Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

[Korlashh]

.

You're too late, I decided not to tier it and therefore don't care anymore.

I never cared what you and other people thought about it. I don't care that you are 100% confident that it is fantastic. You've never convinced me because the only thing I got from your posts was "well mine was awesome!" Just subjective posts with no sentiment.

Someone mentioned the eviolite, and that is why I didn't do a write-up for it. I want to post here based on my own experiences. It's not worth nominating it at all at this point. I'm not nominating it for B tier because I realize I didn't use it at its fullest potential, and not for A tier for the same reason (it would be a pointless theoretical nomination). In both cases, they would be unjust nominations. The eviolite could have changed alot.

Just drop it, please.

 

[Mulan15262]

You're too late, I decided not to tier it and therefore don't care anymore.

I never cared what you and other people thought about it. I don't care that you are 100% confident that it is fantastic. You've never convinced me because the only thing I got from your posts was "well mine was awesome!" Just subjective posts with no sentiment.

Someone mentioned the eviolite, and that is why I didn't do a write-up for it. I want to post here based on my own experiences. It's not worth nominating it at all at this point. I'm not nominating it for B tier because I realize I didn't use it at its fullest potential, and not for A tier for the same reason (it would be a pointless theoretical nomination). In both cases, they would be unjust nominations.

Just drop it, please.

What do you mean by just subjective posts? I did provide some objective data (how well its attacks affect opponents is objective data, at least when put the way I put it). Stating that it outsped most foes and that its attacks were sufficient to OHKO/2HKO most foes is objective data.

And mine being fantastic is good evidence towards it being A-tier when mine was Adamant and I used it specially offensively.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Guys Fennekin is not going to be changing tiers when I update next, so can you not continue to argue about its tiering before it turns into a flame-war. Thank you.

There is pretty much a consensus here that Fennekin is pretty much A-Tier standard, so we are pretty much finished with arguing over its tiering for now. Not even its mid-game rut hurts it that much to the point where it could be dropped.

 

[Korlashh]

What do you mean by just subjective posts? I did provide some objective data (how well its attacks affect opponents is objective data, at least when put the way I put it). Stating that it outsped most foes and that its attacks were sufficient to OHKO/2HKO most foes is objective data.

And mine being fantastic is good evidence towards it being A-tier when mine was Adamant and I used it specially offensively.

Just drop it, please.

@ Mulan: I posted nominations for Furfrou, Magnezone, Cloyster, and Bisharp. Feel free to read up on those if you're tempted to post again.

 

[Spenstar]

Looks like we need a change in topic. Um... How about Espeon?

 

[Tomy]

I wanted to test it, but the friendship evolution doesn't help it. Espeon learns Psybeam at level 20, and the next STAB is Psychic, at level 37 (And Future Sight at level 25). So, or you increase friendship like there were no tomorrow without leveling up, or you catch up Psychic pretty late. Of course, this is only theory...

But, I'm actually testing Flareon (new game, defeated Grant like 10 minutes ago), and it's reaaaally good. 130 ATK with Fire Fang right after the evolution (Fire Stone is available before the Second Gym, like Eevee itself) make this guy a true powerhouse earlygame...And as it will get Flare Blitz later.

Another great surprise is Oddish. 75 SpA is pretty sweet for a first stage poke, and you catch Venoshock at the same Route. It levels up pretty quickly, and the Leaf Stone is right before Ambrette Town. As Oddish doesn't learn by level-up interesting moves until late 40's, I evolved it right at level 21 to have Vileplume, which absolutely slaughters everything with Venoshock. The lack of reliable Plant STAB will hurt it late-game, I guess.

