Pokémon Heracross

[Verminator]

arm thrust is lackbuster really since its a 15 powered move wich ecomes 75 on 5 hits which is pathetic i prefer to loose the defense than having to take several hits

I'm sorry, but I just can't follow that logic at all. You're okay with losing defensive boosts on a defensive boosting set? Close Combat is for pokes that are fast and frail and thus don't really have to be concerned about taking hits. And with only base 75 speed, you WILL be taking hits from offensive pokes, guaranteed, whether you want to or not. To compromise Megacross' otherwise solid defenses is suicide, and in even the best case scenario you'll be forced out and the attack boosts you've accrued will be wasted.

And yes, while Arm Thrust is a hell of a lot weaker than CC, is that really going to matter when you have a base 185 attack stat that's also boosted by Bulk Up on top of that? Conkeldurr has no problem using Drain Punch, which is also a base 75 power move, as its primary STAB, and he's "only" base 140 in comparison. He has no problem crushing most of the tier at +1 with that. You never see BU Conkeldurr using Superpower, even though that's base 120, because it discards the boosts that you worked so hard to accumulate.

To be honest, I see CC on Megacross as being a bad option on any set other than a bulky 4-attacks set that attacks off the bat with no setup and then immediately switches out. With no Scarf, and reduced speed, while it will usually kill the opponent, it will also leave you prone to being revenge killed. Megacross has strong bulk. Play according to that strength, not that of regular Heracross, who is faster and can also hold a Scarf.

 

[pedro702]

I'm sorry, but I just can't follow that logic at all. You're okay with losing defensive boosts on a defensive boosting set? Close Combat is for pokes that are fast and frail and thus don't really have to be concerned about taking hits. And with only base 75 speed, you WILL be taking hits from offensive pokes, guaranteed, whether you want to or not. To compromise Megacross' otherwise solid defenses is suicide, and in even the best case scenario you'll be forced out and the attack boosts you've accrued will be wasted.

And yes, while Arm Thrust is a hell of a lot weaker than CC, is that really going to matter when you have a base 185 attack stat that's also boosted by Bulk Up on top of that? Conkeldurr has no problem using Drain Punch, which is also a base 75 power move, as its primary STAB, and he's "only" base 140 in comparison. He has no problem crushing most of the tier at +1 with that. You never see BU Conkeldurr using Superpower, even though that's base 120, because it discards the boosts that you worked so hard to accumulate.

To be honest, I see CC on Megacross as being a bad option on any set other than a bulky 4-attacks set that attacks off the bat with no setup and then immediately switches out. With no Scarf, and reduced speed, while it will usually kill the opponent, it will also leave you prone to being revenge killed. Megacross has strong bulk. Play according to that strength, not that of regular Heracross, who is faster and can also hold a Scarf.

the conckledur uses drain punch because it can gain health back , if it had to decide between harmmer arm and brick brake i bet it would choose hammer arm , arm thrust besides trying to pass subs is really lackbuster and since heracross is bulky you will take a hit and ohko back with close combat , i rarely use close combat anyway no one likes to bring things weak to fighting vs heracross i dropped pin missile for earthquake i run bulk up,close combate,rock blast and EQ, the stuff you would use pin missile is very rare now that fairy has yet another bug resist.

I really wish heracross learned drain punch it would be amazing for the bulk up set

 

[Impy]

It'll learn Drain Punch some day, and then people will have a reason to use a specially bulky conkleldur with excellent wallbreaking, sub-slaying abilities in OU. Having reliable recovery to accent that silly base 185 at the same time will be Megacross's saving grace.

Until then, though, it's probably the most underwhelming Mega so far. It doesn't really have anything that sets it above its base form, and I wouldn't say it justifies the team slot when there are better tanky megas like Gyarados and Aggron and Venusaur.

And Bug/Fighting sure as hell isn't a good enough defensive typing to justify a lack of recovery.

 

[Jaroda]

As I mentioned before if you're going to go with Bulk Up then you probably want to forego a Fighting move altogether. Why? Well, Arm Thrust is horrible. Even with Skill Link the BP would be the same as Brick Break, which at least has the benefit of breaking down screens. CC as we mentioned kills his tank potential. Revenge is the next best option, being potentially as strong as CC would be normally but like Avalance it requires getting damaged first. Now yes you won't be very fast and you'll be pretty bulky but it's simply an unreliable option that we aren't forced to make just yet. What else have you got? Rock Smash?

