It has a horrible movepool, at least offensively. Some dark, ghost, and normal moves, and gunk shot. Even for prankster it just has will-o-wisp and destiny bond that are worth anything.
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XY NU Theorymon Discussion
- Thread starter DTC
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Two big threats I'm seeing in NU this gen are assault vest muk as a bulky attacker as muk already has awesome special defense and also I'm thinking belly drum+unburden slurpuff will be awesome especially with momento or screens as there won't be many viable steel types in NU to wall it.
Mega Banette is underestimated. Taunt + WoW fucks up stall teams like how Mew does. Prankster Destiny Bond + slow Shadow Claw fucks up offensive teams since offensive mons can either kill it and die or take an insanely powerful Shadow Claw on its face. Especially when most of the good normal and dark types in the game are physical attackers, which do not enjoy taking a burn. Banette is a big threat to any team archetypes. I don't think it will end up in NU.
I just want to mention two XY Pokemon who have the potential of going to the RU tier; Slurpuff and Male Meowstic. I'm not saying that they will be or even that they should, especially since they are both countered by Skuntank. I'm just saying they have the potential.
Slurpuff has both Belly Drum and the ability Unburden. This alone has the potential to sweep unsuspecting teams limited only by it's poor physical movepool of Return, Rough Play and Thief. That said, as previously mentioned in the Mightyena discussion, Fairy/Dark hits the entire tier save for Steel/Fairy for neutral coverage so this isn't that big of a limiter. On top of that, Slurpuff has moderately good bulk to it and isn't limited to only a physical role capable if outperformed cleric and decent Calm Mind user.
Male Meowstic is an amazing support Pokemon in the tier due to it's priority Dual Screens and Sunny Day/Rain Dance. It also has a plethora of other status moves at it's disposal including infamous T-Wave+Swagger Combo, Fake Out, and priority Mean Look & Assist (Too bad it doesn't work with Whirlwind anymore). It also has the potential of outperforming the Female Meowstic as a Calm Mind user due to it being almost guaranteed to go off before being hit by the opponent.
Female Meowstic on the other hand can take advantage of it's good 104 speed, passable 83 special attack and the ability Competitive. That said, while good in the tier doesn't stand out all to much and is mostly outshadowed by Kadabra sad to say.
Slurpuff has both Belly Drum and the ability Unburden. This alone has the potential to sweep unsuspecting teams limited only by it's poor physical movepool of Return, Rough Play and Thief. That said, as previously mentioned in the Mightyena discussion, Fairy/Dark hits the entire tier save for Steel/Fairy for neutral coverage so this isn't that big of a limiter. On top of that, Slurpuff has moderately good bulk to it and isn't limited to only a physical role capable if outperformed cleric and decent Calm Mind user.
Male Meowstic is an amazing support Pokemon in the tier due to it's priority Dual Screens and Sunny Day/Rain Dance. It also has a plethora of other status moves at it's disposal including infamous T-Wave+Swagger Combo, Fake Out, and priority Mean Look & Assist (Too bad it doesn't work with Whirlwind anymore). It also has the potential of outperforming the Female Meowstic as a Calm Mind user due to it being almost guaranteed to go off before being hit by the opponent.
Female Meowstic on the other hand can take advantage of it's good 104 speed, passable 83 special attack and the ability Competitive. That said, while good in the tier doesn't stand out all to much and is mostly outshadowed by Kadabra sad to say.
I am actually thinking my suspicious of Lilligant dropping will be correct. Unless someone can tell me how it would be broken since Zard, Mandibuzz, and Scolipede are gone. It's very much NU material, and besides, no one really uses it anymore :P. Then again, Pokemon like Sawsbuck will keep it in check, but then again, HP Fire. Special Walls, but then it can run the rare HP Fighting. And for the poisons, HP Ground. However, it suffers major 4mss, and really only limited to the nerfed Hidden Power and the situational Dream Eater for coverage. As for the flyings and fires (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CAMERUPT AND COMBUSKEN), HP Rock. As well as a sleep nerf.
