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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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I think this discussion needs to be held off for a little while. I think the ingenuity of Smogon will find a solution to the SwagPlay strategy in team-building: if it does, then the issue has been solved.
If it cannot, then this discussion needs to be held again. I think this is comparable to the Stealth Rock discussion of Gen 4. A new strategy is introduced that many players are frustrated against because they are unprepared for it. I don't think the issue here is that the strategy can't be beat, but that people are unprepared for it and as it becomes more well-known more people flock to it. Maybe we'll see more Lum Berries, Mental Herbs, and other such things. Maybe we'll see more Taunters, more Pokemon with Own Tempo, I don't know. But I think seeing what the team-building response to Prankster teams running around throwing Thunder Wave and Swagger is before something gets flat-out thrown out.
If it cannot, then this discussion needs to be held again. I think this is comparable to the Stealth Rock discussion of Gen 4. A new strategy is introduced that many players are frustrated against because they are unprepared for it. I don't think the issue here is that the strategy can't be beat, but that people are unprepared for it and as it becomes more well-known more people flock to it. Maybe we'll see more Lum Berries, Mental Herbs, and other such things. Maybe we'll see more Taunters, more Pokemon with Own Tempo, I don't know. But I think seeing what the team-building response to Prankster teams running around throwing Thunder Wave and Swagger is before something gets flat-out thrown out.
Alright at this point I can see Garchomp was a bad example so I apologize. My main point was that I don't advocate players using luck-oriented strategies in an competitive environment.
Also, I guess my two sprites didn't make this clear enough. PRANKSTER in tandem with Swagger+Foul Play+Thunder Wave is what needs to go. Obviously having a Mew or Smeargle utilize the strategy is not all too effective.
My main point was that I don't advocate promoting or keeping playstyles where players disregard all competitive, strategic aspects of the game and just Swagger+Foul Pay+Thunder Wave.
You need to cool down and stop taking everything I say to another level.
I never said all gimmicky playstyles/pokemon should be hit with a ban hammer. The fact that Swagger+Foul Play+Thunder Wave are gimmicks are not my basis for a ban. It's the fact that it's luck-oriented, strategic-less nature can effectively win games and unfairly snatch away wins from people who were seeking more competitive opponents that is causing an issue for me.
Argument #3 is completing ignoring half my argument. No competent player seriously seeks to win games by praying for all their Ice Beams to freeze, Fire Blasts to burn and Thunderbolts to paralyze. Those are aspects of the game we cannot eliminate or control. And because the chances for such haxs are not generally frequent we tend to accept them as an aspect to the game.
SwagPlay is different because the player constantly seeks to confuse them, paralyze them and hit them with Foul Play. This is only compounded by the fact that SwagPlay is effectively viable. The probability of the SwagPlay user getting the desired haxs are in his/her favor (>50%).
I want you to insert Evasion into Argument #4 and tell me if you want Evasion clause lifted as well. Cause trust me, my Minimize Drifblim is just ready to wreck the OU ladder right now.
We already discovered NUMEL/NATU
WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM US?!?! We found two legitimate counters to swagplay
I'm confused, why is everyone saying SwagPlay is "uncompetitive"? The essence of competitive is to win, and if this strategy can win without being overpowered or overcentralizing then I fail to see the "uncompetitiveness".
Harunosux. This is all just a ploy to make sure swag play remains unbanned since without it how am I supposed to win OST?!?!
In all seriousness though, absol can't switch in without being mevo already. SO CUZ IT CANT SWITCH IN ON WHATEVER THEN IT ISNT A COUNTER! ALSO FIRE MISS
Yeah, Ferrothorn doesnt exist.
Own Tempo is unviable, Lilligant and non-regenerator Slowbro sucks, Taunters can hit themselves, and Lum berry is one time use.
4 Swagplay users + Chansey counter + Ditto
THE MOST COMPETITIVE THING EVER
Drat. Okay, I'll rephrase that.
