I don't see why this matters. I think it would be more helpful to new players to show them that playing with the base forms can be a bad idea by ranking them lower. Mega's play completely differently from their base form and should be ranked on their own merit (though some are just as good such as tyranitar and mega tyranitar). I personally think that both Charzard forms deserve to stay S though, partially because of their unpredictability.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Yeah, I should've read more. That actually seems like a decent system.
IMO, even the one dimensional Megas should be ranked with their base form.
For example: Pinsir is S rank, because the Pokemon Pinsir has the potential to sweep your team by Mega Evolving into Mega Pinsir. Venausaur is S rank because the Pokémon Venasaur has the potential to mega evolve into a tank that walls three quarters of the meta-game.
SergantGold has it right, potential mega forms should be listed as sprites, but even MEGA ONLY being a non-necessity. I understand you might not want to confuse newer players into thinking Charizard is good without Mega Evolving, but Mega Charizard is still Charizard.
Essentially I am saying that we shouldn't be treating Megas as anything but a potential set of the base Pokemon.
For example: Pinsir is S rank, because the Pokemon Pinsir has the potential to sweep your team by Mega Evolving into Mega Pinsir. Venausaur is S rank because the Pokémon Venasaur has the potential to mega evolve into a tank that walls three quarters of the meta-game.
SergantGold has it right, potential mega forms should be listed as sprites, but even MEGA ONLY being a non-necessity. I understand you might not want to confuse newer players into thinking Charizard is good without Mega Evolving, but Mega Charizard is still Charizard.
Essentially I am saying that we shouldn't be treating Megas as anything but a potential set of the base Pokemon.
I agree with Hibiki. The XY Uber Viablility Ranking Thread is doing the same after all.
Why is this exactly a mistake?
Again, our tier system separates Therians but not Megas. The fact that they start in their base form is extremely important, and affects the playstyle of so many of them.
Some, like Pinsir and Charizard X, change their type upon Mega Evolving, so it affects their switch-ins and vulnerability to SR. Charizard in particular can disguise its form by holding off on powering up. Pinsir and Mawile have pre-evolution abilities they can take advantage of, Garchomp can hold off on Mega Evolving to take advantage of its higher untransformed Speed, Banette is held back by its basic form's lack of Prankster... The list goes on and on. The base form is just too important a part of the Mega to ignore.
They really aren't different sets, they actually have completely different typings, stats and abilities as well. Not to mention that Charizard without a Mega Stone isn't viable in OU meaning it has to be using one of the two Mega Stones. Let's just keep them separate the way it is now.
I didn't see the point of setting apart base pokemon and their mega forms when I first noticed the change in this thread.
But it's actually relevant if we consider that the viability of megas is actually compared to the viability of other megas and the viability of their base form. If you want to use Mega Scizor as a defensive pokemon, you have to weight it against just running regular Scizor and adding a different mega to your team.
In my opinion both forms must be listed, so it's clear which base forms are viable and which ones aren't.
But it's actually relevant if we consider that the viability of megas is actually compared to the viability of other megas and the viability of their base form. If you want to use Mega Scizor as a defensive pokemon, you have to weight it against just running regular Scizor and adding a different mega to your team.
In my opinion both forms must be listed, so it's clear which base forms are viable and which ones aren't.
A similar thing could be said about Meloetta-P, however we don't rank her as Meloetta-P, but as Meloetta, because she starts the battle as Meloetta. Same with either Megazard, since both starts the battle as regular Charizard. If we rank Charizard as a whole, i think we should do this for every megaevolving Pokémon, although it really matters only for Charizard, Garchomp(plays really different with or without Megastone) and Gyarados(can play some matches where it doesn't even need to megaevolve, depsite holding the stone).
When are people going to finally understand that Charizard X/Y are being grouped together as one because that's what makes Mega Charizard so threatening; the fact you do not know which mega it will be evolving into. Can people stop suggesting that one Mega Charizard drop, while the other stays? That logic just does not make sense at all to me, as, like I mentioned, the thing that makes it so threatening is the unknown.
Also, I actually like the current system we use, and I do not see a reason to change it.
Also, I actually like the current system we use, and I do not see a reason to change it.
