BH Parental Bond Policy Decision

[verbatim]

At this point in time, there exist several competing opinions as to how to proceed with Balanced Hackmon's ban list, specifically in regards to Parental Bond. To that end, I'm opening up the issue to group discussion, with a final decision to be made Monday December 9th.

For those unaware, most of the controversy surrounding Parental Bond can be traced to its use in tandem with Super Fang an Night Shade, 2hkoing a supermajority of mons regardless of user. On a lesser but also important note, Parental Bond also happens to be the best straight damage boosting ability in the tier, leading some to suggest it could be overcenteralized in its own right.

The most options brought up during the last discussion on the issue include,

Ban Parental Bond All Together

Ban Super Fang, Night Shade, and Seismic Toss

Do Nothing (this wasn't brought up, but I found it only fair to leave the status quo in as an option)


However other options may be considered if enough explanation and support is provided.

 

[Redless]

This all seems rather hasty in my opinion; with many of the better players not having played extensively in gen 6, I would think that more time is in order. dec. 9th is way to early.

 

[MagicMissingno]

It's all the benefits of a choice band and a choice specs combined without the restriction of choice locking! Slap it on your favorite sweeper and you're good to go!

 

[E4 Flint]

Calling for an outright ban on Parental Bond is hasty and unfounded. The best bet for me would be to have the generally considered moves Sacred Fire, Super Fang and Night Shade banned with the use of parental bond (not outright by themselves). I am of the opinion that Parental Bond can still provide value to the tier and be a welcome addition to BH from gen 6. Allowing some time for it to settle without the three moves would also allow time for opposing sets to be thought up of and used, thus increasing the variability and creativity of the tier. A suspect test with Parental Bond without the aforementioned three moves would, in my opinion, be the best way to go ahead with this.

This option was not strictly mentioned above because the second option seems to suggest that Super Fang and the others need to be banned outright (i.e. with any ability).

 

[Redless]

Sacred Fire, Super Fang and Night Shade

IMO sacred fire is not broken with PB. Replace it with seismic toss. Otherwise, as I have said, we should wait before banning.

 

[E4 Flint]

Also it is notable that the way the vote is framed, there are more options that do not support a ban for Parental Bond, which may spread out the votes. The absolute majority may be a ban of the ability overall, but it would be useful to keep in mind that the other three options when combined would reflect the people who do not want it banned, rather than individually.

 

[Mattiator]

While Mega-Khan constantly wrecks me and I honestly expect it to be fully banned eventually, right now Super Fang and Night Shade are truly broken when coupled with Parental Bond, and a restriction should be in place ASAP regarding the usage of those moves on Mega-Khan.

 

[Adrian Marin]

While most will agree that pbond is not broken without those 3 moves, how would banning shade fang and toss solve the main problem? That's like banning flare blitz and hjk only so that blaziken can reside in OU.

 

[E4 Flint]

Because

While most will agree that pbond is not broken without those 3 moves

If something is not broken, it should not be banned. It is pretty simple.

Edit: Also be honest, Blaze is hardly banned for having those two moves alone. It has been definitively shown. That is not the case here since there has not been a period of time Parental Bond has been used without those three moves available.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Because
If something is not broken, it should not be banned. It is pretty simple.

Super Fang, Night Shade and Seismic Toss don't deserve a ban then.

EDIT: We should really focus on the main problem, and that problem is Pbond, banning 3 moves in place for 1 ability will only stop the OP trait, but do 3 moves really deserve a ban when Pbond is the real problem?

 

[E4 Flint]

I agree, they only should not be used with Parental Bond. I was under the impression that's what the second one really suggests.

 

[GoldenSandslash15]

It's all the benefits of a choice band and a choice specs combined without the restriction of choice locking! Slap it on your favorite sweeper and you're good to go!

Plus Serene Grace!

Oh, snd the ability to get past Sturdy/Substitutes.

Having said that, I don't play BH, so I have no idea whether or not this is counterable. But I just wanted to make ALL of Parental Bond's advantages clear.

 

[E4 Flint]

Plus Serene Grace!

Oh, snd the ability to get past Sturdy/Substitutes.

Having said that, I don't play BH, so I have no idea whether or not this is counterable. But I just wanted to make ALL of Parental Bond's advantages clear.

