Sorry, I forgot one important detail: For the purposes of initial] sorting. Once we have a Top tier we can divide it to S and A, and so forth. And even if you disagree with RSE, HGSS is clearly divided up into more tiers than this one and still has more high tier Pokemon than XY, which shouldn't be happening be XY has so many Pokemon available.
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Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Its_A_Random
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I actually used a Houndoom for a bit in my X game before I decided to restart. I wasn't too terribly impressed. I'd say C tier. It eventually gets some good moves but it is weak defensively, and its early movepool sucks, so you have to stick with Fire Fang/Beat Up. I'll try it again though and see what I think.
I want to help with the tiering process so is there any pokemon someone wants me to rate. I will be doing it with a blastoise and talonflame, as well as whatever tier rating pokemon people suggest.
The only time I can think when the community united to really settle which tier each mon should be in was the RBY topics (and I guess also BW tiering), and Pokemon were arranged alphabetically in very few tiers, in contrast to this tier list or HG/SS. I think part of the interest is finding out who's "the best" - this is why we've talked about Venusaur, Honedge and Charizard more than anybody else. But questions like "is Pidgey better than Skrelp?" don't interest people nearly as much it seems.
The cited HG/SS High tier features 11 Pokemon (some of whom shouldn't be there at all, like Venonat, but that's beside the point). The present thread's B tier (which is the best tier to assume equivalent with High) also has 11 Pokemon, and more are likely to be added (but not more than 5 or so, I would expect).
It's worth remembering that the in-game experience has got harder since HG/SS (with Exp Share out of the picture that is), so some of the normally "good enough" Pokemon aren't good enough here anymore.
I gotta agree, this game really exposes some pokemon w/o the EXP share.
It's up to you if you feel like using it. Having those two attacks aren't much, but I think it can still excel against Ramos and Clermont while it relies on physical attacks.
There is also theif available, which is consistent damage to say the least.
It's up to you if you feel like using it. Having those two attacks aren't much, but I think it can still excel against Ramos and Clermont while it relies on physical attacks.
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82/119 is pretty damn good and I mentioned the anecdote of it surviving an opposing Tyrantrum Dragon Claw, ~120 base attack 80 BP STAB move, as an example. I disagree that 71 speed is low, in game enemies have minimal investment and you have the benefit of IVs and random EVs gained through playthrough in a fairly even manner which arguably puts you above the base 90 range. My Tyrantrum was rarely outsped by an in-game enemy. The Dig TM was very helpful in rounding out Tyrunt's coverage. That was around the point where it started to catch up stat wise to the point where it could comfortably take on enemies 1v1 and win most of the time, and the Dig TM only added to that.
So I think I see why people like Honedge is decent though not learning Thief and having to wait for Shadow Claw kind of blows.
On the other hand I did not catch Bagon nor Axew. I wanted the latter but it is proving to be a bitch to find outside of hordes (and lollevel7). I did catch Meditite and I plan for Aerodactyl and Gyarados. Meditite isn't appealing to me at the moment, though. Fighting seems kind of mediocre and I really wish it had Psychic STAB that is physical. -_-;
I'll try to use it.
On the other hand I did not catch Bagon nor Axew. I wanted the latter but it is proving to be a bitch to find outside of hordes (and lollevel7). I did catch Meditite and I plan for Aerodactyl and Gyarados. Meditite isn't appealing to me at the moment, though. Fighting seems kind of mediocre and I really wish it had Psychic STAB that is physical. -_-;
I'll try to use it.
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Just beat Grant. Only noteworthy thing for Meditite is OHKOing Araura and that's it. This thing fucking sucks. Hell I would D Rank it if not for having a few niche fiascos.
I want to drop it so bad. Even Gyarados was miles better in Grant's gym. Ffs Aerodactyl helped more.
I want to drop it so bad. Even Gyarados was miles better in Grant's gym. Ffs Aerodactyl helped more.
I felt this way about Tyrunt... So yeah... Apples and Oranges. I believe I am heading north upto the fairy gym atm. Dodrio is still dropping bombs on everything I fight, Butterfree is OK, Blastoise and Chesnaught are pretty good too. Malamar seems a little hit and miss too, but it has more defences than Tyrunt. I think I'm lv 38 with Tyrunt now (I think I am a little over levelled) but its bad :/
Aren't you outspeeding and 2HKOing Tyrunt while being able to take any one of its attacks at full HP?
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrunt Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 42-50 (80.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(lv. 22 Meditite / lv. 25 Tyrunt)
And that's with really exaggerated attack on the Tyrunt.
