SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

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There's absolutely no reason to ban a strategy so incredibly flawed and luck based.

I use an entire team based around swagwavesubplay for reaping in rage quits but people who don't leave at the sight of the team can figure out how ineffective it is.

Taunt can ruin an entire team. Sound based moves and multihit moves along with infiltrator cant ruin the entire team.
Not to mention magic bounce and syncronise can destroy the entire team. Mental herb and lum berry can open up a free opportunity to kill.
The pokemon can snap out of confusion on the first time and sweep
The pokemon can have own tempo on pokemon even as abundant as smeargle.
Limber and electric types cant be paralyzed.
Did I mention that another prankster can tear them a new asshole?
Switching gets rid of confusion.
Any bulky pokemon with low attack can cause a pokemon to stall out and struggle.


Banning swagplay is like banning paraflinch, you know what? Lets ban paraflinch and focus energy! What about attract? Thats luck based too! Lets ban the whole lot!

Banning something luck based just because it annoys you is not the correct answer, its a legitimate strategy and has been since the introduction of the moves themselves.
I agree with Draws-stuff's post. I can't believe this is even being considered for a ban.
 
Geee I wonder if its cause its definatly not up against some very predictable looking teams?
Do you really think ladder teams are "predictable"? Have you ever seen a single SPL match? Obviously not, so shut the fuck up before you try to post while transfixed with the stereotype that ladder teams are purely generic. Ladder teams always carry lures and are usually complete with counters/checks and answers to most playstyles. The fact that this puts an extra burden on them isn't relevant to the discussion, but the fact that wins in competitive environments are based on nothing but coin flips is terrible.

Ban Swagger + Foul Play. If we do this, Choice Scarfers and generally fast offensive Pokemon will be able to outspeed and dent SwagPlay users, as well as powerful priority users IE Conkeldurr, Scizor.
 
Do you really think ladder teams are "predictable"? Have you ever seen a single SPL match? Obviously not, so shut the fuck up before you try to post while transfixed with the stereotype that ladder teams are purely generic. Ladder teams always carry lures and are usually complete with counters/checks and answers to most playstyles. The fact that this puts an extra burden on them isn't relevant to the discussion, but the fact that wins in competitive environments are based on nothing but coin flips is terrible.

Ban Swagger + Foul Play. If we do this, Choice Scarfers and generally fast offensive Pokemon will be able to outspeed and dent SwagPlay users, as well as powerful priority users IE Conkeldurr, Scizor.
Sets are predictable, players are not. I can tell a set a is a choice user, but I can also take into consideration it might be e-belt.
The higher you go, more variation comes in surprise factor, but really, when talking "viable" there are oh so many choices to choose from.

And seriously.
You see swag-foul-twave team? You should know whats coming.
Clearly, these teams did not carry their check for this game style. This gimmick.

You can talk about coinflip for missing a 90% hit move, getting t-bolt/icebeam proc, "crit mattered"
Atleast you didn't see those coming.
 
!dexsearch Swagger, Attract
Feebas, Noivern, Venusaur, Avalugg, Charmander, Charmeleon, Bergmite, Gourgeist-Large, Charizard-Mega-Y, Gourgeist, and 661 more. Redo the search with "all" as a search parameter to show all results.
 
Sets are predictable, players are not. I can tell a set a is a choice user, but I can also take into consideration it might be e-belt.
The higher you go, more variation comes in surprise factor, but really, when talking "viable" there are oh so many choices to choose from.

And seriously.
You see swag-foul-twave team? You should know whats coming.
Clearly, these teams did not carry their check for this game style. This gimmick.

You can talk about coinflip for missing a 90% hit move, getting t-bolt/icebeam proc, "crit mattered"
Atleast you didn't see those coming.
The fact that there is a reliance on said coin flips to win matches is the problem we face here. You can argue about the RNG and 80% hitting moves all you want, but at the end of the day it isn't the same thing because you chose that move over a lower BP move with higher damage (Hydro Pump --> Surf etc.). With SwagPlay, there is an automatic 50% chance that there will be devastating effects against the team, and even more so if Thunder Wave is in play. This is uncompetitive.

