had 30% in Gen 1. I usually prefer Flamethrower over it so I never noticed, thanks for correcting me. and yeah, I ran bulky booster for most of last gen and I probably will again this time around. paraflinch was nice, but with electric types immune to paralysis now I'm a little wary of it.

Why not just outright kill with fblast or sball?

yes that's what I was saying. only having a combo of dazzle/aura sphere + air slash leaves you in a tricky spot with most steel types.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Why not just outright kill with fblast or sball?

Yeah, Aegislash is a really horrible example of a Pokemon to wear down with Flinch hax, it takes pitiful damage and most carry lefties, King's Shield, and Shadow Sneak to easily play around any Air Slash antics.

However, against a large number of Pokemon NOT named Aegislash, Air Slash flinching is a great way to lower them down into KO range. Togekiss doesn't have that much power, and that's not helped by the fact that it usually runs a bulkier spread. Since it usually can't outright KO opposing Pokemon, even with the correct coverage move, Air Slash gives you that great 57% chance of free damage.

 

[-Green-]

So... if I want a bulky offensive togekiss, should I use the set on the first post or another EV spread or Moveset? Fairy / Fire / Fighting is amazing coverage but the 60% flinch chance can be extremely useful. The problem is that I am not going to use it with paralysis support, just as a bulky special attacker with recovery.

Some advice about what could be better?

 

[Forsety]

Amusing thing worth mentioning is Togekiss on a grass based team when Grass Terrain is active, Secret Power becomes a 60% sleep rate 70 BP attack for Togekiss.

All in all I'm seeing Togekiss taking more of a defensive pivot/cleric type role this gen that just happens to be able to be a pain when it goes on the offense.

 

[ethan06]

I'm kinda new here (lurking doesn't count, right?) so bear with me if this comes out weird. I'm currently running Togekiss under Sticky Web support in 3v3 WiFi singles and it is amazing. Its invested bulk means that it never takes more than about 20% from a neutral hit while I can simply play around it and come out on top. Here's my set:

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Serene Grace
Bold
252 HP/176 Def/80 Sp. Def
-Air Slash
-Thunder Wave
-Encore
-Nasty Plot

I'm surprised that nobody is considering Encore, especially considering how trivial it makes setting up. In the 3v3 format, there's little danger of Stealth Rocks so Togekiss can come in safely after Galvantula goes down, hopefully taking the lead with it. Everything after that is normally slower than Togekiss and therefore susceptible to Encore and Air Slash. This set works remarkably well as a check to non-Iron Head Aegislash, as Togekiss 4x resists Sacred Sword and sponges unboosted Shadow Sneak, and can paralyse or Encore it through King's Shield and set up on it with Nasty Plot.

Edit: Worth noting that Zapdos flat out walls this set and can take you out with Thunderbolt. Pack a Ground-type (Gastrodon works really well).

tl;dr Encore is viable
/2cents

 

[Aubade]

Togekiss can run Tailwind in a way similar to Agility on Metagross, with the benefit of not being removable by switches, etc. like Agility is. That way you can focus on bulk and outspeed everything in the tier at the same time. Seeing as Togekiss is able to switch in completely safely on ground and dragon moves (and with that SDef, many special moves as well) setting up Tailwind shouldn't be a problem. The only downside is the fairly short duration of the move.

I also think Togekiss can be more than just a dragon killer. Its stabs hits Dark, Fighting, Bug and Grass types super effectively as well (not to mention, it has a double resistance to fighting and resistance to dark). Togekiss can cause more than a few problems for popular pokemon like Conkeldurr, Breloom and even Tyranitar. However, Dragonite and Haxorus and Garchomp pose a problem for Togekiss - Dragonite is at the same speed and Haxorus and Garchomp plenty higher, and both have assess to a now super effective Iron Tail. Garchomp has Stone Edge as an option as well.