"I don't know where you are, my fine friend, but I'm on the Internet, where I can have enough lip to match Brer Rabbit and get away with it. If you can't handle that, take a hike."
There probably are counters to that statement, but they're probably considerably more obscure than the First Amendment rebuttal. Kudos on that one, by the way.
Also...
"... not from an informal group of gamers who aren't interested in your ridiculous comparisons."
*Cackles* That's where you're wrong, my friend. I am very much interested in my so-called ridiculous comparisons, thank you very much. That's all I need.
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Now, on to the topic at hand.
...There really isn't much to say. I need to modify my earlier statement to say "most competitive Pokemon (that aren't support 'mons) carry at least one move that doesn't have 100% accuracy". Here are some things to chew on:
1) Your example of Mega Charizard Y is a shining specimen.
2) Mega Mawile's Play Rough isn't quite as noteworthy, but it sure isn't a 100% accuracy move, either.
3) High Jump Kick. Like SwagPlay, it's a gamble. (Don't quote Blaziken at me. He's the only user of High Jump Kick that got banned, and that was only part of the reason.)
3) Venusaur's Sleep Powder is a serious pain in the neck... and if it's in the sun, then it's as good as a priority move, as the only Pokemon faster than Venusaur in the sun (that isn't using priority) is Chlorophyll Leafeon... which is FAR more obscure than some of the counters to SwagPlay. Also, Sanji's statistic about SwagPlay being more reliable than the aforementioned Sleep Powder means that Sleep Powder (especially Chlorophyll Venusaur's Sleep Powder) is actually "worse" than SwagPlay... and last I checked, nobody was calling for Sleep Powder bans. There are plenty more examples outside of these, too.
SwagPlay, certainly, can be rather infuriating, but it can be countered, and there are plenty of strategies that have the element of chance in them. If you really want to eliminate chance, then either make all moves 100% hits or ban the ones that aren't. People say that those chances are "different", but they aren't really. They're introducing a role of a die as a gamble for power. All moves that aren't 100% accurate do this. This is essentially the same.
As an aside: I also noticed that most people aren't responding to Sanji's posts. Is it, perhaps, because they can't be answered?
Because it turns matches into a dice roll. If you roll a 6, then you win. You could be the best OU player in the world and lose 15% of games to Swagplay users who you would otherwise only lose 1% of the time to if they were using any other playstyle.
It's EZ!! Just lead with Absol.
I see your attempt to be sarcastic, but it failed. Your team is consists of a good revenge killer, a counter to a common wall, and four pokemon all using the same strategy. Seems viable enough to me, and considering this thread exists it has been doing good work.
If the top OU player loses 15% of the time, then that means SwagPlay fails 85% of the time. How is something that fails 85% of the time even close to broken?
Who the fuck needs a revenge killer when you have 4 mons spamming prankster twave. Get Gud plz
Oh hi everyone. Though I'd put my two cents into this.
Q1. Ban Swagger?
No. Swagger as a move has existed since Gen II. Clearly if it had Uber-broken potential it would be have been banned four generations ago. So is Swagger the problem? No, its not. The move hasn't changed at all.
Q2. Ban Prankster?
Nope. Is Prankster a good ability? Hell yeah it is, it gives tremendous support power to a Pokemon. But that's it. It's offensive potential is very minimal. I'd much rather ban Gale Wings because of the combined offensive and supportive potential it brings to the table(but that's a whole 'nother discussion). Prankster is a good ability, but its not broken.
Q3. Ban the combination of Swagger and Prankster on the same Pokémon?
Nope. See, I really don't think that Swagger is much of a problem honestly. We can say it is, but the real probably with SwagPlay sets generally comes from the fact that while Confusion is easily curable, paralysis isn't and even if you do break through said Prankster Pokemon, it could end up crippling you in the process. Running Swagger also takes up a moveslot that could be used for other moves(this is more for Pokemon like Whimsicott, Klefki, and Sableye.)
Q4. Ban teams from having more than two (2) Pokémon who have Prankster for their ability?
