Dungeons and Dragons a venial sin?

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Yes, this is somewhat troll thread, but it is an anecdotal recollection of a real event. I was out with a Catholic young adult group last night. I was discussing how some woman at an All Saints Day party mentioned she was into Dungeons and Dragons and other role-playing games. Another woman overheard this, and she mentioned that Dungeons and Dragons was a "venial sin" without any elaboration. (She is a slightly older than I am, a person who attends daily Mass, dresses modestly (she for instance always wears skirts below the knees), type the of person who doesn't attend night clubs or drinks, abstains from meat on all Fridays, not just during Lent, vocally pro-life on her Facebook page, and is very pious; but she is of a naturally cheerful disposition and certainly not miserable from practicing her faith. This is not a caricature of her, gossip, or an exaggeration of her religiosity, but an honest description for the purposes of providing relevant contextual information.) That remark strained my credulity, and she had some booklet with her than listed numerous venial sins, and with my own eyes, I saw "Dungeons and Dragons" listed (I did not see any of the other sins listed). My mind was immediately thinking "you gotta be shitting me!" although I did not say that for obvious reasons; I thought that seemed to be the material listed in a Chick Tract or from other fundamentalist source. I said with levity that the Catholic Church was persecuting nerds, and said that the notion that playing Dungeons and Dragons is be a venial sin is even more of a theological mystery than the Trinity or Transubstantiation. Of course, that was not the official position of the Catholic Church; it was merely stated as a sin in a litany of sins from book.

This seems like the thing that would seems so ludicrous for almost anyone, especially young irreligious people and skeptics, that they would regard this as an example of the ostensible absurdity of religious morals that it would deem playing some seemly innocuous fantasy game a sin or a direct threat to one's spiritual life.

---
My purpose is not to make fun of the Church or that lady, but just to recount on that experience. It really seems too funny not to talk about it.

 

[JimBob]

Well, some people consider reading Harry Potter a sin. Some people consider playing Pokemon a sin. Some people just believe weird things, you learn to ignore it.

 

[Hulavuta]

The main idea behind it being a sin is because it has to deal with magic, wizards, witches, fantasy monsters, demons, etc. The same goes for Harry Potter. The issue is that it is mostly a bit of a misunderstanding. I've read Harry Potter and a lot of "objectionable material" and there is nothing really objectionable about it. Good and evil is pretty well defined and evil loses in the end, and there's a clear sense of morality in the good guys. The main issue that objectors might have is that they are using "magical powers" which I agree probably would be very worrying if it were to happen in real life...but that's the thing. It's not real life. It's a fantasy world, and having magical powers is completely normal within the rules of that world. Although fiction does exist as a way to explore your imagination and escape real life for a while, most people are able to tell the difference between reality and fiction.

I was actually not allowed to read Harry Potter when I was younger, along with being taught that Dungeons and Dragons was wrong, and when I saw your thread, Calm_Mind_Latias, I literally got up to talk to my mother about it. I basically asked her: "When I was younger, you didn't want me to read Harry Potter, but when I got older and just started doing it (for school, for example) you didn't have a problem with it." She said that it was because young people are much more easily influenced, and she didn't want me to get that sort of stuff in my head. I told her the stuff I mentioned in the first paragraph, but it turned out what she really had a problem with was it becoming an obsession, and not necessarily completely a religious objection. She mentioned people cosplaying as characters and showing up to midnight releases and that they were fans with an almost, well, religious, devotion. I love my mom, but I feel like this was a bit of a misunderstanding on her part. I don't think there is anything wrong with dressing up as characters and I don't see how going to a midnight release is any different than going anywhere else with your friends. (I wanted to go to an XY release...if I had any friends ;>_>) Of course, too much of anything to the point of obsession is bad, but I feel like that is the exception rather than the norm. Most people are able to enjoy things in a healthy amount. Now that I'm older, she said she's fine with me liking whatever I want, because I'm mature enough to understand what is too much and not become obsessed with anything.

This seems like the thing that would seems so ludicrous for almost anyone, especially young irreligious people and skeptics, that they would regard this as an example of the apparent absurdity of religious morals that it would deem playing some seemly innocuous fantasy game a sin or a direct threat to one's spiritual life.