Not to mention that Fighting and Bug STAB just gets you walled by too many things. Flying and Fairy resist both of these STABS. Earthquake will handle the Steel and Rock types that Fighting would normally hit, and Rock Blast will hit the Ice types (lol). In addition you get Fire, Flying, Poison, Bug and Electric types covered now. Your Bug STAB has no overlap with these moves so it gives you the best possible coverage and all three have a BP of at least 100. And with Bulk Up unless something is a 4x resist you could muscle through most walls. No fighting STAB means you really just can't get Normal types, which are rare. Bullet Seed finally has some viability giving you fierce ammunition against Ground, Rock and Water. So the Bulk Up set really has to look like this.

Herecross@Heracronite
Skill Link
Careful 252 HP / 4 Df / 252 SpD
or
Adamant 4 Hp / 252 At / 252 SpD
~ Bulk Up
~ Pin Missle
~ Rock Blast
~ Earthquake/Bullet Seed

Depending on your team you'll either want the At EVs to hit as hard as possible sooner and rely on OHKOing many things rather than failing to and relying on the HP EVs to compensate. If your team has plenty of special walls or an assault vest user, you may prefer the extra At. Pin Missle and Rock Blast are the bare necessities, you simply need these two moves. Rock is far too important for nailing Fire and Flying types that want to switch in and ruin your day. It's also a very common secondary typing. As for EQ vs. BS, here are some threats each takes care of that your other two moves don't already.

Earthquake:
Aegislash
Blaziken (If he switches in after you've gotten a Bulk Up, +0 Flare Blitz will fail to OHKO you. 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 283-338 (82.26 - 98.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Even with Stealth Rock a resist means the chance for a OHKO is paltry)
Mega Aggron
Heatran
Jirachi
Magnezone
Tentacruel
Lucario

Bullet Seed
Rotom-W
Hippowdon
Gliscor
Donphan
Vaporeon

I can't think of many others, but it seems EQ gives you the edge. Many things that run a Fire move for coverage fail to OHKO the Careful spread.
192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 203-239 (62.65 - 73.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie (70 BP) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 117-138 (36.11 - 42.59%) -- 95.36% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 62-74 (19.13 - 22.83%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 108-128 (33.33 - 39.5%) -- 18.63% chance to 3HKO
0- SpA Garchomp (120 BP) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 90-108 (27.77 - 33.33%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 238-282 (73.45 - 87.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see not even Specs Latios with a Draco Meteor can one shot it. One Bulk Up is pretty sufficient to start your rampage and he will at least be capable of OHKOing many things that would normally think they can counter it with their Fire move of choice. So you at least don't have to worry about him biting the dust to a stray super special attack right off the bat.

 

[pedro702]

As I mentioned before if you're going to go with Bulk Up then you probably want to forego a Fighting move altogether. Why? Well, Arm Thrust is horrible. Even with Skill Link the BP would be the same as Brick Break, which at least has the benefit of breaking down screens. CC as we mentioned kills his tank potential. Revenge is the next best option, being potentially as strong as CC would be normally but like Avalance it requires getting damaged first. Now yes you won't be very fast and you'll be pretty bulky but it's simply an unreliable option that we aren't forced to make just yet. What else have you got? Rock Smash?

Not to mention that Fighting and Bug STAB just gets you walled by too many things. Flying and Fairy resist both of these STABS. Earthquake will handle the Steel and Rock types that Fighting would normally hit, and Rock Blast will hit the Ice types (lol). In addition you get Fire, Flying, Poison, Bug and Electric types covered now. Your Bug STAB has no overlap with these moves so it gives you the best possible coverage and all three have a BP of at least 100. And with Bulk Up unless something is a 4x resist you could muscle through most walls. No fighting STAB means you really just can't get Normal types, which are rare. Bullet Seed finally has some viability giving you fierce ammunition against Ground, Rock and Water. So the Bulk Up set really has to look like this.

