SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[PellOfTheTundra]

I just noticed that my avatar is super relevant for this discussion.

On-Topic: My stance is to Hold off until the metagame settles. With such a huge number of changes, my personal opinion is that we are trying to do too much too soon, and that will end in a boring game once the dust settles. I have seen both sides of this argument, coming in completely neutral, and I shall stay as such. I just do not think that we have fully developed how this new game works enough to implement such a ban.

I personally have used Swagger on Sableye since early generation 5. I think we all did. He was never considered broken due to his inability to hit nonphysical Pokemon and his ability to easily be shut down by Taunt, as well as the dominance of Heatran in OU making Will-O-Wisp too risky.
I have played against SwagPlay teams myself, extensively. On wifi (using FC sharing sites), they are everywhere. It is a good team type. Unbeatable? No. Overpowered? A bit.
I have even used the team type myself, and was not suprised. The power of RNGsus is way strong, and I feel that it has been shown as such.

HOWEVER, I do not feel it warrants a ban at this time. With such an unsettled metagame, I do not believe we can truly judge whether or not this strategy (if you can call it that) is worth banning.

A major factor for my decision, should this discussion resume at a later date, is Thundurus-I. As you all know, Thundurus-I was banned in generation V for access to Prankster Thunder Wave, a massive special attack stat, and general synergy with the rampant Rain teams. He is also, in my opinion, the #1 threat to SwagPlay this generation. There are, however, people calling for his ban again, even after the Rain and Thunder Wave nerfs.

I am going to say this only once: If Thundurus-I is banned, ban Swagger in combination with Prankster.

As for those calling for ALL confusion+Prankster bans, I would say that none are nearly as broken without:
A) increased confusion damage due to Swagger's +2 effect
B) increased Foul Play damage due to Swagger's +2 effect
What the other confusion-based moves lack is the +2 attack boost, and that is why I oppose Confusion bans outright.

That's all I have to say on the subject. Feel free to discuss with me.

Also, lickilickilickilickilickilickilicky.

 

[Soul Fly]

So the swagplay user's moveset is taunt, swagger, foul play, and most likely sub to not get themselves confused. Well, Reuniclus does get Night Shade, which will eat through the swagplay user regardless of subs. So it does force the switch. I don't see how that's a waste of time at all.

Yes I agree. Night shade Reuniclus is awesome. What was the bit about not straining teambuilding again

[Nixhex writes something about SwagPlay being a coinflip]

More or less, this is true of every match in the game. When your Play Rough misses that dragon type, making you lose the game. When that Scald burned a majority of your team. When you were fully paralyzed 3 turns in a row. What is the reason we don't ban other elements of the game that make it a coinflip? Just because these elements do have preventative measures, swagplay does as well, and these are much more common and versatile then a full swagplay team.

Last time I checked coinflip meant a 50-50 chance... so unless Play Rough somehow magically got an accuracy drop to 50% or Scald's burn rate was increased to half, IDK what the hell you're talking about.

 

[Lee]

Why just Prankster/Swagger? Every argument seems to revolve around Prankster+Swagger+Thunder Wave? Is the former combination as much of an issue as the latter? It's pedantic to some I'm sure but if we're going to open that complex ban can of worms, we may as well nail down the exact problematic combination.

Or how about banning Swagger+Foul Play?

 

[Soul Fly]

Why just Prankster/Swagger? Every argument seems to revolve around Prankster+Swagger+Thunder Wave? Is the former combination as much of an issue as the latter? It's pedantic to some I'm sure but if we're going to open that complex ban can of worms, we may as well nail down the exact problematic combination.

Or how about banning Swagger+Foul Play?

That indeed is as you say, a can of worms. neither of the three are broken in tandem or individually without Prankster. Prankster itself isn't broken on it's own, and in fact adds a whole new dimension to this speed based meta. If it were me I'd just ban swagger, since it has no competitive viability apart from coinflip hax (even without prankster)... But if people don't want to touch swagger alone.. (IDK why though, it has literally no use outside this strategy) banning prankster+Swagger would be the best alternative.

 

[Joim]

I'm in favour of banning the combination of Swagger and Prankster. Swagger isn't that bad per se, it's the combination of it with Prankster (allowing also priority t-wave and sub) which makes it unbearable. Swagger is found on a lot of Pokémon, but generally more competitive movesets will always be better. It's not the same with priority, which allows NU mons to steamroll Ubers.