Just let Gyarados take on Amaura; seems like a wise idea with your team. It's hardly the easiest gym, and you definitely shouldn't expect anyone of note (besides the traded Steelix and, like, Scraggy) to solo it.
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrunt Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 42-50 (80.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(lv. 22 Meditite / lv. 25 Tyrunt)
And that's with really exaggerated attack on the Tyrunt.
Just let Gyarados take on Amaura; seems like a wise idea with your team. It's hardly the easiest gym, and you definitely shouldn't expect anyone of note (besides the traded Steelix and, like, Scraggy) to solo it.
I don't know, L32 Hi Jump Kick is a hell of a nuke. Meditite's typing also makes it a solid fighting-type counter, as it happens to be a psychic-type not struck effectively by dark-type moves that they sometimes pack. In case its 60 base speed isn't enough to outspeed, it can employ Low Sweep to ensure a 2HKO without being 2HKO'd back. You even get Poison Jab to destroy the fairy gym!
Obviously you shouldn't expect it to function like Gyarados or Aerodactyl before its evolution, but I say it's about as good as Azumarill when fully evolved (which is earlier than Tyrunt).
But really, name at least some Pokemon that performs better in the second gym. I run out pretty quickly: Steelix, Scraggy, fully evolved Azu, maybe Simipour, maybe Zangoose and Furfrou, partly Gyarados with some teamwork. Meditite can take either one of the two out and switch back in at full health to deal with the other, unless they decide to attack with the NVE Rock Tomb (doesn't seem likely from what I've understood of AI behaviour).
And obviously I don't. Our definitions of "destroy things" are very different it seems. It may do okay, but lvl 32 is a long wait for HJK and also a long wait for evolution at lvl 37. I don't expect this thing to lag any less than Stunky did for me.
Btw, just because Meditite gets poison job doesn't mean it will instantly destroy the fairy gym. It will only have a chance if it's evolved; and even then, there's an existing chance you'll get outsped and OHKO'ed by Mr. Mime's Dazzling Gleam (keep in mind that Medicham has less bulk than even Starmie).
I think that Doublade and Aegislash shouldn't be in the same tier. Aegislash is a fantastic mixed attacker with Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, and Iron Head. (Automize in the last slot is the way to go IMO) It can, unlike Doublade, OHKO things, use special attacks, take special hits, and hold an item that's not Eviolite. So it can use a Lucky Egg or Amulet coin and still be viable. By the time you get the Dusk Stone you'll have everything you need anyway. Doublade served me very well until then, but it had a hard time KOing things and even with Eviolite was awful against Special Attackers. I was very glad to finally use the Dusk Stone. I nominate Aegslash for S tier and Doublade for A tier if we're splitting them.
Also, Tyrunt required some babying for a while, but it helped that it had three 90 BP moves in Rock Tomb, Dragon Tail, and Strong Jaw Bite. After evolution, though, Tyrantrum became the strongest member of my team bar none. It's well worth the wait, just like Honedge pre-shadow claw is a drag but worth it after Glittering Cave.
One more thing: in any discussion about Bulbasaur, I can't believe nobody talked about this, Nature Power is a Godsend. When all you have is Venoshock and Razor Leaf, Nature Power quite frequently becomes Energy Ball, a 90 BP STAB move that kills all at that point in the game. Having Power Gem in caves is also nice.
Also, Tyrunt required some babying for a while, but it helped that it had three 90 BP moves in Rock Tomb, Dragon Tail, and Strong Jaw Bite. After evolution, though, Tyrantrum became the strongest member of my team bar none. It's well worth the wait, just like Honedge pre-shadow claw is a drag but worth it after Glittering Cave.
One more thing: in any discussion about Bulbasaur, I can't believe nobody talked about this, Nature Power is a Godsend. When all you have is Venoshock and Razor Leaf, Nature Power quite frequently becomes Energy Ball, a 90 BP STAB move that kills all at that point in the game. Having Power Gem in caves is also nice.
What does Stunky have to do with Meditite? Meditite has the highest attack among the first tier forms, and nearly always a STAB to back it up.
Yeah, I wouldn't try switching into Mr. Mime because of the speed disadvantage, but Sylveon makes for good prey for Medicham's Poison Jab off its huge attack. Against Mime, I wouldn't recommend either trying to withstand Gleam or run Calm Mind just to tank the hit (you do have the moveslot and could re-teach your 2 other TM moves accordingly, sans HJK which should probably be preserved). Starmie's not an entirely terrible Pokemon defensively by the way.