Besides, Lily dropping will mean it will probably have competition with Masquerain as a Quiver Dancer due to the latter's access to Defog and Sticky Web, as well as the ability to QuiverPass. However, Lily has better bulk and more offensive presence, as well as more speed. (I believe)
(And please XY RU ladder (When that gets released) let Drapion/Sandslash/Dusknoir drop. I don't want another Metang in RU incident)
Besides, Lily dropping will mean it will probably have competition with Masquerain as a Quiver Dancer due to the latter's access to Defog and Sticky Web, as well as the ability to QuiverPass. However, Lily has better bulk and more offensive presence, as well as more speed. (I believe)
(And please XY RU ladder (When that gets released) let Drapion/Sandslash/Dusknoir drop. I don't want another Metang in RU incident)
Lilligant may prove to be too strong for the NU. With Charizard, Mandibuzz, Scolipede, and Jynx most likely leaving us, we have little to no pokemon to check it. While in NU does reside such amazing counters as Roselia, Exeggutor, etc. We must question whether it is too strong for NU. When looking at it's stats, we can see that it can be a major issue, as with the 3 previously stated pokemon removed, the NU metagame will as a whole slow down. 95 may no longer be the "golden tier", and thus lilligant may pose as a huge threat, as at +1 and a base 90 speed it can be difficult for a slower metagame to stop. It has everything that Serperior and Simisage don't have. Quiver Dance. Sleep Powder. Better offensive presence. Etc. All this make lilligant easily stand out in the NU metagame as the single best grass sweeper hands down if it were to enter.
Of course, it still may enter. But from my viewpoint, the sheer need to stop it and it's being able to warp teambuilding to try to halt it's sweeping may make it a tad op.
Of course, it still may enter. But from my viewpoint, the sheer need to stop it and it's being able to warp teambuilding to try to halt it's sweeping may make it a tad op.
To be honest, if Lilligant did end up in NU, it would most likely be really strong by NU standards. I get that Charizard, Mandibuzz, and Scolipede are guaranteed to be out of this tier, but 90 Speed is still very fast by NU standards; to be honest I can't think of much that can beat Lilligant after a QD boost other than maybe Primeape. NU has a bunch of mons slower than Lilligant, since before the Scolipede meta the speed to beat was 80-85, which Lilligant beats. QD is such a cheap move (so is Sleep Powder) and with enough boosts Lilligant can be very hard to stop. The HP nerf did hurt it but it still gets nice coverage with Giga Drain and HP Rock/Fire. Scarf Lilligant would also be fun to just cripple something with Sleep Powder, hit hard with Leaf Storm, and of course Healing Wish.
Honestly though I still think Lilligant has some shot at maintaining its RU status due to Quiver Dance still being a cheap move, but of course the HP nerf and the tier trickle-down effect may make this a possibility.
Poor Lilligant got the short end of the stick, especially since Whimsicott and Scolipede got some cool buffs.
Honestly though I still think Lilligant has some shot at maintaining its RU status due to Quiver Dance still being a cheap move, but of course the HP nerf and the tier trickle-down effect may make this a possibility.
Poor Lilligant got the short end of the stick, especially since Whimsicott and Scolipede got some cool buffs.
With Zard leaving NU, should we rely on Delphox for a Fire-type? Or are other Fire-types in NU going to be better than it?
I doubt that Delphox will end up in NU, most likely landing itself in RU or UU, but we might get Pyroar which is actually pretty nifty. Pyroar has base 109 Sp. Atk and 106 Speed which is pretty impressive, but what brings it down is its lackluster movepool. Fire and Normal-Type STAB are cool and all, but they don't have the best of coverage especially when you consider all of the Rock-types in NU. For coverage it seems Pyroar only get Dark Pulse and HP Fighting which is a bit disappointing. A Choice Specs set will probably be its best option in NU, considering that its Fire Blasts will hit just as hard as Charizard's with the advantage of being faster than Charizard.
Scarf Ape, Jynx, Sawsbuck and Haunter can all revenge lilligant at +1 (and Scarf Pyroar, which I'm gonna be spamming the ladder with once NU is up), while Sap Sipper Miltank walls it all day and Lickilicky phazes away its boosts. It also has to chose between being walled by grass types or flying types, thanks to its god awful coverage (either way, Roselia laughs at it). So, threatening, but not unduly difficult to prepare for or stop.
For some reason, I would like to try a core of Lily/Pyroar/Seismitoad (Or should it be Carracosta?) if Lily does drop. However, I also think I might add Swellow + Sawk to deal with the threats that hamper the core (Mostly Lily's that the other two can't deal with) (Such as Fighting types and the Normal-type walls). Also, Pyroar does get Dark Pulse to deal with Ghost-types like Misdreavus and Haunter. As for the HP is runs, probably Grass/Ground/Rock/Something else.
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 161-192 (53.13 - 63.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thats still quite a bit..
Pyroar will most likely run Grass to deal with Seimitoad / Carracosta / Water Types and Rock Types, or ground to fight opposing Rock or Fire types.