Herecross@Heracronite
Skill Link
Careful 252 HP / 4 Df / 252 SpD
or
Adamant 4 Hp / 252 At / 252 SpD
~ Bulk Up
~ Pin Missle
~ Rock Blast
~ Earthquake/Bullet Seed

Depending on your team you'll either want the At EVs to hit as hard as possible sooner and rely on OHKOing many things rather than failing to and relying on the HP EVs to compensate. If your team has plenty of special walls or an assault vest user, you may prefer the extra At. Pin Missle and Rock Blast are the bare necessities, you simply need these two moves. Rock is far too important for nailing Fire and Flying types that want to switch in and ruin your day. It's also a very common secondary typing. As for EQ vs. BS, here are some threats each takes care of that your other two moves don't already.

Earthquake:
Aegislash
Blaziken (If he switches in after you've gotten a Bulk Up, +0 Flare Blitz will fail to OHKO you. 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 283-338 (82.26 - 98.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Even with Stealth Rock a resist means the chance for a OHKO is paltry)
Mega Aggron
Heatran
Jirachi
Magnezone
Tentacruel
Lucario

Bullet Seed
Rotom-W
Hippowdon
Gliscor
Donphan
Vaporeon

I can't think of many others, but it seems EQ gives you the edge. Many things that run a Fire move for coverage fail to OHKO the Careful spread.
192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 203-239 (62.65 - 73.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie (70 BP) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 117-138 (36.11 - 42.59%) -- 95.36% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 62-74 (19.13 - 22.83%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 108-128 (33.33 - 39.5%) -- 18.63% chance to 3HKO
0- SpA Garchomp (120 BP) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 90-108 (27.77 - 33.33%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heracross: 238-282 (73.45 - 87.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see not even Specs Latios with a Draco Meteor can one shot it. One Bulk Up is pretty sufficient to start your rampage and he will at least be capable of OHKOing many things that would normally think they can counter it with their Fire move of choice. So you at least don't have to worry about him biting the dust to a stray super special attack right off the bat.

dkn about droping fighting i think its way more useful than bug imo bug is SE against psychic,dark,grass wich first, most psychic types defenses are crap on the phisical side wich means any move will kill them,fighting is also SE on dark and most grass types you will face arent even weak to bug i dont think i ever used pin missile on an online match lol i just couldnt find a single pokemon i needed it to use against, i mean unless your facing a creselia it seems pretty useless imo

the reason i used 92 speed evs is to make sure i can pass some walls and hit them before i get destroyed not running a single speed evs will make you really easy to burn by WoW or even by random scalds and you dont have guts anymore so that might be a problem there.

you listed gliscor on bullet seed but he takes the same from rock blast tough unless he roosts.

 

[nygerman]

Mega heracross will be a powerful force in RU or NU

 

[Shiruba]

Mega heracross will be a powerful force in RU or NU

RU and NU? Dude, regular Hera was top-tier UU last time, with the main reason it not being downright S-tier at the end due to its being "adapted around" by the metagame, and it was still S-tier for a while. This thing, with a great ability to go with a stupidly high 185 physical attack and nice bulk, will surely be UU at least, even if regular Heracross drops for some reason.

 

[Jaroda]

dkn about droping fighting i think its way more useful than bug imo bug is SE against psychic,dark,grass wich first, most psychic types defenses are crap on the phisical side wich means any move will kill them,fighting is also SE on dark and most grass types you will face arent even weak to bug i dont think i ever used pin missile on an online match lol i just couldnt find a single pokemon i needed it to use against, i mean unless your facing a creselia it seems pretty useless imo

the reason i used 92 speed evs is to make sure i can pass some walls and hit them before i get destroyed not running a single speed evs will make you really easy to burn by WoW or even by random scalds and you dont have guts anymore so that might be a problem there.

you listed gliscor on bullet seed but he takes the same from rock blast tough unless he roosts.

