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While Rain Teams are not as nearly as easy to play/build as it was in the past it is still a completely viable playstyle with Politoed being the only natural rain setter. Even more so as less teams are weather based so you're not worrying about weather wars and how to keep rain up.
Politoed's Choice Specs set can still wreck house abusing its own rain and has a VERY high chance of 2HKOing a Specially Defensive Mega Venusaur with Psychic:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Venusaur: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Swift Swim is also legal so Kingdra and Kabutops can abuse it.
To avoid this post being completely shit, I would like to ask why Scizor is high in A? I honestly can't see the reason behind, and oh, it also comes some eleven or twelve on the usage list, even more mysterious to me.
Scizor didn't really lose anything from last gen, when it was ridiculously good. In fact, it improved, thanks to the Defog buff, not to mention its Mega-Evolution. Right now, Scizor and Mega Scizor make amazing defoggers, normal Scizor still does that obnoxious CB set, and Mega-Scizor has hugely improved its bulky SD set. Basically, it does several different things extremely well.
And outside of a few MEvos, it's not easy to shut it down either, thanks to access to Knock Off and great coverage options. B or B- is where Tangrwoth should be, for its superb walling abilities as well as longevity and generaly utility. The only thing really holding it back is that it gives free switch-ins to some of the most dangerous MEvos, namely Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Venusaur.
Finally, the next person that mentions blacklisting something will get his post deleted and possibly an infraction.
I've never been that impressed with Assault Vest Tangrowth. It turns Tangrowth into a jack-of-all-trades Pokemon. Its Special Defense with Assault Vest is great, but not outstanding, its Defense isn't spectacular without any investment, it hits moderately hard, but not overwhelmingly so, and it loses out on Sleep Powder.
Though I guess you could say the same thing about Rotom-W.
I've never been that impressed with Assault Vest Tangrowth. It turns Tangrowth into a jack-of-all-trades Pokemon. Its Special Defense with Assault Vest is great, but not outstanding, its Defense isn't spectacular without any investment, it hits moderately hard, but not overwhelmingly so, and it loses out on Sleep Powder.
Though I guess you could say the same thing about Rotom-W.
404 HP / 327 SpD is not outstanding? Just to compare, here is how much AV Tangrowth and SpD Heatran take from LO Aegislash's Shadow Ball (i chose Heatran because it is considered a quite bulky special tank / wall):
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-172 (37.3 - 44.5%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 152-179 (37.6 - 44.3%)
So, AV Tangrowth has similar special bulk to SpD Heatran and better physical bulk. I am not saying that Tangrowth is a better special wall / pivot, just showing how Tangrowth's special bulk is amazing with AV, and is able to take all sort of special hits outside of STAB Fire attacks, and the very few STAB Poison / Flying / Ice special attacks in OU. Factor in Regenerator, and you have yourself one hell of a special tank, which can check a multitude of both physical and special attackers.
I see the situation more and my conclusion is that Donphan is "technically" C tier: it's average, there are way better physical walls but it's one of the few pokemon that can reliable spin. C tier means that it doesn't deserve an OU usage and it should be in UU which is where it really belongs. With this C tier I include partially the presence of defoggers who are better than him like Mandibuzz or Lati@s.
If Excadrill is the Exca that caused the ban to Ubers I agree, but this Excadril with weather nerfed (and Tyranitar usually doesn't use Smooth Rock) is not that Excadrill because the difference in speed was huge (it outspped Deoxys.S which was insane). It's still a great pokemon in general and agreat spinner. But one is an offensive pokemon, the other is defensive. Were have to compare with defensive pokemon, with neither Excadrill (suffers if it isn't a resistance) nor Starmie are. We have to compare with Mega species and here the only one it clearly outclassed it is Mega Blastoise with his great movepool off 90 BP Water Pulse, pseudo-STAB Dark Pulse, pseudo-STAB Aura Sphere, great defenses and Rapid Spin.
But Mega Blastoise, as you can see is a Mega pokemon, which has one big problem: you can only have one. You can use Blastoise, but I doubt is really better than Donphan.
And the casuality is that the "key pokemon" that require spinning, are mainly Mega Evolutions (specially Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard X and Y). A team with one of those Megas can't use Mega Blastoise. I think that's the reason why Donphan has OU usage is that has the niche of being one of the pokemon that can spin with defensive capabilities.