IMHO, Nature Power is too situational, and it's difficult to say whether it's more deserving of the moveslot than more consistent Sleep Powder, Bulldoze and Swords Dance. One super-effective attack or two per dungeon isn't what I call impressive. Some Pokemon, like Florges' earlier forms, don't really have anything better to use for a while.
Why are Doublade and Aegislash in the same tier anyway? This isn't the case when one version of the game is unable to obtain a certain form, or that it requires trading to fully evolve. Tier Honedge assuming the best possible route for the mon (depends on how much attention you want to pay to speedrunning I suppose).
Yeah, I wouldn't try switching into Mr. Mime because of the speed disadvantage, but Sylveon makes for good prey for Medicham's Poison Jab off its huge attack. Against Mime, I wouldn't recommend either trying to withstand Gleam or run Calm Mind just to tank the hit (you do have the moveslot and could re-teach your 2 other TM moves accordingly, sans HJK which should probably be preserved). Starmie's not an entirely terrible Pokemon defensively by the way.
IMHO, Nature Power is too situational, and it's difficult to say whether it's more deserving of the moveslot than more consistent Sleep Powder, Bulldoze and Swords Dance. One super-effective attack or two per dungeon isn't what I call impressive. Some Pokemon, like Florges' earlier forms, don't really have anything better to use for a while.
Why are Doublade and Aegislash in the same tier anyway? This isn't the case when one version of the game is unable to obtain a certain form, or that it requires trading to fully evolve. Tier Honedge assuming the best possible route for the mon (depends on how much attention you want to pay to speedrunning I suppose).
Doublade and Aegislash are each perfectly viable on their own, and play quite differently. Doublade is nigh-untouchable on the physical side after Eviolite and doesn't rely on King's Shield to tank hits, but it lacks Leftovers recovery and isn't very bulky on the special side. Aegislash is stronger, tougher on the Special side, but dependence on King's Shield gives it a bad case of 4MSS. Eviolite is also more easily accessible than Dusk Stone. I think there's more than enough difference between the two to separate them, just like ZardX and ZardY.
Meditite had a really crappy nature (Relaxed lol) which kind of boned it. I should've left Amaura to Gyarados but I guess Meditite overall does meh in the second gym. It gets pummeled by Lunatone and Solrock trainer and it can't do jack shit to Crustle while it can hit with neutral Feint Attack at least (which not powerful but still kind of stings). I just found it really underperforming overall and waiting for Jump Kick is even worse when you're stuck with... Rock Smash and PuP.
In-game battles are generally not the long drawn out matches for Leftovers to matter much, though it is of course nice, especially on Pokemon with large amounts of HP such as Snorlax.
The main similarity between Doublade and Aegislash... is that they exist in the same exact shape for two thirds or so of the game, and when "they" are not the same anymore they still fulfill some of the same functions with the same typing and physical coverage moves (except Aegislash can pick up special moves just in case).
Sure enough, they're different but is the difference enough to warrant a tier difference? Whatever tactical and diversity advantages Aegislash boasts are largely nullified by having to pay an extra trip to an optional cave to evolve it.
Same with the two Zards - they're different, but they're still about equally strong to be in the same tier.
Gym battles are just some of the battles you fight though, right? Some dual typings make it tougher for some mons and easier for others. I think we might also pay too much attention to how our tiered Pokemon deal with things like Mightyena and Swalot when there are obviously tougher and a lot more abundant threats around (like every evolved or unevolving fighter beginning with Connection Cave).
Meditite gets Return immediately (can be caught with a Luxury Ball too), Rock Tomb for much needed coverage after the 2nd gym, and Low Sweep immediately after PuP. Poison Jab also seems like a big deal at this point, seeing some use in the grass-type gym for example. I'm sure Eviolite Meditite can function properly in the midgame portion of the game, though I still need to use it myself.
Bagon: B Tier
Availability: Fairly early in route 8 before the second gym at level 14, evolves to Shelgon in level 30 and to the poweful Salamance at level 50.
Stats:Bagon....well pretty sucks actually, Shelgon it's more viable and can be pretty sturdy on the physical side paired with Eviolite,but is slow and Salamance...is awesome and can run a mixed set very efectively.
Typing:Dragon is a good type overall,their weakness are not so common...just the Creepy Tale girls and some random pokemon ranger or ace trainer with ice moves can cause trouble, but it resist Water,Fire,Grasss and Electric,wich is good, now Dragon/Flying makes it better,now can resist fighting attacks and got inmunity to Ground moves.