I didnt do speed calcs but theres probably a happy middle ground between SpD and Spd EVs. There is some leighway. But as I said specifically on the Bulk Up set your choice of Fighting moves makes it suck that you want Rock/Ground to cover it. With STAB both Brick Break and Arm Thrust only have 7.5 more BP than Earthquake. I listed the specific cases this comes in handy, as you can not tell me not having a move for Aegislash is helpful, on top of everything else. Also Metagross amd Klefki now that I think about it. CC is counterintuitive and should never be used on something like Megacross, the exact opposite of what benefits from it. That being fast and frail. With no Pin Missle you suffer now against Slowbro, Reuniclus, stronger than EQ on Mega Venusaur, Starmie, Whimsicott, and its just as good against most Dark types. The fact is this is the best set for coverage given his move list.

 

[xSilentDeviL]

Mega heracross will be a powerful force in RU or NU

Theres a better chance of luvdisc making OU than heracross god forbid Mega heracross being in NU lmaoo

 

[JamesHardenBeard]

cleaned up

i kept a few discussion questions to go off of, but i wanted to get thoughts on guts vs moxie. personally, i think guts is much better, basically for this reason - there just aren't enough scenarios where heracross is going to want to do anything with moxie. his attacks are just too unreliable, especially as his item would be an unused mega stone, and if you choose to moxie close combat, then that kind of defeats the point of his good defenses the megalution takes on, especially with that lowered speed. i think that being able to switch into a will o wisp as a last desperate act is far more relevant for mega heracross. obviously, you're not hoping to use either ability.. ever, but i think that just with a higher accuracy will o wisp, and the defensive mons using them (rotom-w/gourgeist/etc) the situations where you're going to want it are bound to come up far more often. one last point against moxie: it's usefulness basically comes from being able to sweep teams when it gets going, but obviously heracross is going to be pretty slow (and the speed evs (and lack thereof) discussion is a good one to be had as well) so it's going to look to get going vs defensive teams, as offensive ones will just outspeed and revenge if they get moxied on. i just have to ask what type of defensive team wont be able to counter a pin missile/rock blast/close combat/bullet seed initially unboosted heracross in the first place? are we pretending we're going to use a set up move like bulk up or swords dance without mega evolving?

I'm wondering the same things..

I see why you're skeptic about moxie, but at least the boost carries over to mega Heracross, right? I'm guessing that if you get burned/para/poison and then mega evolve, you lose the attack boost from guts. So it doesn't really do anything for you.

But I see your argument as well.. Heracross is too damn slow to make use of Moxie without a scarf.

This is where I'm lost at. I have no clue what set to use for a MegaCross. Moxie will be almost useless without speed EVs, but MegaCross' speed too crappy to invest in?

So many questions around MegaCross.

 

[Jaroda]

Megacross demands support, you need to build a team around it. It will love Sticky Web support as an example, or paralysis, so some Thunder Wave Parashuffling could be in order. And if you run Light Screen, you could possibly forego SpD EVs and put more into attack. You'd want something that can take those Fire, Flying and Psychic moves if you're not set up yet, and Tyranitar just happens to resist all three, and with Assault Vest he's a fantastic special sponge. Slowbro also resists Psychic and Fire and is super bulky, not being threatened by Blaziken or Talonflame (minus U-Turn) and with Regenerator has long legs to stand on.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I still think you guys are trying too hard to make this a stand-out sweeper. I think it's best as a physical tank, an offensive check. If I was going to try out a megacross, I'd actually think of Adamant with MINIMAL ATK investment, maxing HP and throwing a ton of EVs into Defense.

Just look at this shit:

80 HP / 115 DEF
neutral to Rock
.5 damage Dark
.5 damage Ground
.25 damage Fighting
.5 damage Bug
.5 damage Grass

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 121-144 (33.24 - 39.56%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 80-95 (21.97 - 26.09%) -- possible 4HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 126-148 (34.61 - 40.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.82%) -- possible 4HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross in sand: 103-122 (28.29 - 33.51%) -- 97.27% chance to 3HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 120-140 (32.96 - 38.46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 97-115 (26.64 - 31.59%) -- 45.34% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 72-86 (19.78 - 23.62%) -- possible 4HKO

CB Garchomp does only around 70% to this thing with Outrage.