However, if i were use Donphan in the OU metagame, I will do two options:
Using an Assault Vest (compatible with Rapid Spin) set or using it with Leftovers, which in that case I recommend using Special Defense investiment to patch that Special Defenses. And use Knock Off or even Stone Edge over Ice Shard, which is really weak (and 4xweak dragons are not that common).
The case of Jolteon is barely the same. The only pokemon that completely outclassed Jolteon is Mega Manectric, which is itself a Mega Pokemon. People decided to reject it because being outclassed by it, but has the niche of outspeeding Greninja, Talonflame (in a way) and in a lesser way, Starmie whithout having to use the Mega Stone (which is the most valuable slot of your team; using Mega Manectric means no Mega Charizard, no Mega Pinsir, no other excellent Megas).
About other pokemon:
Buisharp is way buffed (the visit of UU proves that) but no, Bisharp is not A+ worthy in my opinion. Sucker Punch has the ways to counter it, without it has average speed, and what's more important, has the three weakness of Steel, one of them being x4. And his defnesive stats are good in physica, average specially.
Clefable is more B+ than anything. Fairy is not that great of a type it's made out to be which all the Steel being rampant, Gengar, Mega Venusaur and Fire types like Mega Charizard, Taonflame, Heatran. And his defenses are good but not great, and his offense is average.
Two of the best Fairies have been great pokemon in UU without the Fiary typing in Gen V and Gen IV (Togekiss in Gen IV OU)
Edit: And one thing: I remember that: Exist pokemon with 7 potentially viable sets Some are more viable than others but in many cases they are different sets that are viable. It doesn't mean in many cases that they are like Mega lucario. In many cases of pokemon with a lot of sets, all the sets has something in common and in many cases, the checks and counter are shared between different sets.
Heatran has this sets as afar as i remember:
-The Specially Defensive Sets, which is the "standard" set.
-Bulky Attacker set which changes the Fire Attack to Fire Blast (or even Flamethrower) and uses 252 HP/2xx SpA Modest
-The Choice Scarf Set (typical in Gen IV)
-The Choice Specs set
-TormenTran
-Life Orb/Expert Belt Heatran
-Trapper with Magma Storm
-Assault Vest Set(it's viable if you are wondering)
-Double Status Heatran
-Physically Defensive
I fail to see why Wobbuffet isn't even on this list. That thing has net me a KO every single game I've played with it, often a counter to one of my other Pokemon I need removed. It's amazing, still, and can destroy anything setting up on it. Only problem, is that the most powerful threats like Pinsir and Aegislash always defeat it, but it can be extremely helpful to destroy certain counters.
Yeah, it takes it once and then it can't set hazards, spin, or do anything again. Because it has no recovery.
There are enough things donphan can force out and then spin on the switch. And its pretty one sided to assume that donphan always takes 40% dmg despite his bulk on switch while the frail excadrill always comes in unharmed. Are u playing somewhere in the 1000 where u can always switch in ur airballoon exca into earthquake cuz ur opponents dont know the word prediction?
For your information I'm 1658 (so close to reqs >_<) so I, to a degree, know what I'm talking about.
I never said that excadrill comes in unharmed, I said that his actual offensive presence (which donphan lacks) can force switches, and can thus rapid spin on the switch.
Donphan's lack of offensive presence and lack of recovery forces it down to 1-2 rapid spins at best per game. When you're not invested at all in attack, there isn't a lot that you can force out. For one, practically any special attacker stays in and just nukes you so you can't do anything for the rest of the match.
And nothing of that matters at all as stated a thousand times before.
that would mean we have to throw skarm and hippowdon out of OU cuz they dont have special bulk as well. Donphan has enough bulk to take one or even 2 hits of some of the most dangerous sweepers around and he can kill/force alot of them out. How blind can someone be not to see that?
No it doesn't. Those guys, unlike donphan, actually have recovery, so they can take weak scalds or seismic tosses and not really care. Donphan, on the other hand, doesn't have reliable recovery at all.
Secondly, yes, donphan is quite bulky, but that's assuming FULL bulk, and no offenses. This means that you have no offensive presence whatsoever.
Now, let's take a look at "some of the most dangerous sweepers around" that "he can kill/force alot ... out," shall we?