In BH where sturdy is primarily on Shedinja, it does not purely get past it and even with the current set, a double burn would be required to get past a lum recycle shed.

I think this thread is about balanced hackmons alone, although verbatim will correct me if it is for all the tiers (in which case I don't think Kanga gets super fang anyway)

Also technically it is not Serene Grace.. it depends on the chance of the move. The maximum rate of Charge Beam, for instance, with 70% would be 90% with P.Bond and 100% with Serene Grace. This may sound like a nitpicky technicality but I have seen 4 P.Bond Sacred Fire's (8 chances) go with no burn before..

Basically I don't think it will have much of a damaging impact should the primary used move, Sacred, be removed, if at all.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Banning Parental Bond should be the obvious choice. Banning 3 moves for the sake of keeping 1 ability that a lot of people are unhappy with is quite ridiculous. It is pretty broken when you think about how moves such as Power Up Punch are taken advantage of to boost both your primary hit and secondary hit. It detroys subs, sashes, sturdy, and it's obvious some pokemon (for example Cloyster) will not be seeing as much use with Parental Bond in play. With moves such as Sucker Punch or any priority/high power move doing +1/2 damage is insanely good, and gives immense sweeping potential. Especially with balanced BST mons like Kangaskhan, which could run bulky, fast, or full offense and is backed up in attacking capabilities with Parental Bond and takes full advantage of moves like Power Up Punch.
I don't like tons of pokemon, abilities, moves, or combinations of those three having to be banned, but when an ability increases your offensive capabilities by quite a large margin and allows you to bypass moves, items, and abilities (substitutes, sashes, and sturdy), there is an obvious problem.

 

[E4 Flint]

It is not banning the moves entirely, only with the specified ability.

It is for Balanced Hackmons where there are myriad walls and 252 evs in every stat making every mon bulkier than ever.

Also "lot of people" is blurry because at the moment I see 10 people for a ban and 10 people who do not want a Parental Bond ban and prefer a different option.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

By a lot of people I just meant a majority, lol. It is winning by 4 votes after all. Also, I know it's Balanced Hackmons, but when you slap Parental Bond on an extremely strong Pokemon like, I don't know, Mega Heracross or Mewtwo, then you have a slaughter fest even with walls. I did misunderstand the 3 moves being banned, as now you corrected me as they are banned when paired with Parental Bond only.

 

[E4 Flint]

Here is a replay showing Parental Bond being used without the combo of Super Fang and Night Shade.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-67751328

While it may not be the most optimal set, I foresee it being no more unmanageable than what is already in the tier.

E: Coincidentally this explains why I believe it is not broken because it is on one of the better offensive mons in the game, Mewtwo Mega X

E2: This replay is not old; in fact, the match completed 5 minutes ago.

Also keep in mind, I have absolutely no bias towards this subject. I do not use Parental Bond myself. I have spent time finding team counters to try and stop Parental Bond and on the whole, have been reasonably successful. I am fairly neutral on either side of the subject apart from a possibility of banning the use of Super Fang and Night Shade. I am however opposed to the banning of something without a proper test or check on what the possible impact might be. Furthermore, though I personally do not use it, I can see the appeal of using Parental Bond; it is unique and fun (when not broken), and would be a good draw for someone who would like to get into the tier of Balanced Hackmons, and I would like the profile of the tier to increase. Finally, though there may be evidence to support banning the ability in future which I will not debate, I find the outright ban of an ability with no conclusive evidence wrong. A ban of this nature, in my opinion, sets a bad precedent for the future.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

A ban of this nature, in my opinion, sets a bad precedent for the future.

I agree with this. I am not against or for it, as I don't play BH too often. I just wanted to spark more influential and factual arguments about it's banning, as it's the winning poll option, since no one has given substantial reason for why they want it to be banned.

 

[Adrian Marin]

We all know Pbond cannot be countered reliably with those 3 moves (it's still more fairto ban pbond instead of 3 moves) I don't suggest voting for the "do nothing option". Unless of course, you all want to play an unbalanced metagame full of uncounterable Pbond Pokemon.

