Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[noobcubed]

If you want a challenge go play hack mons where shedinja gets sturdy. Hard to beat, but not impossible.

Actually pretty easy to beat - it's only Endeavour (potentially with Foresight too) that really makes Sturdy Shedinja threatening. Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, Leech Seed, Perish Song, Mold Breaker, Gastro Acid, sand, hail, Stealth Rock all kill it, just for starters. In hackmons you can check broken stuff with other broken stuff.

What you can't do is check broken stuff with non-broken stuff. You can't check MegaKhan with other OU Pokemon. It has to go.

Actually CactutCacti raises a point: you can just about check it if you devote half your team to the cause - and you will promptly get ripped to shreds by one of the other fifty menacing threats in the metagame.

 

[Grey Knight]

I just think that we should take some time
we have all the time in the world
quick banning this thing would be a crime
decisions may turn out wrong

guys why all the hurry
meta knowledge is still blurry

pokebank is coming soon
let the metagame mature






Edit:
pls stop recycling the same all arguments and dam calcs
like if they where tennis balls in, a tennis match
where the game is stuck in avd
the game will be decided by the referee
examining carefully the data from the hawk Eyeee




dam espresso coffee

 

[Aecor]

I think Mk should go to Ubers because of the bans of Mgen and MBlaz. I will use a 5th gen analogy to portray my argument.

For those of you who were around when the new Tornadus was introduced in 5th gen OU, it was very controversial. It had speed, bulk, ability, and the move-pool to be successful, so much so that it was banned to Ubers. As a result of this, Pokemon such as Breloom and Keldeo became even more rampant. Now, I am not saying Breloom and Keldeo were not good before the banning of Torn; however, it is undeniable that because Torn was banned, the usage and effectiveness of both Breloom and Keldeo increased drastically. Keldeo, specifically, got suspect tested since it could run a variety of powerful sets, such as Scarfed, Expert Belt, or Specs. People were on the fence, because Rain Boosted Specs Hydro-Pumps hurt many pokes, even those who resist it (think specially defensive Celebi), but it didn't seem to be entirely meta-game changing.

Because Tornadus was around when Keldeo was first introduced, Keldeo could not run an effective Calm Mind Set, Expert Belt, or Specs. Because Keldeo was often paired up with Politoed, it gave Torn free reign to spamming LO Hurricanes. It would easily outspeed Keldeo (barring scarfed), and knock it out, force it out, or check setting up Keldeos with Hurricane. With Tornadus gone, a huge check to Keldeo was locked away in ubers.

In today's meta, Mk could be dealt with Mblaz (resist sucker punch, outspeeds after +1) and Mgar. Mgar wasn't that great to beat Mkan (I think the standard Sub-Disable does better at it), but Mblaz could destroy most Khan, thereby people using it less and less. Now, because of the banning of two great Megas, and arguably better, Khan is now the flag-ship Mega-Mon for 6th Gen OU. Because of this, I feel that Mkhan should be illegal in the OU tier.

Mkhan now lacks an offensive check, barring Terrakion and Keldeo (Cob and Virizion do not have a popular niche in OU). Because of this, Mkhan has an easier time sweeping teams. If your team lacks SubDisable Gengar, Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or Chomp, or Sableye, you will struggle playing around Mkhan. I am not saying that these pokes are bad, because honestly, they are good in standard meta; however, with the prevalence of Mkhan being around, it makes these sets more appealing to use for players that struggle with Mkhan, thereby shifting the Meta (Having to use Sableye specifically to check Khan isn't healthy...it's like using Claydol to check Terrak).

It has great bulk for an offensive mon. It is unlikely to be OHKd by any Non-SE STAB, even from beasts like Lando and the likes. It has a competitive speed tier, just out-speeding Genesect, and speed tying Jirachi. For those who do outspeed Khan, it can be easily defeated using Sucker Punch.

It has a great movepool. PuP is essentially a weaker brick break + SD that can only be blocked via protecting moves and ghost types. Earthquake allows one to deal with Aegislash, Steel Types, and overall has good neutral coverage. Normal is a great offensive typing, being resisted by Rock and Steel, only to be defeated by EQ. Sucker Punch/Crunch allows you to hit ghost types.

It's ability allows one to essentially ignore substitute, have a higher crit ratio, and essentially make focus sash and sturdy useless. That is all I have to say for now. Please feel free to critique.