I think this is the best path. Now here's why. I'm gonna make a YGO analogy here because I think it fits. SwagPlay teams to me seem a lot like Empty Jar decks in YGO. You continually push one strategy until you beat your opponent, and they both have amazing potential when done right.. They both have situational and somewhat nonviable counters. The reason why Empty Jar isn't seen everywhere? It's not consistent enough. That's the main difference. Let's face it, its likely that one or two SwagPlay Pokemon may not make much of an impact on average, as most teams have one or two checks naturally built in with them. But can those checks stand up to having to deal with six Pokemon? Not likely, and I think that's what makes the strategy silly. It's a bit too consistent when you up the number of abusers.
That's my take on it, and I'm likely not going to post again because I have a lot of other stuff on my plate. Figured I'd give my two cents and vamoose.
Q1. Ban Swagger?
No. Swagger as a move has existed since Gen II. Clearly if it had Uber-broken potential it would be have been banned four generations ago. So is Swagger the problem? No, its not. The move hasn't changed at all.
Q2. Ban Prankster?
Nope. Is Prankster a good ability? Hell yeah it is, it gives tremendous support power to a Pokemon. But that's it. It's offensive potential is very minimal. I'd much rather ban Gale Wings because of the combined offensive and supportive potential it brings to the table(but that's a whole 'nother discussion). Prankster is a good ability, but its not broken.
Q3. Ban the combination of Swagger and Prankster on the same Pokémon?
Nope. See, I really don't think that Swagger is much of a problem honestly. We can say it is, but the real probably with SwagPlay sets generally comes from the fact that while Confusion is easily curable, paralysis isn't and even if you do break through said Prankster Pokemon, it could end up crippling you in the process. Running Swagger also takes up a moveslot that could be used for other moves(this is more for Pokemon like Whimsicott, Klefki, and Sableye.)
Q4. Ban teams from having more than two (2) Pokémon who have Prankster for their ability?
I think this is the best path. Now here's why. I'm gonna make a YGO analogy here because I think it fits. SwagPlay teams to me seem a lot like Empty Jar decks in YGO. You continually push one strategy until you beat your opponent, and they both have amazing potential when done right.. They both have situational and somewhat nonviable counters. The reason why Empty Jar isn't seen everywhere? It's not consistent enough. That's the main difference. Let's face it, its likely that one or two SwagPlay Pokemon may not make much of an impact on average, as most teams have one or two checks naturally built in with them. But can those checks stand up to having to deal with six Pokemon? Not likely, and I think that's what makes the strategy silly. It's a bit too consistent when you up the number of abusers.
That's my take on it, and I'm likely not going to post again because I have a lot of other stuff on my plate. Figured I'd give my two cents and vamoose.
Ditto is there to copy swagger boosts in case things get out of hand, not as a revenge killer.
Is viable because you can kill everything with pure luck.
Again, if swagplay can be checked or countered isn't the point.
The question is: why we need swagplay?
I'm well aware. You quoted the wrong post lol
Because it's another viable strategy. Just because it makes you upset doesn't make it fair ground to be banned.
I was answering your quote to the post that said "4 swagplay, chansey counter, and ditto."
But if I did just derp sorry :P
These same exact arguments apply to the early Gen 4 meta.
Rapid Spin: "Pokémon have better moves to run than Rapid Spin. Starmie prefers Recover or Psychic, Blastoise prefers Sleep Talk or Toxic, and Tentacruel prefers Giga Drain or Substitute." Didn't stop the natural evolution of these Pokémon into the premiere Rapid Spinners of their tiers. A need was there -- Stealth Rock removal that easily fit into teams -- and these Pokémon filled it.
Sturdy: "Sturdy Pokémon aren't generally found in the OU metagame and some of them have better abilities to run (e.g. Aggron)." And then suddenly something happened in Gen 4 that changed everything and made Sturdy the must-have ability on many Pokémon with access to it.
