Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[Skyblade12]

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I run Rocky helmet on Garchomp and Ferrothorn because knocking off 25% of an opponents health while taking damage I would have already taken is fucking AMAZING. I like how you are ignoring the fact that like 90% of OU right now(totally made that up), consists of Physical attackers. I love rocky helmet, and would use it over leftovers any day on Ferrothorn.

Are you forgetting about another huge threat called....Talonflame? Don't have the right check to that pokemon, and bam, your team lost 3-4 pokemon to a CB 252 atk STAB Brave Bird. Throw in a garchomp, and you have a dead bird. It's not SOLELY for Mega Kanga that we use rocky helmet, but we do get the warm fuzzies when one pops up.

Yeah, it is used on Garchomp and Ferrothorn. Absolutely. Though, again, it is not the "only good choice" on them. And it is only viable on them because they have the bulk to weather multiple hits, and they have Rough Skin / Iron Barbs. As I pointed out, you don't, and never would, run it on either of them to handle a single Pokémon.

The post I was quoting was arguing that it would be a good move to make it a go-to item on everyone. That was why my points about it on the average Pokémon came up. It is not a good item, for pretty much any Pokémon, except to use that Pokémon for killing Mega-Kangaskhan via attrition. I think I worded it poorly, sorry about that.

 

[LordRandomness]

Thats Hilarious, but it still should be banned.

I'm not really interested in saying "OHH IT SHOULD STAY IN OU" since I mostly just float around the forums posting 90% shitty gimmicks. I just think there are more ways of dealing with Mega Kanga than people realize.

- Flame Body as mentioned is good, mostly in conjunction with other methods but by itself in a pinch. It's useful outside of Mega Kanga, doesn't take up a moveslot or itemslot, and is on powerful pokemon like Volcarona.

- Destiny Bond puts it in a bind if a faster Pokemon uses it since Sucker Punch will fail against Destiny Bond and a slower attack will bring both Pokemon down. Plus on the next turn it can't Sucker Punch because Destiny Bond is still active. This guarantees the Destiny Bond user will either trade with Mega Kanga (Non-Mega slot traded for Mega slot), get off a free attack, or force Kanga out. As such, I am comfortable in saying that Gengar is a solid check to Mega Kanga (not a counter since it dies horribly to Crunch, but none of Mega Kanga's other attacks can touch it on a switch-in making it a good check)

- Anything faster that can phaze it puts it in a tough spot, since using Sucker Punch will fail if phazing is used. Noivern is a decent example of this, correctly predicting the opposing attack will lead to either a successful phaze or a Focus Blast KO

- Similarly, anything faster with good priority and KO potential can duel it. Infernape can cause Sucker Punch to fail with a faster Mach Punch or use Close Combat to KO if a slower move is predicted, for example (it additionally resists Sucker Punch which means it may be able to simply force Kanga out with CC depending on the situation). That makes it a pretty solid check too.

- Sucker Punch predicted is a free switch-in, which can let you bring in things even if PuP has already been used. People seem to be treating it as practically Extremespeed in here.

- I know people don't like Kee Berry, but it's really quite effective against Mega Kanga, taking advantage of the fact that it has to use a weak attack first before hitting out with a strong one. Slapping one on Volcarona might sound completely stupid, but since it ALSO speed ties Mega Kanga and has access to a speed boost from Quiver Dance as well as Flame Body for a very solid burn chance it has decent potential for success. Not sure if Moltres would be any good, but it could hold the berry as well which would trigger Acrobatics on it.

Do you really want to rely on luck to beat it?

Using Focus Blast for coverage doesn't have much better odds than this, and Flame Body wouldn't be the only mechanism the switching in pokemon would have to deal with Mega Kanga. It would just be another potential thing.

 

[Atomsage]

It leaves you without a response to hard counters such as any relatively bulky ghost.

Guess that's why it wasn't banned from the very start of the metagame.

Oh wait it has Scrappy. Don't be so quick to hit the Mega button...

 

[Goodbar]

No. Cofagrigus is the most reliable defensive check to kangaskhan that can get it burned and survive no matter what, even on the switch-in.