Also, you can see the strat coming, but you can't see the results of said strategy happening, and that's the main thing. At least if a Gyarados is in on your Choice-locked Overheat Heatran you know what's coming. With SwagPlay, the matchup is irrelevant.
 

peng

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the problem with this strategy is that swagger isn't just a 50:50. its a move you use and get like 3-4 turns of 50:50s following it whilst you can do whatever you want. all the swagger user needs is one 50% chance (confusion hit) out of those multiple chances they get and the swagger user gets a free sub and then the odds go from 50:50 to 25:75 (chance of hitting through confusion once to break sub then again to ko, assuming you can even ko it!). miss your hit against the sub and your chances of breaking through that pokemon just fall through the floor as you get paralysed. this isn't even considering the fact that if you get hit with confusion initially they also have the option of hitting you with a fast +2 foul play and potentially take you out without even needing to mess around with substitute and thunder wave.

before anyone says "switch!" you've just given them a free sub / twave on that turn and then they get to swagger you behind a sub; still not a good scenario!

so yes, its a luck based strategy but its even worse than that because the momentum the user gains from hitting the 50:50 is generally much greater than the advantage you gain from winning it. if you win, at best you KO the opposing swagger user and then another one comes in and starts subbing while you still have 2-3 50:50s to play against the rng.

why is this discussion even happing, ban swagger
 
if t-wave + swagger, etc. become popular then mons that normally don't use abilities like limber and own tempo grow in usage. you can say "those mons have far better abilities" but are they really better if this combo becomes dominant? this is called a growing metagame and to stifle that is fairly anti-competitive. just wanted to throw that out.
 
The fact that there is a reliance on said coin flips to win matches is the problem we face here. You can argue about the RNG and 80% hitting moves all you want, but at the end of the day it isn't the same thing because you chose that move over a lower BP move with higher damage (Hydro Pump --> Surf etc.). With SwagPlay, there is an automatic 50% chance that there will be devastating effects against the team, and even more so if Thunder Wave is in play. This is uncompetitive.

Also, you can see the strat coming, but you can't see the results of said strategy happening, and that's the main thing. At least if a Gyarados is in on your Choice-locked Overheat Heatran you know what's coming. With SwagPlay, the matchup is irrelevant.
"devatating". Any mon that really resists foulplay isn't gona get damaged as harsh as if you were against something thay actually dishes damage and lost a turn to a status. And in normal case, without the prankster, confusion isn't even a thing to consider if you can't rely on getting the sub or status up. Only one I can imagine being a good enough to even become a real threat with this would be thundurus or tornadus due of their prankster and high stats and move pool but, hey, you only have 4 move slots which is why they cannot really become so devastating!

swag-foul-twave-sub. Wow, so much tools here. I'm definatly sweeping with these. Oh wait these dark resisters didnt take much damage, woops.

The damage of of the swagplay really relies on being kept in the field to let the atk stat raise, which doesnt happen if you actually, you know, switch out, have something that resists dark, know how to switch around, maybe use a sound move to get past the sub, or taunt it to only use foul so it wont gather the atk stack up, put in a sub yourself on a mon that resists the fouls, multi hits, etc..

If they run swag-twave-foul, you know what they are doing, you know exactly its the only thing they can do. You really can't do much other with it cause of 4 move syndrome. Sure if a setup sweeper that could have sub, confusion introducion, way to stat up and then still have a move that is never resisted maybe you could call this truly devastating.

And if the foe only uses confusion, then they take a gigantic risk themselves rather than just statting up right away or doing something else more useful.
 
LOL at people who say switching over and over is a counter:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-91227906

Of course, you can also use defoggers/spinners, but I've killed a defogger/spinner with confusion before.
It's not that hard, and after you get rid of it, switching no longer becomes an option for your opponent.

Also this team of mine is packing a Sableye with Attract, to deal with pokemon immune to paralysis, a Thundurus with Toxic, to deal with walls, and a Ditto for all purpose sweeping.

if t-wave + swagger, etc. become popular then mons that normally don't use abilities like limber and own tempo grow in usage. you can say "those mons have far better abilities" but are they really better if this combo becomes dominant? this is called a growing metagame and to stifle that is fairly anti-competitive. just wanted to throw that out.
I don't want the metagame to grow into that. That's not what I'd call "growing".
 