Can't we just do what 5th Ubers did by adding a tiny paragraph explaining why the pokemon is ranked like it is in a hider? If we do not do that, let's just use the current system. I'm all for megas and baseforms being ranked together, but I really do not care if they're ranked separately either.
Beyond that, I think we all should get back on track. I'd like to support the Thundurus-I for S rank that was proposed several pages back. After having used him quite a bit lately, I've come to realize that he's not only been the glue of my team but also my one main win condition. Prankster+Twave is so much better than it sounds, as you can completely cripple an opposing RKiller or sweeper, making them much more easy to handle. His mix options are up there as well, as uninvested Superpower OHKOs the AV Excadrill check, gets reliably rid of TTar, breaks the blobs... it does so much with a simple moveset. It also has the option of going full physical with defiant or prankster (depending on whether you want twave or bulk up sweeping) with Wild Charge, Knock Off and Superpower which is a great lure. The only drawback I find in him is his frailty and SR weakness, but I'll take that weakness anyday over the option of letting Deosharp teams destroy me. He is a great offensive check to many titans, including Pinsir, Charizard Y, Talonflame. I also enjoy taunting Aegislashes and then switch into Pursuit Bisharp afterwards to get a free kill.
I don't see why he isn't S rank yet.
Beyond that, I think we all should get back on track. I'd like to support the Thundurus-I for S rank that was proposed several pages back. After having used him quite a bit lately, I've come to realize that he's not only been the glue of my team but also my one main win condition. Prankster+Twave is so much better than it sounds, as you can completely cripple an opposing RKiller or sweeper, making them much more easy to handle. His mix options are up there as well, as uninvested Superpower OHKOs the AV Excadrill check, gets reliably rid of TTar, breaks the blobs... it does so much with a simple moveset. It also has the option of going full physical with defiant or prankster (depending on whether you want twave or bulk up sweeping) with Wild Charge, Knock Off and Superpower which is a great lure. The only drawback I find in him is his frailty and SR weakness, but I'll take that weakness anyday over the option of letting Deosharp teams destroy me. He is a great offensive check to many titans, including Pinsir, Charizard Y, Talonflame. I also enjoy taunting Aegislashes and then switch into Pursuit Bisharp afterwards to get a free kill.
I don't see why he isn't S rank yet.
Enough talk about our system of separating MEvos. The Uber viability ranking thread can do whatever they want, this is not an argument for this list to do the same. We know the reasons to rank the MEvos seperataly or treat them as the same Pokemon, so if we feel that there is a need to change the system, we will do it. Posts talking about how we should change this system in this thread will get deleted from now on. If you want to present a good reason as to why we should change the system that hasn't been mentioned before, feel free to PM any of the OU mods.
On to the the Pokemon in S and A+ ranks now.
Drop Mega Venusaur to A+
The metagame has reached to a point where it's overprepared for Mega Venusaur, and this means that Mega Venusaur can't wall the majority of the metagame anymore. Mega Venusaur can't wall a single Pokemon from S rank, and the majority of A+ and A rank Pokemon can get past it too. Out of A+ and A rank, Mega Venusaur is a good answer to: Manaphy (without Psychic), Rotom-W, Thundurus, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados (without Ice Fang), Keldeo, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, and that's it. Yeah it can check some more Pokemon in those ranks depending on their movesets (Extrasensory-less Greninja, AV Excadrill, Terrakion without LO or CB), but those Pokemon can at worst 3HKO Mega Venusaur while outspeeding it, or have other means of wearing Mega Venusaur down (U-turn on Greninja). Not only this, but if you are using Mega Venusaur as your answer to Rotom-W, which you most likely will be as Rotom-W is not an easy Pokemon to shut down, chances are that Mega Venusaur will get burned very early in the game. Combine this with potential SR damage, and Mega Venusaur is taking 25% damage minimum every time it switches in, without accounting for Volt Switches from Rotom-W or U-turns from Greninja. Furthermore, Mega Venusaur has pathetic longevity against sand teams, which are better than ever right now, as one of their biggest problems is out of OU (Mega Lucario). For example, Choice Specs Keldeo on a sand team dgaf about Mega Venusaur, as all it has to do is hit it once with Hydro Pump and then it can 2HKO it later, as Mega Venusaur will manage to heal 19% at best with Synthesis after sandstorm damage as you go to a Pokemon that forces it out. This is a huge problem with Mega Venusaur and can't be understated. If you have some Pokemon that are completely shut down by Mega Venusaur in your team (and there are not so many of them out of S and A ranks, aka the best Pokemon in OU), it is not hard at all to wear down Mega Venusaur to the point where it can't stop those Pokemon. You can use WoW Rotom-W with good SR support, a Volt-turn core with SR support, a sand team, a lure (such as Psychic Manaphy or Nasty Plot Hidden Power Flying Thundurus), or a rain team. Honestly, there are so many ways to get past Mega Venusaur, and you often don't even have to choose one of them as Mega Venusaur fails to wall more than 1-2 Pokemon against most teams. Without Mega Lucario terrorizing OU and Mega Venusaur being one of its most viable checks, Mega Venusaur has no reason to be in S rank.