Reasons why Cofagrigus is legit

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 156-186 (48.7 - 58.1%)
From there, no more of the second hit from mega kanga, which greatly weakens it. Not to mention it should be burned after the first turn.
And if you did happen to let it get up a PuP:
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 309-366 (96.5 - 114.3%)
You're sorta fucked :D
But then again, if you're not packing a sableye, you're pretty fucked either way when a mega kanga is at +2.
However, I'm not sure if after the first crunch mummy immediately activates and you get to avoid the second, or if you have to take both and then mummy kicks in.

+2 252+ Atk burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 103-122 (32.1 - 38.1%)
Mega kanga ain't getting past cofagrigus when its burned. Ever.
And cof can take pursuit and stuff quite well, so it won't die too easily.
Also:
252+ Atk Kangaskhan (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 22-26 (6.87 - 8.12%) -- 9HKO at best
after which
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 234-276 (73.1 - 86.2%)
Still fails to ko after leftovers. From there you can burn it. You'll die, but mega kanga will have been essentially dealt with.

The only instance where cofagrigus MAY not completely counter is when kang stays scrappy, PuP's to get to +1, then mega evolves and goes for crunch, which btw, cofagrigus still survives and can then burn.
Think of it like this:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 156-186 (48.7 - 58.1%)
Cofagrigus switches in, takes 51% worst case scenario after leftovers.
The next crunch does
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 104-124 (32.5 - 38.7%)
and then it's burned. so after leftovers, MAX ROLL BOTH TIMES, you're still at 17%
The next crunch does
252+ Atk burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 52-62 (16.2 - 19.3%)
From there, if you survive, you can just rest up and the kanga is crippled for the rest of the match.
You have to be INCREDIBLY UNLUCKY to lose to mega kanga, even on the switch in.
Now, let's look at best case scenario
48.7+32.5=81.2
81.2-14(leftovers)=67.2
That means you'll be alive with 32.8% to take the burned crunch.

So after the two crunches, you can be anywhere around 17%-32%, and you have to be above 20% to take the incoming burned crunch and survive to get a rest off.
That's pretty darn good odds if you ask me.
You don't exactly have to stay in either, any decently bulky pokemon like garchomp can come in on a burned crunch and start doing stuff while you can save cofagrigus for death fodder.
And did I mention this is SWITCHING IN?

ok you have a point but it's also cofagrigus who would never be used outside the threat of mega kanga lol (which maybe you were hinting at but hey). which i guess is a good point as to how hard it is to actually counter properly.

 

[Shroomisaur]

This thread is only a few hours old and already it's spinning in circles. There's not a single good argument against banning this thing, and it's the same old stuff from the Kanga discussion thread. A bunch of unviable sets (lolflamebody/rockyhelmeteverything) or pokemon just to "check" Mega Kangaskahn, and claiming these few things make it "balanced". I would counter these things arguments but... many people including myself already have. I feel like I have to copy & paste all of my posts here just to defeat Round #2 of silly reasoning. ~_~;

This thing needs needs to go. /thread

 

[SuperMeep]

Khan will be banned, not because of centralization, (thats not why we ban mons) but because of these reasons:

A.) Its speed tier is 100, severely limiting what would counter outside of priority, meaning that what would counter it has to faster than it, requiring a scarf or priority to survive.
B.) The above, combined with it's bulk and sheer power means that a lot of frail fast mons that out speed it, such as Keldeo, can't 0HKO it thanks to it's bulk, and are destroyed when it hits back. Its power and bulk, combined with it's speed make to too much to be revenged easily, or even just taken down.
C.) To revenge it, you mush sacrifice something to do damage, then finish it off with priority, or switch in one of it's counters, Confagrious, dusclops, or whatever, because it will kill them with ease if the don't switch in safely. To remove it from the game literally requires you to sacrifice something. Even with the rocky helmet sets (which have been around forever, seriously, do some research) you still have to sacrifce a mon to kill it, with something ferrothorn, dying so khan can take a bunch of damage from hitting thorn, then being finished by priority.
D.) For example, one can pack a threat that is checked by the same things a M-Khan, and once say, Rocky helmet G-Chomp is dead along with Khan, that threat can sweep and win.

M-Banette's prankster destiny bond is awesome, cause i can pick and choose a mon to kill. Just gonna say it, even if this is the Khan thread.