This assumes that donphan is 252hp/252def w/ impish nature and the moves eq/sr/rapid spin/ice shard
That's what you should be running if you want to run him anyway.
Lucario: cannot switch into special variant (most common one)
Excadrill: has to break balloon first, takes 30%~ min from eq, meaning you can't do much more after you've got rid of him.
Aegislash: takes a shit ton from shadow ball
Bisharp: Sacrifices only source of recovery and loses at 70%~
Mega Mawile: Loses with just 10% prior damage, cannot take two play roughs.
Mega Charizard-X: Loses with just 10% prior damage to flare blitz,
Tyranitar: Watch out for ice beam but otherwise donphan wins.
Heatran: If sturdy is broken, heatran beats him with a balloon. Otherwise donphan wins but is crippled from damage.
Now I was nice and started off with the things donphan could threaten out with eq. Let's take a look at what he can't do anything about:
Conkeldurr: Cannot damage enough, conk just keeps drain punching and wins.
Azumarill: Takes crippling damage from waterfall
Crawdaunt: See Azumarill
Breloom: Bullet seed, ice shard doesn't do shit
Dragonite: Can get its weakness policy activated and proceed to kill.
Garchomp: Doesn't even get 2hko'd by ice shard LOL
Genesect: Cripples you with ice beam or u-turn out to the millions of things that can take your hits.
Goodra: dragon pulse is a 2hko and your outsped, ice shard does a clean 23% LOL
Greninja: You only 73% max to THIS frail piece of shit LOL
Gyarados: Sets up ALL OVER you
Landorus-T: Knocks off your recovery, u-turn out for momentum, takes 31.4% from ice shard LOL
Latios: Still only does 32% LOL
Mamoswine: Icicle crash is a 2hko, donphan's eq isn't. Step aside and let a real ice sharder do the work.
Pinsir: Ice shard does 25% LOL he sets up ALL OVER you.
Scizor: U-turn does solid damage, he can eat up any earthquake you have. Especially mega.
Talonflame: Unless you're carrying stone edge (you don't have room for it) this guy sets up in your face too LOL
Thundurus: Ice shard does 36% max LOL and hp ice 2hkos even without life orb LOL
Volcarona: Eq does less that 50% to bulkyrona, which is the one people should be using, so even volcarona, with 85/65 defenses, can set up on donphan. LOL
Kyurem-B: Ice beam can almost OHKO and eq does 38% max LOL.
For reference:
"Donphan has enough bulk to take one or even 2 hits of some of the most dangerous sweepers around and he can kill/force alot of them out."
Think I'm blind? Think again
with only 30% prior dmg... are even reading the crap ur writing here? The big difference is that against skarm and the others Bisharp gets free +2 and they cant do anything against him exept phazing him out. And id realy like to see some bisharp switching in on donphan.
If you even use donphan, you must know how mindblowingly easy it is to wear him down to that range atleast. And a smart skarmory user wouldn't defog when bisharp is still there. That's just common sense >_>
Donphan has 3 weaknesses of which only 2 are common. Excadrill has 4 extremly common weaknesses and no bulk what so ever. One correct prediction from ur opponent and ur spinner is gone.
Donphan's weaknesses: water, grass, ice. Water and ice are extremely common. Only 2, but remember, you have zero special bulk and are supposed to be a "bulky" spinner.
Excadrill's Weakness: water, fire, fighting, ground. All are common.
However, you forgot another important aspect of pokemon's type: the resistances.
Let's take a look at donphan's resistances, and then excadrill's
Donphan: Rock, poison, with immunity to electric. Quite a useful set of resistances you got there >_>
Excadrill: Normal, flying, pyschic, bug, rock, steel, fairy, dragon, with immunities to electric and poison. That's impressive.
Excadrill, while he has sub-par bulk, can use his resistances to his advantage to easily switch into several pokemon (like latias) and force them out with a powerful earthquake, not donphan's weak shit.
I know u like stating that but it doesnt get true by repeating the same bullshit all the time. Donphan doesnt have the offensive power of excadrill but he is more than strong enough to prevent most sweepers from setting up on him. SD Lucario, Talonflame, Pinsir, Dragonite, Garchomp, Charizard X etc not one of them can safely setup on donphan without knowing his full set.