Promote Rotom-W to S
This is going to be a tough one but let's give it a try. No, Rotom-W doesn't wall the majority of the metagame, and no Rotom-W is not hard to wear down and overwhelm. But Rotom-W is the single best Pokemon in OU when it comes to utility and support (together, not seperately). Remember how Genesect could get an advantageous match-up against most of the metagame and use this to its advantage to start generating momentum and give free switches? Rotom-W is the next best Pokemon at doing this, and while its ability to generate momentum is certainly not at the same level as Genesect's, it makes up for it with the amount of Pokemon it checks. When Rotom-W gets an adantageous match-up, it can either bring in of your Pokemon for free with Volt Switch as the opponent switches out, OHKO/2HKO the incoming Ground-type with Hydro Pump (except from Gastrodon), or cripple the opponent with WoW, which when coupled with future Volt Switch hits and SR, is a very effective way to wear down even the best checks to Rotom-W, such as Mega Venusaur, Latios, and Latias. So no matter what happens, Rotom-W will always be able to do something productive with the switches it forces, even if the opponent has hard counters to it. It will always be able to give immense support by providing free switches to your teammates while spamming a decently powered STAB move or punish the Ground-types that may want to block your Volt Switch. Furthermore, Rotom-W serves as a good check to a multitude of great and common Pokemon, such as Mega Pinsir, Heatran, Talonflame, Landorus, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Azumarill, Sand Rush Excadrill, Greninja, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Scizor, and Hippowdon, and wins 1 on 1 against even more Pokemon, giving it a plethora of chances to support its team, by either bringing in other Pokemon for free, or wearing down checks and counters of its teammates. How many times have you seen on an analysis the phrase ''Even though powerful, this Pokemon is frail, so Rotom-W is a great partner''? We may have become used to it and think it's not a big deal, but take a moment to think just how many frail but powerful Pokemon rely on Rotom-W's Volt Switch to switch in. Think about how much damage those Pokemon are able to do after Rotom-W brings them in for free. This, right there, is some top notch support, which when combined with the defensive utility that Rotom-W provides for a team, makes it worthy of the S rank status.
All the other Pokemon are fine where they are.
On to the the Pokemon in S and A+ ranks now.