It isn't just Safeguard or Own Tempo: this applies to all moves and abilities that were second fiddle until Gen n but that become the top dogs in Gen n because of the different landscape of the Gen n meta. If we reach a meta where Explosion is restored to its former power of 250 x 2 (or effectively 500) base power, and if there were some Pokémon who had a hilariously OP ability like "Self-destruction moves do not cause the user to faint but instead cause the user to lose 50% of their remaining HP," then putting aside Smogon's knee-jerk reaction to ban such an ability, you can bet that people would begin to run Damp left and right: even though, in the current metagame, no one in their right mind would run Damp over Water Absorb or even pitiful Torrent. If we reach a metagame where Safeguard finally has OU relevance, are we to ban any and all factors which have resulted in this outcome, desperately preserving the status quo of earlier generations we're so comfortable with? Or do we say, "Hey! The times are a-changin' and Safeguard, after being irrelevant for so many years in OU 6v6 Singles, finally has a reason to be here again. Wow. :) How about that." Saying that Pokémon "have better things to do than to run Safeguard" is not an answer. It wasn't an answer for Rapid Spin & Stealth Rock in Gen 4 and it isn't any better an answer now. If the metagame has shifted to make certain older moves, abilities, and/or Pokémon into the lords of the new era, then so be it.
Actually, gen 2 didn't have prankster or Liepard who got priority with confusion+attack boost+paralyze+damage based on their attack stat. Also the main reason this is being discussed now is Klefki, a steel fairy, something gen 2 could never have imagined.
Then clearly the problem isn't Swagger. Clearly its the other things introduced.
So your answer is to ban Swagger when it alone isn't even the issue, totally shutting down completely unrelated strategies that non-Prankster Pokemon use? That's lovely.
Some of those ideas were just options (e.g. Shed Skin, others that I've not mentioned) which you're correct don't see a lot of OU use, I'll address what's relevant:
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 84-100 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 152-179 (37.4 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
As I said, it's a long time coming to get to +6 Atk, most of these pokemon have recovery (if not also a status removing move) and their special attacks hit SwagPlayers quite hard. This is also looking at STAB Foul Play, which with Thundurus and the like it won't be, and Clefable can run Unaware completely negating it's own attack rise in regards to Foul Play (I've checked and this is the case).
Noivern is a great example of a pokemon who can Taunt, Switcheroo or hit behind subs (and it has a pretty decent move pool).
0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 92-110 (21.6 - 25.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 4HKO
This is of course after the self-inflicted paralysis/confusion from you using Magic Bounce.
Here's what I'm running:
Manaphy @ Damp Rock
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Rain Dance
- U-turn
- Rest
- Scald
Any - and I mean just about any - specially focussed fairy. The following examples are all +6 Atk (but zero attack IVs), which SwagPlay users never typically reach:
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 84-100 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 152-179 (37.4 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
As I said, it's a long time coming to get to +6 Atk, most of these pokemon have recovery (if not also a status removing move) and their special attacks hit SwagPlayers quite hard. This is also looking at STAB Foul Play, which with Thundurus and the like it won't be, and Clefable can run Unaware completely negating it's own attack rise in regards to Foul Play (I've checked and this is the case).
You should give people the respect to address their comments properly, if you do not do so I won't address you again.
Noivern is a great example of a pokemon who can Taunt, Switcheroo or hit behind subs (and it has a pretty decent move pool).
Fine I'll concede, this is one of the more risky counter measures you can take.
As a one off measure, it works fine, if you're facing a whole team granted you might have issues.
How about Jolteon, Raikou, Magnezone, Zapdos, Thundurus, Heliolisk or Manectric? They're OU viable even if they're not common, and some of them have low attack scores.
It's not a hard counter, but it certainly works quite a bit of the time against a strategy that's shaky at best.
It has wider distribution than just psychic type, and some psychic types have reasonable defense (0 Atk EVs):
0- Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 92-110 (21.6 - 25.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 4HKO
This is of course after the self-inflicted paralysis/confusion from you using Magic Bounce.