 

[Spenstar]

Vileplume does sound interesting... Poison STAB only until grass knot and later Energy Ball and Petal Dance(?) is a downside, and it's slow. A write-up would be welcome. Not to mention its SpA is actually higher than Venusaur's pre-Mega and it gets Dazzling Gleam

 

[Tomy]

You have the mighty Mega Drain (lol). And Grass Knot is a bit shaky. But yeah, stat-wise it's really interesting. I'm enjoying using that big flower a lot. As soon as I finish the game I'll write one :)

 

[Korlashh]

Evolving Eevee into Espeon sounds pretty bad, but it's in a decent location to evolve it. It could get a message in Cyllage City, and ride your bike on the track used for the race you "missed."

Espeon could wreck things in reflection cave and against Korrina, but would have to rely on Psybeam/Psychic for a while before TM support arrives: Grass Knot after the grass gym, Dazzling Gleam after the fairy gym, and shadow ball inbetween the Psychic and Ice gym. Reflect/Light screen aren't available until post-game.

Spamming Psychic with 130 base SpA can get you a long way though. I'm temped to try it.

 

[Tomy]

Yeah, but you have to ride for a long time. I guess it's not a good option for an "effective" run. Vaporeon/Flareon/Jolteon are more reliable because their respective stones are available pretty early. But yeah, once you have Espeon with Psychic and all the coverage moves it should be pretty good.

 

[Hidious]

Pikachu: S tier Who am I kidding? Limbo C/D

The electric mouse that spawned a thousand knock-offs has returned once again to waste a spot on your team!

Availability: Pikachu can be found in Viridian Santalune forest and is listed as uncommon rare, meaning it is the first electric type you can catch. If you were wondering, yes these Pikachu have a chance of holding the exclusive light ball which turns this rather week mouse into a nuke that can rival the power of mewtwo. However, because Pikachu is a pretty rare mon and the chances of it holding a light ball is only 5% (7.5% 20% if you use compoundeyes) it can take hours to even find one holding a light ball. A thunderstone can be found easily on route 10 to evolve it into Raichu

Stats: Pikachu itself has decent speed, but awful defenses and attacking stats. However, if you acquire one holding a light ball, its attack and special attack double making it an extremely powerful offensive pokemon. Raichu has average bulk, good speed, and decent offenses

Movepool: Pikachu has access to thunderbolt and quick attack early. It receives an upgrade in electro ball at lvl 18. It receives the powerful thunderbolt pretty early in the late 20's. On the TM side, it can learn important coverage moves like dig and grass knot.

Typing: Pure electric type is pretty good defensively, only being hit super effectively by ground moves. Electric is a mediocre attacking type in-game, only hitting water and flying super effectively, but being resisted by grass and electric, and not hitting ground at all!

Important Battles:

I'm gonna assume you have a light ball, because that is really the only reason why you would consider Pikachu.

Viola: Pikachu can sweep this gym pretty easily, outspeeding both of her pokemon and hitting supereffectively with thundershock.

Grant: You can teach Pikachu rock smash and take out Amaura, but you likely won't OHKO tyrunt, and anything will OKHO you.

Korrina: Pikachu can't take more than one hit here, so it should probably only be used against Hawlucha mienfoo. Thunderbolt should OHKO both.

Ramos: I'd sit this one out. You might be able to defeat jumpluff but that is it.

Clemont: You should be able to sweep with thunderbolt and dig

Valerie: Dig deals with Mawile and Mr. Mime, but Sylveon will be a pain. Pikachu can't really take any hits if any here.

Olympia: Thunderbolt can deal with Sigilyph and Slowking, but might not OHKO so Pikachu might not make it past both. Meowstic could be a problem if pikachu isn't at full health.

Wulfric: You'll be OHKO'd by pretty much anything. Avalugg has poor special defense so a thunderbolt should take it out.

Team Flare: Pikachu is decent against team flare. It will take out the golbats and houndooms with thunderbolt and dig, respectively.

Malva: It's kind of a gamble here because pikachu might not outspeed pyroar and talonflame. You can OHKO both with dig and thunderbolt. Chandelure you should be able to ko with dig, but torkoal can take a hit. With Pikachu's terrible defenses, you'll most likely get OHKO'd by any attack here.