Drop Mega Venusaur to A+
The metagame has reached to a point where it's overprepared for Mega Venusaur, and this means that Mega Venusaur can't wall the majority of the metagame anymore. Mega Venusaur can't wall a single Pokemon from S rank, and the majority of A+ and A rank Pokemon can get past it too. Out of A+ and A rank, Mega Venusaur is a good answer to: Manaphy (without Psychic), Rotom-W, Thundurus, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados (without Ice Fang), Keldeo, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, and that's it. Yeah it can check some more Pokemon in those ranks depending on their movesets (Extrasensory-less Greninja, AV Excadrill, Terrakion without LO or CB), but those Pokemon can at worst 3HKO Mega Venusaur while outspeeding it, or have other means of wearing Mega Venusaur down (U-turn on Greninja). Not only this, but if you are using Mega Venusaur as your answer to Rotom-W, which you most likely will be as Rotom-W is not an easy Pokemon to shut down, chances are that Mega Venusaur will get burned very early in the game. Combine this with potential SR damage, and Mega Venusaur is taking 25% damage minimum every time it switches in, without accounting for Volt Switches from Rotom-W or U-turns from Greninja. Furthermore, Mega Venusaur has pathetic longevity against sand teams, which are better than ever right now, as one of their biggest problems is out of OU (Mega Lucario). For example, Choice Specs Keldeo on a sand team dgaf about Mega Venusaur, as all it has to do is hit it once with Hydro Pump and then it can 2HKO it later, as Mega Venusaur will manage to heal 19% at best with Synthesis after sandstorm damage as you go to a Pokemon that forces it out. This is a huge problem with Mega Venusaur and can't be understated. If you have some Pokemon that are completely shut down by Mega Venusaur in your team (and there are not so many of them out of S and A ranks, aka the best Pokemon in OU), it is not hard at all to wear down Mega Venusaur to the point where it can't stop those Pokemon. You can use WoW Rotom-W with good SR support, a Volt-turn core with SR support, a sand team, a lure (such as Psychic Manaphy or Nasty Plot Hidden Power Flying Thundurus), or a rain team. Honestly, there are so many ways to get past Mega Venusaur, and you often don't even have to choose one of them as Mega Venusaur fails to wall more than 1-2 Pokemon against most teams. Without Mega Lucario terrorizing OU and Mega Venusaur being one of its most viable checks, Mega Venusaur has no reason to be in S rank.
Promote Rotom-W to S
This is going to be a tough one but let's give it a try. No, Rotom-W doesn't wall the majority of the metagame, and no Rotom-W is not hard to wear down and overwhelm. But Rotom-W is the single best Pokemon in OU when it comes to utility and support (together, not seperately). Remember how Genesect could get an advantageous match-up against most of the metagame and use this to its advantage to start generating momentum and give free switches? Rotom-W is the next best Pokemon at doing this, and while its ability to generate momentum is certainly not at the same level as Genesect's, it makes up for it with the amount of Pokemon it checks. When Rotom-W gets an adantageous match-up, it can either bring in of your Pokemon for free with Volt Switch as the opponent switches out, OHKO/2HKO the incoming Ground-type with Hydro Pump (except from Gastrodon), or cripple the opponent with WoW, which when coupled with future Volt Switch hits and SR, is a very effective way to wear down even the best checks to Rotom-W, such as Mega Venusaur, Latios, and Latias. So no matter what happens, Rotom-W will always be able to do something productive with the switches it forces, even if the opponent has hard counters to it. It will always be able to give immense support by providing free switches to your teammates while spamming a decently powered STAB move or punish the Ground-types that may want to block your Volt Switch. Furthermore, Rotom-W serves as a good check to a multitude of great and common Pokemon, such as Mega Pinsir, Heatran, Talonflame, Landorus, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Azumarill, Sand Rush Excadrill, Greninja, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Scizor, and Hippowdon, and wins 1 on 1 against even more Pokemon, giving it a plethora of chances to support its team, by either bringing in other Pokemon for free, or wearing down checks and counters of its teammates. How many times have you seen on an analysis the phrase ''Even though powerful, this Pokemon is frail, so Rotom-W is a great partner''? We may have become used to it and think it's not a big deal, but take a moment to think just how many frail but powerful Pokemon rely on Rotom-W's Volt Switch to switch in. Think about how much damage those Pokemon are able to do after Rotom-W brings them in for free. This, right there, is some top notch support, which when combined with the defensive utility that Rotom-W provides for a team, makes it worthy of the S rank status.
All the other Pokemon are fine where they are.
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Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
I prefer to think of the different Zard forms as items, rather than separate Pokemon, because that's exactly what they are. As many people have stated, Charizard is unlike any of these other Pokemon because it starts out in the same base form, and you can't know for certain which Megastone it's holding at Team Preview (unlike the genie forms, etc). It makes sense for them to have separate analyses since it would otherwise be a huge mess; however, because each form IS essentially a different "set" of the same Pokemon, they should be rated together here.
