XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[rachet67]

Sure, Deoxys-S can taunt the would-be defogger to prevent it from occurring, but his poor bulk means that he probably won't stick around long enough to constantly deny the defog. And even though he can stop defog, it's still a problem that Deoxys-S has to worry about. His offensive sets too now face bigger competition than ever thanks to all of those priority users.

While his speed is still undoubtedly great, Deoxys-S is no longer as "fast" as he used to be. The biggest selling point of Deoxys-S was always his speed, and now that that's been compromised, I feel like he doesn't deserve to go to Ubers.

Just want to say that 50/90/90 isn't terrible bulk especially when invested in HP. Also deoxys is just as fast as it used to be. It outspeeds scarfed 102 base speed which is pretty fantastic.

 

[TrippingRocks]

Just want to say that 50/90/90 isn't terrible bulk especially when invested in HP. Also deoxys is just as fast as it used to be. It outspeeds scarfed 102 base speed which is pretty fantastic.

Deoxys-S is still super-fast, but not as fast as it used to be. Prankster Klefki is faster when it comes to setting up screens or spikes. New offensive threats such as Aegislash and Talonflame are faster thanks to their priority. With Thundurus-I and his unbanning, he can use prankster taunt to completely shut-down a supportive Deoxys-S.

 

[Hydro Pimp]

You came to me asking a question and I'll politely answer. Read above. Skywalker obtains the +2 boost VERY easily, making it an easily obtainable field position therefore not far from the actual truth (much like Stealth Rocks in Gen V and how they were almost always assumed and how they are sometimes this Gen). Mega Lucario forces switches and can easily obtain the boosts it needs. Also, the Pokemon in question needs Maximum health to even try anything, which is a death sentence on its own right. I also find it a bit silly that your calcs use bulky Base Heracles, but that's just me.

Big O is right though, you can't give Mega Lucario +2 and an attack on the switch-in. The other player will switch in as Mega Lucario either sets up or attacks, so if these Pokemon can OHKO Mega Lucario, then it has to be able to either OHKO them at +2 or 2HKO them unboosted (I said this earlier in the thread as well). So his calcs where the Pokemon get 2HKOed at +2 are perfectly valid. Assuming MLuke is at +2 already before the switch is ridiculous, because it implies that the opponent let it set up without switching to a counter.

Your point about needing maximum health is fair though. That's one of the things that makes me lean towards banning, that most of Mega Lucario's counters can be worn down quite easily.

 

[Nysyr]

-snip-

Finding Out Genesects set isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. Learning to look at teams and see the matter in which the team supports itself can show you which set it is pretty easily. Utilizing the calc can show you whether or not it is scarfed or banded (protip, Banded Genesect will 99.999% never be the non shiny version, and SG needs to be shiny).

The way the meta is shaped, Genesect is easy to handle by all playstyles because compared to last gen everything is bulkier, and the special attack nerf did impact genesect to where it lost important 2hkos and ohkos. It's lack of resistance to Dark and Ghost leaves it very vulnerable, and 1on1 it loses to more than Half of the Meta.

 

[Gary]

Gary, I disagree with your opinion that looking at the individual sets is the key, and while I agree that versatility alone should not be a reason for a ban, it should be a factor that is considered-- based on how much versatility comes with consequence, and impacts the game.

BW Jirachi may have run 6 different sets last gen, but for the most part, you would always feel relatively comfortable throwing a Heatran, Gastrodon, Magnezone, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn or what have you out in front of it. The consequences for getting the set wrong were relatively small. Even if Jirachi could screw your switch-in, your switch-in wouldn't get THAT screwed, and you'd still have time and le-way to adjust. Also, you'd know almost immediately what its set was and could adjust accordingly.

Genesect is totally different on this front. It's plethora of sets hide their identity pretty damn well, and you could play an entire game without knowing whether you're fighting Scarf or Expert Belt-- often finding out only when Expert Belt decides to one shot the Gyarados you successfully predict-switched into Flamethrower or Iron Head. You could play an entire game not knowing you're fighting mixed Shift Gear-- until it finds the perfect moment to Shift Gear and sweep a team of remaining pokes that was totally prepared to kill a scarf version.

