Not true at all. The reason why there are less scarf mons is because of the amount of priority in the metagame right now. If you look at some of the most popular sweepers and high usage mons most of them have priority. Scarf is much less useful when there is more priority. Also mons like garchomp and rotom-wash that ran scarf sets more commonly in the past are fixating on single sets to check the likes of mega kangaskhan and talonflame.
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Other XY OU Team's Staples post#61
- Thread starter Reymedy
- Start date
- Status
Asek
Banned deucer.
TBH I don't get all the talonflame preparation i see, ttar is pretty abundant atm and its relatively weak in general in my eyes, sure CB talonflame hits a shit ton on unprepared offensive teams but with sand rush boosted exca and other really powerful prios running around most offensive teams just have to keep sr up (not hard with HO) and talonflame will die to anything relatively strong after 1 round of sr + recoil. Needless to say i agree with everything u say especially the point about scarfers, with exca + ttar (hippo) being so conveniant atm exca can be a spinner, stealth rock setter,revenge killer, sweeper pretty much anything you want it to be atm (im partial to SR / spin/ EQ / rock slide set myself)
Asides from that ive noticed that having something around to sponge status is becoming more essential. with the buffed WoW and rotom-w being everywhere, having a starmie or guts user around is incredibly useful due to the fact that a lot of people on the ladder use defensive orientated mons on random teams and even good players will often use teams that focus on status spam, noticeably WoW
Well I don't play either Talonflame, TTar or Excadrill on any of my teams. But just making sure that Talonflame cannot revengekill every sweeper I bring in should be something to have in mind as it's so popular right now. But I haven't had any problem with it as it faints
TTar or Hippo + Exca is a really good combo for a scarfer so I'll give them credit for that. But the item Choice Scarf is what I haven't seen much of in this gen. The only Scarfed pokemons I've seen are Genesect and one or two Rotom-W with Scarf and Trick.
I have to agree with having something to sponge WoW and don't killed by Rotom-W Hydro Pump is something I have in mind whenever I make a new team. WoW is really common those days so not preparing for it is just stupid.
Some good points have been made. I'll do a quick recap :
- Ghosts are the new Dragons.
They seem to have replaced Dragons at the top right now. Offensively, there is one single resistance, and one immunity to withstand their attacks. Needless to say, that this immunity we're talking about, is arguably not so relevant. Normal type has always been pretty disapointing, you don't play a Normal pokemon because of the possiblities its typing could bring to your team. No, you play it because the pokemon is good in itself (
). If you check last gen OU list, there is ONE SINGLE Normal pokemon, which is
(definitely NOT the most appealing pokemon in this tier).
Granted, Dark pokemons are another issue. However, this typing never been really appealing either in competitive play. Sure, there is
, but the big boy must feel pretty lonely (last GEN, he was alone in OU, with
..).
,
,
,
,
are all trying to join the party though. The Fighting weakness during BW really hold them down, let's see what they can bring to the table with their new buffs.
In a nutshell, the offensive power is almost compulsory in order to break defensive cores easier + being able to spin block (goes with the increased Hazard Control) has always been a staple to classic defensive teams = Ghost the closest thing to a 6GEN new staple.
- As a result : The need to have a Dark type in order to respond to the aforementioned "new staple" ?
I'm not sure about this one. Because as I said, Dark types never been that good. And the Dark type has always been a double-edged sword since the defensive side of this typing is really underwhelming. I mean, Steel was everywhere to counter Dragons because, anyway, Steel is one hell of a typing. I really doubt that the same thing will happen to Dark, but this is questionnable.
So, other things that are not gonna be staples (at least not right now) , but are currently really good :
- I don't see Priority being a Staple. Yea, it's everywhere, and it was also the case last GEN (
,
,
everywhere ?
,
,
,
,
lurking in their shadows). You can compare it to, say, recovery moves in 3rd GEN : they were really present, but they were not staple either. Checking Terrakion in 5th Gen was hella hard if you didn't have
or
, and still, they were no staple (but they were top tier for sure).
I mean, priorities are THAT good, but you don't NEED them in order to build a viable team (it's not Stealth Rock).
* Many people pushed for Priorities as a staple. In order to make it a staple, you could try to find pokemons/teams etc that could (almost) ONLY be defeated with the help of Priorities = making it (almost) mandatory to run.
For instance, in GEN5, having 2 Water resistances became a staple due to the cheer presence of Rain teams. You could not deal with them unless you had at least one solid check, and a replacement (if your solid check got overloaded with damage, or lured, which was very likely to happen).
- Same goes for Status. It's present (and it has always been the case), and good, but I don't feel like you NEED it at all cost. It could become a staple if everybody runs it, and runs a status absorber : same way everybody runs SR + a way to deal with SR RS/Defog/FastTaunt. We didnt reach that point yet in my opinion.
I don't believe that people are thinking "oh shit I forgot to put Will-O-Wisp somewhere !" yet. And about how to deal with it, there are so many ways to actually deal with it (Fire type, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce, Heal Bell, Guts, Natural Cure etc.. or just a pokemon that doesn't care about it).