Wikstrom: Dig can take out klefki and probopass, but aegislash and scizor can take a dig and OHKO with practically anything.

Drasna: You can't really do much here than maybe take out Altaria. Noivern is gonna outspeed you and most likely OHKO.

Siebold: Everything else but starmie is an easy kill. Starmie may outspeed you and OHKO though.

Diantha: Pikachu can't really do much here but take out Hawlucha and even that is given, because it outspeeds you. Everything else either resists thunderbolt or has very high special defense. With pikachu's terrible defenses, it will likely be OHKO by anything.

 

[Banryu]

^ Pikachu does allright without Light Ball, although it is pretty weak for quite a while until you're able to evolve it, yeah.

As for the stone Eeveelutions, In looking at their movepools… …I think, funnily enough, Flareon is probably the best of the bunch here. Both Jolteon and Vaporeon have to wait quite a while for a STAB move that actually packs a punch (Tbolt and Surf), and neither of them have any particularly good coverage options until Shadow Ball, which comes quite late. Yeah, it sounds like Flareon's at the top of the pack in this instance with Fire Fang, Bite, Return, and Quick Attack... how about that.

 

[Merm]

Korlashh Personally don't feel Furfrou should be B from the write-up you did. Its movepool doesn't seem great, though STAB return can hit a lot of things neutrally I guess (obviously failing against Wikstrom). Support is also not the most efficient way to go in an ingame run, when you could be OHKOing with speedy hardhitting attackers. Furthermore, like how I wrote in my Meowstic analysis that 80something Attacking stats simply don't cut it late game. It at least has harder hitting STAB, but from what you've written it doesn't sound like a B.

 

[Lucchini]

Availability: Pikachu can be found in Viridian Santalune forest and is listed as uncommon, meaning it is the first electric type you can catch. If you were wondering, yes these Pikachu have a chance of holding the exclusive light ball which turns this rather week mouse into a nuke that can rival the power of mewtwo. However, because Pikachu is a pretty rare mon and the chances of it holding a light ball is only 5% (7.5% if you use compoundeyes) it can take hours to even find one holding a light ball. A thunderstone can be found easily on route 10 to evolve it into Raichu

First of all, I wanted to correct you that Compound Eyes makes the chance of finding a Light Ball equal to 20%. This has been the case since gen 5.

Also, I'm not sure if I was just lucky or what, but when I placed my own Pikachu at the first spot of the party I ran into like 6 Pikachus in a row. Not sure if the lead makes the wild Pokemon mirror yours in appearance rates (any confirmation on this one?).

I'd say it's very realistic to find a Pikachu and a Light Ball; the opportunity cost isn't really huge.

From my experience, Raichu is pretty reliable. I ended up evolving my Pikachu after Clemont and didn't regret it - Pikachu was getting outsped and OHKO'd (or 2HKO'd but not OHKOing back), though that had something to do with my team's levels (-5-8 compared to the opposition for most of the game). Raichu KO'd a lot of stuff without a type advantage anyway - STAB Thunderbolt is really strong and 110 speed meant outspeeding in spite of the level disadvantage.

I think Pikachu is B/C limbo and his tiering depends on how much value you attribute to the early Light Ball (honestly, it's pretty easy to get quickly).

 

[DarkyPwnz]

First of all, I wanted to correct you that Compound Eyes makes the chance of finding a Light Ball equal to 20%. This has been the case since gen 5.

Also, I'm not sure if I was just lucky or what, but when I placed my own Pikachu at the first spot of the party I ran into like 6 Pikachus in a row. Not sure if the lead makes the wild Pokemon mirror yours in appearance rates (any confirmation on this one?).

I'd say it's very realistic to find a Pikachu and a Light Ball; the opportunity cost isn't really huge.