Getting a hold of Genesect's identity is too challenging, and even "predicting" around it is hard because of U-Turn. Having a team bludgened to death by U-Turn without being able to fight back is not unusual at all.

Just like with Luke-- Luke has only 2 sets but the "versatility" of just two sets is a major issue when the consequence of getting it wrong is immediate, and often game-ending.


Pokemon is a game of skill based on information management-- and when it's impossible to reasonably manage information on a certain Pokemon, that Pokemon is creating a problem for a skill-based metagame.

Oh no don't get me wrong I definitely wasn't saying that BW Jirachi and Gene were similar in a way that they're almost the same. I was just using it as an example for my versatility argument, stating how Jirachi was an incredible versatile Pokemon, but unlike Gene there were qualities about it that didn't make it broken. As you said, Jirachi couldn't really get away with bluffing or hiding that certain move as easily as Gene can, except for maybe E-Belt Rachi, but my point was to hopefully convince people that versatility should only be factored into the ban, because simply stating that something can run 8 sets and should be banned, it just doesn't seem like the right way to banning things.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Oh no don't get me wrong I definitely wasn't saying that BW Jirachi and Gene were similar in a way that they're almost the same. I was just using it as an example for my versatility argument, stating how Jirachi was an incredible versatile Pokemon, but unlike Gene there were qualities about it that didn't make it broken. As you said, Jirachi couldn't really get away with bluffing or hiding that certain move as easily as Gene can, except for maybe E-Belt Rachi, but my point was to hopefully convince people that versatility should only be factored into the ban, because simply stating that something can run 8 sets and should be banned, it just doesn't seem like the right way to banning things.

Don't get me wrong-- I believe you highlighted a very important point about Gene (and even about Luke). Versatility alone shouldn't be a reason for a ban-- I totally agree. The question around versatility lies around whether said versatility comes with consequences that make good information management, strategy, and good plays impossible or not.

With Jirachi, skill based play is possible even if Jirachi hits your Hippow switch-in with Water Pulse and confuses it.

With Genesect, it's much harder to justify when you hit their Genesect switch-in with your own U-turn, and despite having momentum on your side-- you realize there's not a single Pokemon on your team that is a good switch in.

Not a single one that isn't destroyed by one of its potential sets (unless you have Heatran).

 

[zaephirian]

MegaLuc will go: he can be either physical, or special (even mixed) with 2boost/1turn set up that the player cannot prepare well in less than 2 turns.
Balancing factor: Talonflame
Genesect will stay: this one is the polemic call, it is a phenomenal pivot (I use it as staple on my teams), but it is manageable, with other pokemon, still, U-Turning gains free advantage, unfair, but manageable, still it limits team building and makes you prepare specific counters for it.
Balancing factor: Talonflame, Conkeldurr, Deoxys Speed, Fire Scarfers
Deoxys Speed will stay and even go UU: this one does 2 things, hit's scarfers (Genesect and Keldeo) and sets up entry hazards, it is a good set-uper, but with Priority Taunt in the game and latter easy removal of the hazards, this ones set-up is easily cut-off, very good, but specific (it needs at least a super-effective hit to do the job).
Balancing factor: Thundurus, Kelfki, Anything Bulky, Defog's buff

 

[rachet67]

Genesect, although extremely versitile, effective at what it does, and stupidly easy to abuse, doesn't really hinder any playstyle. Stall, bulky offense, and HO all have reasonable answers to it. Almost all teams will have at least a couple pokemon, not specifically for Gensect at all, that don't take a lot of damage from genesect and can KO easily or wear it down. Because it doesn't really seem to hinder any specific playstyle or force anyone to run obscure checks (most checks and counters are common pokemon anyways) I don't see why it needs to be banned from OU.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