Pyroar also appreciates running Sleep Talk on it's specs set, as it checks the sleep inducers of the metagame (Roselia, Jynx) quite well. You really arent going to need dark pulse, as fire blast will 2HKO all ghosts in the tier lol. Taunt or Substitute works well on pyroar's all out attacking sets as well, because it forces quite a bit of switches.
Lilligant's gonna kill itself doing that, even if it predicts the switch correctly and goes for QD over any of its other moves. Sludge Bomb is doing ~59% minimum to +1 Lilligant- add on Stealth Rock and two rounds of Life Orb recoil, and your lilligant has, at best, under 10% HP. If Spikes are down, SB poisoned, SB got a good damage role, or if Roselia is running any SAtk investment, it's dead, and it's possible that Roselia didn't even go down with it. So personally, I wouldn't stay in on a healthy Roselia, even if I were running Modest, Life Orb, and HP Fire.
Incidentally, are you using a 5th gen damage calc? Showdown's giving me +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 140-166 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO.
Just a few thoughts on the few “NU” Pokémon that we have on the list:
Meowstic-M – Seems a lot better to me than Meowstic-F, simply because of Prankster helping him set himself apart from the rest of the generic Psychic attackers in the tier. He even has Thunder Wave, so we might have another Liepard on our hands, albeit one without access to STAB Foul Play, but he makes up for it with some other fantastic moves. Charm, for instance, can be used to great effect on physical attackers, forcing switches and whatnot if he can take a -2 physical hit. Honestly think he’ll be annoying more than anything.
Aurorus – To be honest, probably one of the worst Pokémon to come out of Generation 6, alongside Dedenne. But whereas Dedenne can actually outpace things and hurt them with its decently powerful Thunderbolt, Aurorus has no such speed, only making up for that in raw power with Refrigerate. Unfortunately, Aurorus just has far too many weaknesses to be able to pull off any kind of effective set, so I don’t really see it being able to be used outside of Hail setting or possibly Trick Room teams (blegh.)
Dedenne – The other terrible Pokémon to come out of Generation 6, and man does it show. It’s Fairy type, yet it only gets Play Rough as a decent Fairy move? I know this horse has been beaten to death, but I’m gonna go ahead and give it another whack. Gamefreak really screwed this little guy over, almost as much as they’ve screwed Farfetch’d over the years. If Dedenne at least had Dazzling Gleam he would be somewhat usable, but as he is now his pathetic movepool has relegated him to the bottom of the barrel for NU, at least for me. Who knows, maybe he’ll catch a break in the future, but I doubt it.
Slurpuff – Out of all of the NU candidates, I believe Slurpuff has the greatest potential. I admit, I’m slightly biased as I just adore the little guy, but to be honest, Unburden is just a fantastic Ability in conjunction with Calm Mind (as we saw with CM Drifblim) and Slurpuff has the moveset to make it work. More than that, he has Belly Drum, and with Unburden and Sitrus Berry that creates a monstrous attacking machine that’s only stopped by Steel types. There’s a reason that they gave him such a limited physical movepool, methinks. Anyway, Slurpuff is going to be fantastic, mark my words!
Furfrou – Now this little guy is quite interesting. With a monstrous physical Defense thanks to its fantastic ability, I don’t think Furfrou is going to be something to take lightly. Its Attack is actually quite decent, and it has a pretty good Speed, to boot (102, which is really good for NU.) Has a nice movepool, with Cotton Guard, Thunder Wave, Roar, Baby-Doll Eyes, U-Turn… it’s going to pack some surprises, that’s for sure. One of the ones I’m really going to be looking out for when NU gets going.
If you disagree at all, please, feel free to point out any flaws in my logic. I'm not perfect, of course, these are just my basic opinions.
Meowstic-M – Seems a lot better to me than Meowstic-F, simply because of Prankster helping him set himself apart from the rest of the generic Psychic attackers in the tier. He even has Thunder Wave, so we might have another Liepard on our hands, albeit one without access to STAB Foul Play, but he makes up for it with some other fantastic moves. Charm, for instance, can be used to great effect on physical attackers, forcing switches and whatnot if he can take a -2 physical hit. Honestly think he’ll be annoying more than anything.
Aurorus – To be honest, probably one of the worst Pokémon to come out of Generation 6, alongside Dedenne. But whereas Dedenne can actually outpace things and hurt them with its decently powerful Thunderbolt, Aurorus has no such speed, only making up for that in raw power with Refrigerate. Unfortunately, Aurorus just has far too many weaknesses to be able to pull off any kind of effective set, so I don’t really see it being able to be used outside of Hail setting or possibly Trick Room teams (blegh.)