Movepool: Bagon and Shelgon early level up moves are pretty shallow,the most notable moves are Dragonbreath,Zen Headbutt and Crunch and for early coverage and try to make some good damage in TM you got Rock Tomb, Shadow Claw,Aerial Ace,Rock Smash and Hone Claws for setting up, they can learn other useful moves like Flamethower,Dragon Claw and Rock Slide, but by the time you get them you should have a Salamence or very close to it. For Salamance, it learns Fly when evolves in level 50, and gets Stone Edge, Earthquake and a better Special Attack to use Flamethower and Fire Blast.
Major Battles:
Grant- No, Amaura will just kill you and Tyrunt resist your attacks at least you got Dragonbreath or Shelgon.
Korrina- If you already got a Shelgon, equip the Eviolite and use Hone Claws to sweep her with Aerial Ace. But Bagon can't resist very well the hits.
Ramos- Jumpluff and Weepinbell can't do very much against you,just Gogoat can cause you trouble.
Clemont- You can easily take care Emolga, but Magneton and Heliolisk have a very good Special Attack so be wary of that.
Valerie- Nothing to do here.
Olympia- You should have a Salamence at this point, if you have it, just use Crunch and see how everything dies, but if you don't Shelgon can be murdered by Psychic easily.
Wulfric- With a mixed set with Fire Blast and Rock Slide you got a chance if you manages to OHKO his pokemon with the appropiate move...otherwise you're dead.
Shauna- Kills easily Delcatty and her starter,be aware of Goodra.
Tierno- It can't be troublesome...you got the type advantage.
Trevor- Be careful with Florges it has Moonblast.
Calem/Serena- At first they will give you trouble,but when you get Mence you can handle their teams very well.
Lysandre- Salamence resist Mienshao HJK and OHKOes with Fly,handles Honchkrow and Pyroar pretty good, but Gyarados has Outrage so it's not very good idea. If you're stuck with a Shelgon at this point, it's going to be dead weight.
Malva- You got Earthquake...so she's dead, RSlide for Talonflame.
Siebold- Not so good, every member of his team has a super-effective move againts Mence.
Wikstrom- With Earthquake and Flamethower/ Fire Blast you got his team covered.
Drasna- You may be able to OHKO her team with Dragon Claw, but it's risky that they kill you with Dragon Moves too.
Additional Comments: Level up Bagon can be troublesome it dies quickly and you have to reach level 30 to get a more decent Shelgon, Shelgon is more workable is capable of tank hits and hits harder, but even with Eviolite Special Attacks will let him down and Salamence...it's awesome, a very good sweeper with amazing coverage and with Intimidate it can tank some Physical super-effective hits very well. The major flaw is that this dragon family doesn't get Dragon Dance and learn Dragon Claw(Their best STAB) very late. But Salamence has very good stats and a wide movepool (at least for the E4) so you got a very good and dangerous pokemon.
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More proposed tierings yay!
Carbink: N/A -> Limbo (D/E-Tier) (Note: For now)
Clamperl: N/A -> F-Tier (Note: This is Clamperl without trading; Huntail & Gorebyss are tiered separately. I understand that you can get a Deep Sea Tooth for it to start blasting things, but...)
Corsola: N/A -> F-Tier
Cryogonal: N/A -> D-Tier
Emolga: N/A -> D-Tier
Hoppip: N/A -> E-Tier
Shuckle: N/A -> F-Tier
If anyone wants to know my reasoning behind each change, I will expand on if needed. Carbink probably needs more clarification here, but despite its poor offences & poor speed, it is still able to handle a few of the major battles including Team Flare, as well as do a very decent job against two Elite Four Members. I personally think it is probably more E-Tier than D-Tier, but some users I have talked to on IRC have floated the possibility of D-Tier Carbink, which could work, though I doubt it.
No objections means they get placed along with whatever else gets tiered next update.
Carbink: N/A -> Limbo (D/E-Tier) (Note: For now)
Clamperl: N/A -> F-Tier (Note: This is Clamperl without trading; Huntail & Gorebyss are tiered separately. I understand that you can get a Deep Sea Tooth for it to start blasting things, but...)
Corsola: N/A -> F-Tier
Cryogonal: N/A -> D-Tier
Emolga: N/A -> D-Tier
Hoppip: N/A -> E-Tier
Shuckle: N/A -> F-Tier
If anyone wants to know my reasoning behind each change, I will expand on if needed. Carbink probably needs more clarification here, but despite its poor offences & poor speed, it is still able to handle a few of the major battles including Team Flare, as well as do a very decent job against two Elite Four Members. I personally think it is probably more E-Tier than D-Tier, but some users I have talked to on IRC have floated the possibility of D-Tier Carbink, which could work, though I doubt it.