I am writing this at 4:21am when I should be studying for finals, so please bear with my bad grammar and lack of organization. Thanks!

 

[noobcubed]

quick banning this thing would be a crime, decisions may turn out wrong

It could always be unbanned later. Remember Kyurem-B?

Whether we decide to ban it or leave it unbanned, we could potentially be making a mistake. I think it is much safer to assume that it is broken than to assume it is not.

 

[Bummer]

Just get rid of all the things you think are OP, so we can go back to EVERY single team packing the same Excadrill/Tyranitar/Talonflame/Goodra/Terrakion/whatever whatever that people want to use in Pokebank.
BORING. I like a challenge. You guys seem to like repetition. You like knowing the exact pokemon that the other team has because you can use the exact same moves you used last time to win.

Just call it "Gen5 OU Enhanced". Without Mega-Evos, it's not a new game.

To one extent, I can acknowledge your sentiments. While XY didn't deliver as many new species as earlier gens, it also revealed a whole slew of mega mons, so one would expect that the megas would (and are) significantly shape the new meta that would unfold, so continuously banning them would be like denying the new regimen. But there's one flaw with that argument:

Only one mega is allowed per team.

If you could have as many megas you wanted on your team, then common mons that were OU in gen V would suddenly find themselves in lower positions. Not because their functions have changed all too much, but simply because the mega mons would be used much more. The megas would be the new standard and everything else would need to adapt. But since only ONE teamslot can be dedicated to a mega, then the rest of the team would struggle if the mega mon is in a class of its own, either to avoid becoming dead weight if your mega is defeated or to be able to fend off the mega on the opposing team.

Because of this limitation, we are forced to compare megas to regular OU mons, since that's the environment they'll thrive in, and not in a meta where players can have as many megas they would like. And if a mega is found to be way more threatening than the rest of the tier ..... well you know the rest. Although you may want to consider that this is the tier than not only considered Kyurem-B, but also let it stay. We're not afraid of dangerous threats, but we don't like mons that forces the rest of the competition to play along with its games.

 

[Arcticblast]

Hey KaminaSan, I wrote this post back on page 40 to address users with concerns identical to yours (in fact, I may have been addressing you in particular). You might want to read over it.

I've been thinking about how to properly answer all of the "if we ban Mega Kangaskhan we'll ban all of the Megas and ruin the sixth generation!" posts. I think I've finally got it.

We all know at this point that much of Game Freak's balancing is done with double battles in mind - it is, after all, their VGC format. As someone who primarily plays Smogon's Doubles format (main difference being 6v6 instead of 4v4 and having some cool stuff unbanned), I've seen a fair few of these Mega Evolutions in play in a more natural environment and think that they've been handled marvelously well. They embrace the original idea behind Mega Evolution - powerful Pokemon that sacrifice their item slot for an incredibly powerful position on the team only they can hold. They're quite simply amazing - pretty much every single one of them (lol Alakazam). BUT they're all balanced reasonably well. With a few exceptions, they are all primarily single-target Pokemon that are fairly easy to cripple and remove from the match with some smart play - even Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar fall victims to this. The ones that escape single-target syndrome (Gardevoir, Abomasnow, ZardY) are potent threats as well, but are limited by their inability to avoid things like Prankster Thunder Wave, vulnerability to Wide Guard, and being threatened by some of the top Pokemon in the 2013 metagame like Cresselia, Thundurus-I, and Tyranitar.

In singles, the dynamic changes. There are no longer four Pokemon on the field in an elaborate dance for victory. Now it's a one on one slugfest. Even the worst Megas in Doubles suddenly only have to worry about the Pokemon in front of them, and not its partner and their partner. And when there's only one thing in front of them, some of these things absolutely wreak havoc. Kangaskhan now no longer has to rely on a partner to take out that Landorus-T which will come in effortlessly otherwise and weaken it. Lucario no longer has to worry about literally anything that uses Earthquake. There's so much less for them to deal with, and already powerful Pokemon become even stronger (again, lol Alakazam). This is what makes them so powerful in OU - the environment they were balanced for simply does not exist, and in this environment where many of the forms of passive countering that they fear don't exist, they are able to wreak havoc.

It essentially boils down to "it doesn't matter if Megas are new, they are quite simply too good in a healthy OU metagame." The argument that all Mega Pokemon should be allowed is, quite frankly, baseless and 100% wrong.