 

[Xozzen]

Honestly, I don't think it needs to be banned. Yes iti is luck based for the most part, but you still need to invest a turn into it, you raise your opponents attack with it which can come to bite you back greatly and it can just outright miss aswell. Hitting yourself in confusion is very frustrating, but trying to go against a basic mechanic such as confusion with bans and stuff is not the right way.

 

[Toljik]

I just noticed that my avatar is super relevant for this discussion.

On-Topic: My stance is to Hold off until the metagame settles. With such a huge number of changes, my personal opinion is that we are trying to do too much too soon, and that will end in a boring game once the dust settles. I have seen both sides of this argument, coming in completely neutral, and I shall stay as such. I just do not think that we have fully developed how this new game works enough to implement such a ban.

I personally have used Swagger on Sableye since early generation 5. I think we all did. He was never considered broken due to his inability to hit nonphysical Pokemon and his ability to easily be shut down by Taunt, as well as the dominance of Heatran in OU making Will-O-Wisp too risky.
I have played against SwagPlay teams myself, extensively. On wifi (using FC sharing sites), they are everywhere. It is a good team type. Unbeatable? No. Overpowered? A bit.
I have even used the team type myself, and was not suprised. The power of RNGsus is way strong, and I feel that it has been shown as such.

HOWEVER, I do not feel it warrants a ban at this time. With such an unsettled metagame, I do not believe we can truly judge whether or not this strategy (if you can call it that) is worth banning.

A major factor for my decision, should this discussion resume at a later date, is Thundurus-I. As you all know, Thundurus-I was banned in generation V for access to Prankster Thunder Wave, a massive special attack stat, and general synergy with the rampant Rain teams. He is also, in my opinion, the #1 threat to SwagPlay this generation. There are, however, people calling for his ban again, even after the Rain and Thunder Wave nerfs.

I am going to say this only once: If Thundurus-I is banned, ban Swagger in combination with Prankster.

As for those calling for ALL confusion+Prankster bans, I would say that none are nearly as broken without:
A) increased confusion damage due to Swagger's +2 effect
B) increased Foul Play damage due to Swagger's +2 effect
What the other confusion-based moves lack is the +2 attack boost, and that is why I oppose Confusion bans outright.

That's all I have to say on the subject. Feel free to discuss with me.

Also, lickilickilickilickilickilickilicky.

But isn't Thundurus itself one of the major SwagPlay users?

 

[Grey Knight]

On-Topic: My stance is to Hold off until the metagame settles. With such a huge number of changes, my personal opinion is that we are trying to do too much too soon, and that will end in a boring game once the dust settles.

You know what is going to be boring ? metagame settles with rotom-W in every second team and then even if you ban this cancer to wait for a year till its usage drops , the thing is that OU doesn't have many of those special electric types with low attack that are relatively good on dealing with this , it has rotom-W and that's where it ends , uu and lower tiers have a big supply of viable electric types of this nature , jolteon , magnezone , zapdos and many others they take little from swagger thanks to their low attack stats and the fact people down there are used to an environment with foul play so they often reduce attack ivs to null .

 

[PellOfTheTundra]

You know what is going to be boring ? metagame settles with rotom-W in every second team and then even if you ban this cancer to wait for a year till its usage drops , the thing is that OU doesn't have many of those special electric types with low attack that are relatively good on dealing with this , it has rotom-W and that's where it ends , uu and lower tiers have a big supply of viable electric types of this nature , jolteon , magnezone , zapdos and many others they take little from swagger thanks to their low attack stats and the fact people down there are used to an environment with foul play so they often reduce attack ivs to null .

Rotom is already in every other team, and has been for a long time. He is a good mon regardless of his ability to counter SwagPlay. He will always, barring a significant meta shift, be one of the greatest Pokemon there are due to just how versitile he is. If that wasn't blatantly obvious before, I am sorry for you. I want this metagame to cool its surface before we start building life and making new rules, because until we actually develop the meta as a whole, rules we make could be detrimental. Don't get me wrong, I don't like these cheap tricks either, but I don't think we should rush into making rules when SO MUCH has changed since last generation.

 

[X5Dragon]

The reason why shouldn't ban Swagger alone is simple, we don't people to get the wrong idea. If we ban swagger, then confusion (lulz) arises about what we actually think and pinning the blame on the wrong thing. It is worth the complex ban to blame A) the right thing that is broken here which is Prankster + Swagger, B) send a message that does not say Confusion = broken.