These guys can't "safely" set up on uwown depending on its hidden power either.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Unown Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 194-230 (69 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Unown Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 396-468 (132.8 - 157%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Unown Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 320-380 (117.6 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Unown Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Unown Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 336-396 (93.8 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Unown Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 168-198 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"Not one of them can technically setup on donphan unown without knowing his full set."
#newmeta
Do this thread a favour and find some arguments that actually make sense before trying to participate in a discussion. That post is so full of arrogance and bullshit it hurts my eyes.
most of your crappy arguments were ad hominem anyways, so please, I give you full permission to act like a bitch to me when you're actually arguing something right. For now, you should stay quiet.
Hopefully that ends this terrible donphan discussion. Onto the next one
Sigh. I specifically referred readers to the Crawdaunt thread for this, where Alexwolf and others argued at length to demonstrate that Crawdaunt is not outclassed by Azumarill. Basically Azumarill is capable of being that offensive pivot like you say because of its defensive capabilities, but Crawdaunt is a stronger offensive presence (and not insignificantly so). The two are played differently and have significantly different capabilities. Azumarill may be better overall, but it does not outclass Crawdaunt.
I personally know that crawdaunt threatens different things than azumarill does, i've used him on a rain team with great success. I'm very interested how you can argue to me that crawdaunt isn't outclassed by azumarill. By all means, please show me it.
The argument for M-Abomasnow is weaker than Crawdaunt's (possibly since I've used it less and am therefore a bit less confident in its abilities) but the issues you highlight seem overstated. The three switch ins you mentioned are as good as they get for Abomasnow (you'd have to tell me about the "many possible" other ones, because when I think about it and look through the list I'm not seeing them) and even they cannot switch in more than twice (Heatran can't switch in at all with correct prediction, therefore it's not strictly a switch in at all in this context). If that's the best the tier can do to defend itself I think my statement that he is "virtually impossible" to switch into safely is vindicated. Genesect also makes just about everything lose momentum. It's why he's being suspected.
No no, but genesect can also switch in on almost anything you can do as well! and THEN u-turn out and gain momentum and blah blah blah.
Those three switch-ins that I mentioned are pretty solid and common switch-ins, and that's not including the defensive behemoths of the tier.
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 170-204 (46.7 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
That's not even a 2hko, and with no sp. def investment either! Sludge bomb meanwhile is a clean 2hko.
And worst case scenario, you can just sack something to this guy and bring in practically anything to revenge, gain momentum, or just straight up kill.
While abomasnow has good bulk (which is actually not that good uninvested), he can't even move before slow shit like conkeldurr, and can't function as a decent offensive pivot because of his terrible weaknesses and weakness to hazards, along with NO reliable recovery (synthesis is hampered by hail.)
Let's look at a common scenario though.
Let's take two common OU pokemon: AV conkeldurr, and specially defensive heatran.
You have mega obamasnow out against, oh I don't know, a rotom-w (that burns you) a lando-t (that can stone edge) an azumarill (that dies to super power) a mandibuzz (you risk losing momentum with u-turn and take 43% min from foul play) a thundurus (that can focus blast) a trevenant (that burns you) a clefable (that might carry flamethrower) a bisharp (iron head) a dragonite (that fire punches you)...
err...
gdi some pokemon out there that somehow can't touch abomasnow that you're in against. The opponent has a heatran and a conkeldurr. That conk is probably AV. So will you wood hammer to hit the conk or eq to hit the heatran? Depending on which you choose, you are going to do pitiful damage, be forced out, and maybe even take rocks damage as you come back in. You can't always play this gigantic prediction game, hoping that you win.
As for the threatening moves you listed: Brave Bird is a Talonflame threat pretty much exclusively, and yes Talonflame revenges. But it can't switch in (252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 141-166 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO). Talonflame revenges a lot. That's not really a con.
Mach punch and Bullet punch are pretty big issues to anything that is weak to them.
Abomasnow is so slow that priority is only something to consider when you are trying to pick something off with Ice Shard. And they are so weak that they can't do too much anyway. Here's the scariest Mach Punch: 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Mega Abomasnow: 86-104 (43.6 - 52.7%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO.
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 120-141 (34.8 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
not too bad, considering you're gaining free momentum.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Obamasnow fits this description pretty well, but I really don't think he has a place among pokemon like zapdos and ferrothorn. B- for abomasnow, and that's only because I'm so fond of him.
Did u read the post i was replying to? Do it and u know why i respond like that. I show the ppl the respect they deserve and after a post like that srn didnt deserve anything else.