MegaLuc will go: he can be either physical, or special (even mixed) with 2boost/1turn set up that the player cannot prepare well in less than 2 turns.
Balancing factor: Talonflame
Genesect will stay: this one is the polemic call, it is a phenomenal pivot (I use it as staple on my teams), but it is manageable, with other pokemon, still, U-Turning gains free advantage, unfair, but manageable, still it limits team building and makes you prepare specific counters for it.
Balancing factor: Talonflame, Conkeldurr, Deoxys Speed, Fire Scarfers
Deoxys Speed will stay and even go UU: this one does 2 things, hit's scarfers (Genesect and Keldeo) and sets up entry hazards, it is a good set-uper, but with Priority Taunt in the game and latter easy removal of the hazards, this ones set-up is easily cut-off, very good, but specific (it needs at least a super-effective hit to do the job).
Balancing factor: Thundurus, Kelfki, Anything Bulky, Defog's buff

How do Talonflame and Conkeldurr balance Genesect? They bypass its speed, but it won't usually go into those threats, and if its locked into a non SE move, it'll just switch out. I get the fire scarfer, but of the OU viable fire types (or fire type users), Heatran doesn't do choice, Charizard can't run items (it can set up a DD and outspeed, but that's not exactly reliable), Infernape works, but he's hard to fit on a team, Talonflame wearing a scarf? lol, and Entei who could work, but he's not really a scarfer either. There's also stuff like mixmence with a scarf, but in general, there's just not that many common things that can comfortably take this guy on.

Genesect, although extremely versitile, effective at what it does, and stupidly easy to abuse, doesn't really hinder any playstyle. Stall, bulky offense, and HO all have reasonable answers to it. Almost all teams will have at least a couple pokemon, not specifically for Gensect at all, that don't take a lot of damage from genesect and can KO easily or wear it down. Because it doesn't really seem to hinder any specific playstyle or force anyone to run obscure checks (most checks and counters are common pokemon anyways) I don't see why it needs to be banned from OU.

I'm gonna argue he does hinder playing styles. Since its impossible to nail this guy down, people will keep him as a pocket pokemon, bringing him in to cause trouble, then bringing him back out without much penalty. Walls and such can protect your pokemon, but they can't remove Genesect, so it'll often stay a threat throughout the match. I posted earlier that I hate genesect's ability to hinder just about any sweeper as it outspeeds all but the speed boosting ones and can cause decent damage to even the best of them. I realize that fast'n'frail is going out of style anyway, but this guy's a huge reason its almost impossible to use.

 

[Aquaslash]

It's a playstyle thing. Stall players say he's borked to hell and back, Balanced and HO players shrug their shoulders mostly.

You know, I'm actually tempted to ladder now just so I can pitch in a vote. I've only been swept by mega luke ONCE and that was after he got baton passed a swords dance and like, +4 speed. At that point, anybody can sweep. I've struggled more with things like Talonflame and Aegislash more than I've ever struggled with any lucario variant, mega or not.

 

[sidakarya]

Genesect, although extremely versitile, effective at what it does, and stupidly easy to abuse, doesn't really hinder any playstyle. Stall, bulky offense, and HO all have reasonable answers to it. Almost all teams will have at least a couple pokemon, not specifically for Gensect at all, that don't take a lot of damage from genesect and can KO easily or wear it down. Because it doesn't really seem to hinder any specific playstyle or force anyone to run obscure checks (most checks and counters are common pokemon anyways) I don't see why it needs to be banned from OU.

I'd argue, that it does. Bulkier styles find it difficult to be worn down by its constant U-Turns, especially with hazards up. And as scarved Genesect is U-Turning, it's very often out of harm's way. The Download boost it gets creates an easy mindgame merely by its presence. You'd think with a SAtk-boost, it would Ice Beam, but whoops! Genesect's gone and there's another Pokémon...!

Now this is only talking about Scarf, the most common variant. That's just one set. It doesn't get into the countless sets bluffing Scarf (Ebelt, Band) nor physical Scarf sets. And if it sets up Shift Gear on what you think is your predicted switch-in, then good luck...

 

[rachet67]

I'd argue, that it does. Bulkier styles find it difficult to be worn down by its constant U-Turns, especially with hazards up. With HO, you have to have powers of clairvoyance to predict its move right, otherwise you'll lose something. And as scarved Genesect is U-Turning, it's very often out of harm's way. The Download boost it gets creates an easy mindgame just because of its presence. You'd think with a SAtk-boost, it would Ice Beam, but whoops! Genesect's gone and there's another Pokémon...!

