Pokémon Kyurem-Black

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He doesn't need useful physical ice moves. The targets you want to kill with ice die to Beam currently and some edge cases get bounced by his Dragon STAB or Fusion Bolt. I can't think of many cases where a bit of extra juice on the Ice STAB nets you a 2HKO you can't get any other way.
You're forgetting that its a difference of 50 between his Atk and SpA that the point is utilizing his significantly higher offense and ice arguably now has more utility as compared to his dragon STAB simply because he can spam it much more easily without the repercussion of an immunity (Dragon and Ice are pretty much redundant STAB anyway).
 
he has zero useful physical ice moves

can't believe he still didn't get icicle crash, ice punch, or even ice shard while other pokemon got updated move pools, like entei's sacred fire
And that's why he's OU. His movepool is what happens when you turn a special attacker into a physical wallbreaker, without changing its skillset. If that wasn't the case he wouldn't HAVE to run mixed and he'd probably be in ubers. Ice Shard off of that attack? Sheeeit.
 
And that's why he's OU. His movepool is what happens when you turn a special attacker into a physical wallbreaker, without changing its skillset. If that wasn't the case he wouldn't HAVE to run mixed and he'd probably be in ubers. Ice Shard off of that attack? Sheeeit.
If he had Ice Shard off of 170 Base Atk, I don't think he'd still be Ubers off of that alone.

The Stance Dance Aegislash set tried to go big by abusing incredible defensive typing, and 150 Base Atk by trying to spam +6 Shadow Sneaks, and we all know how that set has fallen out of favor now. Ghost even has some of the best coverage in the game and yet it's not enough to be unbeatable.

No point speculating about what isn't available though.
 
If he had Ice Shard off of 170 Base Atk, I don't think he'd still be Ubers off of that alone.

The Stance Dance Aegislash set tried to go big by abusing incredible defensive typing, and 150 Base Atk by trying to spam +6 Shadow Sneaks, and we all know how that set has fallen out of favor now. Ghost even has some of the best coverage in the game and yet it's not enough to be unbeatable.

No point speculating about what isn't available though.
Aegislash does not have an ability to augment its priority, such as Technician or Iron Fist. Conkeldurr's Mach Punch without Iron First or Life Orb is quite weak. Stance Dance Aegislash was mostly Burn bait, but using Shadow Ball instead of Swords Dance allows it circumvent Intimidate drops and Burns, while giving it a powerful STAB that hits on the Special side and can be chained with Shadow Sneak. A +4 Shadow Sneak is still too weak to sweep (and getting to that might allow burns and Earthquakes directed at it), so it needed to use Iron Head or Sacred Sword to get one kill, but that would leave it vulnerable to something faster that can withstand a Shadow Sneak, so its only recourse was to King's Shield (and that can be easily exploited).

Like Stance Dance Aegislash, its lack of speed really held Kyurem-B back against offensive teams, but Kyurem-B doesn't have statistical bulk (it's like Tyranitar without the Special Defense boost from Sand Stream) or good defensive typing.
 

Rotosect

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You're forgetting that its a difference of 50 between his Atk and SpA that the point is utilizing his significantly higher offense and ice arguably now has more utility as compared to his dragon STAB simply because he can spam it much more easily without the repercussion of an immunity (Dragon and Ice are pretty much redundant STAB anyway).
Dragon and ice serve completely different purposes other than dragon killing so they're not redundant at all. Want to know who's the king of redundant STABs? Heracross. The combination of bug and fighting is resisted by FOUR types. Nothing else even comes close to that.
 

Chou Toshio

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Aegislash does not have an ability to augment its priority, such as Technician or Iron Fist. Conkeldurr's Mach Punch without Iron First or Life Orb is quite weak. Stance Dance Aegislash was mostly Burn bait, but using Shadow Ball instead of Swords Dance allows it circumvent Intimidate drops and Burns, while giving it a powerful STAB that hits on the Special side and can be chained with Shadow Sneak. A +4 Shadow Sneak is still too weak to sweep (and getting to that might allow burns and Earthquakes directed at it), so it needed to use Iron Head or Sacred Sword to get one kill, but that would leave it vulnerable to something faster that can withstand a Shadow Sneak, so its only recourse was to King's Shield (and that can be easily exploited).

Like Stance Dance Aegislash, its lack of speed really held Kyurem-B back against offensive teams, but Kyurem-B doesn't have statistical bulk (it's like Tyranitar without the Special Defense boost from Sand Stream) or good defensive typing.
How does a Pokemon with 125 / 100 / 90 defenses not have statistical bulk...?
 
Dragon type moves are largely unnecessary on cube since ice beam gets better coverage and most things that resist ice beam are hit harder by fusion bolt than dragon claw/outrage. And weird as it sounds, cube doesn't have enough space to fit in a dragon move.