- Coverage moves shift. Yea, the set of moves you can use for coverage will probably shift. But it will never create a "staple" in my opinion.
Granted, Ghost + Fighting is perfect coverage. Granted, Dark has a good coverage. But not to the point where you HAVE TO run a Dark move to have a viable team (same way you never HAD TO run BoltBeam on something to have a viable team).
Knock Off is something interesting though, because the move offers both incredible utility, and power (good BP if the opponent is holding an item, and good coverage). So I "could" see this move becoming a staple and shift the Metagame given how interesting it is to run it (but it's not the case at the moment).
To sum up : I'll Edit the OP with the GEN6 staples we've found so far. Keep in mind that the discussion is supposed to improve it. So keep it going, nothing is set in stone.
I'm also doing a quick note about
(as I did for
), to illustrate the Ghost staple.
PS : I've been quick to add Ghost because I felt like it was the closest thing at the moment.
- Ghosts are the new Dragons.
They seem to have replaced Dragons at the top right now. Offensively, there is one single resistance, and one immunity to withstand their attacks. Needless to say, that this immunity we're talking about, is arguably not so relevant. Normal type has always been pretty disapointing, you don't play a Normal pokemon because of the possiblities its typing could bring to your team. No, you play it because the pokemon is good in itself (
Granted, Dark pokemons are another issue. However, this typing never been really appealing either in competitive play. Sure, there is
In a nutshell, the offensive power is almost compulsory in order to break defensive cores easier + being able to spin block (goes with the increased Hazard Control) has always been a staple to classic defensive teams = Ghost the closest thing to a 6GEN new staple.
- As a result : The need to have a Dark type in order to respond to the aforementioned "new staple" ?
I'm not sure about this one. Because as I said, Dark types never been that good. And the Dark type has always been a double-edged sword since the defensive side of this typing is really underwhelming. I mean, Steel was everywhere to counter Dragons because, anyway, Steel is one hell of a typing. I really doubt that the same thing will happen to Dark, but this is questionnable.
So, other things that are not gonna be staples (at least not right now) , but are currently really good :
- I don't see Priority being a Staple. Yea, it's everywhere, and it was also the case last GEN (
I mean, priorities are THAT good, but you don't NEED them in order to build a viable team (it's not Stealth Rock).
* Many people pushed for Priorities as a staple. In order to make it a staple, you could try to find pokemons/teams etc that could (almost) ONLY be defeated with the help of Priorities = making it (almost) mandatory to run.
For instance, in GEN5, having 2 Water resistances became a staple due to the cheer presence of Rain teams. You could not deal with them unless you had at least one solid check, and a replacement (if your solid check got overloaded with damage, or lured, which was very likely to happen).
- Same goes for Status. It's present (and it has always been the case), and good, but I don't feel like you NEED it at all cost. It could become a staple if everybody runs it, and runs a status absorber : same way everybody runs SR + a way to deal with SR RS/Defog/FastTaunt. We didnt reach that point yet in my opinion.
I don't believe that people are thinking "oh shit I forgot to put Will-O-Wisp somewhere !" yet. And about how to deal with it, there are so many ways to actually deal with it (Fire type, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce, Heal Bell, Guts, Natural Cure etc.. or just a pokemon that doesn't care about it).
- Coverage moves shift. Yea, the set of moves you can use for coverage will probably shift. But it will never create a "staple" in my opinion.
Granted, Ghost + Fighting is perfect coverage. Granted, Dark has a good coverage. But not to the point where you HAVE TO run a Dark move to have a viable team (same way you never HAD TO run BoltBeam on something to have a viable team).
Knock Off is something interesting though, because the move offers both incredible utility, and power (good BP if the opponent is holding an item, and good coverage). So I "could" see this move becoming a staple and shift the Metagame given how interesting it is to run it (but it's not the case at the moment).
To sum up : I'll Edit the OP with the GEN6 staples we've found so far. Keep in mind that the discussion is supposed to improve it. So keep it going, nothing is set in stone.
I'm also doing a quick note about
PS : I've been quick to add Ghost because I felt like it was the closest thing at the moment.
Knock Off has definitely gone up in popularity; in fact, as you've said, one could see this move becoming a staple in the near future.
I didn't see anything really referring to a "mega" being considered a staple. Many have brought up that "there's no reason NOT to run a Mega" usually because they have so many merits to work with (Kangaskhan, Lucario, Medicham, Mawile, Banette, Venusaur...the list goes on). Most of the Megas used are very good Pokemon and they're typically the focus of your team...unless you're running a Mega-Bluff Team where you use all Pokemon that COULD Mega Evolve, but none of them do and it keeps your opponent guessing...yeah, I did it once. Worked out well.