Dedenne – The other terrible Pokémon to come out of Generation 6, and man does it show. It’s Fairy type, yet it only gets Play Rough as a decent Fairy move? I know this horse has been beaten to death, but I’m gonna go ahead and give it another whack. Gamefreak really screwed this little guy over, almost as much as they’ve screwed Farfetch’d over the years. If Dedenne at least had Dazzling Gleam he would be somewhat usable, but as he is now his pathetic movepool has relegated him to the bottom of the barrel for NU, at least for me. Who knows, maybe he’ll catch a break in the future, but I doubt it.
Slurpuff – Out of all of the NU candidates, I believe Slurpuff has the greatest potential. I admit, I’m slightly biased as I just adore the little guy, but to be honest, Unburden is just a fantastic Ability in conjunction with Calm Mind (as we saw with CM Drifblim) and Slurpuff has the moveset to make it work. More than that, he has Belly Drum, and with Unburden and Sitrus Berry that creates a monstrous attacking machine that’s only stopped by Steel types. There’s a reason that they gave him such a limited physical movepool, methinks. Anyway, Slurpuff is going to be fantastic, mark my words!
Furfrou – Now this little guy is quite interesting. With a monstrous physical Defense thanks to its fantastic ability, I don’t think Furfrou is going to be something to take lightly. Its Attack is actually quite decent, and it has a pretty good Speed, to boot (102, which is really good for NU.) Has a nice movepool, with Cotton Guard, Thunder Wave, Roar, Baby-Doll Eyes, U-Turn… it’s going to pack some surprises, that’s for sure. One of the ones I’m really going to be looking out for when NU gets going.
If you disagree at all, please, feel free to point out any flaws in my logic. I'm not perfect, of course, these are just my basic opinions.
My little cent on Slurpuff.
Unburden/Slurpuff could be very dangerous. Beyond what properly saucemonkey1 said, a set with Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, and Draining Kiss would be a good resource: an entry vs a physical 'mon and a defensive cotton guard boost, could be a simply scheme to kick and easy recover HP. And about fourth slot? Thunderbold, Surf, Psychic, Flamethrower and Energy Ball, it's up to you!
Unburden/Slurpuff could be very dangerous. Beyond what properly saucemonkey1 said, a set with Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, and Draining Kiss would be a good resource: an entry vs a physical 'mon and a defensive cotton guard boost, could be a simply scheme to kick and easy recover HP. And about fourth slot? Thunderbold, Surf, Psychic, Flamethrower and Energy Ball, it's up to you!
Thunderbolt or Energy Ball wouldn't be a very good choice. It would want something to deal with what it's walled by, which is fire types, poison types and steel types. Surf is probably the best option, hitting all three for neutral or supereffective damage, and hitting Probopass supereffectively.
Please do not forget that Aromatherapy can be used in that space as well to get rid of toxics or thunder waves that are preventing it's sweeping.
I have only listed all moves you can consider about. I think Surf/Flamethrower are more appropiate too, it could depends from team coverage.
You're right. That's a good alternative too.
Idrk whether Slurpuff would be ~broken~ in NU, but I'm really hoping it drops because it'll definitely be really cool to use. Belly Drum and CM make it pretty versatile while its Fairy typing along with passable bulk gives it a solid number of setup opportunities, and Unburden is always fun on something that can use it well. Belly Drum is actually the set I'm looking forward to using the most, although Belly Drum is generally really gimmicky Slurpuff has all the tools it needs to make it work. In particular, the combination of Sitrus Berry and Unburden lets it get up to +6 Attack and +2 Speed in one turn in exchange for only a quarter of its health, which is actually pretty damn scary for teams that lack either a Steel-type or a Scarfer with base 100 Speed and up. There's also the fact that Slurpuff has the bulk and typing to tank nearly every priority move out there which can make revenge killing tricky. CM seems okay too but I think Belly Drum would outshine it a bit due to being less reliant on having multiple setup opportunities to sweep.
As for the sets themselves I would probably use this for Belly Drum:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Return
- Substitute / Protect
Pretty straightforward set, Play Rough nukes, Return is accurate, Sub for predicted status but Protect for Fake Out. 4 HP gets an even number of HP so Sitrus activates after a Belly Drum at full.
CM might look something like:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Dazzling Gleam
- Surf / Flamethrower
I wouldn't use Draining Kiss because it's weak as shit and even with the recovery you won't be likely to stall out a whole lot before they wear you down or crit you or something. The EV spread for this would probably be debatable, a bulkier spread could potentially work to allow your Sub to live certain hits. Sub activates Sitrus after two uses while the last slot is coverage. Surf hits Probopass and Fire-types, while Flamethrower hits Metang and Roselia.