Id realy like to have a mature and reasonable discussion about this topic but that seems to be impossible with ppl like srn9130 around who think they can replace arguments with arrogance saying that everybody who uses donphan is a noob. Not to mention all the "omg donphan is crap blacklist that thing already" ppl bumping in all the time. Most of the donphan haters here dont even try to make arguments and the rest always recycles the same statements that are simply wrong as stated so many times. Like for example "Donphan is crap because he is outclassed by excadrill" ignoring that they fill completly different roles or the "he cant hurt rotom-w" argument, like he needs to as a spinner.
Regarding ur arguments about donphan i realy dont feel like replying to that anymore. Everythings already said more than once either here or in the donphan thread, i suggest u read through it. Also since donphan doesnt get an analysis anymore the whole thing is off the table anyway.
When did I ever say everybody who uses donphan is a noob? I said it makes teambuilding easier and thus makes it slightly more popular than it should be, in no way does that suggest I'm calling out and shitting on everybody who uses him. Stop making false accusations based on your own assumptions, it's just plain rude.
Exist a way with Assault Vest to make Donphan have 300 Base Attack, 300 Base Defense and 300 (with AV) Base Special Defense. And has the movepool to use that set (with it's compatible with Rapid Spin)
Excadrill can use an Assault Vest set but has one big problem: Drops the Balloon (to take EQ) or an offensive team.
Maybe the set that Donphan n fits better in Ou its this set:
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Careful Nature Ability: Sturdy
EV: 252 HP 136 Atk 96 Def 24 SpD
Stats: 384 HP 310 Atk, 300 Def 140 SpA 178 SpD 136 Spe
-Earthquake
-Knock Off
-Ice Shard/Stone Edge
-Rapid Spin
Than with this
Donphan 2 Leftovers
Impish nature Sturdy Ability
EV: 252 HP 252 Def 4 SpD
Stats: 384 HP 276 Atk, 372 Def 140 Spa 157 SpD 136 Spe
-Earthquake
-Ice Shard
-Rapid Spin
-Roar/Stealth Rock
The first set is better in the OU metagame by having an offensive presence, and having more acceptable Special bulk which gives more opportunities of spinning.
Also, this is a C+ rank pokemon at best. It clearly hasn't the qualities of a Pokemon in A Rank or even many B rank pokemon.
And I explained before why Donpahn has OU usage.
And about Defog (which removes YOUR hazards):
Defog + Stealth Rock in a team are usable, specially to deal with some top threats, but requires some skill in using it. And this means that the SR setter has to be bulky (in other words, not a Deoxys-S, Aerodactyl and co.).
Defog + (Toxic) Spikes and Defog + Sticky Web is silly. Don't even try to use a suicide lead with Sticky Web 8there's no alternative) or a (Toxic) Spiker only by get nullified by Defog and repeat all the process again.
That's not a problem at all because you shouldn't be relying on Assault Vest Excadrill to spin for an offensive team. There are way better options for that, including Lati@s, offensive Excadrill, and (Mega) Scizor.
Donphan is honestly so utterly irrelevant to OU outside of the lower rungs of the ladder. As an example, in the 40 XY OU matches that have taken place so far in SPL, there has been no Donphan representation. Meanwhile, in the first three weeks of SPL, we've seen Excadrill 6 times, Latias 14 times, Zapdos 5 times, Skarmory 8 times, Mandibuzz 5 times, and Scizor 3 times. Keep in mind this is without even counting the week four statistics because I'm too lazy to check for all of those Pokemon. Weezing has been used more than Donphan. Basically what I'm getting at is that there's such a wide variety of (better) hazard removers that it's really difficult to justify running Donphan. On top of that, you can't even think about running Landorus-T or Gliscor or Hippowdon if you're running Donphan, which means you're giving up that potential teamslot that could be occupied by a better bulky Ground-type.
I fail to see why Wobbuffet isn't even on this list. That thing has net me a KO every single game I've played with it, often a counter to one of my other Pokemon I need removed. It's amazing, still, and can destroy anything setting up on it. Only problem, is that the most powerful threats like Pinsir and Aegislash always defeat it, but it can be extremely helpful to destroy certain counters.