Considering that the majority of dragons in OU are actually able to outspeed and kill Togekiss, I'm not sure if it'll be as great as everyone claims. It'd be alright with some support though. Galvantula and Shuckle are the best options for Sticky Web support - In this case, I would definitely lean towards Shuckle. Unlike Galvantula, it can set up Stealth Rock as well. Shuckle can also severely cripple an opposing pokemon with Power Split (pretty much halving their ATK and SATK, and returning it to Shuckle. This strategy was always underrated in my opinion. Picture Mega Garchomp having its attack changed from 482 to 266, and Shuckle going from 50 attack to 266) and proceed to deal some damage with Stone Edge. Or just Toxic + Encore. Togekiss would also benefit from baton pass support - any speed boost pokemon is ideal for this one and with Scolipede gaining speed boost this gen as well as complimenting Togekiss's type, stats and coverage nicely Scolipede could be a prime supporter. It helps that Togekiss gets baton pass as well and can pass the benefits on once its done.

 

[TheEvergreenChameleon]

Togekiss can run Tailwind in a way similar to Agility on Metagross, with the benefit of not being removable by switches, etc. like Agility is. That way you can focus on bulk and outspeed everything in the tier at the same time. Seeing as Togekiss is able to switch in completely safely on ground and dragon moves (and with that SDef, many special moves as well) setting up Tailwind shouldn't be a problem. The only downside is the fairly short duration of the move.

I also think Togekiss can be more than just a dragon killer. Its stabs hits Dark, Fighting, Bug and Grass types super effectively as well (not to mention, it has a double resistance to fighting and resistance to dark). Togekiss can cause more than a few problems for popular pokemon like Conkeldurr, Breloom and even Tyranitar. However, Dragonite and Haxorus and Garchomp pose a problem for Togekiss - Dragonite is at the same speed and Haxorus and Garchomp plenty higher, and both have assess to a now super effective Iron Tail. Garchomp has Stone Edge as an option as well.

Considering that the majority of dragons in OU are actually able to outspeed and kill Togekiss, I'm not sure if it'll be as great as everyone claims. It'd be alright with some support though. Galvantula and Shuckle are the best options for Sticky Web support - In this case, I would definitely lean towards Shuckle. Unlike Galvantula, it can set up Stealth Rock as well. Shuckle can also severely cripple an opposing pokemon with Power Split (pretty much halving their ATK and SATK, and returning it to Shuckle. This strategy was always underrated in my opinion. Picture Mega Garchomp having its attack changed from 482 to 266, and Shuckle going from 50 attack to 266) and proceed to deal some damage with Stone Edge. Or just Toxic + Encore. Togekiss would also benefit from baton pass support - any speed boost pokemon is ideal for this one and with Scolipede gaining speed boost this gen as well as complimenting Togekiss's type, stats and coverage nicely Scolipede could be a prime supporter. It helps that Togekiss gets baton pass as well and can pass the benefits on once its done.

I really like the Tailwind idea, and am going to be trying it, but there is no way that Togekiss functions as a decent Breloom counter. Even assuming you've sacrificed a Pokemon to Breloom's Spore, you still can't switch in on Breloom, since he'll likely be running Rock Tomb in place of the nerfed Low Sweep, which is a clean 2HKO even with a Bold nature and 252 HP/ Def. Run +def and you can't switch into RT or Swords Dance. Run +speed and enough EVs to outpace Jolly Breloom and you can switch in on Swords Dance and force a switch, but if you switch into RT you're taking 70-80% damage, and having your speed lowered thus ensuring that Breloom moves first on the next turn and takes you out.

 

[I Am Doz]

I am wondering how a Physically defensive set would work competitively?
I currently have a Bold 31 IV in HP, Def and SAtk Togekiss 252/252/4 set that has been working rather well in wifi, however the EV's aren't optimised.
I run Max HP due to the fact that I havent encountered Stealth Rocks on wifi as often as in previous gens, and with its lower base defense I didnt see the point in investing specially defensive, or at least enough ev's to make a difference.