No objections means they get placed along with whatever else gets tiered next update.
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How about C tier for Emolga? It's fast and has good midgame matchups against Korrina and Ramos. Natural L30 Acrobatics keeps it usable for a little while longer. It's no Hawlucha, but it sounds worthy of being just a tier below. That bad bulk makes it hard to find use for it later on though, especially when offence isn't that impressive aside from the great STABs it gets.
Honestly were it for EXP Share I probably would be a little easier on Meditite, but I think it is really a C Tier Pokemon overall. Once it gets PuP and Low Sweep it goes smoothly, but Return / Rock Smash only does so much and Meditite's Atk is still kind of ehh until it levels pretty far up. I'm not saying the lack of EXP Share overall is bad but it really affects tiering of Pokemon overall.
For example, sturdier Pokemon really get the a-ok rating from me. Gyarados and Honedge have really been doing great because of their natural durability, whereas offensive mons like Aerodactyl do fine but, on a rare occasion, slip a little bit (though I just got the Mega Evolution too). What's worse is, for example, the Lucario you receive is Level 32 - that's about 5-7 levels above my teammates. And I'm raising 5. This game really is built for 4 without EXP share IMO and I'm going to adjust to it as well. I just shoved Braxien out of my team - he's starting to really get lackluster.
For example, sturdier Pokemon really get the a-ok rating from me. Gyarados and Honedge have really been doing great because of their natural durability, whereas offensive mons like Aerodactyl do fine but, on a rare occasion, slip a little bit (though I just got the Mega Evolution too). What's worse is, for example, the Lucario you receive is Level 32 - that's about 5-7 levels above my teammates. And I'm raising 5. This game really is built for 4 without EXP share IMO and I'm going to adjust to it as well. I just shoved Braxien out of my team - he's starting to really get lackluster.
I'm currently using Cubone in X and I'm actually really surprised at how well it is doing. I did use Vivillon with Compoundeyes to get one with a Thick Club, and on my first try, it held one. IT is insanely powerful 2HKOing almost everything and it has good bulk too. The downside is obviously its poor speed, but it tanks hits like nothing else early game (even without eviolite which you sholdnt be giving to Cubone). As of right now I honestly think it's worthy of B-tier, but I have yet to fight Ramos and I know that's not a good matchup for it, but it's still so good at what it does.
Having to play with a small team does hurt walls a bit - namely, they're no longer as good at walling. My Snorlax couldn't do anything against Sylveon for example, getting 3HKO'd and requiring a Hyper Potion every other turn, and recently it was getting owned by Mamoswine in the final gym.
I'd probably continue playing the game just to compare Meditite's performance when it gets PuP/Low Sweep and finally when it gets HJK, evolves and gets some more coverage moves from the relearner. I can imagine you wouldn't think too highly of it just based on its early performance, but it's also because three of the other mons you're using are all borderline S-tier and definite As, so it obviously won't compare too favourably. Is Meditite/cham any worse than Squirtle, Tyrunt or Ralts? I don't imagine that to be the case, really.
I've played the game with Aero with a much inferior team than what you're using, and it practically carried the team in every situation where I was having problem. It was crazy how much I could rely on it to avoid game overs. You'd probably appreciate it more if your party also weren't as good, I think.
As for what the game's meant to be played as... Don't forget that there have always been wild/event Pokemon higher-levelled than the party. Dugtrio in RBY, Red Gyarados, many of the legendaries... Lucario is pretty much a legendary in this one too.
If you're able to keep your Cubone unevolved for Ramos (could happen unintentionally with a large/slowly growing team), Grass Knot's power will be only 20 with its low weight. It seems to have good bulk against the other attacks. Or you could evolve it to be hit by super-effective Grass Knots of 60 base power.
Going thru my Y playthrough, and once I got Honedge I just slapped Eviolite on it and havent looked back. You get Gyroball and Rocksmash fairly early, which makes an SD set very easy. Doublade is just a godsend, even moreso than Charizard Y has been (legit only every use char y in Sky battles). His bulk with Eviolite is redic, and is taking stab dark moves from stuff his level without batting an eye while either SDing for a OHKO, or just str8 up OHKOing everything with Sacredsword/Ironhead/Shadowsneak.
My doublade is Quiet nature too, I planned to Evo him into aegislash at some point, but as it stands Doublade is so good I might just keep him from Evolving.
Definite S tier.
My doublade is Quiet nature too, I planned to Evo him into aegislash at some point, but as it stands Doublade is so good I might just keep him from Evolving.
Definite S tier.
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