I can see why you listed things as "not staples", as many of them were always in the metagames of previous Generations, but they weren't completely necessary. Coverage moves is more or less a "thing" and not really staple. Specific coverage moves aren't really necessary and if you do, it's not because it's a complete staple. I ran Terrakion with Zen Headbutt as a failsafe for Gengar, the Nidos, and Toxicroak. Why not Earthquake? Gengar was in quite a few teams at the time. That's my logic...don't judge me. o.o
This is, of course, considering that "staples" is just something used as a general case, not really being used when describing specific teams. Toxic and Will-O-Wisp might be a Stall Staple, but what about Hyper Offense? Not all teams are dependant on wear and tear from status; it's more from Spikes and Stealth Rock before the attack, which I think will remain staples throughout Gen VI despite Excadrill's Rapid Spin and ALL OF THE DEFOG!
I would say that Dark-Types will become a staple simply because of the Ghost-Type rise. Normal-Types are...normally lacking unless their name is Kangaskhan (and to a lesser extent, Pink Blobs, Snorlax, and Porygon2), while Dark-Types carry many merits like STAB Pursuit, some carry Sucker Punch, STAB Knock Off, and many "prediction" moves that can play mind games with your opponent. Bisharp and Tyranitar are the two big Dark-Types I've seen around and, every now and again, a Hydreigon pops up (I even run Scarfdreigon to some success). Their natural merits are what makes them good, especially when coupled WITH a Ghost-Type on your team to cover for weaknesses (Sableye? I more mean two different Pokemon, even a third with a different typing).
I think an Electric-Type, as odd sounding as it is, might rise, but as far as becoming a staple, that's up for grabs. Electric-Types have the advantage of resisting Flying-Type moves like Talonflame's Brave Bird, immunity to Paralysis, and only possessing a single weakness when solo (but why would you run a Mono-Electric Type?). Rotom-W is the biggest example of this; with access to Levitate, the ability to check many Pokemon, and even a weakness that isn't used often, the washing machine is on top of the world. Magnezone still carries Magnet Pull to trap Steel-Types, but with Hidden Power's nerf, it's no longer the feared trapper it once was (even IF HP Fire hits SE against Scizor). It has an immunity to both Paralysis and Toxic, though!
Once again, that's all that's on my mind for now.
I didn't see anything really referring to a "mega" being considered a staple. Many have brought up that "there's no reason NOT to run a Mega" usually because they have so many merits to work with (Kangaskhan, Lucario, Medicham, Mawile, Banette, Venusaur...the list goes on). Most of the Megas used are very good Pokemon and they're typically the focus of your team...unless you're running a Mega-Bluff Team where you use all Pokemon that COULD Mega Evolve, but none of them do and it keeps your opponent guessing...yeah, I did it once. Worked out well.
I can see why you listed things as "not staples", as many of them were always in the metagames of previous Generations, but they weren't completely necessary. Coverage moves is more or less a "thing" and not really staple. Specific coverage moves aren't really necessary and if you do, it's not because it's a complete staple. I ran Terrakion with Zen Headbutt as a failsafe for Gengar, the Nidos, and Toxicroak. Why not Earthquake? Gengar was in quite a few teams at the time. That's my logic...don't judge me. o.o
This is, of course, considering that "staples" is just something used as a general case, not really being used when describing specific teams. Toxic and Will-O-Wisp might be a Stall Staple, but what about Hyper Offense? Not all teams are dependant on wear and tear from status; it's more from Spikes and Stealth Rock before the attack, which I think will remain staples throughout Gen VI despite Excadrill's Rapid Spin and ALL OF THE DEFOG!
I would say that Dark-Types will become a staple simply because of the Ghost-Type rise. Normal-Types are...normally lacking unless their name is Kangaskhan (and to a lesser extent, Pink Blobs, Snorlax, and Porygon2), while Dark-Types carry many merits like STAB Pursuit, some carry Sucker Punch, STAB Knock Off, and many "prediction" moves that can play mind games with your opponent. Bisharp and Tyranitar are the two big Dark-Types I've seen around and, every now and again, a Hydreigon pops up (I even run Scarfdreigon to some success). Their natural merits are what makes them good, especially when coupled WITH a Ghost-Type on your team to cover for weaknesses (Sableye? I more mean two different Pokemon, even a third with a different typing).
I think an Electric-Type, as odd sounding as it is, might rise, but as far as becoming a staple, that's up for grabs. Electric-Types have the advantage of resisting Flying-Type moves like Talonflame's Brave Bird, immunity to Paralysis, and only possessing a single weakness when solo (but why would you run a Mono-Electric Type?). Rotom-W is the biggest example of this; with access to Levitate, the ability to check many Pokemon, and even a weakness that isn't used often, the washing machine is on top of the world. Magnezone still carries Magnet Pull to trap Steel-Types, but with Hidden Power's nerf, it's no longer the feared trapper it once was (even IF HP Fire hits SE against Scizor). It has an immunity to both Paralysis and Toxic, though!
Once again, that's all that's on my mind for now.
This should get sticky as I find this to become very usefull for newer and more experinced players in the future, good job Remedy!