Sub+3 attacks is working great for me. It's unbelievably better than the all out LO set. Pokemon like CB talonflame give it ample set up opportunity by u-turning out of rotom-w and heatran. Enough bulk so that it's subs can't be broken by the pokemon it sets up on. And teravolt shreds through so many common threats. Every time I earth power rotom-w or oneshot dnite my dick gets so hard. Did I mention stab ice beam?

I used to mock people who used cube (although in my defense cube users in BW days mainly spammed CB outrage) but I'm a believer now. I firmly believe that kyurem-b is on the the best dragons outside of ubers. Sweeper dragons are interchangeable. But no dragon can do what cube does. I switched from mixed aegislash to cube and I've never looked back.
 
How does a Pokemon with 125 / 100 / 90 defenses not have statistical bulk...?
I stand corrected. Its stats resemble that of a Ttar with fully invested HP (as TTar can make 101 HP Subs too). Perhaps, I meant that its statistical bulk alone does not allow it to take powerful, common supereffective hits; TTar is aided by Sand Stream (and often investment) to take power special attacks on the special side.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Kyu-B might have the statistical bulk (and it's certainly bulky for an offensive Pokémon) but that bulk is largely frustrated by its mediocre defensive typing and weakness to SR. While Tyranitar's typing is certainly not great defensively, its massive SpD allows it to take repeated special attacks (with the exception of focus blast/aura sphere and earth power from Landorus).
 
Dragon and ice serve completely different purposes other than dragon killing so they're not redundant at all. Want to know who's the king of redundant STABs? Heracross. The combination of bug and fighting is resisted by FOUR types. Nothing else even comes close to that.
That is just it as a STAB Ice is superior, since Kyu-B does gain STAB from Ice, and the only relevant coverage dragon provides is well dragon that Ice already does so (hence redundant as it adds nothing to the table that Ice already provides and no point bringing up another mon since the discussion is about Kyu-B). Moreover, Dragon is resisted by the same steel types while neutral to water it cannot hit fairy types, given the Bolt-Beam Earth power coverage this point is largely moot when you focus on his Ice STAB. Considering how much Kyu-B uses bolt-beam coverage to his advantage a physical ice attack would have been wonderful as his go to STAB attack that compliments his high Atk stat rather than a dragon attack, as it retains his coverage which is his strength.

Any event not much point talking about "what ifs" or wishful thinking since this has been pretty much covered before in BW discussions, and the situation hasn't exactly changed Kyu-B still wants Icicle crash, nor is it productive with what we have to work with. However, I do hope it does show the importance of an actual movepool, that while yes he has an intimidating 170 atk it is not as if Kyu-B necessarily uses it all that much.
 
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I have a team ready that uses Kyurem-B as a substitute for one of my main pokemon. I'll post in here when I get to actually use it. But at a glance it looks like it will do exceedingly well.
 
That is just it as a STAB Ice is superior, since Kyu-B does gain STAB from Ice, and the only relevant coverage dragon provides is well dragon that Ice already does so (hence redundant as it adds nothing to the table that Ice already provides and no point bringing up another mon since the discussion is about Kyu-B). Moreover, Dragon is resisted by the same steel types while neutral to water it cannot hit fairy types, given the Bolt-Beam Earth power coverage this point is largely moot when you focus on his Ice STAB. Considering how much Kyu-B uses bolt-beam coverage to his advantage a physical ice attack would have been wonderful as his go to STAB attack that compliments his high Atk stat rather than a dragon attack, as it retains his coverage which is his strength.

Any event not much point talking about "what ifs" or wishful thinking since this has been pretty much covered before in BW discussions, and the situation hasn't exactly changed Kyu-B still wants Icicle crash, nor is it productive with what we have to work with. However, I do hope it does show the importance of an actual movepool, that while yes he has an intimidating 170 atk it is not as if Kyu-B necessarily uses it all that much.
Well ironically there's only two Dragon types in OU where his Dragon STAB would come in handy: Char X and... well, Kyu B himself. Outside of OU it'd be Reshiram and Dialga. Wait, no, Dialga is neutral to both Dragon and Ice. Bleh.
 
If he had Ice Shard off of 170 Base Atk, I don't think he'd still be Ubers off of that alone.

The Stance Dance Aegislash set tried to go big by abusing incredible defensive typing, and 150 Base Atk by trying to spam +6 Shadow Sneaks, and we all know how that set has fallen out of favor now. Ghost even has some of the best coverage in the game and yet it's not enough to be unbeatable.

No point speculating about what isn't available though.
I was just using that as an example of an option he could, and honestly should, get. There's no way around it, Blackyurem is in OU because of his abysmal movepool. White Kyurem basically has the same movepool, but has the monstrous retarded special attack to abuse it in a way Blackyurem never will. That said, Blackie is a monster and should be abused far more often, you've still got Fusion Bolt which slaughters most water types (notably outspeeding and crushing Azumarill) and one of the strongest Outrages in the game. And his special attack is still great, he can throw around ice beam and Draco Meteor and Focus Blast too.
 