Bummer's post is also excellent and I suggest you read that.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

If we're using overpowered things to check overpowered things, then it stands to reason that all overpowered things should pretty much get the fuck out. blaziken, gengar, deoxys and khan are pretty much this. kangaskhan is especially more so.

think of it from an economics pov. kangaskhan basically forces you to de-value the walling potential of some of your pokemon (read: helmet over lefties) and for some weirdoes out there, run completely random and niche sets just to counter kang (and their job is ... kill kang. if kang isn't around, they suck thumbs and do nothing for the entire game. this is basically referring to all those dudes suggesting weird things like hitmontop, dusclops, drifblim (wtf is this even a check), spiritomb, etc). even sableye is somewhat niche, but this isn't a sableye discussion so i wont elaborate much. against non-mk teams you're pretty much going 5-6 because those guys won't be doing much for you at all.

mk is a pokemon that requires /specific/ 'counters' (haha as if) or multiple pokemon just to setup for a talonflame revenge, which also means talonflame can also die from recoil in the process. in a 6v6 game, trading one pokemon (mk) for multiple of your opponents (whatever helmetfag you guys decide to run these days + your half-dead talonflame) gives the MK player a massive advantage. mk is like bringing 2 pokemon to a pokemon game and turning it into 7v6 instead of 6v6. literally and figuratively. mk takes so many pokemon to kill, and in the meantime it manhandles the opposition with +2 return like it is nothing.

i think it's pretty clear that the side with seven pokemon is going to win more battles :X

 

[TheJFrenzy1]

It should be banned. Not a lot stands against it outside of a scarfed pokemon. I'm thinking that Justified Absol with a Scarf might be able to take it on due to Justified boosting its attack if it uses sucker punch and Absol having a scarf means it will outspeed it. When Absol gets Superpower (if it doesn't get it already) a +1 SP from Absol should OHKO ME Khangaskhan.

 

[Azure Demon]

One of the kangaskhanite counters I have found is Terrakion, which resists sucker punches and gains attack boosts, and can OHKO with close combat. The only chance of beating one is to carry a strong, fast fighting type that can take a sucker punch at plus two and OHKO back. Lucario and Terrakion are the some of the few pokemon that can check megaKhan. There aren't enough counters in bank or OU, so I believe it should be banned as well.

Sorry but mega kangaskhan still does have eq man

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 348-411 (107.7 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Followed by a sucre punch can still kill terrakion

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 69-82 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO

These calcs were done at +0, at +2 terrakion isn't switching in and outright dies to an EQ . This isn't a counter man it is a check.

 

[escarlata]

Sorry but mega kangaskhan still does have eq man

252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 232-274 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Followed by a sucre punch can still kill terrakion

252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 46-55 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

These calcs were done at +0, at +2 terrakion isn't switching in and outright dies to an EQ . This isn't a counter man it is a check.

note that you forgot to count Parental Bonds. It's a sure OHKO

 

[sidakarya]

I know, this is beating a dead horse here but...

BORING. I like a challenge. You guys seem to like repetition. You like knowing the exact pokemon that the other team has because you can use the exact same moves you used last time to win.

I'd rather fight a Mega Kanga any day vs your standard cookie cutter team.

...

...Wie bitte?

 

[Azure Demon]

note that you forgot to count Parental Bonds. It's a sure OHKO

Thanks, I completely forgot this time.
Let me go correct those.

 

[Azure Demon]

I'm open to banning any pokemon, megas or not. But there is some sort of logic that kind of makes me wary of how some people are adopting this discussion.

Mega pokemon are so powerful than only one is allowed in each team, they are supposed to be that powerful. Then people call for banning because mega pokemon work as they are supposed to work. People complain that their Garchomp is almost dead after countering a Mega Kangaskhan, which is close to Chess players complaining about losing a Rock to take out a Queen.

If Megas were meant to centralize the metagame, the current tiering system might be unable to properly judge fit them into the official tiers. The ability to run a single mega pokemon will make them more centralized, this should somehow be taken into consideration when discussing bannings imo.