Anyway stuff that should be staple this gen might be to early to tell, but there is some stuff that I have noticed to this date and ill go in details with this now.
Also everybody here has to remember this is my opinion, and this is then of course discussable as their can be stuff I have forgot to take in account, but also this is stuff that I find as a staple for now at least I do use those myself maby except the Scarfer one, but then I usually use something like Sand Rush Exca, anyway agree, disagree, discuss and have fun, and yet again great topic Remedy.
Anyway stuff that should be staple this gen might be to early to tell, but there is some stuff that I have noticed to this date and ill go in details with this now.
- Flying Resist
- Scarfer
- Ground Resist
Also everybody here has to remember this is my opinion, and this is then of course discussable as their can be stuff I have forgot to take in account, but also this is stuff that I find as a staple for now at least I do use those myself maby except the Scarfer one, but then I usually use something like Sand Rush Exca, anyway agree, disagree, discuss and have fun, and yet again great topic Remedy.
Last edited:
I've read some of the post and I was surprised that no one actually mentioned gliscor...
Gliscor carries electrik immunity, EQ immunity a good check for talon flame and a good physical wall with toxic heal. After the pokebank comes out glicor even gets stealth rock and it can learn knock off for some utility. whats more? it sits on a comfortable 95 base speed which helps it outspeed key pokemon and knock off Items.
It's one of the best checks to life orb lucario which won't be common I guess with mega lucario running around but still... It can also knock off scope lens from kingdra which can be huge as gliscor is not affected from sticky web. If not kingdra can effortlessly knock out your whole team. It can even toxic stall with the classic protect sub spam with toxic orb recovery and the speed helps it a lot too. Overall glicor is one pokemon that is very versatile and the EQ immunity is perticularly usefull when you are running a team with EQ weakness which can be more common than you can imagine. And unlike Rotom-W , It isn't death food for moldbreaking Excadrill. Oh and hyper cutter gliscor gets defog from gen 4..... yeah don't use that.
Gliscor carries electrik immunity, EQ immunity a good check for talon flame and a good physical wall with toxic heal. After the pokebank comes out glicor even gets stealth rock and it can learn knock off for some utility. whats more? it sits on a comfortable 95 base speed which helps it outspeed key pokemon and knock off Items.
It's one of the best checks to life orb lucario which won't be common I guess with mega lucario running around but still... It can also knock off scope lens from kingdra which can be huge as gliscor is not affected from sticky web. If not kingdra can effortlessly knock out your whole team. It can even toxic stall with the classic protect sub spam with toxic orb recovery and the speed helps it a lot too. Overall glicor is one pokemon that is very versatile and the EQ immunity is perticularly usefull when you are running a team with EQ weakness which can be more common than you can imagine. And unlike Rotom-W , It isn't death food for moldbreaking Excadrill. Oh and hyper cutter gliscor gets defog from gen 4..... yeah don't use that.
Gliscor is amazing this gen, it's so annoying to kill and it has so many things it can do. Roost, Toxic, Sub, Knock Off, Stealth Rock…Rotom-W's popularity sucks for it though, it pretty much always forces it out.
No, I really haven't seen rotom force gliscor out, since the majority of gliscor simply substall out all the hydro pumps.
Even for stall, I'm finding that one pokemon that can outpace 112 max speed/max nature speed is a great asset. Lucario is very deadly and sometimes there is very little that can take a hit. With his lightning quick speed, he's a monster to take down if you are in the late game with weakened pokemon. I've been outpacing it with pokemon that can either take one hit and priority or OHKO it on that hit. Either that, or some really nasty strong mach punch from breloom, (remember, Talonflame counts as base 112 or above).
Even for stall, I'm finding that one pokemon that can outpace 112 max speed/max nature speed is a great asset. Lucario is very deadly and sometimes there is very little that can take a hit. With his lightning quick speed, he's a monster to take down if you are in the late game with weakened pokemon. I've been outpacing it with pokemon that can either take one hit and priority or OHKO it on that hit. Either that, or some really nasty strong mach punch from breloom, (remember, Talonflame counts as base 112 or above).
I think there's a misconception. People like myself weren't saying that carrying status moves were a necessary staple, but having something that can either absorb or remove status was a necessity, less your whole team be crippled by priority Thunder Wave and Will - O - Wisp.Some good points have been made. I'll do a quick recap :
- Ghosts are the new Dragons.
They seem to have replaced Dragons at the top right now. Offensively, there is one single resistance, and one immunity to withstand their attacks. Needless to say, that this immunity we're talking about, is arguably not so relevant. Normal type has always been pretty disapointing, you don't play a Normal pokemon because of the possiblities its typing could bring to your team. No, you play it because the pokemon is good in itself (). If you check last gen OU list, there is ONE SINGLE Normal pokemon, which is(definitely NOT the most appealing pokemon in this tier).
Granted, Dark pokemons are another issue. However, this typing never been really appealing either in competitive play. Sure, there is, but the big boy must feel pretty lonely (last GEN, he was alone in OU, with..).