 

[Kit Kasai]

I think to start we should look at the previous ability bans. Wonder guard and OHKOs were obvious bans because they were too over centralizing in hackmons. Same with hp/pp. Imagine a hp belly drum gigas with espeed and shadow sneak.

As for parental bond, I'd agree that it's powerful, but I don't see it being over centralizing. I've seen plenty of successful high level teams without it. I've tried out a pbond set before on my team, and I think it's somewhat counterable with proper prediction. The 2KO ability for parental bond serves somewhat as a downside, because you can switch in something to kill it.

I think having a suspect test without super fang/shade/toss would be useful. We could probably see if it's really pbond itself that's op, or just the combination of moves.

 

[E4 Flint]

Here is a transcript of me (Testflon) and Adrian, who seems to be the prime proponent of the ban:

Testflon: adrian just tell me this
Testflon: where is the evidence
Testflon: that it is banned
Testflon: without the three moves
Testflon: can you show me a replay?
Testflon: can you show me stats?
Testflon: can you show me where you were ripped apart by a pbond without the three moves?
Testflon: *it ought to be
Inverse Adrian: I already admitted to you
Inverse Adrian: It's not OP with those 3 moves
Testflon: and if something is not op
Testflon: why should it get banned
Inverse Adrian: The argument I have now is the only good argument I have left
Inverse Adrian: No, because of what people perceive to think
Testflon: and what is that?
Inverse Adrian: That these 3 moves will be banned outright
Inverse Adrian: If they pick that option
Testflon: I see
Testflon: so you are saying
Inverse Adrian: And everyone knows 3 beats 1
Testflon: your only argument
Testflon: is to use semantics about a supposed outright ban on three moves
Testflon: that is poor


and later...
Testflon: you have not named one single reason
Testflon: it would be broken
Testflon: without the three moves
Testflon: a weak argument about a power boost
Inverse Adrian: That's because
Testflon: that's about it
Inverse Adrian: It's simply not broken
Inverse Adrian: Without those 3 moves
Testflon: if it is not broken
Testflon: it should not be banned
Testflon: /endthread

I feel that the poll options have been worded poorly starting from the title which seems to apply parental bond for any tier not just BH.

The correct thing to do is at least have a suspect test without the three moves. I am strongly against a pure ban with little to no evidence other than personal preference and an unwillingness to not have to face 'another problem.'

 

[Adrian Marin]

Can you provide evidence that Verbatim meant for Shade Toss Fang to be banned only with Pbond?

EDIT: Also, banning those 3 moves with only Pbond seems complicated and hard for newer players, banning Pbond alone is far more simple.

 

[E4 Flint]

If he comes online we shall ask him. However

At this point in time, there exist several competing opinions as to how to proceed with Balanced Hackmon's ban list, specifically in regards to Parental Bond. To that end, I'm opening up the issue to group discussion, with a final decision to be made Monday December 9th.

For those unaware, most of the controversy surrounding Parental Bond can be traced to its use in tandem with Super Fang an Night Shade, 2hkoing a supermajority of mons regardless of user. On a lesser but also important note, Parental Bond also happens to be the best straight damage boosting ability in the tier, leading some to suggest it could be overcenteralized in its own right.

However other options may be considered if enough explanation and support is provided.

This is not true on any other ability. It follows logically that the ability that causes this with these moves is the problem. Therefore the moves on this ability will deserve a ban. Furthermore, in our discussion with verbatim prior to posting this poll, I believe that's what was agreed upon although I don't have a transcript of that. I can save those from now on if you want, because there were many people there who admitted a suspect would be the right thing to do.

 

[verbatim]

Right now the second option is in total, not just with parental bond. That ban would go under other.

 

[TheCommadore]

Of the three options the first two are similar. Which of the 2 somebody prefers mostly depends on how they feel about complex bans. The main arguement is if we should implement them to minimize the impact of bans on the tier or not to keep the rule set simplistic. In my mind the option to keep the status quo is not much of an option at all. Even if many people have not caught on to how incredibly powerful parent bond can be, with the right pokemon and set it still is capable of 2hko'ing and wall breaking the entire tier (even shed if lady luck is on your side).

Personally I am for a ban of the ability itself and not the the enabling moves themselves, it is a much simpler rule to explain to newcomers and we have significant precedent for banning only abilities (and ohko moves) in the tier