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Bedschibaer

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Personally i don't think this strategy is really broken or anything. Yes there might be only a few things that are immune to Paralysis and Confusion, yes, it's really annoying to deal with if you aren't specifically prepared for it, etc etc. I still remember that guy on the suspect ladder who had a team of 6 pranksters, all doing swagplay. It was so ridiculous, he didn't even give one of them taunt or anything, it was just, well, a terrible team. Yet he had a win/loss ratio of almost 40% wins. I don't know if that speaks about the quality of the ladder or the effectiveness of this strategy, but it certainly proves that the strategy does work more or less effectively without any involvement of skill.
That brings me to my next point - skill. It just doesn't play a role on those teams, and that is the main reason why i wouldn't mind this strategy being banned. There are quite many examples of Pokemon or strategies that just pushed the boundaries of luck to get effective results. And we all know it works. Paraflinch Jirachi last gen is a good example, but it even goes back to Gen 1, with Twave Confuse Ray Lapras. The strategy of abusing luck has always been here, and actually the only thing it gained in Gen 6 is one more abuser in Klefki, a pretty good one that is, but still, the whole thing isn't new or anything, so why is it suddenly up for ban discussion?
Pokemon is a game that has alot luck involvement, that is also the reason why many people will never take competitive pokemon as seriously as many other competitive games. I completely support limiting the amount of hax and maximizing the needed amount of skill to win games, and even though this strategy is not directly broken, i do not mind it being banned at all. The most reasonable ban in my opinion would be Swagger (or confusion moves) on Pokemon with the ability Prankster, since it actually forces you to hope for the hax to not go your way many times, if you do not bring a very specific counter. Swagger as a whole being banned doesn't seem justified enough for me.

tl;dr: i don't think a ban of swagplay/swagger/prankster+swagger is necessary, even though i wouldn't mind it because the strategy relies on luck more than actual skill.
 
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Swagger or Swagger + Prankster needs to be banned for the following reasons.

1) There is no true counter to the strategy that isn't obscure. Espeon, Xatu, and any Magic Coat users really aren't too much of a help against SwagPlay, considering that the latter move mentioned (Foul Play) typically hits these users super-effectively. Considering the fact that people are now wanting to run obscure "counters" (which aren't remotely close to counters, by the way) to counter this "strategy" speaks values on its competitive merit.

2) Secondary statuses and Spikes. You cannot simply switch out against these Pokemon, lest you risk them getting weakened by Klefki's Spikes or crippled by a T-Wave. Under the latter conditions, getting an attack off to the Prankster is completely slim, turning the game into a luck-based struggle, with your opponent having a stacked deck against you.

3) There is no telling the outcome of SwagPlay's effects. I would give a hardy insult to those who say "you should know that its coming," but that would make me out to be a rather big jerk. There is no way to truly determine how SwagPlay will be, considering that further status effects and hazards can be brought onto the field with ease, and that the whole concept of the "strategy" is completely luck-based. Especially if you are facing a SwagPlay with T-Wave, you will be lucky to get off even one attack.
 
More matches based on luck, less matches based on skill.
i don't see a difference between this and banking on a "91.5% chance to 2hko" or the "1-3 turns to wake up from non-self induced sleep". there's plenty of luck in the game, and plenty match-deciders due to the luck. i'm sure a pokemon pro-mod would have been developed by now if all that was a serious problem. banning swagplay is just a slippery slope to a totally neutered game. luck is fine (and it makes for interesting matches that never play out exactly the same). you have to learn to ease the element for yourself if you run into problems with it, or just realize that maybe your perfect team could use a rework.
 
i don't see a difference between this and banking on a "91.5% chance to 2hko" or the "1-3 turns to wake up from non-self induced sleep". there's plenty of luck in the game, and plenty match-deciders due to the luck. i'm sure a pokemon pro-mod would have been developed by now if all that was a serious problem. banning swagplay is just a slippery slope to a totally neutered game. luck is fine (and it makes for interesting matches that never play out exactly the same). you have to learn to ease the element for yourself if you run into problems with it, or just realize that maybe your perfect team could use a rework.
I guess this was said countless times already but there is a HUGE difference between some RNG factors in the game and abusing a strategy that changes the whole match into a number of consecutive coinflipps to decide who wins. Every player can decide how much risk he wants to take when building his team, if ur risk averse just use flamethrower instead of fireblast and everything is fine. There already is a clause to minimize the effects of sleep, evasion, ohko moves and most other stuff thats purely luck based the only thing missing is Swagger and it realy deserves that restriction. No serious player will miss that move if it gets banned, the only purpose it has is to annoy people.

Because of that I think Swagger should be banned, it doesnt add anything usefull to the game and just makes it less fun to play.
 

fleurdyleurse

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So, here are my opinions:
Thundy doesn't run SwagPlay as it's main set, but Klefki does, which makes it the main proponent of SwagPlay. In the words of Yilx herself:
<Yilx> skillkeys;;;;;;

SwagPlay is mainly used in conjuction with Thunder Wave or Substitute. However, with the buff of Infiltrator, Thunder Wave is sometimes the preferred choice (sometimes both are used).

