Not really, cus Mega Lucario 2hko's Skarmory with either cc or aura sphere and it runs the risk of being 2hko'd by mega heracross close combat, especially the sub variants which all it can do is whirlwind out and hope it can heal again before Mega Heracross is back on the field, it cannot guarantee a ohko on mega pinsir with brave bird and runs the risk of dying to 2 +2 returns after sr dmg and it's brave bird recoil. Crobat is able to kill all 3 of these threats especially with infiltrator, even if it takes sr damage. Mega Lucario is shaky but he does a damn better job than skarmory can. You're also forgetting his typing which gives it very valuable 4x resists to fighting and grass aswell as an immunity to earthquake and toxic. This is the EV spread: EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd /w Jolly Nature, now go run your calcs again and question its ability to do its job.
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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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Something that's exemplary for stall teams is Gothitelle:
Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Heal Bell
- Your Choice
- Your Choice
It's ideal for taking out the cleric (or other troublesome mon if you're keen on phazing rather than statusing), as with shadow tag the cleric can't switch out and so will always get choice locked. If the cleric is locked into an attacking move that would kill Gothitelle, switch it out and then when the cleric (or I guess rapid spinner/defoger) switches back in later for the inevitable Heal Bell/Aromatherapy because your stall team has spread status far and wide switch Gothitelle in again for the guaranteed kill. This set takes a huge headache out of stall, and if you have Heal Bell as well you can also cleric for your own team after choice locking something else (though that's up to your discretion if you don't feel like you need a cleric).
Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Heal Bell
- Your Choice
- Your Choice
It's ideal for taking out the cleric (or other troublesome mon if you're keen on phazing rather than statusing), as with shadow tag the cleric can't switch out and so will always get choice locked. If the cleric is locked into an attacking move that would kill Gothitelle, switch it out and then when the cleric (or I guess rapid spinner/defoger) switches back in later for the inevitable Heal Bell/Aromatherapy because your stall team has spread status far and wide switch Gothitelle in again for the guaranteed kill. This set takes a huge headache out of stall, and if you have Heal Bell as well you can also cleric for your own team after choice locking something else (though that's up to your discretion if you don't feel like you need a cleric).
I don't see how Gothitelle could really work on stall teams, the idea that it just traps clerics and kills them is alright but when you can just use something that actually has synergy with the rest of your team and has taunt it does pretty much the same job as gothitelle would do. I don't see how clerics could be that much of an issue that you would even need to use this strategy just for other clerics that you may or not even face (and if you don't face them all you have is a cleric that can't heal itself). With only resistances to fighting and psychic (both of which also have coverage to damage you SE'ly) you'd be covering a lot of holes in your team to use gothitelle, who is completely useless to your team if there is no cleric.
TL:DR; There are better stall breakers with better defensive synergy for stall teams to use.
TL:DR; There are better stall breakers with better defensive synergy for stall teams to use.
Gothitelle sounds cool in Stall vs Stall matchups, as it can easily setup Calm Minds on stuff like Chansey, heal with Rest and eventually kill with Psyshock. It can't beat Defoggers like Mandibuzz and Scizor though, unfortunately.
If that is what you want to do with it, why not just use Jirachi then? At least Jirachi can check Latios and other Pokemon if need be.
(although yeah, the new ghost and dark weakness hurt its usefulness a lot)
(although yeah, the new ghost and dark weakness hurt its usefulness a lot)
Yes, and it works well - I'd definitely recommend it.
The point is that it's about 90% guaranteed to neutralise any threat you want it to (whether that be a cleric, set up user or defogger/spinner) - synergy really isn't the consideration as Gothietelle has enough HP here to not get 2HKO'd by very much (meaning you can switch it in at a whim) and then can outspeed and scarf on the second turn. If there is a check you need taking out, Gothitelle is pretty sure to do it and that's a major boon to stall teams - there's always something I'd rather have choice locked on an opposing team than not even when they lack a cleric (making it pretty far from useless even when they don't have a cleric).
Obviously you can use Taunt, but if your stalling mon doesn't have Taunt itself (and really stalling pokemon are the worst for four moveslot syndrome - you need your status move, sub/protect/recovery, sub/protect/taunt/recovery/good coverage attack, STAB attack or something along those lines) then a Cleric can easily switch in and Heal Bell/Aromatherapy on your switch out - undoing all your hard work. I'd also like to point out that you're guaranteed a free turn too, as the opponent can't switch out until you have because of Shadow Tag - letting you set up however you please in that following turn (getting your stallmon behind a sub for example) which is certainly nothing to be sniffed at.
In regards to not just using Jirachi, Jirachi doesn't have Shadow Tag and most opponents will know what your game is having a Jirachi on a stall team so they're not going to let you use Trick on anything useful. With Shadow Tag, they have no choice in the matter.