It's on my current team, due to it's good bulk it works like a charm. It may not be extremely meta, but it's far from a bad strategy.
Here's what I'm running:
Manaphy @ Damp Rock
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Rain Dance
- U-turn
- Rest
- Scald
I didn't recommend anything, I was just pointing out that people are hardly limited in their options as you're trying to make out. Talonflame is much more limiting - you have to have something that can with stand CB priority STAB 120 Brave Bird or a STAB 120 Flare Blitz. Talonflame is also very, very meta and people also put it on there teams because of ease of use (clicking Brave Bird is no more skillful than going through the motions of SwagPlay in essence if you shoehorn Talonflame onto your team with no synergy). Obviously we're not here to discuss Talonflame so I won't take it any further, but I see Talonflame much more than I see Prankster SwagPlay and it shapes any team I decide to make perhaps more so than any other concern.
I wouldn't care if Moody was unbanned, all the pokemon that get it are pretty terrible anyway - there wasn't much point in banning it IMO. Evasion you can't really counter, other than using subpar perfect accuracy moves which you don't have to with SwagPlay. Also Evasion is so broken that practically everyone would use it if it were unbanned, not everyone uses SwagPlay by far - I probably see it only 1/10 matches if that.
What strategy is there that uses swagger w/o prankster or foul play? I've really only seen swagger used by Liepard and Klefki.
People comparing using to swag play to Sleep Powder and Focus Blast seriously need to stop. While these moves also introduce luck into the game they are absolutely incomparable to prankster swag. Prankster swagger is a strategy that attempts to win solely through the introduction of luck into the game, while sleep powder and focus blasts are moves people use in spite of the fact they have the potential of missing. Prankster swag play absolutely follows the precedent set for banning uncompetitive moves, such as the OHKO and evasion clauses, because like these moves it is a strategy that takes little to no skill to implement and reduces the game to a series of coin flips. While it is true in the long run that a pokemon that has been hit by swagger is statistically more likely than not going to hit itself in confusion this doesn't change the fact that during the first turn you have a 45% chance of failure (ie there is a 10% chance swagger misses, and then of the 90% chance it does hit there is a 50% chance they don't hit themselves in conusion). The fact that swagger is consistent in the long run only makes it more uncompetitive, because the user of swagger only has to win one coin flip, and then it can sub spam till the opponent hits themselves in confusion.
Basically when if I build a team that uses focus blast, I introduce luck into the game that can only backfire on myself, I take a risk in exchange for the higher power (or coverage). But when I build a team that uses prankster swagger I introduce luck that can negatively affect my opponent as well as myself, and while there are other moves that do this, none have nearly as good of a chance, or so few viable counters. Literally all own tempo mons are really shitty outside of "countering" swag play teams (countering in quotes because they all still lose to foul play).
So, can anyone give me an example team that consistently beats swag play teams, and is still viable on the OU ladder (consistently meaning the game doesn't come down to more than coin flips)?
Basically when if I build a team that uses focus blast, I introduce luck into the game that can only backfire on myself, I take a risk in exchange for the higher power (or coverage). But when I build a team that uses prankster swagger I introduce luck that can negatively affect my opponent as well as myself, and while there are other moves that do this, none have nearly as good of a chance, or so few viable counters. Literally all own tempo mons are really shitty outside of "countering" swag play teams (countering in quotes because they all still lose to foul play).
So, can anyone give me an example team that consistently beats swag play teams, and is still viable on the OU ladder (consistently meaning the game doesn't come down to more than coin flips)?
This is such a shitty argument that completely ignore precedent set by Evasion and OHKO clause, are you saying that evasion moves are okay cause, "MUH AERIAL ACE," or OHKO is okay cause "MUH STURDY?" This just completely ignores the big picture about the competitiveness of the meta game and frankly shows little knowledge of how bans like these have worked in the past.
This isn't about whether it is a viable or good strategy, it is about whether or not it is a competitive strategy, and whether or not it is healthy for a competitive meta game, and I don't see how introducing a series of coin flips is at all competitive.
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