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^That is one of the moments where I find Kyurem-B to be extremely useful. The battle shifted midway when I realized he was predicting my movements after KOing Starmie with Knock Off. However, Kyurem-B changed the outcome of the game by subbing on the MScizor switch and Proceding to defeat his Landorus and MScizor, and becoming Pursuit-Bait-Fodder for Latios.

While my opponent may have not been the best, or if this has nothing to do with Kyurem-B, I still feel that Sub+3 Attcks (Special) Variant is the best way to go, doing a heavy amount to a lot of the OU Meta, and being rather bulky wall doing that.
 
I don't understand why his Mega Scizor switched out when he had super effective Bullet Punch which a smart player would have done hoping to get you down to less than 25% to prevent to obvious Substitute if not OHKO. I'm sure there are better replays highlighting KyuB's prowess. Your opponent certainly could have one with a few different choices, considering how close it was.
 

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I don't understand why his Mega Scizor switched out when he had super effective Bullet Punch which a smart player would have done hoping to get you down to less than 25% to prevent to obvious Substitute if not OHKO. I'm sure there are better replays highlighting KyuB's prowess. Your opponent certainly could have one with a few different choices, considering how close it was.
I agree, it seemed rather strange, but keep in mind, it doesn't even drop it down to less than Sub range with BP.

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 240-284 (59.2 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

alexwolf

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I am curious to hear what people have been using as their check/counter for Kyurem-B on offensive teams. Assault Vest Excadrill, Assault Vest Conkeldurr, and Roost (Mega) Scizor are the best that i have found, but Scizor is kinda easy to wall, and the other two are easy to wear down, but this usually isn't a problem as the games last only a few turns anyway. So, what i wanted to say is that i find myself using either one of those two mons (AV Conk and AV Excadrill) on my offensive teams, or making sure that almost all of my Pokemon can threaten it in some way.

Another extremely useful Pokemon to have against Kyu-B is DD Mega Ttar. DD Mega Tyranitar is the only sweeper that can directly take advantage of Kyurem-B and set up on it, taking only 33.9 - 40.3% from +SpA Kyu-B's Earth Power. It's also surprising how many offensive teams are DD Mega Ttar weak, especially those that rely on CB Talonflame as their revenge killer and have no Scarfer.

Thankfully, on the defensive end, Kyurem-B is much more manageable than it used to be. Sylveon, Clefable, Chansey, Mega Scizor, and Tyranitar are all great counters to Sub + 3 attacks Kyu-B, while physically defenisve Clefable and Sylveon can deal with almost any Kyu-B set in general, aside from CB Kyu-B' Fusion Bolt.

All in all, i find Kyu-B to be one of the most threatening Pokemon against both offense and defense, but it's quite manageable in this gen with proper teambuilding, as there are quite a few viable checks and counters to it (thx Assault Vest and Fairies!). It's also a positive presence in the metagame, as it checks extremely threatening / annoying Pokemon such as Manaphy, Greninja, Rotom-W, and Mega Venusaur, and is one of the very few Pokemon that can consistently break down Mega Venusaur and his defensive teammates.
 
The sub+3 attacks set is countered by Suicune since it can come in on any of Kyu's attacks and PP stall it's Fusion Bolt. Though if Suicune comes in on a Fusion Bolt, it has to Rest next turn or it gets KO'd so that could be played around.

0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

alexwolf

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The sub+3 attacks set is countered by Suicune since it can come in on any of Kyu's attacks and PP stall it's Fusion Bolt. Though if Suicune comes in on a Fusion Bolt, it has to Rest next turn or it gets KO'd so that could be played around.

0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can't PP stall Fusion Bolt as it 3HKOes and Kyu-B outspeeds (ResTalk leaves you without recovery for two turns). Suicune is one of the worst Pokemon to send out vs Sub Kyu-B, unless you have somehow managed to already stall out some of Fusion Bolt's PPs. With Pressure, Kyurem-B has 4 shots against Suicune, so to beat it, Kyu-B must have already wasted 2 Fusion Bolt PPs.
 
You can't PP stall Fusion Bolt as it 3HKOes and Kyu-B outspeeds (ResTalk leaves you without recovery for two turns). Suicune is one of the worst Pokemon to send out vs Sub Kyu-B, unless you have somehow managed to already stall out some of Fusion Bolt's PPs. With Pressure, Kyurem-B has 4 shots against Suicune, so to beat it, Kyu-B must have already wasted 2 Fusion Bolt PPs.
Oh right *facepalm*

Thanks for the correction.

But on the other hand, Kyu-B is pseudo-locked to Fusion Bolt if it wants to kill Suicune, since it only gets one chance to kill it. So I guess that gives space for prediction for the Suicune player?
 
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Suicune is a pretty shitty switch in for KyuB since earth power does a lot before you get a boost in, but KyuB can't really switch in and beat you either.
 
Suicune is a pretty shitty switch in for KyuB since earth power does a lot before you get a boost in, but KyuB can't really switch in and beat you either.
216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 89-105 (22 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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