Here's an annoyingly long stall vs. stall. Consider it an argument for Rotom-H.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-76030890
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-76030890
Here's an interesting idea that I tried and found extremely effective. I wanted to know what Assault Vest could do for stall so I swapped Tangrowth in for Mega-Venusaur and Slowbro in for Gyarados and found it to be much better. Both have massive defences on both sides with their huge natural physical bulk and boosted special bulk and both can still offer team support with Knock Off and Scald respectively. As an example of their bulk on both sides:
244+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
32 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 129-153 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
244+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Tangrowth: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
32 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Both stand a pretty good chance of walling a mixed attacking pokemon with 170 / 120 base offences. With Regenerator (and Giga Drain in Tangrowth's case) to keep them in top shape, these pokemon look like top choices for stall in XY OU to me. Thoughts?
244+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
32 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 129-153 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
244+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Tangrowth: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
32 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Both stand a pretty good chance of walling a mixed attacking pokemon with 170 / 120 base offences. With Regenerator (and Giga Drain in Tangrowth's case) to keep them in top shape, these pokemon look like top choices for stall in XY OU to me. Thoughts?
Very cool battle. What sort of nature/IVs were you running on Rotom?
Your EV's are well off for mega garchomp as a wall breaker, just saying.
And that's more an argument for using a cleric on a stall team rather than just purely rotom-h, it looked like the guy you was vs had just copied aj's stall team except he for some reason wasn't using chansey.
EDIT: How many times will you bring in chansey and not use heal bell and how many times will you swap out on thundurus like its a threat to chansey? lol
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Not well.
I have a stall team in mind but I'm not running it until Kyurem-b leaves. Kyurem-b has been described as the "kill anything" button in UU and I want no part of that when designing a stall unless I somehow decide that keldeo is a legit stallmon.
On an OU note, once mega luc is banned, I can finally run a team I've had reserved in my back pocket for some months now and a team I had just created around mega gyarados. I'm just at a loss how to beat this guy without the most extensive planning (one reason I just like to stick to the Dreadnoughts and not due much else). I really, really want a sigilyph stall now, though. Magic guard sigiliphy on stall has 4mss to the max, but is so excellent, I don't want to ignore it. It only has a few notable weaknesses (ice/electric/dark/ghost) that after one boost aren't even a factor but for like bisharp's LO knock off (which, bisharp is getting burned if you survive). I had run it as a burn wall phazer in gen 5 going WW/Psycho shift/Cosmic Power/Roost but spikes are less effective now, so I'll be doing some optimization when I get ready for a new stall team. I think that Mega gyara (or mandi)/sigi/Hippo could be a potential core of gods.
I have a stall team in mind but I'm not running it until Kyurem-b leaves. Kyurem-b has been described as the "kill anything" button in UU and I want no part of that when designing a stall unless I somehow decide that keldeo is a legit stallmon.
On an OU note, once mega luc is banned, I can finally run a team I've had reserved in my back pocket for some months now and a team I had just created around mega gyarados. I'm just at a loss how to beat this guy without the most extensive planning (one reason I just like to stick to the Dreadnoughts and not due much else). I really, really want a sigilyph stall now, though. Magic guard sigiliphy on stall has 4mss to the max, but is so excellent, I don't want to ignore it. It only has a few notable weaknesses (ice/electric/dark/ghost) that after one boost aren't even a factor but for like bisharp's LO knock off (which, bisharp is getting burned if you survive). I had run it as a burn wall phazer in gen 5 going WW/Psycho shift/Cosmic Power/Roost but spikes are less effective now, so I'll be doing some optimization when I get ready for a new stall team. I think that Mega gyara (or mandi)/sigi/Hippo could be a potential core of gods.
True, but there's no way Kyurem-B will stay legal soon, Manaphy was just banned recently and I imagine Kyu and Deoxys-S will probably be cut too once all is said and done.
Also that sounds pretty cool, but doesn't Clefable basically do that better already but with a far better typing and slightly better stats? What does Sigiglyph offer that it doesn't?
Also that sounds pretty cool, but doesn't Clefable basically do that better already but with a far better typing and slightly better stats? What does Sigiglyph offer that it doesn't?
You know, I am noticing more and more that most teams this generation have some kind of hazard control through Rapid Spin or Defog. While on paper this would indicate that one would have more of a problem stalling, IMO in practice this means that more teams are having one less offensive Pokemon, and thus are less likely to actually break through you.
Any thoughts on this? Just my personal hypothesis.
Any thoughts on this? Just my personal hypothesis.
One way to get around the lack of offense with a Spinner/Defogger is to use Mega Blastoise (or Excadrill if you can manage the Earthquake liability)
I've noticed this, but I have mixed feelings about it. I feel like I'm forced to be increasingly offensive with my defensive teams, just to be capable of doing some sort of damage against teams which regularly carry one or both of Defog and Heal Bell. In past generations, you had little hope of breaking through a defensive core with a single Pokemon, rather needing two or more to overload the relevant wall, but the power level of some threats is so obscene at the moment that I feel like the opponent needs fewer offensive threats to break through anyway.