Now this is only talking about Scarf, the most common variant. That's just one set. It doesn't get into the countless sets bluffing Scarf (Ebelt, Band) nor physical Scarf sets. And if it sets up Shift Gear on what you think is your predicted switch-in, then good luck...

You do have to remember that genesect is worn down by stealth rock as well though, especially if it U-turns in and out a lot. Stall should pokes that can easily take a U-turn and heal of damage. Besides that, it can't control the boost it gets entirely, and un-boosted moves are generally unimpressive (unless coming from band). It also is pretty frail and can be taken out by strong neutral attacks. You're right about mind games, which is why it is a very good pokemon (no denying that). I'm so far not convinced that its deserving of a ban, especially its scarf set, but I can see how its ability to fake scarf sets with band might push it over.

 

[sidakarya]

You do have to remember that genesect is worn down by stealth rock as well though, especially if it U-turns in and out a lot. Stall should pokes that can easily take a U-turn and heal of damage. Besides that, it can't control the boost it gets entirely, and un-boosted moves are generally unimpressive (unless coming from band). It also is pretty frail and can be taken out by strong neutral attacks. You're right about mind games, which is why it is a very good pokemon (no denying that). I'm so far not convinced that its deserving of a ban, especially its scarf set, but I can see how its ability to fake scarf sets with band might push it over.

I'd argue, that Stealth Rock is less of a problem for Genesect. Because of the widespread hazard control on many teams, it actually has an easier time switching in and out. (Even with Defog, which is often used in the same team as Stealth Rock)

The problem with asking walls to take U-Turns is that as they do, they're forced to answer whatever Pokémon, that threatens them. No other Pokémon can gain momentum this easily as Genesect, and with enough time, switching out with more pressing matters on hand than healing, they do get worn down.

And 71/95/95 isn't exactly frail. It's not very far away from Rotom-A's 50/105/105 or even Togekiss' 85/95/115. Especially not with a type with nine resistances and only one weakness.

 

[zaephirian]

How do Talonflame and Conkeldurr balance Genesect? They bypass its speed, but it won't usually go into those threats, and if its locked into a non SE move, it'll just switch out. I get the fire scarfer, but of the OU viable fire types (or fire type users), Heatran doesn't do choice, Charizard can't run items (it can set up a DD and outspeed, but that's not exactly reliable), Infernape works, but he's hard to fit on a team, Talonflame wearing a scarf? lol, and Entei who could work, but he's not really a scarfer either. There's also stuff like mixmence with a scarf, but in general, there's just not that many common things that can comfortably take this guy on.

I mean any fire scarfed move.

Deoxys-S in UU? Surely you jest.

It wasn't that much used, as of December :

| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
| 54 | Deoxys-Speed | 3.50185% | 87172 | 2.845% | 77129 | 3.164% |

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +

 

[Big O]

You made some really good points here but the issue is that I just saw "Guaranteed 2HKO" for a good deal of those. This means that you have to get a free switch to take a hit and retaliate, where is that free switch going to come from? Sacking a Pokemon?. Not only that, the EVs in your calcs had all been specialised to take on a particular set. What happens when you face a different set to the one you've set up to check.

In the calcs I posted, I already applied MLuc getting a boost when he outspeeds them. I also put in calcs for priority in the case he attacks 2x instead of boosting then attacking (doing more damage than a +2 priority attack). I neglected to put choice scarf in the Nidoking calcs which lead to people being confused on the point of priority calcs (despite mentioning below the calcs that it is a scarf set). Also I based the calcs on the best typical coverage/stab moves MLuc uses. I did however briefly mention stone miss beating the Volcarona set and that eq on aegis can be played around/mitigated via air balloon/shuca berry.

Just to be clear, in order to beat the Hera set I posted MLuc would have to run either hp flying or land a +2 hyper beam/giga impact. To beat the Nidoking set, MLuc would have to eq it on the switch in and have espd/bp. To be fair the calcs are from max health, but is it really expecting too much to make sure said counter stays healthy until MLuc presents itself (even if it means not using it until MLuc switches in)? Just like one assumes a smart player keeps MLuc healthy until potential threats are gone or weakened, a smart player should keep their counters healthy enough to take on what they need to counter right?