I think it is very similar to the decision making process involving funbro and endless battles, we could have easily just banned Leppa Berry, and the item has near no competitive use outside of those gimmicks.

 

[T-Bolt]

Wait so people @Itol6 have advanced strategies, well build teams and good ideas with swagger? How the fuck is this noobish and uncompetitive?

You're missing the point. It isn't that you can't use strategies when utilising Swagplay, it's that you don't really need any strategy to use Swagplay successfully. Another user a few pages back showed how he got suspect reqs simply by following an if-else formula while using a Swagplay team. No forethought, no prediction, he didn't even switch. All he did was use a simple formula.

It requires zero skill to use Swagplay successfully, and because it's entirely luck based with the odds in the Swagplay user's favour if he combines Swagplay with paralysis, it's uncompetitive and against the spirit of the game.

Edit: here's his RMT- http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/it’s-swaggerificc.3499572/#post-5223529

 

[Allarric]

This set is pretty annoying. I used to run it on my Spike setting Klefki to force people into dumb situations so i could get the upper hand, until someone had a team full of mons using this exact strategy. After that i shied away from it. Banning swagger or Banning Swagger( or any confusing move) + Prankster is most likely the best way to go on this one, Klefki is still a nice Suicide lead, so tossing him out just for this one set would be a bit unnecessary.

 

[Thorhammer]

We didn't ban Swords Dance + Lucarionite, or anything else like that. Lucarionite was a powerful item that allowed you to use broken sets, and instead of banning those sets, we banned Lucarionite entirely.

The problem here inherently rests on Swagger, or confusion in general. We should ban the undesired moves, not arbitrarily restrict ourselves to just the complex situation where they become such a problem. We have nothing to gain from keeping Swagger allowed. Absolutely nothing.

 

[Ajwf]

*You have nothing to gain.

Which is why you want to ban it. That's really a baseless argument.

 

[PellOfTheTundra]

We didn't ban Swords Dance + Lucarionite, or anything else like that. Lucarionite was a powerful item that allowed you to use broken sets, and instead of banning those sets, we banned Lucarionite entirely.

The problem here inherently rests on Swagger, or confusion in general. We should ban the undesired moves, not arbitrarily restrict ourselves to just the complex situation where they become such a problem. We have nothing to gain from keeping Swagger allowed. Absolutely nothing.

The problem with that is MegaLucario was a problem even unboosted, albeit not as much, and nothing else used Lucarionite. It literally has one user, so the effects are not as widespread as Prankster or Swagger. There are Pokemon that legitimately use Swagger and are not broken. There are not, however, Lucarionite users other than Mega Lucario, who was deemed too powerful, even at +0, for the OU metagame. Neither Swagger nor Prankster are broken on their own -- only potentially in tandem with one another.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

*You have nothing to gain.

Which is why you want to ban it. That's really a baseless argument.

How is that baseless? We've already established swagger is not helping the metagame in ANY way. If anything your short comment that didn't contribute to this thread in any way is "baseless".we have literally nothing to gain from swagger as he said

 

[CaptainSteve]

SwagPlay is a tricky situation. As has been said, it's luck based. However, it's also most likely going to work and it's going to hurt.

Ban Swagger

 

[Ajwf]

I'm sorry, I contributed a good deal pages back. The thread has done nothing but shitpost since. I simply wished to correct a fallacy of believing what is good for one is good for all. Banning all forms of confusion has yet to be shown to be 'good for all' and therefore the burden of proof rests upon you and those wishing to ban all confusion to prove it is such.

 

[PellOfTheTundra]

How is that baseless? We've already established swagger is not helping the metagame in ANY way. If anything your short comment that didn't contribute to this thread in any way is "baseless".we have literally nothing to gain from swagger as he said

When was this widely agreed upon? I never agreed upon that. Swagger makes some pokemon viable where they otherwise are not. However, in tandem with a certain ability, it can be bad for the game. You are taking your opinion as fact and acting as though we all agree with you, which I, for one, do not.

 

[Sinning]

Swagger or prankster is what needs to go in my opinion. On one hand, there are "legitimate" prankster users, but to me, they are only slightly more fair than swagger + thunder wave. On the other hand, swagger seems to be the more easy, clear-cut, and least disruptive ban we could make. It really serves no purpose outside of this uncompetitive "strategy."