In Ubers, I'd probably use this thing, and go Max HP, Adamant, min ATK, 200+ Evs SpD
+1 4 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment (Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 97-114 (26.64 - 31.31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 4 SpA Arceus-Fighting Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 102-121 (28.02 - 33.24%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 4 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment (Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 129-153 (35.43 - 42.03%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 74-88 (20.32 - 24.17%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 118-140 (32.41 - 38.46%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 148-175 (40.65 - 48.07%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 237-279 (65.1 - 76.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[pedro702]

I still think you guys are trying too hard to make this a stand-out sweeper. I think it's best as a physical tank, an offensive check. If I was going to try out a megacross, I'd actually think of Adamant with MINIMAL ATK investment, maxing HP and throwing a ton of EVs into Defense.

Just look at this shit:

80 HP / 115 DEF
neutral to Rock
.5 damage Dark
.5 damage Ground
.5 damage Fighting
.5 damage Bug
.5 damage Grass

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 121-144 (33.24 - 39.56%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 80-95 (21.97 - 26.09%) -- possible 4HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 126-148 (34.61 - 40.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.82%) -- possible 4HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Landorus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross in sand: 103-122 (28.29 - 33.51%) -- 97.27% chance to 3HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 120-140 (32.96 - 38.46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 97-115 (26.64 - 31.59%) -- 45.34% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 72-86 (19.78 - 23.62%) -- possible 4HKO

CB Garchomp does only around 70% to this thing with Outrage.

In Ubers, I'd probably use this thing, and go Max HP, Adamant, min ATK, 200+ Evs SpD
+1 4 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment (Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 97-114 (26.64 - 31.31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 4 SpA Arceus-Fighting Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 102-121 (28.02 - 33.24%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 4 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment (Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 129-153 (35.43 - 42.03%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 74-88 (20.32 - 24.17%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 118-140 (32.41 - 38.46%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 148-175 (40.65 - 48.07%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Heracross: 237-279 (65.1 - 76.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

the thing is can mega heracross ko them back? its not like he has leftovers so the damage will really hurt him in the long run imo

 

[Chou Toshio]

So that's only 80 into HP and 115 into Def. Are the rest going to Speed and Attack?

Come on man... use your common sense. That's Heracross's base stats. I said that Hera would have 252 in HP and a heavy investment in defense, with the rest in ATK. Try reading the post...

the thing is can mega heracross ko them back? its not like he has leftovers so the damage will really hurt him in the long run imo

Can Heracross hurt them back...?

56+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 253-298 (73.76 - 86.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^2HKO when combined with any of Heracross' other attacks, including Pin Missle
56+ Atk Heracross Pin Missle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 274-324 (76.53 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 153-180 (47.96 - 56.42%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO

56+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 128-151 (33.59 - 39.63%) -- 24.29% chance to 3HKO
^Keep in mind that without heavy ATK investment, Landorus-T has to hope for a 5HKO on bulky Heracross with Stone Edge.
56+ Atk Heracross Pin Missle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 316-373 (120.61 - 142.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Heracross Pin Missle vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 219-258 (68.43 - 80.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 928-1096 (229.7 - 271.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 606-714 (167.86 - 197.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(^Mamoswine's crash is a 3HKO on Heracross)

So yeah... 185 base attack WRECKS SHIT even with only Adamant and 56 ATK evs. Then again, anyone who's fought Leftovers Mixed Kyurem B should know that with enough base attack (not to mention dual 125+ STAB attacks), you can wreck shit without a whole lot of ATK EVs.

Heracross will not be a good mon unless the metagame changes (read: Pokemon get banned) so that Pokemon like Excadrill, Scizor, Tyranitar, Landorus, Terrakion, and Breloom are the top threats. If a metagame formes (in OU or UU) where similar threats are at the top, Mega Heracross will be really good as one of their best checks.

By the way, if you need to use it as an emergency Aegislash check:
56+ Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash (Shield Forme): 198-234 (61.11 - 72.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash (Sword Form) Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 105-124 (28.84 - 34.06%) -- 2.08% chance to 3HKO

 

[bugsinwater]

Mega heracross will be a powerful force in RU or NU

The fact that you are comparing Megacross to Armaldo or Escavalier is shocking to me. Megacross has enough bulk and power to keep its self minimum a top tier threat in UU, but lets not forget that its attack and bulk can have it last against many Pokemon in OU, and its typing and attacks can prove to be highly affective against many Pokemon traditionally in the uber tier.