 

[rachet67]

I'd argue, that Stealth Rock is less of a problem for Genesect. Because of the widespread hazard control on many teams, it actually has an easier time switching in and out. (Even with Defog, which is often used in the same team as Stealth Rock)

The problem with asking walls to take U-Turns is that as they do, they're forced to answer whatever Pokémon, that threatens them. No other Pokémon can gain momentum this easily as Genesect, and with enough time, switching out with more pressing matters on hand than healing, they do get worn down.

And 71/95/95 isn't exactly frail. It's not very far away from Rotom-A's 50/105/105 or even Togekiss' 85/95/115. Especially not with a type with nine resistances and only one weakness.

But its neutral to dark, water, ground, rock, and fighting, all types that usually come off of really strong pokemon (I put dark there as it can be pursuit trapped by band tyranitar). Its resists really aren't that fantastic (grass, fairy, normal, dragon, bug). And rotom and togekiss are bulky because they have decent defensive stats, better defensive typing, and invest in the stats. Genesect doesn't generally invest in defense. On the contrary, it usually runs Naive or Hasty. Because defog is wide spread and affects both sides maybe that shouldn't be a part of the argument at all then. I agree that gensects u-turn allows a counter to switch in onto a wall, but on a stall team that wall may take almost no damage, and another wall simply switches in to whatever is put before it (hopefully not something ridiculously broken like Mega Lucario). Obviously this is not an ideal situation, but I don't think it makes genesect broken enough to be banished to ubers.

 

[HackerKing]

omigod they're broken as all hell

Haha, yeah.

The real problem with Genesect, to me, is that the second you send it in you gain a bunch of momentum. Free switch in? Send in genesect. Opponent's got a weak pokemon out? Switch in genesect. It like Scizor got good mixed attacking stats, a nice special movepool, and a free +1 boost all in one.

I've started running a mixed genesect to take advantage of both download boosts and it's incredible. No matter what you're up against you can come out on top.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

But its neutral to dark, water, ground, rock, and fighting, all types that usually come off of really strong pokemon (I put dark there as it can be pursuit trapped by band tyranitar). Its resists really aren't that fantastic (grass, fairy, normal, dragon, bug). And rotom and togekiss are bulky because they have decent defensive stats, better defensive typing, and invest in the stats. Genesect doesn't generally invest in defense. On the contrary, it usually runs Naive or Hasty. Because defog is wide spread and affects both sides maybe that shouldn't be a part of the argument at all then. I agree that gensects u-turn allows a counter to switch in onto a wall, but on a stall team that wall may take almost no damage, and another wall simply switches in to whatever is put before it (hopefully not something ridiculously broken like Mega Lucario). Obviously this is not an ideal situation, but I don't think it makes genesect broken enough to be banished to ubers.

I agree that Genesect is not as effective against stall, but I dislike the idea that pokemon could turn into a rock-paper-scissors game where if you have a team that's not built to fight your opponent's you have a very hard time winning (this is also why I really hate 1 on 1 fights). Almost every offensive pokemon has a reason to fear Genesect revenge killing them (or crippling them on the U-Turn), and with download and viable mixed stats, not even defensive pokemon feel totally safe. Its immune to poison, outspeeds every WoW in the game except Sableye, and switches out so much that Leech seed rarely does more than 12% damage, so non offensive pokemon have trouble doing much damage to it at all. Even the "new" stall strategies have trouble with it as it can hit a lot of them for big damage if they try to set up, and even if they accurately predict its moves, it often just U-turns out giving the momentum back to your opponent

 

[Flamer]

In the calcs I posted, I already applied MLuc getting a boost when he outspeeds them. I also put in calcs for priority in the case he attacks 2x instead of boosting then attacking (doing more damage than a +2 priority attack). I neglected to put choice scarf in the Nidoking calcs which lead to people being confused on the point of priority calcs (despite mentioning below the calcs that it is a scarf set). Also I based the calcs on the best typical coverage/stab moves MLuc uses. I did however briefly mention stone miss beating the Volcarona set and that eq on aegis can be played around/mitigated via air balloon/shuca berry.