Guess that's why it wasn't banned from the very start of the metagame.

Oh wait it has Scrappy...

And you a have a khan whos attacks BOUNCE off the def ghost, because of Khans terrible attack outside of Mega form. Normal Khan sucks, its attacks can't break ghost type walls like Dusclops, sableye and confagrious. Boing. Now your burned.

 

[Ace07x]

Mega khan is actually very easy to take out. If you just are prepared to neutralize physical threats on your team then you are prepared for mega khan. The reason mega gengar is different is because it can be simply switched in and have an extreme impact on the game. Mega khan is very easily neutralized by the current meta, and can easily stay in ou and everything will be fine

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I'm not really interested in saying "OHH IT SHOULD STAY IN OU" since I mostly just float around the forums posting 90% shitty gimmicks. I just think there are more ways of dealing with Mega Kanga than people realize.

- Flame Body as mentioned is good, mostly in conjunction with other methods but by itself in a pinch. It's useful outside of Mega Kanga, doesn't take up a moveslot or itemslot, and is on powerful pokemon like Volcarona.

- Destiny Bond puts it in a bind if a faster Pokemon uses it since Sucker Punch will fail against Destiny Bond and a slower attack will bring both Pokemon down. Plus on the next turn it can't Sucker Punch because Destiny Bond is still active. This guarantees the Destiny Bond user will either trade with Mega Kanga (Non-Mega slot traded for Mega slot), get off a free attack, or force Kanga out. As such, I am comfortable in saying that Gengar is a solid check to Mega Kanga (not a counter since it dies horribly to Crunch, but none of Mega Kanga's other attacks can touch it on a switch-in making it a good check)

- Anything faster that can phaze it puts it in a tough spot, since using Sucker Punch will fail if phazing is used. Noivern is a decent example of this, correctly predicting the opposing attack will lead to either a successful phaze or a Focus Blast KO

- Similarly, anything faster with good priority and KO potential can duel it. Infernape can cause Sucker Punch to fail with a faster Mach Punch or use Close Combat to KO if a slower move is predicted, for example (it additionally resists Sucker Punch which means it may be able to simply force Kanga out with CC depending on the situation). That makes it a pretty solid check too.

- Sucker Punch predicted is a free switch-in, which can let you bring in things even if PuP has already been used. People seem to be treating it as practically Extremespeed in here.

- I know people don't like Kee Berry, but it's really quite effective against Mega Kanga, taking advantage of the fact that it has to use a weak attack first before hitting out with a strong one. Slapping one on Volcarona might sound completely stupid, but since it ALSO speed ties Mega Kanga and has access to a speed boost from Quiver Dance as well as Flame Body for a very solid burn chance it has decent potential for success. Not sure if Moltres would be any good, but it could hold the berry as well which would trigger Acrobatics on it.



Using Focus Blast for coverage doesn't have much better odds than this, and Flame Body wouldn't be the only mechanism the switching in pokemon would have to deal with Mega Kanga. It would just be another potential thing.

It has ways to deal with it, but half of those are niche assets that a good percentage of teams won't have. Doesn't change the fact that Mega-kang smashes the other 99% of the tier.

I could list a bunch of ways for you to deal with Extremekiller Arceus in OU for example. Does that mean it's not broken because it has specialized ways to deal with it, yet it still smashes through the rest of the tier? (I know Arceus-Normal has other sets but pretend it doesn't for this example)

 

[Skyblade12]

This thread is only a few hours old and already it's spinning in circles. There's not a single good argument against banning this thing, and it's the same old stuff from the Kanga discussion thread. A bunch of unviable sets (lolflamebody/rockyhelmeteverything) or pokemon just to "check" Mega Kangaskahn, and claiming these few things make it "balanced". I would counter these things arguments but... many people including myself already have. I feel like I have to copy & paste all of my posts here just to defeat Round #2 of silly reasoning. ~_~;

This thing needs needs to go. /thread

I agree. Is there any way we could short-circuit this process? Or at least find someone with a good argument for it staying OU? Half of these seem like they aren't even trying.