Yes fire and flying type attacks will prove to be huge checks agains Megacross, but with the proper set up this Pokemon will undoubtedly be a force to reckon with.

To me my question is which Pokemon will be competitively more viable, the juiced up Megacross, or the Scarfed Heracross? Can someone compare how the two would last against common threats in OU and Uber, and how much damage they can do against those same threats in OU and Uber tiers?

 

[pedro702]

Come on man... use your common sense. That's Heracross's base stats. I said that Hera would have 252 in HP and a heavy investment in defense, with the rest in ATK. Try reading the post...




Can Heracross hurt them back...?

56+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 253-298 (73.76 - 86.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^2HKO when combined with any of Heracross' other attacks, including Pin Missle
56+ Atk Heracross Pin Missle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 274-324 (76.53 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 153-180 (47.96 - 56.42%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO

56+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 128-151 (33.59 - 39.63%) -- 24.29% chance to 3HKO
^Keep in mind that without heavy ATK investment, Landorus-T has to hope for a 5HKO on bulky Heracross with Stone Edge.
56+ Atk Heracross Pin Missle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 316-373 (120.61 - 142.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Heracross Pin Missle vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 219-258 (68.43 - 80.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 928-1096 (229.7 - 271.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 606-714 (167.86 - 197.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(^Mamoswine's crash is a 3HKO on Heracross)

So yeah... 185 base attack WRECKS SHIT even with only Adamant and 56 ATK evs. Then again, anyone who's fought Leftovers Mixed Kyurem B should know that with enough base attack (not to mention dual 125+ STAB attacks), you can wreck shit without a whole lot of ATK EVs.

Heracross will not be a good mon unless the metagame changes (read: Pokemon get banned) so that Pokemon like Excadrill, Scizor, Tyranitar, Landorus, Terrakion, and Breloom are the top threats. If a metagame formes (in OU or UU) where similar threats are at the top, Mega Heracross will be really good as one of their best checks.

By the way, if you need to use it as an emergency Aegislash check:
56+ Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash (Shield Forme): 198-234 (61.11 - 72.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash (Sword Form) Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 105-124 (28.84 - 34.06%) -- 2.08% chance to 3HKO

this is what i was afraid off heracross cant switch into many of those pokemons you have to hope they switch into you wich doesnt sound very appealing imo and remenber if you use close combat and they live your at -1 defense so if you took 40% before you are dead after :S mega heracross really wanted drain punch shame it doesnt learn it even on gen5 :S

not being able to switch in on those pokemons makes heracross a bad revenge killer imo

 

[Chou Toshio]

this is what i was afraid off heracross cant switch into many of those pokemons you have to hope they switch into you wich doesnt sound very appealing imo and remenber if you use close combat and they live your at -1 defense so if you took 40% before you are dead after :S mega heracross really wanted drain punch shame it doesnt learn it even on gen5 :S

not being able to switch in on those pokemons makes heracross a bad revenge killer imo

Dude, this is 6th gen, not 2nd. This is a bulky tank, not a wall. Heracross can TOTALLY switch into those pokes-- what are you talking about?

If a Pokemon is only 3HKO'd by the opponent's BEST move against it, that's a good switch in. If Heracross switches into the moves it resists (you know... if you actually try to predict...), those things barely manage a 4HKO, often a 5HKO. The opponent can only 3HKO at BEST (often relying on Stone Fail), but will on average 4-6HKO? Damn man, that's a good switch in!

Heracross switches into Scizor's Superpower or Breloom's Mach Punch (which will often happen when you're PREDICTING WELL), those moves do jack shit. Did you not see the calc where CB Scizor's SUPERPOWER does 26% MAX??

Let's look at some of the NON-OPTIMAL calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 90-105 (24.72 - 28.84%) -- possible 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 48-57 (13.18 - 15.65%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 77-91 (21.15 - 25%) -- possible 4HKO
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 55-66 (15.1 - 18.13%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 51-60 (14.01 - 16.48%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 109-129 (29.94 - 35.43%) -- 26.37% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 92-108 (25.27 - 29.67%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.82%) -- possible 4HKO
^Icicle Crash does 44% Max

Clearly, Heracross can switch into these Pokes well by metagame standards.