Anyway, I guess I'm pretty boring here, but after some more playtesting I'm overall quite happy with the S and A+ ranks as they are. The only Pokemon that might warrant discussion is Mega Venusaur, simply because the metagame has adapted to it. On top of losing out to obvious top threats like Pinsir and Talon, many attackers commonly run Psychic-type coverage now for Megasaur (in addition to Keldeo, Terrakion, AV Conk, and Tentacruel). That's plenty of reason. Here's a few of the most common...
Greninja (Extrasensory)
Manaphy, Lando-I, Celebi/Shaymin (Psychic)
Latias/Latios, Starmie (Psyshock)
Mega Medicham, Mew, Jirachi (Zen Headbutt)
As Chou stated a few pages back, it's getting harder and harder to switch Megasaur in because good players have adapted to it now. Obviously Megasaur is still a top wall, but is it still S-rank? It's right on the bubble, just like Rotom-W (he's even more effective now with the recent bans) and Thundy-I (a lot of good arguments for S-rank Thundy have already been given). In my book I would probably move these three. Megasaur -> A+, Rotom-W -> S, Thundy-I -> S.
Anyway, I guess I'm pretty boring here, but after some more playtesting I'm overall quite happy with the S and A+ ranks as they are. The only Pokemon that might warrant discussion is Mega Venusaur, simply because the metagame has adapted to it. On top of losing out to obvious top threats like Pinsir and Talon, many attackers commonly run Psychic-type coverage now for Megasaur (in addition to Keldeo, Terrakion, AV Conk, and Tentacruel). That's plenty of reason. Here's a few of the most common...
Greninja (Extrasensory)
Manaphy, Lando-I, Celebi/Shaymin (Psychic)
Latias/Latios, Starmie (Psyshock)
Mega Medicham, Mew, Jirachi (Zen Headbutt)
As Chou stated a few pages back, it's getting harder and harder to switch Megasaur in because good players have adapted to it now. Obviously Megasaur is still a top wall, but is it still S-rank? It's right on the bubble, just like Rotom-W (he's even more effective now with the recent bans) and Thundy-I (a lot of good arguments for S-rank Thundy have already been given). In my book I would probably move these three. Megasaur -> A+, Rotom-W -> S, Thundy-I -> S.
This Rotom-W discussion is never gonna end.... I'll say I humbly disagree for reasons I've stated previously (and I still don't think he is a good partner at all, might be my opinion on Volt-Turn strategies as a whole) and I abstain on Mega Venu as it can go either way I guess.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
I agree with everything in this post, so I second Mega Venusaur for A+ and Rotom-W and Thundurus-I for S rank.
I'm not entirely convinced about Talonflame belonging to A+ rank though. Its main selling point is priority Brave Bird and the metagame adapted to that a while ago. When you look past that its flaws (horrible bulk, mediocre attack, 4x SR weakness, crap coverage moves) stick out like a sore thumb and I find increasingly harder to justify its usage over Mega Pinsir or one of the Charizards now that Mega Lucario is gone. It's a nice pokemon for offensive teams not using them, but then again why shouldn't an offensive team use one of the three best offensive megas? It doesn't help that Talonflame shares a truly nasty SR weakness with both Pinsir and Charizard.
I think A rank is more appropriate for the bird.
To be honest, I don't think that Rotom-W deserves to be S-tier. S-tier is also used for suspect testing, so think about it this way: could you guys see Rotom-W being suspect tested or even banned to Ubers? I nominate Rotom-W to stay in A+ tier. Also, I nominate M-Venusaur to be demoted to A or A+ tier since it no longer walls the top threats in OU, is easily worn down, and the meta game has adapted to its presence.
The whole "suspects in S" is not a good argument. Deoxys-S was A+ for the majority of its test, and still is. IIRC, Tornadus-T wasn't S when it was banned last gen (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't see Aegislash going Uber anytime soon either. It says "IF there are suspects, they will come from this rank," not "everything in this rank will be suspected".
I disagree.
I feel like garchomp got better in gen 6 compared to gen 5 (when it didn't have SV).
Its 102 speed got almost as trollish as it was in gen 4 due to the lack of the musketeers, weather genies, and late@s.
It's incredibly versatile and can run offensive/defensive support sets, scarf set, and sweeper set(s).
And it's damn good at all of the aforementioned categories.