Just to be clear, in order to beat the Hera set I posted MLuc would have to run either hp flying or land a +2 hyper beam/giga impact. To beat the Nidoking set, MLuc would have to eq it on the switch in and have espd/bp. To be fair the calcs are from max health, but is it really expecting too much to make sure said counter stays healthy until MLuc presents itself (even if it means not using it until MLuc switches in)? Just like one assumes a smart player keeps MLuc healthy until potential threats are gone or weakened, a smart player should keep their counters healthy enough to take on what they need to counter right?

Yeah i realised that. You again make a good point but Lucario still almost irreparably dents most of the pokemon in question, apart from Amoongus, who can Regenerate back up, Slowbro isn't considered because it cannot take Special on with using AV, which is not a great idea.

 

[rachet67]

I agree that Genesect is not as effective against stall, but I dislike the idea that pokemon could turn into a rock-paper-scissors game where if you have a team that's not built to fight your opponent's you have a very hard time winning (this is also why I really hate 1 on 1 fights). Almost every offensive pokemon has a reason to fear Genesect revenge killing them (or crippling them on the U-Turn), and with download and viable mixed stats, not even defensive pokemon feel totally safe. Its immune to poison, outspeeds every WoW in the game except Sableye, and switches out so much that Leech seed rarely does more than 12% damage, so non offensive pokemon have trouble doing much damage to it at all. Even the "new" stall strategies have trouble with it as it can hit a lot of them for big damage if they try to set up, and even if they accurately predict its moves, it often just U-turns out giving the momentum back to your opponent

Gensect doesn't necessarily need to be taken out in one turn as it has no form of recovery. Even though a lot of offensive pokemon do fear its ability to revenge kill, if it doesn't get the right boost or is the wrong set (physical or special) it can't always pull this off. Pokemon like tyranitar, banded talonflame, aegislash, volcorona, or heatran don't fear it all. Personally, I'm all for a pokemon that punishes HO slightly and makes stall and bulky offense more viable, as the trend has been the opposite for the last few generations. However, with the momentum Gensect does give HO teams, I'm not sure thats actually true. Banded U-turn hurts like a bitch though, I wish there was more discussion on that.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 273-322 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Jamesbroispx]

Of the Three, Genesect definitely has to go. Being the premier bug/ steel pokemon ahead of Scizor should say a lot for its power. His power and coverage are just ridiculous; his ability to fill special or physical roles, depending on your teams needs, makes him fearsome. He's unpredictable, and hits so hard with U-turns to get out of danger in makes him so difficult to stop. He's significantly faster than Scizor too, and you can really feel it. I've struggled to shut him down unless I''m packing Talonflame or fire scarfers, and even then, 71/95/95 can take a hit, especially if you invest in his defences, which you could afford to with the download boosts. That's not even mentioning his Choice options; band explosions and ScarfTurns can be added to the list of options this guy has, and all of it makes him so hard to predict and shut down with any consistency.

Conversly, I've never had much issue with mega Lucario, I don't find him to be meta-breaking or anything. I don't know if just because the teams I build deal with him naturally, but his options are usually a lot narrower than Genesect. You know there's no item, and most likely flash cannon/ CC/ Bullet Punch/ boost. Common pokemon like Azumarill, Gliscor, Sableye and Keldeo (to name a few I've had success with) seem to deal with it. Burns weaken him significantly too. I can't see how MegaLuc is broken to a point where he should be banned from the meta.

As for Deo-S, he's not the threat now that he was. With battle preview, his utility as a lead is nerfed. Any decent attackers with priority offence will deal with him. I don't think he's terrorizing this powerful meta.

 

[Photofluid]

I'd argue, that Stealth Rock is less of a problem for Genesect. Because of the widespread hazard control on many teams, it actually has an easier time switching in and out. (Even with Defog, which is often used in the same team as Stealth Rock)

The problem with asking walls to take U-Turns is that as they do, they're forced to answer whatever Pokémon, that threatens them. No other Pokémon can gain momentum this easily as Genesect, and with enough time, switching out with more pressing matters on hand than healing, they do get worn down.

And 71/95/95 isn't exactly frail. It's not very far away from Rotom-A's 50/105/105 or even Togekiss' 85/95/115. Especially not with a type with nine resistances and only one weakness.