You hit the nail right on the head with this one. About 90% of the time, a religious objection to any sort of game or other fiction is just a misunderstanding. This definitely makes most religious people look sort of out of touch with the real world. I feel like if religious people want to be taken seriously, we need to make an effort to make sure that we understand exactly what something actually is before objecting to it. Maybe then, we wouldn't be just seen as "those weirdos" and we'd actually be relatable to the average person...

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

You hit the nail right on the head with this one. About 90% of the time, a religious objection to any sort of game or other fiction is just a misunderstanding. This definitely makes most religious people look sort of out of touch with the real world. I feel like if religious people want to be taken seriously, we need to make an effort to make sure that we understand exactly what something actually is before objecting to it. Maybe then, we wouldn't be just seen as "those weirdos" and we'd actually be relatable to the average person...

I did indeed concede that it is mostly likely a sin if it one takes it literally (as it seems that no really does) or if it consumes one life that one is deprived of their spiritual life or other aspects of their life, but the latter could apply to almost anything and is quite dependent on the person relation to that particular activity. Actually, she just mentioned that Dungeons and Dragons was a sin as it would seem she just recalled what the booklet said, but did not provide any explanation as she did not know what Dungeons and Dragons is in any way. (She is also the type of person who couldn't name "Ash Ketchum" or "Misty" if I showed a picture of them, but most people in the group couldn't do that either, but I mentioned this to show how they are not attuned to this aspect of popular culture.) It seems that the Catholic Church is shrewd enough not to put it in the Catechism (and obviously the Church does not really believe it) where one could easily cite it and make its moral teachings an object of contempt.

 

[moonbound]

That's like saying chess is a sin because it simulates real war. I'm a Catholic too but some of these people are just dumb.

 

[vonFiedler]

Hey don't joke

Lots of people used to be dead fucking serious about the dangers of d&d. Crimes were given farfetched associations with it, the media made a big stink about it, there was even more than one movie about how bad d&d is, and that's not even counting this movie, which would have been much more effective anti-d&d propoganda.

On the bright side, no one really seems to remember we ever even acted like that. It's almost like the mass media was just using fear tactics to drive up ratings the whole time. Glad they learned their lesson.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Most of it was helped along by Pat Pulling, whose son played DnD and also happened to commit suicide. She spurred along most of the frenzy, which was all later debunked. I have one of the pamphlets, courtesy of /TG/ which ideally you can see (I am not used to the new Smogon at all)

 

[Shiruba]

Magic, huh...?

^ Slightly related, though Catholicism =/= Jehovah's Witnesses.

That said, there are lots of similarities to them, and they're both Christian sects - from what I have observed, JW's are more or less a more strict Catholic church with a few more rules thrown in. Magic, however, has long been associated with witches and the devil's followers [read: Witch Burnings], and it's more Christianity's adaptation or generally "going soft," if you will, that moves them away from these practices, not unlike slavery and treating women like possessions [though some people still do the latter in the First World]. As far as I have read and can presume, magic aside from God's own power might lead people to believe that He is not all-powerful, or that there are others that share his might - thus potentially leading to dissent, as the Christian God is typically portrayed as having absolute power over all, to trump any other power in the universe, and any rival that competes for His glory is easily some devil's servant, as Lucifer also competed for God's glory before he was cast out of Heaven.

While my mother never withheld any interest that wasn't illegal for my age/at all [I have never had any real interest in subjects such as pornography], and we did indeed bond over Harry Potter and I was more than allowed to play Pokemon. She's also fairly "liberal" for a conservative Mormon, and even told me that if I turned out to be a homosexual, that she would love me anyway and let me stay in her house - which is pretty huge, to be honest, though it shouldn't be. She also mentioned that she'd help if I ended up making a baby out of wedlock, but she did that, too, so I would hope she wouldn't condemn me for it. I don't think I'll ever need to accept either of those gestures as I'm not homosexual and haven't been sexually active in a while, but it's still quite nice to know.

However, a lot of Christians are not like my mum, as is shown by people abandoning their own children for revealing their sexual orientation. Showing interest in subjects that could prove to show wavering faith in God's overarching power or in some "devilish witchcraft." Nowadays they would probably be thought of as weirdos or psychos, even though most of the first world also believes in some form of the "One True God." Based on your description of this woman, she seems to be quite the fundamentalist, which would make sense given her interpretations of such things. It really goes based on which parts of the Bible you ignore and which parts you ascribe to.

 

[Mulligan]

Hulavuta said everything I wanted to say for the most part.