And you a have a khan whos attacks BOUNCE off the def ghost, because of Khans terrible attack outside of Mega form. Normal Khan sucks, its attacks can't break ghost type walls like Dusclops, sableye and confagrious. Boing.

It doesn't matter. It got a Power-Up Punch off. Even with +1, it can then Mega-Evolve and Crunch. Dead Ghost.

 

[sidakarya]

Are you forgetting about another huge threat called....Talonflame? Don't have the right check to that pokemon, and bam, your team lost 3-4 pokemon to a CB 252 atk STAB Brave Bird. Throw in a garchomp, and you have a dead bird. It's not SOLELY for Mega Kanga that we use rocky helmet, but we do get the warm fuzzies when one pops up.

The difference being that Talonflame can be checked and countered with other, less gimmicky things with a semblance of reliability. And because of this, it doesn't require you to burden your item slot with an item, that you wouldn't have resorted to otherwise.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

You know...I'm sure that this thread isn't surprising in the slightest. If we're going to find out whether or not Mega Kangaskhan is truly threatening, then I say we look at a different part of a guideline we used with Mega Gengar. Remember the Support Clause? How about the Offense Clause? How does that go?

"A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."

Let's focus on this for a little bit. What do we know about Mega Kangaskhan? We know that her ability, Parental Bond, gives her the power of a Choice Band, the ability to break Subs and Sashes, she has 200 BP Seismic Tosses, WISH (how, how HOW and WHY!?), powerful and reliable moves like Return, Earthquake, Crunch, boosting moves that are exploited through Parental Bond (I'm looking at you, Power-Up Punch), decent bulk that is most definitely nothing to scoff at considering that nobody doubted Hydreigon's bulk in Gen V, and the ability to plow through even some prepared teams! It takes VERY specific Pokemon to stop her and, even then, they can't always stop her. Rocky Helmet sets grew more popular because of her, Sableye is used more often...not only could one argue that an entire metagame is being centralized around one Pokemon...which is ALWAYS a bad thing, it completely fills in what the Offensive Characteristic for an Uber Pokemon is. It CAN sweep through a significant portion of teams. It not only CAN, but it WILL if you don't pack one or two Pokemon SPECIFICALLY for her. If you really want to go far, one could possibly implement a similar system used for Sneasel's Little Cup Ban with three questions:

1. Is Mega Kangaskhan Broken?

I would argue that, because of the above reasons, Mega Kangaskhan is truly broken; giving even Uber Pokemon a run for their money is a startling suspition of its power in OU.

2. Is Mega Kangaskhan making OU not fun?

Though OU hasn't truly been made, I'm assuming Pokebank battling. Goodness, Mega Kangaskhan isn't making anything fun. To be honest, over centralizing makes battling boring. Teams become far too similar, nobody is allowed to experiment in fears of this Pokemon, the same Pokemon are always used and they become predictible for your opponent AND you when facing them. With that said, Mega Kangaskhan is definitely making battling not fun.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing OU?

For me, it made me take a break from battling. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'm sure that if it doesn't deter others from playing, it will magnetically pull them into a centralized metagame where you either use Mega Momma or prepare for it (I've seen entire teams dedicated to stopping Mega Kangaskhan...). Mega Kangaskhan should be quickbanned. If we held a Suspect Test, it'd most likely end up the same way anyways. We all know the strengths, we all know her ability to walk over her supposed Checks and Counters, and we all know that she has made playstyles more popular only for stopping her. I'm sure the proof is clear.

 

[Srn]

Mega khan is actually very easy to take out. If you just are prepared to neutralize physical threats on your team then you are prepared for mega khan. The reason mega gengar is different is because it can be simply switched in and have an extreme impact on the game. Mega khan is very easily neutralized by the current meta, and can easily stay in ou and everything will be fine

So you're saying you can prepare for any physical threat the metagame has to throw at your team and still be able to handle anything else perfectly fine?
Lolwut

 

[Ranevski]

Gyarados always had a 4x weakness, as well as no priority. Now tell me what you are going to do to kill Mkang, especially when it would easily have +2 sucker punch.

It's pretty clear you never played DPP, which is what I was talking about.

There's not a single good argument against banning this thing

No one has rebutted this post I made, but keep telling yourself that.