If they have a defogger it can kinda work in your favour too though if you have hazards up since more offensive teams are weaker to rocks than most stall teams you can bait their rapid spinner/defogger out by using rocks while keeping your switches offensively prepared for them. For example, if they're using skarmory to defog you can try to keep heatran on the field as long as possible or a special attacking mon since skarmory really hates these.
Calm, 252 HP / 252 SpD the entire team has very basic ev's for testing purposes. I'll begin tweaking them soon.
Yeah I was testing without heal bell for the first time. I put it back in. As for thundurus, valid point, I'm still new and find myself making mistakes like this all the time.
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Knock off is a negative to any team hit by it. The only knock off stall fears is Bisharp's, as he is insanely powerful. And chansey is far from useless... you just have to have half a brain to keep it away from something carrying knock off
Edit:
Alright, so I've been working on this for a few hours now. Yuttt and I had talked about a pivot stall a lot (Arthy actually beat me to making a team, has an older RMT up called "Momentum Stall" but it only used two pivots). So, the idea here is that pivoting has something stall would love: Lessened prediction required. In long games, you're absolutely bound to make a mistake. But prediction is so very crucial that it is of unreal importance to do correctly. A pivot stall would not only lessen the amount of prediction needed but also gain stall momentum (making stall an absolute blast to play against... I mean, stall with momentum? Good luck...)
Here's the basic importable.
So, what I'm looking at right now is Rotom-H's rock weakness and how I'd love to use rotom-w. I need a fire resist in Slowbro's spot, but two water types are redundant. Whatever goes there needs to be a pivot. The team as is has only lost one match, but I want Rotom to be a more active part. Clefable is also out of place, but I needed a rock setter, cleric and something not fire/fight weak (though, fight weak might not be so bad...). Audino comes to mind but that is some bad bulk (Though, it is nearly the same as clefable's...)
So, any suggestions? And yes, this is stall. If you play a few games, you'll see how destructively stally this team is.
Edit:
Alright, so I've been working on this for a few hours now. Yuttt and I had talked about a pivot stall a lot (Arthy actually beat me to making a team, has an older RMT up called "Momentum Stall" but it only used two pivots). So, the idea here is that pivoting has something stall would love: Lessened prediction required. In long games, you're absolutely bound to make a mistake. But prediction is so very crucial that it is of unreal importance to do correctly. A pivot stall would not only lessen the amount of prediction needed but also gain stall momentum (making stall an absolute blast to play against... I mean, stall with momentum? Good luck...)
Here's the basic importable.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Roost
Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Pain Split
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat
Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Defog
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
Slowbro (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Scald
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Roost
Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Pain Split
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat
Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Defog
Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
Slowbro (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Scald
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Stealth Rock
So, what I'm looking at right now is Rotom-H's rock weakness and how I'd love to use rotom-w. I need a fire resist in Slowbro's spot, but two water types are redundant. Whatever goes there needs to be a pivot. The team as is has only lost one match, but I want Rotom to be a more active part. Clefable is also out of place, but I needed a rock setter, cleric and something not fire/fight weak (though, fight weak might not be so bad...). Audino comes to mind but that is some bad bulk (Though, it is nearly the same as clefable's...)
So, any suggestions? And yes, this is stall. If you play a few games, you'll see how destructively stally this team is.
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My point still stands, Assault Vest pokemon with Regenerator are extremely bulky and I wanted to see other peoples thoughts on using them on stall in XY
I tried tangrowth, and the issue is some AV pokemon just have too many common weaknesses (grass types awful yuck if pure). Amoongus doesn't need it, to be honest. Audino likes to be a cleric, as does Alomomola. I think Slowbro may be the only stall pokemon with AV usage.
Btw, audino could be somewhat relevant this generation. Just because, you know, it is about as bulky as clefable and has regenerator. A 'mobile' cleric, but as I was showing off a bit in post 630, I'm enjoying this switch stall mentality... it is really, really excellent.
Btw, audino could be somewhat relevant this generation. Just because, you know, it is about as bulky as clefable and has regenerator. A 'mobile' cleric, but as I was showing off a bit in post 630, I'm enjoying this switch stall mentality... it is really, really excellent.
Ah yes, my favorite playstyle stall. I am still interested in whether Banette makes for a solid spinblocker and its comparison to sableye. I've generally used Banette on a spikestacking offense team to great effect and it even gains momentum with priority destiny bond. But that lack of recovery severely hampers it. I woud think using a wishpasser like vaporeon, florges, or sylveon would help, though. I have also used xatu on a stall team, which helps with bouncing back taunt, toxic, and hazards in general which is useful. But I especially wonder if defog and stall could work together in some cases to get rid of annoying hazards that can annoy stall.
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