,,,,are all trying to join the party though. The Fighting weakness during BW really hold them down, let's see what they can bring to the table with their new buffs.
In a nutshell, the offensive power is almost compulsory in order to break defensive cores easier + being able to spin block (goes with the increased Hazard Control) has always been a staple to classic defensive teams = Ghost the closest thing to a 6GEN new staple.
- As a result : The need to have a Dark type in order to respond to the aforementioned "new staple" ?
I'm not sure about this one. Because as I said, Dark types never been that good. And the Dark type has always been a double-edged sword since the defensive side of this typing is really underwhelming. I mean, Steel was everywhere to counter Dragons because, anyway, Steel is one hell of a typing. I really doubt that the same thing will happen to Dark, but this is questionnable.
So, other things that are not gonna be staples (at least not right now) , but are currently really good :
- I don't see Priority being a Staple. Yea, it's everywhere, and it was also the case last GEN (,,everywhere ?,,,,lurking in their shadows). You can compare it to, say, recovery moves in 3rd GEN : they were really present, but they were not staple either. Checking Terrakion in 5th Gen was hella hard if you didn't haveor, and still, they were no staple (but they were top tier for sure).
I mean, priorities are THAT good, but you don't NEED them in order to build a viable team (it's not Stealth Rock).
* Many people pushed for Priorities as a staple. In order to make it a staple, you could try to find pokemons/teams etc that could (almost) ONLY be defeated with the help of Priorities = making it (almost) mandatory to run.
For instance, in GEN5, having 2 Water resistances became a staple due to the cheer presence of Rain teams. You could not deal with them unless you had at least one solid check, and a replacement (if your solid check got overloaded with damage, or lured, which was very likely to happen).
- Same goes for Status. It's present (and it has always been the case), and good, but I don't feel like you NEED it at all cost. It could become a staple if everybody runs it, and runs a status absorber : same way everybody runs SR + a way to deal with SR RS/Defog/FastTaunt. We didnt reach that point yet in my opinion.
I don't believe that people are thinking "oh shit I forgot to put Will-O-Wisp somewhere !" yet. And about how to deal with it, there are so many ways to actually deal with it (Fire type, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce, Heal Bell, Guts, Natural Cure etc.. or just a pokemon that doesn't care about it).
- Coverage moves shift. Yea, the set of moves you can use for coverage will probably shift. But it will never create a "staple" in my opinion.
Granted, Ghost + Fighting is perfect coverage. Granted, Dark has a good coverage. But not to the point where you HAVE TO run a Dark move to have a viable team (same way you never HAD TO run BoltBeam on something to have a viable team).
Knock Off is something interesting though, because the move offers both incredible utility, and power (good BP if the opponent is holding an item, and good coverage). So I "could" see this move becoming a staple and shift the Metagame given how interesting it is to run it (but it's not the case at the moment).
To sum up : I'll Edit the OP with the GEN6 staples we've found so far. Keep in mind that the discussion is supposed to improve it. So keep it going, nothing is set in stone.
I'm also doing a quick note about(as I did for), to illustrate the Ghost staple.
PS : I've been quick to add Ghost because I felt like it was the closest thing at the moment.
I actually haven't seen a lot of Gliscors running Sub, though maybe that's just me. Scarf Rotom beats it either way though, it can't Sub fast enough.
Yes you can, and I applaud anyone who does so. But since just about every team I've encountered that put up any fight at all had a mega, I think it counts. I've seen far more teams that lack a ghost type, so I think its worth considering a mega as a staple (whether it is or not needs to be discussed more, but with their higher than average power, I think they are)
ill be surprised if wobbuffet doesn't make a return this gen with all the hyper offense. trap a pivot/tank, encore it, and you could win the game right there getting a free +2 for your pinsir or lucario or whatever. really limits balanced teams.
I will probably get a lot of heat for this. But here's my nomination for a staple
UtilityMon (read: PRANKSTER) Counter/Check.
Gen 6 has seen not so subtle attempts to nerf the offensive nature of the metagame.
Not surprisingly these are utility mons which are the backbones of any bulky offense or HO team usually providing support in form of hazards and status. Fairies are also excellent clerics with Wish passing and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, and finally the megas can themselves take part in the offense banwagon as tanks, like Mega-TTar and Bulky Roost Mega-Scizor.
Nowadays the standard method of overwhelming a single check counter with multiple offensive pokemon of the same role is no longer a consistent strategy to play with all these new threats which can easily stomach their attacks, and also rob them of their speed and health softening them up real quickly.
Now that's all nice and good, but then we come to the white elephant in the room that no one's willing to discuss. Pranksters.
To be honest the current metagame is a ripe hunting ground for them. Thundurus-I with his priority T-wave and Taunt stopping HO flat on it's tracks while completely dismantling most offensive archetypes is honestly too much for OU (imo), and then we have our usual Staples in Sableye and Whimsicott who need to introduction. HOWEVER XY has introduced perhaps the most formidable (and annoying) of them all: Klefki (i.e Liepard with better bulk) If you haven't faced his annoying wrath, then you will probably dismiss this keychain pokemon as a joke. Better than me I'll quote our suspicious Smod koko who succinctly sums up it's merits.