Let's look at the counters of the strategy in question:
- have 0 attack IVs (limited to special attackers)
- Taunt (Yes, Thundy can counter SwagPlay)
- Own Tempo (unviable)
- Magic Guard (most users of Magic Guard are weak to Dark, excluding Clefable)

What's the thing that makes SwagPlay so powerful, however? It's Swagger.
Swagger is what makes Foul Play so powerful, that we are discussing Banning Liepard from OU.

Indeed, the most simple things to do are:
- Ban Swagger with Foul Play
- Ban Swagger with Prankster
- Ban Swagger

Take a bit of time to recall Assist+Prankster in NU last gen. It was banned from there and is what SwagPlay is now. However, what's the game without luck? In my opinion, we should just Ban Swagger+Prankster and do nothing else. It's not SwagPlay itself that's broken, it's the priority that goes with Swagger.
I believe that that is the best option.
 
annoying your opponent is absolutely a legitimate strategy in the context of pokemon and many other e-sports/real life sports

but ok, if you want it banned at least be consistent and ban confuse ray, serene grace paraflinch, etccccc
 
This is really starting to turn into "fox only, no items, final destination". Is this really what competitive pokemon is gonna become? The last few bans were already stretching it, but this one will take the cake. Faster priority users, persim berries, own tempo users, nobody has these? I use an Own Tempo Lilligant myself, and these teams are just free Sleep Powder/Quiver Dances. Hell, everyone's favorite mon, Talonflame should have a field day with these things thanks to his priority BB spam.

Luck will always be a part of this game simply because of the RNG factor. You can't completely eliminate it. All this banning is just gonna lead to everyone with the same teams.

Actually, is this another stall team problem? It seems like all the things getting suspected are woes of stall teams.
 
Actually stall teams fare really well against SwagPlay, as the most defensive Pokémon simply don't kill themselves. It's a bigger problem for offensive teams.
 

Ununhexium

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annoying your opponent is absolutely a legitimate strategy in the context of pokemon and many other e-sports/real life sports

but ok, if you want it banned at least be consistent and ban confuse ray, serene grace paraflinch, etccccc
well the reason swagger in specific is being discussed is because it works well with foul play. also, paraflinch is less luck based because you actually control the "flinch" part and you dont hit substitute and hope for the best.
 
This is such a complex thing to discuss, it brings up the very nature of what a Pokemon battle is.

A Pokemon battle, as designed by those who made the game, takes variance, "luck", and risk/reward as components of the matches. Confusion, priority, all these things are that which, for better or for worse, help define what a Pokemon battle is.


As a competitive game, pokemon's variance is frustrating, almost juvenile in comparison to others. If Pokemon were a fighting game like street fighter, this variance could be likened to having their fighter trip in the middle of a well practiced combo due to random chance of slippage (like that idiocy employed in smash bros brawl).

If pokemon's variance were a sports game, it would be like fifa's pass assistance that purposely makes you pass to a teammate too far, or make your defender trip on their own feet as they go to intercept a CPU pass.

There's no doubt about it. As a competitive game, Pokemon is subpar. There's too many things out of a players control that greatly affect a match. In a match once, my opponent burned me with a flare blitz and critted, while my entei's sacred fire failed to burn after four back to back strikes.

As players of this game we have two choices:

Submit to the random, broken aspects of the game.

Tailor out these parts to make the game rely less and less on such variances.


Obviously the second path is the one chosen. Ok, and so far the bans have made sense. They are bans that prevent a player from winning without skill in prediction, team building, and move set choices.

I write all this because, while I think preventative measures are necessary I am a bit disappointed in the amount of players calling for the ban of all confusion moves, or for the ban of prankster, and worse, how much support they're getting.

If a player relies on confusion, you shouldn't be having trouble with them. Anyone who flips a coin and closes his eyes can be easily stopped. Grab the coin and put your winning side on his expectant, naive palms. Players like that aren't a threat.

Prankster? Low distribution and skill can be employed to defeat it, without reliance on variance. Prankster sableye? Bring in a fire type, or a cleric, or a Pokemon that can stomach a burn, or a special attacker who doesn't care.

Thundurus? Klefki? A ground or electric type sounds good to me.

The rest? Purrloin, and Murkrow? Gimme a break. That stuff is in NU and rotting for a reason.

Forgive me for be so broad and pompous, and I do agree that there needs to be a counter measure for this style of play as it is abusive of game mechanics, and requires little to no effort on the part of the player.

When does this abuse begin? When prankster allows confusion to strike first. At that point that variance rears its ugly head, and suddenly the game is a toin coss.

Confusion isn't the problem, prankster isn't the problem. Priority confusion is, because it brings back that variance the mods here try to so hard to carve out.

Ban prankster being used in conjunction with a confusion inducing move. It's complex, but its better than banning abilities and a game mechanic.