I am strictly talking about the regular garchomp as I do not particularly like mega garchomp as much (primarily due to the mega limits).
edit: I feel like garchomp has a decent chance to be go up to S tier.
The metagame adapted to priority Brave Bird how, exactly? Yes, Talonflame is easy to wall and stuff that effectively walls it like Rotom-W, Heatran, and Tyranitar have gotten used more, but those walls don't change the fact that Talonflame is the single biggest threat to almost any sweep. The number of offensive mons you can KO with a CB Brave Bird is incredible, allowing offensive teams to not have to worry as much about opposing sweepers and in some cases even forgo a scarfer. The Stealth Rock weakness is an issue, but given that this generation has been much more friendly to hazard removal, it's far from a crippling flaw. The strongest reliable priority user in OU definitely deserves its A+ ranking.
I think Thundurus-I is worthy of being S Rank. With Life Orb/Expert Belt, Thunder Wave + Thunderbolt and 2 more appropriate coverage moves (Focus Blast/Superpower/HP Ice/Grass Knot/U-Turn/Sludge Bomb/Dark Pulse/Knock Off), he puts a lot of pressure on the enemy team just by being alive with a healthy amount of HP. Ground-types need to be careful switching in since so many of his coverage moves are able to get 2HKOs or better on most of them. Anything else won't enjoy taking a STAB T-Bolt or a crippling T-Wave on a speedy Pokemon, to be set up on or cleaned up by an ally of Thundurus-I.
I'm personally running him with a mixed Charizard-Y (252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe, Hasty, Overheat/Solarbeam/Flare Blitz/Earthquake), and between the two I get so many opportunities to dent Pokemon in the early game to under 50%, to be cleaned up later by SD Lucario or Revenge Killer Deoxys-S.
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I think Venusaur-M being S Rank is too high, and he would fit better being A+ Rank. He gets roasted by the other Mega Pokemon in S Rank. Several of the Pokemon in A+ Rank also have moves/abilities that give him trouble (Psycho Boost, Teravolt Ice Beam, Tail Glow Psychic, Brave Bird). I understand that people are saying he can be S Ranked because he walls 75% of the metagame, but that's hard to stand by when the 25% contains many of the biggest threats in OU.
I've tried out Leech Seed wall Venusaur-M, but it didn't work out because it didn't fit my old team. A set with 252 Hp/4 Atk/252 SpA did some work with the surprise coverage (Synthesis + 3 attacks). But then I moved on to try other things because there are other options for a bulky mixed attacker without using up a Mega slot, like Substitute Kyurem-B or Aegislash or Assault Vest Tyranitar.
I'm personally running him with a mixed Charizard-Y (252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe, Hasty, Overheat/Solarbeam/Flare Blitz/Earthquake), and between the two I get so many opportunities to dent Pokemon in the early game to under 50%, to be cleaned up later by SD Lucario or Revenge Killer Deoxys-S.
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I think Venusaur-M being S Rank is too high, and he would fit better being A+ Rank. He gets roasted by the other Mega Pokemon in S Rank. Several of the Pokemon in A+ Rank also have moves/abilities that give him trouble (Psycho Boost, Teravolt Ice Beam, Tail Glow Psychic, Brave Bird). I understand that people are saying he can be S Ranked because he walls 75% of the metagame, but that's hard to stand by when the 25% contains many of the biggest threats in OU.
I've tried out Leech Seed wall Venusaur-M, but it didn't work out because it didn't fit my old team. A set with 252 Hp/4 Atk/252 SpA did some work with the surprise coverage (Synthesis + 3 attacks). But then I moved on to try other things because there are other options for a bulky mixed attacker without using up a Mega slot, like Substitute Kyurem-B or Aegislash or Assault Vest Tyranitar.
It cant wall them but depending on the moveset it can check some of them quite well. I am using the basic defensiv set with 252/84+/168 with leech seed, sludge bomb and HP fire and it beats Aegisslash all the time. Offensive Charizard X takes around 50% from it as well so it cant setup and it loses in a direct fight (dragon claw is to weak and flare blitz kills it with recoil giving venu the 2 hko. The only things he cant take on are Pinsir and Zard Y.
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