 

[SuperMeep]

I agree. Is there any way we could short-circuit this process? Or at least find someone with a good argument for it staying OU? Half of these seem like they aren't even trying.



It doesn't matter. It got a Power-Up Punch off. Even with +1, it can then Mega-Evolve and Crunch. Dead Ghost.

If you read our arguement, his moveset is:
Fake-Out, PUP, Return, Sucker punch.
No crunch, free burn.

 

[LordRandomness]

It has ways to deal with it, but half of those are niche assets that a good percentage of teams won't have. Doesn't change the fact that Mega-kang smashes the other 99% of the tier.

I could list a bunch of ways for you to deal with Extremekiller Arceus in OU for example. Does that mean it's not broken because it has specialized ways to deal with it, yet it still smashes through the rest of the tier? (I know Arceus-Normal has other sets but pretend it doesn't for this example)

I was under the impression that Noivern, Infernape, and Gengar at least were pretty popular, and the sets I've suggested only have one slightly niche move at worst on them. Volcarona isn't nearly as high quality in dealing with it, but it's also fairly solid. Combine this with all the Rocky Helmet tricks going around and it doesn't seem like too much of a chore to run two of these Pokemon and keep them entirely capable of contributing to the battle in other ways as well.

Plus, EKA has Extremespeed instead of Sucker Punch which makes it MUCH harder to play around. Sucker Punch being vulnerable to prediction is kind of a big deal and opens up some counterplay.

 

[RockStarFish]

- Flame Body as mentioned is good, mostly in conjunction with other methods but by itself in a pinch. It's useful outside of Mega Kanga, doesn't take up a moveslot or itemslot, and is on powerful pokemon like Volcarona.

The only Pokémon who would run Flame Body are all OHKOed by an unboosted Return, which means you're sac'ing a mon to inconvenience Mega Kangaskhan.

- Destiny Bond puts it in a bind if a faster Pokemon uses it since Sucker Punch will fail against Destiny Bond and a slower attack will bring both Pokemon down. Plus on the next turn it can't Sucker Punch because Destiny Bond is still active. This guarantees the Destiny Bond user will either trade with Mega Kanga (Non-Mega slot traded for Mega slot), get off a free attack, or force Kanga out. As such, I am comfortable in saying that Gengar is a solid check to Mega Kanga (not a counter since it dies horribly to Crunch, but none of Mega Kanga's other attacks can touch it on a switch-in making it a good check)

Problem with Destiny Bond is that it pressures Mega Kangaskhan to swap out; it doesn't actually stop Mega Kangaskhan, per se. It's off the field, yeah, but it can come right back and be its usual wrecking ball self whenever it feels like.

- Anything faster that can phaze it puts it in a tough spot, since using Sucker Punch will fail if phazing is used. Noivern is a decent example of this, correctly predicting the opposing attack will lead to either a successful phaze or a Focus Blast KO.

Phazing's great, but it's the same problem as with Destiny Bond. Sooner or later, you have to tackle it head-on, which very rarely works out well for you.

- Similarly, anything faster with good priority and KO potential can duel it. Infernape can cause Sucker Punch to fail with a faster Mach Punch or use Close Combat to KO if a slower move is predicted, for example (it additionally resists Sucker Punch which means it may be able to simply force Kanga out with CC depending on the situation). That makes it a pretty solid check too.

This is really the best (and, IMO, the only viable) way of taking out Mega Kangaskhan. Anything faster that can take a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO, or anything slower that isn't OHKOed by +2 Return and can OHKO in return.

 

[Ace07x]

So you're saying you can prepare for any physical threat the metagame has to throw at your team and still be able to handle anything else perfectly fine?
Lolwut

Ferrothorn with rocky helmet and iron barbs is a fairly common poke to run.

 

[SuperMeep]

I give up, theres too many people trying to ban it for the wrong reasons, and too many people sticking their head in the sand. ^%&# it, I give up, I give in. It'll be banned anyway, i trust the OU council, but you guys need to learn why we ban stuff. Either way, here are the reasons why Khan is banned again.