Also, the defense drops are moot in light of the calcs I posted before. I noted that you can Pin Missle / EQ / Stone Edge first before KO'ing Scizor with CC. Every other opponent Heracross uses CC against is a clean OHKO!

 

[pedro702]

Dude, this is 6th gen, not 2nd. This is a bulky tank, not a wall. Heracross can TOTALLY switch into those pokes-- what are you talking about?

If a Pokemon is only 3HKO'd by the opponent's BEST move against it, that's a good switch in. If Heracross switches into the moves it resists (you know... if you actually try to predict...), those things barely manage a 4HKO, often a 5HKO. The opponent can only 3HKO at BEST (often relying on Stone Fail), but will on average 4-6HKO? Damn man, that's a good switch in!

Heracross switches into Scizor's Superpower or Breloom's Mach Punch (which will often happen when you're PREDICTING WELL), those moves do jack shit. Did you not see the calc where CB Scizor's SUPERPOWER does 26% MAX??

Let's look at some of the NON-OPTIMAL calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 90-105 (24.72 - 28.84%) -- possible 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 48-57 (13.18 - 15.65%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 77-91 (21.15 - 25%) -- possible 4HKO
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 55-66 (15.1 - 18.13%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 51-60 (14.01 - 16.48%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 109-129 (29.94 - 35.43%) -- 26.37% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 92-108 (25.27 - 29.67%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.82%) -- possible 4HKO
^Icicle Crash does 44% Max

Clearly, Heracross can switch into these Pokes well by metagame standards.

Also, the defense drops are moot in light of the calcs I posted before. I noted that you can Pin Missle / EQ / Stone Edge first before KO'ing Scizor with CC. Every other opponent Heracross uses CC against is a clean OHKO!

well you cant switch into scizor bullet punch and brellom calc is pointless since he can just spore you before you do anything back, and i know he can take resisted hits well but even some neutral hits do some around 30% plus and being slow doesnt help since you will take another before atacking i really tried making heracross work but he fells to lackbuster the best it could do bulk up it was the only set i found out it did some work, running max speed like its on the OU 6 gen analyse just makes him crappy imo that defensive set and bulk up set should be the main sets.

your defensive set shure is good at forcing switches and making some entry hazard damage.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Bullet Punch is rarely Scizor's go-to move. Just use some prediction. While Breloom now gets screwed by a whole lot of grass types, not every team will have one. On such teams, you have to check breloom the traditional way, by absorbing sleep with fodder before bringing in a good breloom check.

"even neutral hits do some 30% plus"? Taking only that much from a neutral hit is terrific when the opponent HAS no super effective coverage, and has that neutral hit as their best option.

Right now, Heracross is just not going to perform well in OU-- with Talonflame, Aegislash, Kang, Blaziken, and Mawile as top offensive threats, Heracross's use as a defensive check is just completely irrelavent. This is a meta where the standard Steel/Bug type is Genesect, with a +1 Flamethrower that will decimate a physical tank Heracross. For Heracross to be good, a whole lot of these threats would have to get banned, and Pokemon like Breloom, Scizor, Landorus (I/T), and Terrakion would have to return to "top of the food chain" as offensive threats. If that doesn't happen, Heracross will never be able to truly show off its talents. However-- I actually foresee this happening in the long run; and even if OU never becomes that type of meta, UU might.

We'll see

 

[kellekion]

just curious has someone tried to breed bone rush on heracross yet?

 

[Quinten]

That's not a bad idea, but in that case you don't want to be compromising your own defenses by using Close Combat. This sounds like a scenario where Arm Thrust is probably a much better choice.

I prefer brick break instead of arm thrust, 'cause it can crush down protect and screen-moves

 

[Jaroda]

Bullet Punch is rarely Scizor's go-to move. Just use some prediction. While Breloom now gets screwed by a whole lot of grass types, not every team will have one. On such teams, you have to check breloom the traditional way, by absorbing sleep with fodder before bringing in a good breloom check.

"even neutral hits do some 30% plus"? Taking only that much from a neutral hit is terrific when the opponent HAS no super effective coverage, and has that neutral hit as their best option.