Along with access to Priority Screens/Spikes/Sub this pokemon will want to tear out your hair.
Their presence is so acutely felt in the metagame at this moment that some people have been running purely prankster teams and hitting top 50s in the ladder.
Anyways moving on. How do you counter this new wave of support mons while maintaining momentum in your favour? Here are a few options:
The best part is most of these pokemon usually have an overlapping role so they easily fit in most team archetypes not leaving them to be a niche.
UtilityMon (read: PRANKSTER) Counter/Check.
Gen 6 has seen not so subtle attempts to nerf the offensive nature of the metagame.
- Two of the biggest driving forces of the metagame: Dragon and Fighting were boned, thanks to the introduction Fairy (which itself is mainly defensive/balanced as a type).
- Weather got the memo, with the 5 turn limitation.
- And we got a ton of new viable defensive pokemon in form of ghosts (trevenant, gourgeist), fairies (Togekiss, Sylveon, Carbink, Florges) and mega-evolutions (Scizor, Tyranitar, Aggron)
- Coupled with a new Speed Control Hazard to boot - Sticky web, albeit with only two viable users in the current OU metagame.
Not surprisingly these are utility mons which are the backbones of any bulky offense or HO team usually providing support in form of hazards and status. Fairies are also excellent clerics with Wish passing and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, and finally the megas can themselves take part in the offense banwagon as tanks, like Mega-TTar and Bulky Roost Mega-Scizor.
Nowadays the standard method of overwhelming a single check counter with multiple offensive pokemon of the same role is no longer a consistent strategy to play with all these new threats which can easily stomach their attacks, and also rob them of their speed and health softening them up real quickly.
Now that's all nice and good, but then we come to the white elephant in the room that no one's willing to discuss. Pranksters.
To be honest the current metagame is a ripe hunting ground for them. Thundurus-I with his priority T-wave and Taunt stopping HO flat on it's tracks while completely dismantling most offensive archetypes is honestly too much for OU (imo), and then we have our usual Staples in Sableye and Whimsicott who need to introduction. HOWEVER XY has introduced perhaps the most formidable (and annoying) of them all: Klefki (i.e Liepard with better bulk) If you haven't faced his annoying wrath, then you will probably dismiss this keychain pokemon as a joke. Better than me I'll quote our suspicious Smod koko who succinctly sums up it's merits.
Point to moot: unless you're running a magic bouncer (2 of which a weak to foul play and one which posses and extremely high attack causing it to take heavy damage from it while it does little back) or a pink blob it's probably screw you out of atleast one pokemon, your best bet being a 1st turn 50/50 with your ground type.kokoloko said:
Along with access to Priority Screens/Spikes/Sub this pokemon will want to tear out your hair.
Their presence is so acutely felt in the metagame at this moment that some people have been running purely prankster teams and hitting top 50s in the ladder.
Anyways moving on. How do you counter this new wave of support mons while maintaining momentum in your favour? Here are a few options:
- FAST Taunters: Ironically one of the problem pkmn - Thundurus-I makes for one of the best counters for this strategy too. Its unrivaled place as the fastest taunter assured. It's also the fastest prankster in existence so it'll shut down any support mon flat out, the worst case scenario being a speed tie with an opposing Thundy. Other Options include (Mega) Aerodactyl with it's blazing fast speed and also access to rocks, Taunt-BU Talonflame which shuts down almost all support mons (barring prankster Twave) and sets up on their face, Gengar etc.
- Magic Coat/Magic Bounce: Rarer, but again give a massive finger to all support mons (bar aforementioned klefki issues). Mega Absol is a fantastic asset for most teams with that Uber sucker punch, which checkmates most pkmn with MB. Xatu acts as a fantastic Defensive wall with toxic support. Magic Coat users are also great Assets. Deoxys-s/D make for fantastic HO leads. Laying their own hazards and automatically stopping the opponent while at it and Smeargle is well.... smeargle.
- Offensive Priority (mainly for Pranksters): Good ol' hit em before they hit you. Watch Talonflame Brave Bird Sableye to hell. Except Thundurus none of the priority users usually invest in speed meaning you'll usually end up outspeeding them. And with all the strong priorities running around weaken 'em and pick em off.
- Berries/Rest/Status Abilities: Lum to the Rescue. Excadrill and Dnite thank Mr. Klefki for the free attack boost. Chesto-Rest Rotom-W just fucked up your Togekiss. Oops did you just burn Conkeldurr? Gliscor Activated Poison Heal Yay! Sleep Talk Heracross gunna fuck you up (not a good choice tbh)....yadda yadda.
The best part is most of these pokemon usually have an overlapping role so they easily fit in most team archetypes not leaving them to be a niche.