A.) Its speed tier is 100, severely limiting what would counter outside of priority, meaning that what would counter it has to faster than it, requiring a scarf or priority to get a hit in.
B.) The above, combined with it's bulk and sheer power means that a lot of frail fast mons that out speed it, such as Keldeo, can't 0HKO it thanks to it's bulk, and are destroyed when it hits back. Its power and bulk, combined with it's speed make to too much to be revenged easily, or even just taken down.
C.) To revenge it, you mush sacrifice something to do damage, then finish it off with priority, making sure the priority/counter switches in safely, because it will kill them with ease if the don't switch in safely. To remove it from the game literally requires you to sacrifice something. Even with the rocky helmet sets (which have been around forever, seriously, do some research) you still have to sacrifce a mon to kill it, with something ferrothorn, dying so khan can take a bunch of damage from hitting thorn, then being finished by priority.
D.) For example, one can pack a threat that is checked by the same things a M-Khan, and once say, Rocky helmet G-Chomp is dead along with Khan, that threat can sweep and win.

I PUT MY FAITH IN THE COUNCIL, PLEASE MAKE A WISE DECISION GUYS.

 

[vayu]

Ferrothorn with rocky helmet and iron barbs is a fairly common poke to run.

Not without khan in the game

 

[PenguinKnight]

It's pretty clear you never played DPP, which is what I was talking about.



No one has rebutted this post I made, but keep telling yourself that.

I still don't get what you're being so offensive for. I have played DPP OU, for hundreds of matches if I might add. Dealing with Dragon Dance Gyarados was always possible, and never required any shitty gimmicks that were otherwise useless. Why? Gyarados had no priority. Gyarados had a 4x weakness to electric moves.

You can go on using ad-hominem, but whatever. When this thing gets the ban (which it inevitably will), I'll be waiting for your rage.

 

[SuperMeep]

I still don't get what you're being so offensive for. I have played DPP OU, for hundreds of matches if I might add. Dealing with Dragon Dance Gyarados was always possible, and never required any shitty gimmicks that were otherwise useless. Why? Gyarados had no priority. Gyarados had a 4x weakness to electric moves.

You can go on using ad-hominem, but whatever. When this thing gets the ban (which it inevitably will), I'll be waiting for your rage.

You missed the point, reread the last couple pages. Although Khan should still be banned.

 

[Ace07x]

Not without khan in the game

I ran it in gen 5 and it worked just fine o-O

 

[Srn]

This is really the best (and, IMO, the only viable) way of taking out Mega Kangaskhan. Anything faster that can take a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO, or anything slower that isn't OHKOed by +2 Return and can OHKO in return.

You got it right there
Now let's take a look at these pokemon.
Off the top of my head, the only ones I can think of are:
Terrakion, cobalion, infernape, mega lucario (MUST BE MEGA BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO EVEN CHECK)
so basically, you have to run atleast one of these pokemon to check mega kang.
And you're sacking a mon to even get these guys in safely.

 

[Ruffles]

Guys, as long as this thing is forcing pokemon like Gyarados, Skarmory, Garchomp, and other random pokemons, then it is truly broken, it should be banned; no doubt, Mega Khan is extremely nice, but Wish?! Why? With 200BP Seismic toss? Return, EQ, Fire Punch, Sucker Punch and the ability to break sash. This guy has forced many people to carry certain poke/item that they wouldn't carry usually (Rocky Helmet Gyarados and Excadrill?! Really?) so I think it's uncompetitive and should be banned.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I was under the impression that Noivern, Infernape, and Gengar at least were pretty popular, and the sets I've suggested only have one slightly niche move at worst on them. Volcarona isn't nearly as high quality in dealing with it, but it's also fairly solid. Combine this with all the Rocky Helmet tricks going around and it doesn't seem like too much of a chore to run two of these Pokemon and keep them entirely capable of contributing to the battle in other ways as well.

Plus, EKA has Extremespeed instead of Sucker Punch which makes it MUCH harder to play around. Sucker Punch being vulnerable to prediction is kind of a big deal and opens up some counterplay.

Infernape is mediocre and Noivern hasn't ever done any significant damage to any of my teams either. Gengar can switch in to get Sucker Punched to death as soon as it tries to attack? Also flame body aside, Volcarona is so frail on the physical side, switching it in on Mega-Kang seems like a bad idea in theory.