Right now, Heracross is just not going to perform well in OU-- with Talonflame, Aegislash, Kang, Blaziken, and Mawile as top offensive threats, Heracross's use as a defensive check is just completely irrelavent. This is a meta where the standard Steel/Bug type is Genesect, with a +1 Flamethrower that will decimate a physical tank Heracross. For Heracross to be good, a whole lot of these threats would have to get banned, and Pokemon like Breloom, Scizor, Landorus (I/T), and Terrakion would have to return to "top of the food chain" as offensive threats. If that doesn't happen, Heracross will never be able to truly show off its talents. However-- I actually foresee this happening in the long run; and even if OU never becomes that type of meta, UU might.

We'll see

Forgive me but why is Heracross a poor match for Aegislash, Mawile or Kangaskhan? This is why I really think Hera needs Earthquake. Kings Shield doesn't even lower his attack if he uses that move. Aegislash is boned by it, and Blaziken dare not switch into it. And Blaze needs a Sword Dance to OHKO +1 Hera with Flare Blitz. Hera resists Sucker Punch so how much does that do? Even better it fails when you try to Bulk Up and ED takes Mawile out and Pin Missler should be enough for Kangaskhan right? So sure if you just want to use 4 attacks then you might as well use CC (although Revenge is just as strong if you're going second). But I still say Bulk Up with EQ/Rock Blast/Pin Missle is most effect in this meta. If you just wanted 4 attacks and to be a wall breaker you may as well put enough into attack to one shot specific threats like Intimidate Gyarados

 

[Chou Toshio]

If you read the discussion, you'll see I was referring to Heracross as a bulky tank role, able to switch into key enemy physical attackers and swing back with punishing force. The key is that it needs Pokemon it can switch into. Even if it can beat those threats 1 on 1, it can't switch into them nearly as well, which means it is much less effective in this wall/tank role that was being discussed.

The reason we were discussing such a role is because Heracross is too slow to really sweep. I guess with Bulk Up it would have a shot as long as you get rid of any Pokemon that potentially have Psychic or Flying attacks, but with such low speed and zero form of recovery, it's probably not sweeping that far.

 

[Jaroda]

If you read the discussion, you'll see I was referring to Heracross as a bulky tank role, able to switch into key enemy physical attackers and swing back with punishing force. The key is that it needs Pokemon it can switch into. Even if it can beat those threats 1 on 1, it can't switch into them nearly as well, which means it is much less effective in this wall/tank role that was being discussed.

The reason we were discussing such a role is because Heracross is too slow to really sweep. I guess with Bulk Up it would have a shot as long as you get rid of any Pokemon that potentially have Psychic or Flying attacks, but with such low speed and zero form of recovery, it's probably not sweeping that far.

No I completely agree about the bulky tank role 100%. But you still didn't explain why those non fire pokemon you mentioned were were a poor match for Heracross. Bulk Up or not the guy needs Earthquake and with it I don't really see why he fears Aegislash or Mawile unless they're already +6, which is is a moot point.

 

[Chou Toshio]

No I completely agree about the bulky tank role 100%. But you still didn't explain why those non fire pokemon you mentioned were were a poor match for Heracross. Bulk Up or not the guy needs Earthquake and with it I don't really see why he fears Aegislash or Mawile unless they're already +6, which is is a moot point.

I did explain why. To be a successful physical tank, you have to be able to SWITCH INTO the major physical offensive threats. Hera can beat many of those 1 on 1 (like using EQ on Aegislash), but are they Pokemon it can SWITCH INTO consistently?

252+ Atk (custom) Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 120-142 (32.96 - 39.01%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 148-175 (40.65 - 48.07%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 213-252 (58.51 - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^Mega Kang's Return, including the baby hit

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Heracross: 196-232 (53.84 - 63.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Blaziken-- not going there

I knew that you didn't understand the point/discussion when you said "Blaziken can't switch into it"-- which is totally irrelavent. If you're a physical offensive Tank, YOU have to be able to switch into THEM-- which is something Heracross clearly can't do.

My point was that if the top physical sweepers in the metagame were things like Scizor, Landorus (I/T), Breloom, Terrakion, Garchomp, etc., Heracross would be a pretty damn good metagame pick. With all those Pokemon as pretty minor threats, Heracross' tanking ability can't really shine.