I think that many pokemon are going to be rejected the moment the pokemon is worse than another even if it's only partially overshadowed by some ways. Donphan(and it's not the only case) has a low OU position for a reason, it probably be rejected because if not, some pokemon needs 7+ viable analysis ( Heatran, Garchomp (adding Mega), Scizor, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Gengar, Togekiss, Gyarados, Latios, Clefable, Starmie and Salamence as far as I remember) and the OU staff don't want to have a pokedex full of D and C pokemon.
I nominate Wobbuffet for B-. This gen, practically nothing has changed for Wobbuffet since it is still working with the same 8 moves. Wobbuffet's function is still to use Counter to set up the MirrorCoat. Volt-Switch and U-Turn are still the only reliable ways to keep from getting trapped by it. The biggest competition it faces now is the emergence of Aegislash, which completely walls it.
I nominate Wobbuffet for B-. This gen, practically nothing has changed for Wobbuffet since it is still working with the same 8 moves. Wobbuffet's function is still to use Counter to set up the MirrorCoat. Volt-Switch and U-Turn are still the only reliable ways to keep from getting trapped by it. The biggest competition it faces now is the emergence of Aegislash, which completely walls it.
I'd like to add to this. Wobbuffet, while getting more counters, also has more threats it can reliably handle, such as Goodra, Assault Vest users, Azumarill, Talonflame, and others. It can also reliably neuter set-up users such as DD Gyarados, DD Charizard X, and Calm Mind Clefable, allowing them to be destroyed by their appropriate counters or set up on themselves.
However, Wobbuffet still gets stopped cold by Taunt users, especially the new Klefki. With the introduction of MegaEvos as well, Wobbuffet cannot stop them from just powering through Wobbu, especially Scizor and Pinsir, with the former having super effective U-turn and the latter dealing 70%+ on specially defensive sets.
I'd like to add to this. Wobbuffet, while getting more counters, also has more threats it can reliably handle, such as Goodra, Assault Vest users, Azumarill, Talonflame, and others. It can also reliably neuter set-up users such as DD Gyarados, DD Charizard X, and Calm Mind Clefable, allowing them to be destroyed by their appropriate counters or set up on themselves.
However, Wobbuffet still gets stopped cold by Taunt users, especially the new Klefki. With the introduction of MegaEvos as well, Wobbuffet cannot stop them from just powering through Wobbu, especially Scizor and Pinsir, with the former having super effective U-turn and the latter dealing 70%+ on specially defensive sets.
Klefki does not have access to taunt.
(Thank god >_>)
Also, if you can take a u-turn and use counter on the same turn, you still hit the switch-in, so pivoting isn't completely fool proof. The switch-in would have to take a mirror coat from volt switch as well if that happens.
I'm going off what we all agreed on with Mega Gengar. Wobbuffet has no counters under the Shadow Tag Technicality. There are definitely new ways to handle Wubby and ghosts CAN switch out, but if Wobbuffet has trapped something, you might as well declare it dead. Wobbuffet's main goal is to come in on threats it knows it can handle. Threats with U-Turn/Volt Switch and Ghosts are just about the only things that can escape...it might sound like a lot, but after some weeding out, it's not. Speaking of U-Turn, that's actually VERY laughable because you're calling one of your Pokemon DEAD unless you switch a Ghost-Type in thanks to Counter. Switching in is...yeah, it's difficult, but I prefer Wobbuffet as a Revenge Switch, which guarantees its safety from the first attack (for the most part...those Super-Effective hits take its toll) and allows action to be done. Is Wobbuffet the "be all end all" of Trappers? Your only other legal Shadow Tag Pokemon is Gothitelle, so...yeah. I've always used Wobbuffet to some success. Also...
I'm going off what we all agreed on with Mega Gengar. Wobbuffet has no counters under the Shadow Tag Technicality. There are definitely new ways to handle Wubby and ghosts CAN switch out, but if Wobbuffet has trapped something, you might as well declare it dead. Wobbuffet's main goal is to come in on threats it knows it can handle. Threats without U-Turn/Volt Switch and Ghosts are just about the only things that can escape...it might sound like a lot, but after some weeding out, it's not. Speaking of U-Turn, that's actually VERY laughable because you're calling one of your Pokemon DEAD unless you switch a Ghost-Type in thanks to Counter. Switching in is...yeah, it's difficult, but I prefer Wobbuffet as a Revenge Switch, which guarantees its safety from the first attack (for the most part...those Super-Effective hits take its toll) and allows action to be done. Is Wobbuffet the "be all end all" of Trappers? Your only other legal Shadow Tag Pokemon is Gothitelle, so...yeah. I've always used Wobbuffet to some success. Also...