From my experience, Raichu is pretty reliable. I ended up evolving my Pikachu after Clemont and didn't regret it - Pikachu was getting outsped and OHKO'd (or 2HKO'd but not OHKOing back), though that had something to do with my team's levels (-5-8 compared to the opposition for most of the game). Raichu KO'd a lot of stuff without a type advantage anyway - STAB Thunderbolt is really strong and 110 speed meant outspeeding in spite of the level disadvantage.

I think Pikachu is B/C limbo and his tiering depends on how much value you attribute to the early Light Ball (honestly, it's pretty easy to get quickly).

That's because having a Static lead makes Electric pokemon much more likely to appear.

 

[Lucchini]

That's because having a Static lead makes Electric pokemon much more likely to appear.

Aha, gotcha! Didn't know that one. There you go, catch one Pikachu and you will easily find many more. Place a dead Scatterbug in front of Pikachu, and you can find a Light Ball as fast as I did. By the time you get a Light Ball, you will also likely find a Pikachu with a good nature/IV spread (I had a +atk one and it would grab some unlikely OHKOs with Return during midgame).

Also, regarding Vileplume: if you wait 2 levels to use the stone on Gloom, you can have Mega Drain in addition to Venoshock, which is pretty helpful until Grass Knot becomes available.

Korlashh's write-up is informative but his suggested tiering for the Pokemon don't always correspond to how he describes them, I feel. Cloyster seems like a definite B from his set-up potential, while Furfrou appears more like C/D limbo (situational support and no effective STAB against anything). 80 attack is low enough when you have a super-effective STAB, but when it's a normal-type we're talking about, it just won't do. Snorlax has 110 attack and better special bulk and even then I'm not very satisfied with his combat (pretty bad against Valerie for example).

 

[Korlashh]

^ I am open to tiering Cloyster as a B. This is one of the pokemon I expected you guys to argue against since it can't take a special hit.

Korlashh Personally don't feel Furfrou should be B from the write-up you did. Its movepool doesn't seem great, though STAB return can hit a lot of things neutrally I guess (obviously failing against Wikstrom). Support is also not the most efficient way to go in an ingame run, when you could be OHKOing with speedy hardhitting attackers. Furthermore, like how I wrote in my Meowstic analysis that 80something Attacking stats simply don't cut it late game. It at least has harder hitting STAB, but from what you've written it doesn't sound like a B.

It's possible I'm biasing it on the fact that my pokemon were underleveled and I struggled during some parts of the game (such as being outspeed by the gym Mr. Mime or being outpaced by a Mega Gyarados that is 6-8 lvls higher than my team). During hard times, I value pokemon that can actually take a hit and make a move.

Furfrou takes non-fighting physical moves effortlessly, survives numerous special moves reliably bar focus blast, and commonly goes first. Snorlax is tiered a C for the same reason, that plus it gets outpaced 95% of the time (meaning it will often require taking two hits). As much as I want to pull the "this does the job better" card, it is simply much faster (which speed is undeniably a huge factor for usefulness).

I'm not advocating B-tier because Furfrou is god-mode. I'm advocating it because it comes early and at its fullest form, starts strong, fast, and bulky, and stays strong, fast, and bulky for quite a while. I understand why people nominate it for C, since it starts to lose its luster as the strongest of pokemon emerge. But still, this pokemon was an independent fighter that was pretty flexible when it comes to picking battles.

I'll edit my write up as a C if it makes people happy. I was just writing to reflect my experiences. But if my standards for tiering were too low, then I'll just update my post.

 

[Korlashh]

How many pokemon do you guys use on an in-game team for tiering purposes? I used 5 up until snowbelle city, but I'm considering 4 if I start a run on X.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Generally at least 3-4 members... Well... That is what the end goal is the make the tier list assume... Definitely more than two... :|

 

[Tomy]

Also, regarding Vileplume: if you wait 2 levels to use the stone on Gloom, you can have Mega Drain in addition to Venoshock, which is pretty helpful until Grass Knot becomes available.

Actually Oddish learns Mega Drain at level 21, right on time before the evolution. So, no need to wait until level 23.