Let's get this right... You're going with the yeah mega kangaskhan is stupid broken, but that's because it's supposed to be argument? If that was the case last gen tornadus therian form should have been left in OU. I mean regenrator+ life orb pivot with a great move pool! great speed! and U-turn which is obviously meant to be strong but there is a difference between strong and broken. If a pokemon is guaranteed to do it's job no matter what obstacles that is broken man. There are plenty of megas that you can fight against with a regular team of pokemon, but still come out on top. Mega kangaskhan's issue is that he is far too good considering even the bulkiest of his resist fall fall before him after a swords dance that does damage. There is nothing that can switch into him, take a hit, and come out on top still. This isn't the case with a lot of megas in today's meta for example mega lucario is countered, by any bulky ghost or bulky psychics because while he is strong his entire set isn't pumped up just his fighting moves. He is checked by tons of things as well.
Mega y zard's destroyed by rocks countered completely by heatran or tyranitar. Things like that exist for other megas mega kangaskhan not so much man.

 

[Fafnir]

Where was it said that they were meant to centralize the metagame? The only implication you have to justify that claim is the limitation of only one per team, which has more in common with item clause (which Gamefreak/Nintendo do use) than anything else. With the exceptions of Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan, (and possibly Mega Lucario, although not nearly to the extent of those two), there is not a single mega which acts to centralize the metagame to the extent you are expecting.
With the exception of the aforementioned broken as hell megas, mega evolutions have acted to either raise otherwise mediocre to bad pokemon to more playable levels (although some will be lucky to even make it to UU), or take already good pokemon, and simply give them new options that do not centralize the metagame.

 

[a_dollar]

Wish we could just ban power-up punch on this thing, sick of new stuff getting banned but Khang is pretty op

 

[Azure Demon]

Where was it said that they were meant to centralize the metagame? The only implication you have to justify that claim is the limitation of only one per team, which has more in common with item clause (which Gamefreak/Nintendo do use) than anything else. With the exceptions of Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan, (and possibly Mega Lucario, although not nearly to the extent of those two), there is not a single mega which acts to centralize the metagame to the extent you are expecting.
With the exception of the aforementioned broken as hell megas, mega evolutions have acted to either raise otherwise mediocre to bad pokemon to more playable levels (although some will be lucky to even make it to UU), or take already good pokemon, and simply give them new options that do not centralize the metagame.

Somewhere around here sounded like you were attempting to justify it

Mega pokemon are so powerful than only one is allowed in each team, they are supposed to be that powerful. Then people call for banning because mega pokemon work as they are supposed to work. People complain that their Garchomp is almost dead after countering a Mega Kangaskhan, which is close to Chess players complaining about losing a Rock to take out a Queen.

Chess is a game where all the pieces are predetermined there is no team composition. Everyone has the same pieces if we keep mega kangaskhan however I fear a chess game might be exactly like a chess match.

Wish we could just ban power-up punch on this thing, sick of new stuff getting banned but Khang is pretty op

Doesn't help all that much considering it still two shots a lot of the tier or it could be creative and run moves with secondary effects that gave it extra attacks like rock slide with a 60% flinch chance also only things to be banned were clearly uber pokemon who were already uber as hell last gen and were expected to stay that way and mega gengar.

 

[LordRandomness]

Doesn't help all that much considering it still two shots a lot of the tier or it could be creative and run moves with secondary effects that gave it extra attacks like rock slide with a 60% flinch chance also only things to be banned were clearly uber pokemon who were already uber as hell last gen and were expected to stay that way and mega gengar.

To be fair, without PuP it is actually walled by premier physical walls since it would lack a decent boosting option. That'd go a long way to making it "just another powerful mon" rather than forcing players to rely on a series of checks ranging from okay to quite weak.

 

[barbaricdj]

Hi, I'm new here, a friend and I were talking about this and he pointed me here. I was originally for it being a viable Pokemon in OU with Mega Lucario being able to kill it without sucker punch, and Defensive Arcainine intimidating it, burning, then healing to tank it (two Pokemon I commonly run). However, after reading the comments I can see where it makes sense to ban it. With very few actual counters (although it does have some decent checks) this thing can wreck given the opportunity from lack of offensive pressure or a good prediction on the switch. I would like yo mess around with it a bit more before it gets banned, but if I were to make a decision now, I would say to ban it.

 

[Chou Toshio]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69433129

^Incredibly entertaining. Short but sweet.


edit:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69474590
This time with Trevenac, Skarmory, AND Landorus-T on the enemy team...