I brought it up...I want to say twice MUCH earlier on. I'd love to focus on Wobbuffet instead of Elephant of Lame.
Also, another Pokemon I'm interested in is moltres. Isn't is outclassed by Charizard offensively and Zapdos defensively? I'm inexperienced in Zapdos moltres use so info would be helpful
Because they're good players. Defog has downsides that rapid spin does not. The fact that it gets rid of the hazards you took the time to put up is a problem unless your defogger is skarmory. Because if it isn't, you're going to have to waste an extra turn just to switch to your hazard setter so you can do it again. The team I've been running lately has a defogger. And even then, I rarely have to use defog. I just pile up the offensive pressure until my opponent is forced to use their own defogger, clearing not just my stealth rock, but also their own. Since I can force my opponent to do what I want, I can use the extra turn to do something meaningful. My opponent has given me two free turns now (the turn they spent using defog and the turn they spent putting up hazards to begin with) while I've only given them one. I've had it happen to me, causing me to take gambles with the likes of volcorona and charizard, and I've done it to people countless times, allowing my mega pinsir or talonflame to stick around for a lot longer than they should have.
That's just the worst part about defog. Being blocked by taunt and having to dance around bisharp isn't much fun either. Though you can easily ignore the latter if you run a better defogger than lati@s (latios is a really terrible defoggers whereas latias is good but only really shines on certain kinds of teams as part of a core).
Smash Bros was right about the teams that run defog over rapid spin. We all use it because we absolutely need to get rid of SR on our side of the field or else our teams start to fall apart at the seams. But if you ever see people using rapid spin instead, you have your reason. Rapid spin's only problem is its distribution. If something ridiculous like tyranitar had rapid spin, I would NEVER run defog on any kind of team. Of course, defog is a fine option if you arent running any hazards yourself. Rapid spin is just better if you are.
So...no arguments about kicking forretress off the list?
I'm going off what we all agreed on with Mega Gengar. Wobbuffet has no counters under the Shadow Tag Technicality. There are definitely new ways to handle Wubby and ghosts CAN switch out, but if Wobbuffet has trapped something, you might as well declare it dead. Wobbuffet's main goal is to come in on threats it knows it can handle. Threats without U-Turn/Volt Switch and Ghosts are just about the only things that can escape...it might sound like a lot, but after some weeding out, it's not. Speaking of U-Turn, that's actually VERY laughable because you're calling one of your Pokemon DEAD unless you switch a Ghost-Type in thanks to Counter. Switching in is...yeah, it's difficult, but I prefer Wobbuffet as a Revenge Switch, which guarantees its safety from the first attack (for the most part...those Super-Effective hits take its toll) and allows action to be done. Is Wobbuffet the "be all end all" of Trappers? Your only other legal Shadow Tag Pokemon is Gothitelle, so...yeah. I've always used Wobbuffet to some success. Also...
That's why I was mentioning that Aegislash is Wobbufret's wall; it's immune to Counter and Resists Mirrorcoat.
But yeah the more,I think of it, the A- Rank may be the most suitable. Wobuffett still only has one function, a function that can still lead to an entire team being swept if they're unable to break the Arena Trap. I didn't mention this in my first post, but Greninja is actually a hard counter to it. It's completely immune to Mirrorcoat, and using encore on it is meaningless.
That's why I was mentioning that Aegislash is Wobbufret's wall; it's immune to Counter and Resists Mirrorcoat.
But yeah the more,I think of it, the A- Rank may be the most suitable. Wobuffett still only has one function, a function that can still lead to an entire team being swept if they're unable to break the Arena Trap. I didn't mention this in my first post, but Greninja is actually a hard counter to it. It's completely immune to Mirrorcoat, and using encore on it is meaningless.
Resisting mirror coat is irrelevant; it deals twice the HP Wobb lost regardless of type effectiveness. What's more relevant is this:
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Wobbuffet: 640-756 (109.5 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If it's a physically defensive Wobbuffet, it straight up dies.
Wobbuffet is NEVER going to sweep entire teams because its only means of dealing damage relies on losing huge amounts of its health. Don't sweep with wobb; use it to eliminate specific threats to your team.