But its neutral to dark, water, ground, rock, and fighting, all types that usually come off of really strong pokemon (I put dark there as it can be pursuit trapped by band tyranitar). Its resists really aren't that fantastic (grass, fairy, normal, dragon, bug). And rotom and togekiss are bulky because they have decent defensive stats, better defensive typing, and invest in the stats. Genesect doesn't generally invest in defense. On the contrary, it usually runs Naive or Hasty. Because defog is wide spread and affects both sides maybe that shouldn't be a part of the argument at all then. I agree that gensects u-turn allows a counter to switch in onto a wall, but on a stall team that wall may take almost no damage, and another wall simply switches in to whatever is put before it (hopefully not something ridiculously broken like Mega Lucario). Obviously this is not an ideal situation, but I don't think it makes genesect broken enough to be banished to ubers.

One thing to add on, U-turning out is what most pivot has been constantly doing anyway, while I somehow agree that Voltturn is overpowered and need nerf (5BP gone perhaps), that was the fault of the meta but not of the pokemon. The arguement is similar to why Keldeo had not go to Uber, and Genesect certainly does not abuse U-turn like how Excadrill has been abusing sand support.

 

[SansNickel]

I've personally made reqs (on the current ladder) without using any of the three, and if I make it on the suspect ladder I'll be voting for genesect and mega-lucario to go. Deoxys-s is really good, but I never think "oh crap deoxys-s." It just doesn't seem to have enough of an impact, with defog lessening the impact it has, and stuff like aegislash walling psycho boost + superpower while not really caring about fire punch which is relatively weak, plus it'll be minds games with king's shield.

Genesect can run a few sets, and 120/120 offensive stats is just great. Its special set has great coverage, whether scarf or a bluff (expert belt), and the banded +1 extremespeed is crazy good late game. Shift gear is good too. The main thing is really just u-turn, STAB + 120 attack + momentum is just really good in the meta. Genesect isn't CRAZY powerful / fast, but its presence simply leads to a completely different type of metagame.

The main problem with Mega-Lucario is it being special/physical changes everything (unlike genesect where heatran and rotom-h doesn't really care regardless). You have stuff like zapdos, gyarados which resist both STABs and aren't weak to its common dark coverage but they're also both SR-weak. Zapdos can't take physical sets unless you tailor it to be physically defensive which is uncommon.

If I make reqs I'll be voting to keep Deo-S, and ban Genesect and Mega Lucario.

 

[Jukain]

You know, I'm actually tempted to ladder now just so I can pitch in a vote. I've only been swept by mega luke ONCE and that was after he got baton passed a swords dance and like, +4 speed. At that point, anybody can sweep. I've struggled more with things like Talonflame and Aegislash more than I've ever struggled with any lucario variant, mega or not.

So basically you're telling me no one's ever haxed your counters, you've never made a misstep, you've never accidentally made a team somewhat weak to Mega Lucario.

It's also never ripped huge holes in your team, allowing something else to clean.

Calling bullshit.

Yeah i realised that. You again make a good point but Lucario still almost irreparably dents most of the pokemon in question, apart from Amoongus, who can Regenerate back up, Slowbro isn't considered because it cannot take Special on with using AV, which is not a great idea.

AV Slowbro is possibly it's best set atm BECAUSE of Mega Lucario, and it can handle some other things. Regenerator is fine for recovery, and Slowbro has an excellent offensive movepool with high-powered attacks to utilize.

Gensect doesn't necessarily need to be taken out in one turn as it has no form of recovery. Even though a lot of offensive pokemon do fear its ability to revenge kill, if it doesn't get the right boost or is the wrong set (physical or special) it can't always pull this off. Pokemon like tyranitar or banded talonflame don't fear it all. Personally, I'm all for a pokemon that punishes HO slightly and makes stall and bulky offense more viable, as the trend has been the opposite for the last few generations. Banded U-turn hurts like a bitch though, I wish there was more discussion on that.

Genesect does not punish HO that much, really. Such teams often have things like Talonflame that can easily take it out, or something like Mega Lucario, or Mega Charizard Y, or Mega Charizard X, that laughs at it. Thundurus-I is a common feature, too, and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or if it's one of those physical Defiant sets just deal some damage or throw out a U-turn of its own.