What next? Ban serene grace? Ban flinch moves?

Come on guys. There's always a cheap tactic in every game. Don't blow it out of proportions.
 
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Ununhexium

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This is such a complex thing to discuss, it brings up the very nature of what a Pokemon battle is.

A Pokemon battle, as designed by those who made the game, takes variance, "luck", and risk/reward as components of the matches. Confusion, priority, all these things are thugs that, for better or for worse, help define what a Pokemon battle is.


As a competitive game, pokemon's variance is frustrating, almost juvenile in comparison to others. If Pokemon were a fighting game like street fighter, this variance could be likened to having their fighter trip in the middle of a well practiced combo due to random chance of slippage (like that idiocy employed in smash bros brawl).

If pokemon's variance were a sports game, it would be like fifa's pass assistance that purposely makes you pass to a teammate to far, or make your defender trip on their own feet as they go to intercept a CPU pass.

There's no doubt about it. As a competitive game, Pokemon is subpar. There's too many things out of a players control that greatly affect a match. In a match once, my opponent burned me with a flare blitz and critted, while my entei's sacred fire failed to burn after four back to back strikes.

As players of this game we have two choices:

Submit to the random, broken aspects of the game.

Tailor out these parts to make the game rely less and less on such variances.


Obviously the second path is the one chosen. Ok, and so far the band have made sense. They are bans that prevent a player from winning without skill in prediction, team building, and move set choices.

I write all this because, while I think preventative measures are necessary I am a bit disappointed in the amount of players calling for the ban of all confusion moves, or for the ban of prankster, and worse, how much support they're getting.

If a player relies on confusion, you shouldn't be having trouble with them. Anyone who flips a coin and closes his eyes can be easily stopped. Grab the coin and put your winning side on his expectant, naive palms. Players like that aren't a threat.

Prankster? Low distribution and skill can be employed to defeat it, without reliance on variance. Prankster sableye? Bring in a fire type, or a cleric, or a Pokemon that can stomach a burn, or a special attacker who doesn't care.

Thundurus? Klefki? A ground or electric type sounds good to me.

The rest? Purrloin, and Murkrow? Gimme a break. That stuff is in NU and rotting for a reason.

Forgive me for be so broad and pompous, and I do agree that there needs to be a counter measure for this style of play as it is abusive of game mechanics, and requires little to no effort on the part of the player.

When does this abuse begin? When prankster allows confusion to strike first. At that point that variance rears its ugly head, and suddenly the game is a toin coss.

Confusion isn't the problem, prankster isn't the problem. Priority confusion is, because it brings back that variance the mods here try to so hard to carve out.

Ban prankster being used in conjunction with a confusion inducing move. It's complex, but its better than banning abilities and a game mechanic.

What next? Ban serene grace? Ban flinch moves?

Come on guys. There's always a cheap tactic in every game. Don't blow it out of proportions.
i agree with you. i said in an earlier post that i dont mind them induvidually but together they are utterly annoying.
 
If we want to ban anything, I think we have to specifically ban having the ability prankster and the moves thunder wave and swagger all on the same poke. If you can't have all three of these things, it becomes too hard to use the strategy effectively.
 
Actually stall teams fare really well against SwagPlay, as the most defensive Pokémon simply don't kill themselves. It's a bigger problem for offensive teams.
I have to question the build of these teams. What kind of offensive team lacks priority users? The strategy is a gamble anyways because what happens when 1 turn confusion? Suddenly a boosted sweeper is raping the enemy.
 
This is really starting to turn into "fox only, no items, final destination". Is this really what competitive pokemon is gonna become? The last few bans were already stretching it, but this one will take the cake. Faster priority users, persim berries, own tempo users, nobody has these? I use an Own Tempo Lilligant myself, and these teams are just free Sleep Powder/Quiver Dances. Hell, everyone's favorite mon, Talonflame should have a field day with these things thanks to his priority BB spam.

Luck will always be a part of this game simply because of the RNG factor. You can't completely eliminate it. All this banning is just gonna lead to everyone with the same teams.

Actually, is this another stall team problem? It seems like all the things getting suspected are woes of stall teams.
Stall laughs at swagplay. Chansey/Blissey/walls with low attack take basically nothing from Foul Play/Confusion hax, and worst case scenario can end up stalling swagplay teams out of pp. I know I've done it.

But a serious question to everyone: how often do people actually see Swagplay teams these days? I've seen fewer and fewer the higher I get up the ladder, and just seriously don't view it as a major threat. I'm surprised that we would go so far as to ban it, and I'm not in favor of it.
 
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