It is uncompetitive by definition, giving out wins and losses that offer little to no interactivity between players outside of player 2 switching constantly to avoid confusion damage, and it has little to no risk for the user. It is unfair, and removing it would make the laddering experience more pleasant, and would remove users who do not earn their rating through actual play.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

When was this widely agreed upon? I never agreed upon that. Swagger makes some pokemon viable where they otherwise are not. However, in tandem with a certain ability, it can be bad for the game. You are taking your opinion as fact and acting as though we all agree with you, which I, for one, do not.

tell me one thing that legitimately uses swagger not in conjunction with prankster. I'm sorry for being so offensive earlier, but the point still stands swagger/confuse ray isn't used competitively unless its used with prankster, which most people tend to find uncompetitive.

 

[Timpsu]

Well, someone did bring up Swagger + Foul Play Umbreon earlier. Although not the best tactic for Umbreon, I guess it goes to the bracket of a somewhat competitive build, and I wouldn't even say that build would be hard to deal with. There could be some use to Swagger outside of Pranksters. That's why I think the complex ban is the best option. Then again, some fast Pokemon could be able to pull the same kind of sets, take Deoxys-S for example. It's hard for me to say right now if that is exactly the same as Prankster SwagPlay, but I think the complex ban could be a sufficient one.

 

[PellOfTheTundra]

tell me one thing that legitimately uses swagger not in conjunction with prankster. I'm sorry for being so offensive earlier, but the point still stands swagger/confuse ray isn't used competitively unless its used with prankster, which most people tend to find uncompetitive.

Umbreon can use it as a way to supplement its poor damage output or give it time to set up, Mandibuzz can use it as a way to boost its damage and psuedo-phaze the opponent, and there are other options. Sure, it isn't standard on everything, but it isn't broken unless in tandem with Prankster. Name one gamebreaking set that has only one or the other on it- I dare you. You'll struggle. The closest thing you will find is Thundurus-I, which is why I mention him so much, as he is the only Prankster user that can be considered anywhere close to broken even IF Prankster+Swagger is banned.

 

[Toljik]

tell me one thing that legitimately uses swagger not in conjunction with prankster. I'm sorry for being so offensive earlier, but the point still stands swagger/confuse ray isn't used competitively unless its used with prankster, which most people tend to find uncompetitive.

Here's a list of non-Prankster users who use confusion moves a significant (5 or more percent) of the time.

Umbreon: Uses Swagger or Confuse Ray 15% of the time.
Zygarde: Uses Swagger 5% of the time in Ubers.
Weavile: Uses Swagger 8% of the time.
Quagsire: Uses Swagger 5% of the time in Ubers.
Trevenant: Uses Confuse Ray 5.6% of the time.
Crobat: Uses Confuse Ray 10% of the time.
Ninetales: Uses Confuse Ray 11% of the time.
Milotic: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Dusclops: Uses Confuse Ray 12% of the time.
Gourgeist-Super: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Xatu: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Froslass: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Bronzong: Uses Confuse Ray 8.6% of the time.
Lanturn: Uses Confuse Ray 19% of the tine,
Spiritomb: Uses Confuse Ray 15% of the time.

I won't pretend that all those Pokemon are viable in OU, or that 10% is a huge percentage. But this is a ban that will affect every tier, even ones that don't exist yet, and when so many Pokemon will be affected, that 10% adds up.

 

[PellOfTheTundra]

Here's a list of non-Prankster users who use confusion moves a significant (5 or more percent) of the time.

Umbreon: Uses Swagger or Confuse Ray 15% of the time.
Zygarde: Uses Swagger 5% of the time in Ubers.
Weavile: Uses Swagger 8% of the time.
Quagsire: Uses Swagger 5% of the time in Ubers.
Trevenant: Uses Confuse Ray 5.6% of the time.
Crobat: Uses Confuse Ray 10% of the time.
Ninetales: Uses Confuse Ray 11% of the time.
Milotic: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Dusclops: Uses Confuse Ray 12% of the time.
Gourgeist-Super: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Xatu: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Froslass: Uses Confuse Ray 6% of the time.
Bronzong: Uses Confuse Ray 8.6% of the time.
Lanturn: Uses Confuse Ray 19% of the tine,
Spiritomb: Uses Confuse Ray 15% of the time.

I won't pretend that all those Pokemon are viable in OU, or that 10% is a huge percentage. But this is a ban that will affect every tier, even ones that don't exist yet, and when so many Pokemon will be affected, that 10% adds up.

I legitimately forgot about Lanturn, who loses a lot of utility with Confusion bans. Also, I used a Confuse Ray Spiritomb in generation 5, and I know Ninetales uses it a lot on more defensive sets.