My set:

Togekiss@ Leftovers

HP: 252
Def: 252
S.Atk: 6

Air Slash
Dazzling Gleam
Thunder Wave
Roost

 

[sidakarya]

I am wondering how a Physically defensive set would work competitively?
I currently have a Bold 31 IV in HP, Def and SAtk Togekiss 252/252/4 set that has been working rather well in wifi, however the EV's aren't optimised.
I run Max HP due to the fact that I havent encountered Stealth Rocks on wifi as often as in previous gens, and with its lower base defense I didnt see the point in investing specially defensive, or at least enough ev's to make a difference.

You might run 44 Spe to outrun base 85 speed mons. Bold Togekiss is great, because it trolls so many things thinking it can OHKO you like M-Blaziken. If you have Sticky Web support, you can even drop Thunderwave for Fire Blast or Nasty Plot. It's still great at taking special hits, and the metagame is more slanted to the physical, at least before the Pokébank.

From what I saw trying Togekiss, Aura Sphere isn't all that great. All the Steel-types it has to worry about now are either neutral (Scizor, M-Mawile), immune (Aegislash), or takes more damage from fire anyway (Ferrothorn), and the nerf doesn't help either. On the other hand, Shadow Ball is surprisingly good since M-Gengar is absolutely everywhere, and as a bonus, takes advantage of Serene Grace for Nasty Plot sets.

 

[I Am Doz]

I've tried Aura Sphere myself, and I always chose Dazzling Gleam or Air Slash. Steels I generally switch from, as I can handle them perfectly fine through my team. The only use for Aura Sphere is Tyranitar as far as I can tell, but that isnt worth running it in my opinion
I don't currently use a Spider Web user, Waiting to see who can learn it through breeding (hoping for larvesta personally!) If I do use one in my team, Fire Blast will be the move to replace Thunder Wave, as to hit Scizor, Ferrathorn, Aegislash ect.
In regards to the ev's are you suggesting 252 HP, 208/212 Def (if I drop S.Atk evs), 44 Spd?

 

[Yunchang]

Paraflinching, thunderwaving, airslashing bastards. I refuse to put them on my team because it feels so wrong to use it. But they are definitely in the metagame. All the japanese kids online love them. My only counter is sending out yveltal first and taunting it. then oblivion wing them and hope I come out on top and he doesn't get enough flinches. Got any other suggestions on how to take this chicken down?

 

[Machi]

Paraflinching, thunderwaving, airslashing bastards. I refuse to put them on my team because it feels so wrong to use it. But they are definitely in the metagame. All the japanese kids online love them. My only counter is sending out yveltal first and taunting it. then oblivion wing them and hope I come out on top and he doesn't get enough flinches. Got any other suggestions on how to take this chicken down?

Uh any good electric types, Rotom-W being the most common, since the already mentioned immunity to paralysis this gen by electric types. They'd not only resist the air slash, as well as being immune to paralysis, but easily threaten it.

 

[MagnetBoy]

rotom-w or any other good electric type takes a dump on togekiss, they will be forced to switch out. That is why I have mine as a hybrid between a para-flincher and baton passer. see electric type on their team --> predict the switch-in --> get a free nasty plot. specially defensive so no one is going to 1 shot you with thunderbolt or anything. that's why this guy is versatile and dangerous.

 

[NightFalcon]

Electric things are a worry yeah, mostly because of their inability to be TWave paralyzed.

The cool thing as Togekiss though is pretty much no matter what moves you choose you can battle everything pretty solidly after a Nasty Plot. I've been running Thrower/Wave/Plot/ASlash and just destroying most things who walk into me after a Plot. Even a set like this can still take down Heatran simply by ASlash flinching.

 

[Dragontamer]

Special attackers are going to need STAB on Electric or Ice attacks to get past Togekiss. Specs-Starmie 3HKOs Bulky Togekiss with Thunderbolt / Ice Beam. Electric Types are definitely Togekiss's bane... but without STAB, Togekiss more or less laughs off BoltBeam.