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I don't understand the concern with ghost types. Gengar, Aegislash, and Chandelure are the only threatening ones. Gengar is frail, Aegislash is predictable and can only sweep well at end game, and Chandelure is... well, slow.
The thing about ghost attacks is that they have no good super effectives beside other ghosts, and while their ghost stabs are generally unresisted they are also not their strongest attacks. I've run into few gengar that couldn't be ended with priority, and maybe a bit of switching around to work around disable, which is fine with anyone carrying a mon with over 100 speed. Aegislash on the other hand is one of the most will-o-wispable pokemon out there, especially since it generally doesn't try anything until after setting up. After one WOW, bashing it repeatedly is a viable strategy. Bonus points if you use your own setup move during king's shield. Both can be worked around easily enough without dedicated ghost counters if you are aware of them during team preview.
Chandelure is actually the one that gives me the most trouble, as it's hardest to switch into, and isn't even OU. (I think.)
Let's not even talk about gourgeist.
The thing about ghost attacks is that they have no good super effectives beside other ghosts, and while their ghost stabs are generally unresisted they are also not their strongest attacks. I've run into few gengar that couldn't be ended with priority, and maybe a bit of switching around to work around disable, which is fine with anyone carrying a mon with over 100 speed. Aegislash on the other hand is one of the most will-o-wispable pokemon out there, especially since it generally doesn't try anything until after setting up. After one WOW, bashing it repeatedly is a viable strategy. Bonus points if you use your own setup move during king's shield. Both can be worked around easily enough without dedicated ghost counters if you are aware of them during team preview.
Chandelure is actually the one that gives me the most trouble, as it's hardest to switch into, and isn't even OU. (I think.)
Let's not even talk about gourgeist.
Ghosts are dangerous because they are hard to wall. Many have just the offensive moves they need, but more importantly, they often have substantial support movepools and Ghost having two immunities and few weaknesses means lots of switch in opportunities. It's not about raw damage. Trevenant can be devastating with any combination of Curse, WoW and Leech Seed and be really annoying to take out having good resistances and several abilities and moves allowing for healing and preventing of damage. Aegeslash likewise is a great pivot being incredibly bulky on the switch since its in Shield Form and has three immunities on top of Steels long resistance list. Gengar may be frail, but again, three immunities, two of them being to Fighting and Ground of all things, means lots of switch in opportunities, plus a great speed tier, devastating special attack stat, and crazy diverse and unpredictable movepool. Gengar rarely leaves the battlefield without having accomplished something. So Ghosts are dangerous, and ironically kind of like Dragons in that if you carry one yourself you have a good tool against them. Not to mention they still function as spin blockers, which is annoying for teams that run Rapid Spin over Defog to not compete with their own tactics. Chandelure would be far more dangerous if it had the speed Gengar does, or wasn't Stealth Rock weak.
I think Talonflame is very overhyped right now. I honestly consider it equivalent to how volcarona was last gen. It was a very scary pokemon that you always had to keep in the back of your mind, but it's not exactly what I'd call a staple. 180 Priority sounds really good, but with the increased bulk in this gen, I feel like it'll eventually settle at around #10-15 usage-wise.
I hope you're not in any slightest way implying that gourgeist is bad. And wow that Aegislash countering advice you give. Astute... and extremely noobish
Wut? Aegislash can go Mixed, Automatize Special, Automatize Physical, or Swords Dance.
You've... never faced Mixed, LO Special, or Weakness Policy Automatize-Special Aegislash before, have you?
He may have meant predicable in the form of coverage, as its always stabs + fighting or something else. But yeah aegislash is really versatile, and can for sure catch the opponent off guard at any point in the game.
Automatize-Special runs HP Ice to OHKO Gliscor, and aside from the "predictable" Shadow Ball, he may be running Sacred Sword or Iron Head to be a Mixed attacker, or Flash Cannon to hit harder on the Special side.
If Hippowdon switches in on the Automatize, Aegislash can Automatize to +4 to tank the Earthquake. Aegislash will survive, get a Weakness Policy boost, and OHKO most Hippowdons with +2 HP Ice. And now you got Aegislash at +4 speed, +2 Attack, and +2 Special attack sweeping the rest of your team...
This thing is really freaking unpredictable...
If Hippowdon switches in on the Automatize, Aegislash can Automatize to +4 to tank the Earthquake. Aegislash will survive, get a Weakness Policy boost, and OHKO most Hippowdons with +2 HP Ice. And now you got Aegislash at +4 speed, +2 Attack, and +2 Special attack sweeping the rest of your team...
This thing is really freaking unpredictable...
my team consist of this:
-supp1 - cleric/status (kiss/jira/florges/klefki)
-supp2 - defog/spinner (blastoise (<----) , drill, latias, mandibuzz etc.)