On the other hand, Genesect fits onto every single HO team in the metagame (there's literally no reason not to run it and you're disadvantaging yourself not to), whether as a revenge killer, EBelt attacker, CB hole puncher/priority revenge killer, or Shift Gear sweeper...I'm sure you know that Genesect can run a basically infinite amount of sets and succeed. It definitely benefits HO more than it hurts it.

One thing to add on, U-turning out is what most pivot has been constantly doing anyway, while I somehow agree that Voltturn is overpowered and need nerf (5BP gone perhaps), that was the fault of the meta but not of the pokemon. The arguement is similar to why Keldeo had not go to Uber, and Genesect certainly does not abuse U-turn like how Excadrill has been abusing sand support.

Yes, but Genesect can punish virtually everything it would U-turn on, unlike many of these pivots. Landorus-T? Good luck hurting [insert physically bulky Pokemon here]. Rotom-W? You know how much Volt Switch/Hydro Pump is walled by. Genesect can do something to virtually all of its counters except Heatran with the right set, and that's why you have teammates (taking out Heatran is not that hard), and you can run HP Ground to hurt it each time it switches in if you really want to. With the right set is a key term -- against Genesect, you can rarely be sure.

Of the Three, Genesect definitely has to go. Being the premier bug/ steel pokemon ahead of Scizor should say a lot for its power. His power and coverage are just ridiculous; his ability to fill special or physical roles, depending on your teams needs, makes him fearsome. He's unpredictable, and hits so hard with U-turns to get out of danger in makes him so difficult to stop. He's significantly faster than Scizor too, and you can really feel it. I've struggled to shut him down unless I''m packing Talonflame or fire scarfers, and even then, 71/95/95 can take a hit, especially if you invest in his defences, which you could afford to with the download boosts. That's not even mentioning his Choice options; band explosions and ScarfTurns can be added to the list of options this guy has, and all of it makes him so hard to predict and shut down with any consistency.

Conversly, I've never had much issue with mega Lucario, I don't find him to be meta-breaking or anything. I don't know if just because the teams I build deal with him naturally, but his options are usually a lot narrower than Genesect. You know there's no item, and most likely flash cannon/ CC/ Bullet Punch/ boost. Common pokemon like Azumarill, Gliscor, Sableye and Keldeo (to name a few I've had success with) seem to deal with it. Burns weaken him significantly too. I can't see how MegaLuc is broken to a point where he should be banned from the meta.

As for Deo-S, he's not the threat now that he was. With battle preview, his utility as a lead is nerfed. Any decent attackers with priority offence will deal with him. I don't think he's terrorizing this powerful meta.

It sounds like you haven't faced many NP variants, which rip right through Gliscor, Sableye, and Keldeo... NP is probably the broken set if you were to pick one, there's so little that can handle it (can expand if required, but the argument has already been dealt with itt).

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Gensect doesn't necessarily need to be taken out in one turn as it has no form of recovery. Even though a lot of offensive pokemon do fear its ability to revenge kill, if it doesn't get the right boost or is the wrong set (physical or special) it can't always pull this off. Pokemon like tyranitar, banded talonflame, aegislash, volcorona, or heatran don't fear it all. Personally, I'm all for a pokemon that punishes HO slightly and makes stall and bulky offense more viable, as the trend has been the opposite for the last few generations. However, with the momentum Gensect does give HO teams, I'm not sure thats actually true. Banded U-turn hurts like a bitch though, I wish there was more discussion on that.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 273-322 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Then it looks like we're at an impasse, at least when it comes to how it affects the metagame. I think the fact that it single handedly reduces offensive viability makes it ban worthy, but if you don't, then I don't really have anything to say. Its performance on the other hand is still up to debate. Getting revenge killed by Talonflame isn't that big of a deal, Talonflame's probably the best revenge killer the game has ever seen. The way it gets momentum as a pivot is imo way too abusable. The only way to beat it really is to wear it down, but that takes time, which Genesect can use to its advantage. Add on the pain of having to figure out which moves its running, I believe its broken, and warrents a ban. I still would like to hear counter arguments though.