Wonder what C.S. Lewis (The Chronicles of Narnia) and J.R.R. Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings) would have to say about this. Since, you know, they were both devout Christians ;/ (C.S. Lewis being a former Atheist)

 

[v]

the reason d&d is a sin is twofold. firstly, it is a roleplaying game, which adds an element of immersion that is absent from other fictional mediums. video games did not exist for some time, and while other non-video rpgs and war games existed prior to d&d, it was very groundbreaking in its approach to fantasy. you were not just watching a mighty wizard shoot fire -- you were him.

furthermore, d&d has a heavy focus on the occult. the fear of the occult in christianity comes from the ten commandments when god decrees that no other god shall come before him. d&d includes a number of gods in its player handbook for players to worship, and magic derives its power from these deities.

so in a nutshell the problem is that d&d (and most fantasy rpgs, pokemon can even be construed to be this) is an occult worship simulator where you gain more power by killing in your god's name

 

[vonFiedler]

The problem is that analysis is greatly twisting things to an extent that no seasoned player would ever really feel that way. I shouldn't have to break my back explaining why the first reason is fallacious; this is now a pretty well worn argument in our society and government studies clearly show that people can tell the difference between fantasy and reality (and will continue to show that as new studies are ordered and the old studies are shoved next to the Ark of the Covenant).

Second, little of this occult is actually "occult" in the various worlds of D&D. These are worlds where magic is everyday and the pantheons of gods are worshipped mostly openly. So it's not really "simulating" occult worship because it has nothing to do with real world occult worship. The few legit occult elements are usually villainous. As for "no other gods", it's fiction. The pop fiction world is not a secret minefield of golden calves, no matter how many baptists want it to be.

Also gaining power by killing in a god's name applies to a small number of players and they probably wouldn't even see it that way. I'm kind of a radical in seeing d&d as this horrible meta-narrative of self-righteous murder, but again that's not most players.

 

[Yuri]

That woman's reaction doesn't surprise me at all. Fantasy settings have been attacked since... I don't know, forever? Mostly because of the reasons stated previously (mythical creatures, worshipping other gods, magic). It is true that some people become obsessed and do stupid shit like those "you die in the game you die for real" stories I'm sure everyone knows about. They are the exception rather than the rule. You don't suddenly see a motion to stop driving cars because a raging lunatic ran over 30 people at a bus stop.

The problem I have is that in the crazy driver example, it is always "he was under the influence of drugs/stress/etc". When someone is killed over D&D, the tone changes to "the game influences people to do evil things" while it is clear the murderer cannot tell reality from fantasy and would have probably done it over chess too, or is really just a fucked-up individual in general.

That said, I wouldn't judge that woman too harshly either as she didn't go on a rant or anything. She probably just "heard it is bad" and went with it. She is neither the only nor the last to have done so.

 

[mattplex]

That woman's reaction doesn't surprise me at all. Fantasy settings have been attacked since... I don't know, forever? Mostly because of the reasons stated previously (mythical creatures, worshipping other gods, magic).

Ya basically the other "holy books" don't want any competition.

 

[noobcubed]

Ya basically the other "holy books" don't want any competition.

Kinda tangentially related, but I read this on the ever-reliable Wikipedia, from its article on the rather brilliant but mostly unknown television sketch show Monkey Dust:

"He [Clive Pringle, a recurring character in the series] arrives home (sometimes months or even years) late and when questioned by his wife as to his whereabouts, his excuses swiftly collapse into the plots of well-known fiction. Examples include The Lord of the Rings, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Dune, 24, a specified episode of The A-Team, the nursery rhyme Humpty Dumpty, the song "Hotel California" by the Eagles, and even The Holy Bible..."

Yes, that's right kids. Wikipedia flat-out stated that the Bible is a work of fiction, no more to be taken seriously than Harry Potter. Perhaps Richard Dawkins has been editing the page - I read somewhere that he is rumoured to regularly edit his own article to remove anything he sees as slanderous.

 

[Nerdking]

-sighs- Why? D&D is the thing that nerdy kids like me do when it's late and we're all together in one room, and have dice handy. Seriously, 90% of any good game of Dungeons and Dragons is just people rolling unorthodox dice and talking in funny voices, and attacking the darkness with magic missile.

 

[TrueSoprano]

Am I the only one that read "venereal sin"?