 

[Bent1ey]

Somewhere around here sounded like you were attempting to justify it
Chess is a game where all the pieces are predetermined there is no team composition. Everyone has the same pieces if we keep mega kangaskhan however I fear a chess game might be exactly like a chess match.

That's a fair point, Gen V had a similar status regarding weather starters (in different moments of the previous gens), but many people utterly hated it too.

The one-mega-per-team rule is also unaccounted for in the usage stats department too, as they will limit the use of other megas indirectly.

For the time being, I'm ok with banning Kangaskhan because of Power Up Punch... But wary of the possibility of dealing with other potential mega issues in the light of more releases to come. Meh, we'll jump that bridge when we get there I guess.

 

[Hawky]

Is there any other Mega or non mega pokemon that you have to sack something in order to revenge kill them?
Feels like every other pokemon in OU can be decently walled or checked besides Mega Kang.

 

[Azure Demon]

To be fair, without PuP it is actually walled by premier physical walls since it would lack a decent boosting option. That'd go a long way to making it "just another powerful mon" rather than forcing players to rely on a series of checks ranging from okay to quite weak.

It still sounds like we are over centralizing the meta seeing as now we are require to run one of those premier walls just to get it gone. I can't deny that what you said is true, taking away PUP will help, but as I said before and I'll say again taking away pup helps but it doesn't alleviate the issue parental bond presents as an ability itself. Taking away pup gives it a free move slot to do more things with to bypass said walls with either pure power OR coverage moves. Fire blast while unorthodox works beautifully for removal of said walls.

For example skarmory

0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 210-249 (62.8 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 234-282 (66.4 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 210-252 (59.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 189-225 (56.5 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And if you were considering mandibuzz in your premier wall category look at this

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 171-202 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And while less important lets not forget the 20% shot at burn because Mega kangaskhan's effects also have two shots thanks to the baby

 

[Fafnir]

Somewhere around here sounded like you were attempting to justify it

My apologies, the post I was criticizing was the removed one above yours, which you yourself also quoted.

 

[Pyritie]

It still sounds like we are over centralizing the meta seeing as now we are require to run one of those premier walls just to get it gone. I can't deny that what you said is true, taking away PUP will help, but as I said before and I'll say again taking away pup helps but it doesn't alleviate the issue parental bond presents as an ability itself. Taking away pup gives it a free move slot to do more things with to bypass said walls with either pure power OR coverage moves. Fire blast while unorthodox works beautifully for removal of said walls.

For example skarmory

0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 210-249 (62.8 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 234-282 (66.4 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 210-252 (59.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 189-225 (56.5 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And if you were considering mandibuzz in your premier wall category look at this

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 171-202 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And while less important lets not forget the 20% shot at burn because Mega kangaskhan's effects also have two shots thanks to the baby

Dedicated walls don't work well against mixed attackers, more news at 11

 

[LordRandomness]

It still sounds like we are over centralizing the meta seeing as now we are require to run one of those premier walls just to get it gone. I can't deny that what you said is true, taking away PUP will help, but as I said before and I'll say again taking away pup helps but it doesn't alleviate the issue parental bond presents as an ability itself. Taking away pup gives it a free move slot to do more things with to bypass said walls with either pure power OR coverage moves. Fire blast while unorthodox works beautifully for removal of said walls.

For example skarmory

0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 210-249 (62.8 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 234-282 (66.4 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 210-252 (59.6 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 189-225 (56.5 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And if you were considering mandibuzz in your premier wall category look at this

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 171-202 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And while less important lets not forget the 20% shot at burn because Mega kangaskhan's effects also have two shots thanks to the baby

Ah, I guess it does have the potential to run two coverage moves if it no longer uses PuP, and with 200HP Seismic Toss as well as good coverage and raw power, it's still got pretty strong wallbreaking potential. Although to be fair it's still considerably harder for it to defeat certain things (Jellicent comes to mind, Sableye DEFINITELY wins if Kanga can't get past +0, etc) and offensive checking becomes a lot easier (since the Sucker Punch power drops to half of what it was, a lot more things will avoid the OHKO and take it down in response)

EDIT: Also what Pyritie said (although to be fair it's a mixed attacker with the physical strength of a dedicated physical attacker without losing too much Special side power thanks to Parental Bond)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69433129

^Incredibly entertaining. Short but sweet.

You could almost see the "nope I'm out" on that person's face. I take it Kang vs. The World is an alt of yours on a quest to show everyone how ridiculous it is?