Finally, as ShadowMarioGalaxy64 said, Greninja cannot counter Wobbuffet because it can't switch in. Literally NOTHING can truly counter Wobbuffet.
rapid spin is an attack, it can't be taunted, but it's a free switch in for ghost pokemon, has pretty poor distribution
defog removes hazards on the opponents side as well and can be taunted, but it also does remove screens. on the downside, defiant pokemon instill the wrath of arceus on your ass if you mindlessly use defog, if you have wings, you can learn this move
it all comes down to team make out, but defog is a huge buff to stall teams as now they don't aren't forced to use tentacruel, forretress, or (lulz) donphan to remove hazards and they can now use anything that flies like mandibuzz, latias, and skarmory who on top of defog also have access to a recovery move
it depends on your team and what you need, excadrill is still really good, tentacruel is still really good, but now they have to compete with latias, skarmory, mandibuzz, etc for a hazard removal spot, but this is good, it gives everyone a buttload of more options
Wait, when the hell did Trevenant gt moved from B to C? I've always has immense success with it ans a burn spreader, spinblocker, and stalled, amd I don't see why it dropped, though I'm sure there's some reason I must be overlooking.
Defog has downsides that rapid spin does not. The fact that it gets rid of the hazards you took the time to put up is a problem unless your defogger is skarmory.
Or Empoleon, which is one of the reasons why it's an underrated mon. Or Aerodactyl and non-Poison Heal Gliscor (kinda dubious users, but they do exist). Or Mew...
...and speaking of Mew, talk about a Pokemon that can do it all, yet hasn't even been mentioned yet afaik. Obviously Defog + SR support on something with reliable recovery is very useful, but Mew can take on nearly any other role as well. Pure Psychic typing is more of a pain than ever unfortunately, and it faces heavy competition for most of its roles (esp. from Deo). Still, it can provide variety and support like nothing else can. Mew is probably B(-) material.
That's why I was mentioning that Aegislash is Wobbufret's wall; it's immune to Counter and Resists Mirrorcoat.
But yeah the more,I think of it, the A- Rank may be the most suitable. Wobuffett still only has one function, a function that can still lead to an entire team being swept if they're unable to break the Arena Trap. I didn't mention this in my first post, but Greninja is actually a hard counter to it. It's completely immune to Mirrorcoat, and using encore on it is meaningless.
It doesn't matter if Aegislash "resists" Mirror Coat (you do not resist a fixed damage attack), any Shadow Ball that doesn't KO Wobb would result in a Mirror Coat OHKO. Also Greninja would need Dark Pulse (which not all Greninja have) to retain Mirror Coat immunity, otherwise Protean would expose it anyway; a better response would be Hydreigon. You can't "counter" Wobbufet in the first place anyhow unless they stupidly switch Wobb in on a Ghost.
Wobb only has one job: to selectively KO a problematic threat with CounterCoat / Destiny Bond, or help exploit a weak link with Encore. So you've got a physical Ghost attacker / special Dark attacker ready to face Wobb? It can Encore you and switch to something like Bisharp or god forbid Justified Lucario and proceed to wipe the floor with you. On one hand, it does the job of preparing optimal conditions for its 'setup sweeper' teammates well enough; the problem is that it can usually only do it once, since this Gen's power creep has really caught up to it. Wobb's lack of recovery and sluggish speed means excessive damage will render it useless at that point, so you only have one chance to get it right. This isn't like Dual Screen users, who can set up the screens a second time if they managed to get away with some health to spare, but a 30% or even 40% Wobb is practically useless. It also cannot do very much to stall: all it can do is Encore shit or set up Safeguard (this means forgoing Destiny Bond, and who the hell does that!?), then switch out, but stall is typically equipped to handle that kind of shit anyway.
On that note, I also do not get why Trevenant is now below Gourgeist. True, Gourgeist spinblocks against Excadrill better, but Trevenant deals with other spinners much better due to its recovery. That recovery in general is also what lets it wall threats and spread burns better. Trevenant is also more versatile than Gourgeist in general, sporting moves like Earthquake and can perform SubSeed sets that can do shit aside from just sitting there (Will-O-Wisp, mainly). I never really saw Gourgeist as superior to Trevenant, they should really be at least the same rank.