 

[Spenstar]

Regarding Espeon, how long would it take to evolve it if Espeon's caught with a Luxury Ball?

 

[Korlashh]

Spenstar: If I start my run tonight, I can try to get to that point tomorrow and tell you. I think I want to use Espeon this run.

Generally at least 3-4 members... Well... That is what the end goal is the make the tier list assume... Definitely more than two... :|

Ah, well some tiers make more sense to me now. Thanks.

I'm updating my post so I have Furfrou for C tier and Cloyster for Limbo B/C (leaning more towards B). Regarding Furfrou, I thought it did pretty well; but if Kangaskhan is decided as C (realized earlier today), then Furfrou surely doesn't deserve being higher than Kangaskhan.

As for Cloyster, B tier has always been in my head during my run; but I don't expect anybody here to find it useful in the last 4 gyms. Shell Smash guarantees a sweep against the E4's Fire and Dragon team, and also the champion, but it has to set up on a physical attacker (which I recommend Talonflame, Druddigon, and Hawlucha, respectively).

 

[Banryu]

B-tier sounds just fine for Cloyster based on the evidence given.

I've been thinking a bit about my tiering for Flygon and I'm thinking maybe C-tier is a bit more appropriate for it (depending on how much recovery in Roost + out-of-battle utility with Fly/Strength/Rock Smash/Dig would affect its ranking). Maybe Trapinch should be B/C Limbo? I dunno.

 

[Merm]

I've been considering doing a write-up on Pumpkaboo, but I'm not sure which size should be tiered? I imagine without evolution it'd be the small size since its Attack doesn't vary, but maybe an Average or Large for Gourgeist?

 

[Lucchini]

Regarding Espeon, how long would it take to evolve it if Espeon's caught with a Luxury Ball?

Hard to calculate, but it depends on whether you level with Soothe Bell held, whether you let it die, how many haircuts you're able to give it, if it levels up in the same place you catch it, etc. Sounds like a big inconvenience anyway, but efficient biking could help.

SpenstarI'm updating my post so I have Furfrou for C tier and Cloyster for Limbo B/C (leaning more towards B). Regarding Furfrou, I thought it did pretty well; but if Kangaskhan is decided as C (realized earlier today), then Furfrou surely doesn't deserve being higher than Kangaskhan.

As for Cloyster, B tier has always been in my head during my run; but I don't expect anybody here to find it useful in the last 4 gyms. Shell Smash guarantees a sweep against the E4's Fire and Dragon team, and also the champion, but it has to set up on a physical attacker (which I recommend Talonflame, Druddigon, and Hawlucha, respectively).

Kangaskhan has a slightly better attack, a poorer durability against physical moves, definitely a better movepool. Furfrou can't be above Kangaskhan, but the other way around also sounds unlikely (no Swords Dance or even Hone Claws on Kanga; no mega evo either). Zangoose is the one normal-type who should probably rise above all the C-tier normals; not sure about Lax (too slow and waits for Belly Drum too long).

I don't see why you wouldn't take on Mawile (no Shell Smash at that point just yet I think), and you could set up against Cryogonal in the last gym battle.

re: Olympia - is it not possible to survive Sigilyph's Psychic? 103 sp. atk. isn't that high. Then again, if you begin your sweep ASAP, I'm not sure if you'll have enough power to OHKO Slowking before dying to his Psychic (or Power Gem, pick your poison) after the stat reduction. Return/Payback may not OHKO at +2 attack (though out of Bro and King, King is the least physical defensive).

I've been considering doing a write-up on Pumpkaboo, but I'm not sure which size should be tiered? I imagine without evolution it'd be the small size since its Attack doesn't vary, but maybe an Average or Large for Gourgeist?

A Pumpkaboo that can't evolve isn't going above F tier so there's no point in checking that. I'd go with Average size because the higher speed still gives Gourgeist an advantage, but we can't always assume we hunt down the one of the right size.