As for the sets themselves I would probably use this for Belly Drum:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Return
- Substitute / Protect
Pretty straightforward set, Play Rough nukes, Return is accurate, Sub for predicted status but Protect for Fake Out. 4 HP gets an even number of HP so Sitrus activates after a Belly Drum at full.
CM might look something like:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Dazzling Gleam
- Surf / Flamethrower
I wouldn't use Draining Kiss because it's weak as shit and even with the recovery you won't be likely to stall out a whole lot before they wear you down or crit you or something. The EV spread for this would probably be debatable, a bulkier spread could potentially work to allow your Sub to live certain hits. Sub activates Sitrus after two uses while the last slot is coverage. Surf hits Probopass and Fire-types, while Flamethrower hits Metang and Roselia.
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The only problem I have with return is it doesn't help with the Pokemon that potentially wall it. Even in situations where Play Rough does more damage, Thief has utility in it's ability to keep it's Unburden boost while gaining a new item like Eviolite to cripple walls and turn some 3HKOs to 2HKOs as well as the ability to steal items that could potentially help it like Life Orb or Choice Band/Scarf. Here are some damage Calcs on potential checks to help illustrate my point. As a side note, without Thief it cannot take on Shedinja with it's physical set.
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perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
Gaining a new item with Thief removes the Unburden boost. Thief is a risky move to use with Slurpuff.
- Aromatisse
- Aurorus
- Carbink
- Dedenne
- Furfrou
- Meowstick
- Pyroar
- Slurpuff
Aromatisse
Aromatisse is... interesting. It has nice bulk, Aromatherapy, Wish, a nice typing, along with an immunity to the counter to every wall: Taunt. The problem I have with it is that it cannot beat Metang, no matter what. Metang is fairly common, even more so now with Charizard out of the tier. It isn't sitting duck (or dancer or whatever it is), it has a pretty nice Special Attack for a wall. Moonblast is also reliable and can aid its bulk, thanks to the secondary effect of Moonblast. I am loving its access to Trick Room, but it seems outclassed by even Duosion in this regard. However, back to the Taunt immunity, this is what I feel could be the main reason Aromatisse will see use in NU. Let's not forget that it has potential offensively, it has Calm Mind to bolster its SpA and I may be biased, but I just love CM Aromatisse! It doesn't have many common weaknesses, that's a plus, even though Poison is one of the most abundant types in NU, so that could be an issue. I honestly can see it being paired well with Metang maybe. Here's the set I feel like will be common:
Aromatisse @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 4 SDef / 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Wish
- Moonblast
- Protect
This is a classic cleric set, but Aromatisse works it. I ran calcs with Metang, and... I was dissapointed:
252+ Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 200-236 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 90-108 (22.1 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
will type rest tomrow falling aslee on laptop
I don't think Slurpuff would be very broken (personally I'm more worried about Sawk :P), but it would certainly be a threat to look out for and serve as a very nice win condition. As of now, almost every Steel-type in NU can stop most Slurpuff sets, the best ones being Bastiodon, Probopass, and Klang, all of which can take even a +1 super effective special attack and retaliate with Roar, Thunder Wave / Flash Cannon, or Gear Grind, and since the likes of Swellow are still with us they'd probably still be in good demand. Weezing, Garbodor, Golbat, Torkoal, and fucking Magcargo lol easily tank Belly Drum Slurpuff; the former four can Haze / Whirlwind / Clear Smog the boosts away, or the latter two can Yawn to ruin Slurpuff's sweep that way. Muk (Assault Vest Muk even) makes short work of any CM Slurpuff that dares step into battle. Phazing in general can discourage Slurpuff from even showing its face, since once its Berry is used up it's sweep or bust.
Need I mention the most surprising (and probably most apparent) thing of all: positive natured base 100 Speed Pokemon with Choice Scarf can still outspeed Unburden Slurpuff. After all, since base 70 Speed Chlorophyll / Swift Swim Pokemon (Victreebel, Ludicolo) have already existed, alongside weather Rocks no less, and NU dealt with them just fine, so what's a base 72 Speed one-time sweeper going to do to NU?
Being reliant on a one-use item, which it cannot Recycle back, is a notable damper on the Pokemon's potential, though this doesn't mean it's unviable outside NU. Even Unnerve can stop it in its tracks, and since Pyroar will inevitably see use (using its least useless ability too), Slurpuff can be kept in check in so many ways to count.
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