-phys1
-phys2
-spec1
-spec2
regarding what will fit into 4 of those slots, it become a bit complicated
any tank/entries , for example gliscor/tytar/hippo/phan/umbreon/skar/gastrodon (why majority of this is ground) will be in phys1
scizor/sect/breloom/amarill/earth djinn, chomp, terrakion, cloyster would be phys2
the last 2 slots are probably where your ghost/dragon/dark/dragon is, for me it's possibly latios,gengar,heatran,chandelure,volcaron,heatran,d.nites,kyurem
(it doesn't really need high s.atk, it just need to be special..., be a super special dragon nuke with high risk and high reward, or it could be anything )
however, roar/wirldwind must be there somewhere
and there are several pokes that could do multiple jobs, like aegislash
just don't put redundant individuals together and watch for their chemistry, everything will be fine.
-supp1 - cleric/status (kiss/jira/florges/klefki)
-supp2 - defog/spinner (blastoise (<----) , drill, latias, mandibuzz etc.)
-phys1
-phys2
-spec1
-spec2
regarding what will fit into 4 of those slots, it become a bit complicated
any tank/entries , for example gliscor/tytar/hippo/phan/umbreon/skar/gastrodon (why majority of this is ground) will be in phys1
scizor/sect/breloom/amarill/earth djinn, chomp, terrakion, cloyster would be phys2
the last 2 slots are probably where your ghost/dragon/dark/dragon is, for me it's possibly latios,gengar,heatran,chandelure,volcaron,heatran,d.nites,kyurem
(it doesn't really need high s.atk, it just need to be special..., be a super special dragon nuke with high risk and high reward, or it could be anything )
however, roar/wirldwind must be there somewhere
and there are several pokes that could do multiple jobs, like aegislash
just don't put redundant individuals together and watch for their chemistry, everything will be fine.
my team consist of this:
-supp1 - cleric/status (kiss/jira/florges/klefki/sableye)
-supp2 - defog/spinner (blastoise (<----) , drill, latias, mandibuzz etc.)
-phys1
-phys2
-spec1
-spec2
regarding what will fit into 4 of those slots, it become a bit complicated
any tank/entries , for example gliscor/tytar/hippo/phan/umbreon/skar/gastrodon (why majority of this is ground) will be in phys1
scizor/sect/breloom/amarill/earth djinn, chomp, terrakion, cloyster would be phys2
the last 2 slots are probably where your ghost/dragon/dark/dragon is, for me it's possibly latios,gengar,heatran,chandelure,volcaron,heatran,d.nites,kyurem
(it doesn't really need high s.atk, it just need to be special..., be a super special dragon nuke with high risk and high reward, or it could be anything :)
however, roar/wirldwind must be there somewhere
and there are several pokes that could do multiple jobs, like aegislash
just don't put redundant individuals together and watch for their chemistry, everything will be fine.
-supp1 - cleric/status (kiss/jira/florges/klefki/sableye)
-supp2 - defog/spinner (blastoise (<----) , drill, latias, mandibuzz etc.)
-phys1
-phys2
-spec1
-spec2
regarding what will fit into 4 of those slots, it become a bit complicated
any tank/entries , for example gliscor/tytar/hippo/phan/umbreon/skar/gastrodon (why majority of this is ground) will be in phys1
scizor/sect/breloom/amarill/earth djinn, chomp, terrakion, cloyster would be phys2
the last 2 slots are probably where your ghost/dragon/dark/dragon is, for me it's possibly latios,gengar,heatran,chandelure,volcaron,heatran,d.nites,kyurem
(it doesn't really need high s.atk, it just need to be special..., be a super special dragon nuke with high risk and high reward, or it could be anything :)
however, roar/wirldwind must be there somewhere
and there are several pokes that could do multiple jobs, like aegislash
just don't put redundant individuals together and watch for their chemistry, everything will be fine.
I'm not so sure about Ghost being the new Dragons. Besides Aegislash, I haven't seen any other ghosts. I think Steel is more relevant than Ghost in XY OU due their offensive presence combined with key resistances. Look current top-11 of most used XY OU Pokemon: only 1 Ghost (which is Steel too), and 7 Steel Pokemon. It would be more accurate to see Aegislash being the staple rather than ghosts.
I'd say Grass and Flying are more important than Ghost too. Grass is the glue in bulky offense or stall teams combining with other two staples: water and steel (well, is the famous F/G/W core, but the fire Pokemon is always Heatran which is chosen because Steel type).
Flying not only concedes Ground inmunity but in this generation is one of most importante offensive types: Priority Brave Bird Talonflame, STAB Mega-Pinsir attacks, pivot Tornadus-T, Flying being one of two super-effective types against Mega-Venusaur, etc.
I'd say Grass and Flying are more important than Ghost too. Grass is the glue in bulky offense or stall teams combining with other two staples: water and steel (well, is the famous F/G/W core, but the fire Pokemon is always Heatran which is chosen because Steel type).
Flying not only concedes Ground inmunity but in this generation is one of most importante offensive types: Priority Brave Bird Talonflame, STAB Mega-Pinsir attacks, pivot Tornadus-T, Flying being one of two super-effective types against Mega-Venusaur, etc.
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